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Author Topic: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games  (Read 42229 times)

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Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #425 on: August 29, 2011, 07:25:24 PM »
The dice have a nice system for determining actions. Each one has a different profile and one of the really nice things is the stance system. You can replace attribute dice with stance dice, either conservative(very likely to succeed, but can also delay your action) or reckless(you might have bad things happen, but if you succeed you will succeed by a lot).

The other aspects of it that I really like are character advancement(each session a character gains one advance and typically characters grow in breadth before depth.) and the action system which makes a purely mental/social character not a complete combat liability due to leadership techniques or distraction actions.


I haven't actually played any non-homebrew free rpgs so I can't really comment there. Though the homebrew system games I've been a part of have been good for the most part.
Yeah, that and the "you get storytelling material from the dice you rolled" assertion are exactly what I'm talking about. I get the very same things from ORE or Savage worlds, not to mention MRQ2.
So, the question is how switching over from one of them would improve my games ;D.

Online ExisD

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #426 on: August 29, 2011, 07:42:59 PM »
Yeah, that and the "you get storytelling material from the dice you rolled" assertion are exactly what I'm talking about. I get the very same things from ORE or Savage worlds, not to mention MRQ2.
So, the question is how switching over from one of them would improve my games ;D.

Ahh, I don't know either of those systems so I can't really say.

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #427 on: August 30, 2011, 11:59:40 AM »
Ahh, I don't know either of those systems so I can't really say.
You should try them, though >:)!

Online ExisD

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #428 on: August 30, 2011, 03:05:01 PM »
You should try them, though >:)!

I've only heard of Savage Worlds before and typically have to introduce new systems to my group. How hard is it to GM without previous playing knowledge?

In another topic: how does everyone else deal with the problem of variably optimized parties? Not just combat, in something like Exalted a good social spec can simply take over anything they want.

I've usually simply made different challenges to keep everyone engaged and given suggestions to people who are lagging behind. But I've had issues with having min/maxers and max/miners in the same game before.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #429 on: August 30, 2011, 03:12:07 PM »
In another topic: how does everyone else deal with the problem of variably optimized parties? Not just combat, in something like Exalted a good social spec can simply take over anything they want.

If you're playing Exalted, don't make the game about 'how do I stop my players?'  Make it about how they use their power and what that means to them and the world around them.  Like Superman, Exalted lend themselves well to stories about morality.  Make the story about the consequences of the things the characters do instead of what they achieve in the first place.  Exalted falls apart in stories that are meant to follow the more traditional path of just beating up progressively bigger bad guys.

In general, though, just encourage the people who are not well-optimized to re-optimize to be on par with the rest of the party.  Optimization is just one of those things where the games work better if everyone is on the same page, no different from any thematic or setting element in that regard.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #430 on: August 30, 2011, 03:38:20 PM »
In another topic: how does everyone else deal with the problem of variably optimized parties? Not just combat, in something like Exalted a good social spec can simply take over anything they want.

I've usually simply made different challenges to keep everyone engaged and given suggestions to people who are lagging behind. But I've had issues with having min/maxers and max/miners in the same game before.
I understand where you are coming from here. It was a legitimate concern with me at first too. While I dislike the assumption Meikle got from it with the "How do I stop my players" cause I know that isn't what you meant, she gave some good advice. When Morality comes into play, people have to think about what they are doing. Also, for the social specced, he/she isn't the only person like that in the world. One thing often forgotten about in the setting is that it has a power level that can deal with the characters playing in it. If you aren't being true to that, then players will get out of hand. Abuse is something that is an issue with any game, most of the time there is an easily overlooked built in fail safe for it.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #431 on: August 30, 2011, 03:47:14 PM »
"Stop" might have been the wrong word to use, but unless you start pulling out world-slaying terrors, it can be hard to directly challenge, say, Solar Exalted.  A starting Solar can be sitting at the border of 'invincible' and can reach 'essentially unstoppable without houserules or fiat' really quickly.  When you have characters like that (imho), it becomes less interesting to just try to challenge them traditionally, and more interesting to make the game focus on other things -- morality, relationships, consequences.

If you want to take the social character example, with Exalted, maybe it's interesting to look at the consequences of someone who has no real friends on their own merits, only people they've mind controlled into loving them.  Or how negatively the rest of the world reacts to seeing a nation's will crushed beneath the force of their personality, things like that.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #432 on: August 30, 2011, 04:03:28 PM »
"Stop" might have been the wrong word to use, but unless you start pulling out world-slaying terrors, it can be hard to directly challenge, say, Solar Exalted.  A starting Solar can be sitting at the border of 'invincible' and can reach 'essentially unstoppable without houserules or fiat' really quickly.  When you have characters like that (imho), it becomes less interesting to just try to challenge them traditionally, and more interesting to make the game focus on other things -- morality, relationships, consequences.

If you want to take the social character example, with Exalted, maybe it's interesting to look at the consequences of someone who has no real friends on their own merits, only people they've mind controlled into loving them.  Or how negatively the rest of the world reacts to seeing a nation's will crushed beneath the force of their personality, things like that.
If I caught ExisD's point correctly, then you are misunderstanding something. I pretty much agree with all you have said beside skirting the edge of invincibility with a starting level Solar. (If that was the case, the bull of the north would have already conquered the world and not be in the somewhat awkward situation he is currently in, especially since the stats given are about 10 years old from the Terrestrial Directions north's diagnosis.)What at-least I seen was the person that minmaxes for the sake of doing it, and power games without giving sight to the moral consequences. They literally don't care.

These are what I like to call problem players. And even really good friends that never 'usually' do this can turn into one on a bad day. Typically, I handle them by showing em what they are doing in the game world in a normal session, and mellowing them out with the consequences. Occasionally, like on any game, I have to end up just doing what would be done; just killing the character. On Exalted, for example, it's stated in the books that quite a few Exalts end up dying every day. The assumptions are that the players aren't one of these, that their goals and motivations are more driven, true, and special. If they change that, then they have changed that... Simple as that.

For instance I had a vampire game on WoD start to turn ugly. The players were beginning to act like supernaturally imbued idiots that didn't have to worry about the masquerade or anything else because they had minmaxed themselves. It was 'Go charge my blood batteries, and get back to raising havoc.' And when they decided to try and turn the session into a bad game of grand theft auto by shooting it out with the police, a situation I had read about in a source book that I never thought would actually come up did; and so I took the advice given, and just killed the players. They were upset, but eventually realized what was going on; and the next Chronicle didn't have those issues.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #433 on: August 30, 2011, 04:24:01 PM »
ExisD said she's got min/maxers and not-min/maxers in the same group and has trouble running for that kind of mixed group ... that's the only assumption I was working from.

My advice in that situation is to not worry about challenging the min/maxed characters; there are other, equally-or-more interesting ways to handle this.  If challenges in the physical or social realm are important to the players, though, my advice is to make one set of players dial back, or make the others catch up, because the differences in capability can make 'hardly a challenge' for one character into 'you will die' for another.


As an aside, the Bull of the North is not excellently optimized for invincibility!  Here is a spoiler with a starting build that is borderline immortal at chargen, though:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
strength 5, dex 5, dodge 5, integrity 1, resistance 4, athletics 5; Essence 3; Adamant Skin Technique (and prereqs), Shadow Over Water, Seven Shadow Evasion, Reflex Sidestep Technique, Leaping Dodge Method, Integrity Protecting Prana, Lightspeed Body Dynamics

Combo: Shadow Over Water, Seven Shadow Evasion, Adamant Skin Technique, Reflex Sidestep Technique, Leaping Dodge Method, Integrity Protecting Prana

Combat Strategy: every morning when you wake up, immediately activate Integrity Protecting Prana to be immune to all shaping effects for the rest of the day.
when someone attacks you, if you can you reliably dodge (the dice pool is 14 or fewer dice), do nothing.  if you successfully dodge, regain essence (1+stunt).  if you don't, activate your combo and Adamant Skin Technique to perfectly soak.
if someone attacks you with a Charm that will hurt you on a hit even if it deals no health levels of damage, activate your combo and Seven Shadow Evasion to perfectly dodge.
if someone attacks you with an unexpected attack, activate your combo and Reflex Sidestep Technique and proceed from the beginning.

activate Leaping Dodge Method in response to being attacked by major threats (ie those who are not cost-efficient to defend against). kill people with your bow.  never fight people in tiny rooms.
always respond to social combat by joining battle.
run away when a fight isn't going your way.

learn and add Soaring Crane Leap to the combo asap (possible with the first 5 xp you earn if you take it at chargen)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 04:28:31 PM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #434 on: August 30, 2011, 04:35:30 PM »
ExisD said she's got min/maxers and not-min/maxers in the same problem and has trouble running for that kind of mixed group ... that's the only assumption I was working from.

My advice in that situation is to not worry about challenging the min/maxed characters; there are other, equally-or-more interesting ways to handle this.  If challenges in the physical or social realm are important to the players, though, my advice is to make one set of players dial back, or make the others catch up, because the differences in capability can make 'hardly a challenge' for one character into 'you will die' for another.


As an aside, the Bull of the North is not excellently optimized for invincibility!  Here is a spoiler with a starting build that is borderline immortal at chargen, though:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
strength 5, dex 5, dodge 5, integrity 1, resistance 4, athletics 5; Essence 3; Adamant Skin Technique (and prereqs), Shadow Over Water, Seven Shadow Evasion, Reflex Sidestep Technique, Leaping Dodge Method, Integrity Protecting Prana, Lightspeed Body Dynamics

Combo: Shadow Over Water, Seven Shadow Evasion, Adamant Skin Technique, Reflex Sidestep Technique, Leaping Dodge Method, Integrity Protecting Prana

Combat Strategy: every morning when you wake up, immediately activate Integrity Protecting Prana to be immune to all shaping effects for the rest of the day.
when someone attacks you, if you can you reliably dodge (the dice pool is 14 or fewer dice), do nothing.  if you successfully dodge, regain essence (1+stunt).  if you don't, activate your combo and Adamant Skin Technique to perfectly soak.
if someone attacks you with a Charm that will hurt you on a hit even if it deals no health levels of damage, activate your combo and Seven Shadow Evasion to perfectly dodge.
if someone attacks you with an unexpected attack, activate your combo and Reflex Sidestep Technique and proceed from the beginning.

always activate Leaping Dodge Method in response to being attacked and kill people with your bow.  never fight people in tiny rooms.
That's why I said that if your assumption was correct, then the advice was golden. As for the build, two huge flaws that made me cringe as a solo 'invincible' Low integrity, making them utterly susceptible to unnatural mental influence, and then the lack of war dots. At first glance, that's awesome; till you read the mass combat section and learn that a solo units can't even act against a mob without minimum one dot in war. And then they aren't very effective. Also, it's maxed generally for one on one combat. Anything fighting a Solar is likely jumping them; and without losing face on their honor. Anathema are known to be incredibly powerful. Though the war part only matters for the wyld hunt, if they make themselves that known then it's gonna happen from either Lookshy or the realm. It's just part of the game, and a fun one.

I go by how the book says to handle it. Mixture of setting detail, ST's section(from all the books I've read so far), and some common sense have handled it fine. A single solar isn't much at starting, it's a whole circle working in cohesion that makes them so powerful and seemingly invincible. I think this is somewhat thematic to the setting, since lone solar are often depicted in the comics being pretty much torn apart when they face serious enemies.

Online ExisD

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #435 on: August 30, 2011, 04:40:34 PM »
Sorry, I should've been more specific. But thank you for the advice. Much of it I do already do, in particular my entire campaign is based off logical consequences of PC actions.

The big problem I had was about players who's characters are in the same role. One of whom heavily optimized and is actually eclipsing two characters played by people who made rather poor decisions in their primary area of focus.

for Exalted it was one player making an invincible sword princess-twilight essence reactor(for those who know big exalted builds) who also had very powerful social charms. And the other two, one of whom decided to do solar hero style with strength and stamina and dumped dex. The other completely ignored combat and took a bunch of charms from each social skill. The first player outdid them without meaning to because he simply recognized which charms/options were more useful and the others just took stuff that seemed cool.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 04:41:43 PM by ExisD »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #436 on: August 30, 2011, 04:46:25 PM »
Sorry, I should've been more specific. But thank you for the advice. Much of it I do already do, in particular my entire campaign is based off logical consequences of PC actions.

The big problem I had was about players who's characters are in the same role. One of whom heavily optimized and is actually eclipsing two characters played by people who made rather poor decisions in their primary area of focus.

for Exalted it was one player making an invincible sword princess-twilight essence reactor(for those who know big exalted builds) who also had very powerful social charms. And the other two, one of whom decided to do solar hero style with strength and stamina and dumped dex. The other completely ignored combat and took a bunch of charms from each social skill. The first player outdid them without meaning to because he simply recognized which charms/options were more useful and the others just took stuff that seemed cool.
Isn't that more of a problem with the other two making poor choices rather then the other 'minmaxing'? I think Meikle was right there, you should have pointed out a little of what they were doing. I think one of the issues is that you can't challenge the one without killing the other two, right?

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #437 on: August 30, 2011, 04:52:18 PM »
The character initiates combat as soon as someone tries to begin social combat (join battle overrides join debate).  Then she flees or kills them, I imagine.

With 5 xp and the addition of Soaring Crane Leap to the Combo, it will be very difficult to keep up with this character, let alone pin her down with an army, when she's moving at an average of 75 feet/second (and responds to any attack against her by moving 180 feet in the other direction instantly).  Again, this character is built to survive, not to fight.  Having to run away isn't a flaw. :p

It's not perfectly invulnerable, for sure, but it's only nine xp away from having reliable social immunity to (which is a big one Charm purchase against hostile social attacks).

Quote
twilight essence reactor(for those who know big exalted builds)

if you're still running this thing, it might be worthwhile to make sure you're using the latest errata.  twilight essence reactors were hit pretty hard.

unfortunately, one of the big problems with the Exalted system is that some builds are just a lot better than others, and it's easy to unintentionally create a character who sounds like they should be excellent but are subpar in practice.  in this kind of situation, just helping the players who fell behind rework their builds to function at a more desirable level seems like the thing to do.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 05:05:34 PM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #438 on: August 30, 2011, 05:06:56 PM »
The character initiates combat as soon as someone tries to begin social combat (join battle overrides join debate).

With 5 xp and the addition of Soaring Crane Leap to the Combo, it will be very difficult to keep up with this character, let alone pin her down with an army, when she's moving at an average of 75 feet/second (and responds to any attack against her by moving 180 feet in the other direction instantly).  Again, this character is built to survive, not to fight.  Having to run away isn't a flaw. :p

It's not perfectly invulnerable, for sure, but it's only nine xp away from having reliable social immunity to (which is a big one Charm purchase against hostile social attacks).

if you're still running this thing, it might be worthwhile to make sure you're using the latest errata.  twilight essence reactors were hit pretty hard.

unfortunately, one of the big problems with the Exalted system is that some builds are just a lot better than others, and it's easy to unintentionally create a character who sounds like they should be excellent but are subpar in practice.  in this kind of situation, just helping the players who fell behind rework their builds to function at a more desirable level seems like the thing to do.
Very well put, but my point still stands; they aren't gonna be invulnerable. If they have to run, then you are challenging them by making them go through that act and dealing with what comes from it. A lot of things can happen while leaping, terrain changes to deal with and what not. Especially if a few enemies get a vehicle to catch up to you, assuming you are being chased by creatures capable of using them. To me, that's a challenge; it's not all about fighting the big baddies. That's why I like white wolf games, they emphasis this.

Offline meikle

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #439 on: August 30, 2011, 05:15:45 PM »
There's always consequences!  It's probably the most important theme of Exalted.  Did you flee Thorns instead of staying to fight?  Well ... you're still alive and unharmed, but your friends and family are zombies now!

I'd question the motives of an ST who starts the first session of a game by throwing out Exalted threats in First Age vehicles, though!  I don't play Exalted, personally, to make a character who excels in a given area just to have the ST focus on how to prove that they can get around my strengths (and it's also how I run my games.)  In most situations, if someone is combat-focused, then I assume they want their character to be awesome at doing combat and will let them shine in being a combat expert.  When someone shows up who can meaningfully challenge the Sword Princess in a duel, it'll be a major plot point.

Similarly, if someone makes a character whose entire build is 'doesn't die', I'm not going to immediately focus the entire game on killing that character and trying to prove that my NPCs are better at their focus! :p


But, conclusively, when I say they're invulnerable, I mean they're going to be incredibly difficult to murder, not that they're above consequences or beyond reproach or anything like that.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 05:18:08 PM by meikle »

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #440 on: August 30, 2011, 05:21:16 PM »
There's always consequences!  It's probably the most important theme of Exalted.  Did you flee Thorns instead of staying to fight?  Well ... you're still alive and unharmed, but your friends and family are zombies now!

I'd question the motives of an ST who starts the first session of a game by throwing out Exalted threats in First Age vehicles, though!  I don't play Exalted, personally, to make a character who excels in a given area just to have the ST focus on how to prove that they can get around my strengths (and it's also how I run my games.)  In most situations, if someone is combat-focused, then I assume they want their character to be awesome at doing combat and will let them shine in being a combat expert.  When someone shows up who can meaningfully challenge the Sword Princess in a duel, it'll be a major plot point.

Similarly, if someone makes a character whose entire build is 'doesn't die', I'm not going to immediately focus the entire game on killing that character and trying to prove that my NPCs are better at their focus! :p


But, conclusively, when I say they're invulnerable, I mean they're going to be incredibly difficult to murder, not that they're above consequences or beyond reproach or anything like that.
I don't do that, I simply go with what the antagonists would have. A single vehicle ran by dragon blooded isn't an incredible first age device, it's usually something that can simply allow them to catch the target if her powers are known about. It still can only hold a small group, probably one DB and a handful of mortals. This just makes the game more interesting then 'I run away', it turns into "I Evaded the wyld hunt, fleeing till their numbers consisted of a paltry sum that I bested, and in doing so weakened my foolish pursuers."

Online ExisD

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #441 on: August 30, 2011, 08:23:11 PM »
Honestly, I throw a ton of low dot magi-tech into my Exalted games. Usually it's used by the Wyld Hunt and various noble houses. The crafting rolls are easy to do and the usefulness of things like vehicles or even just Essence Cannons and grenades is too high for people to not use them. I sort of disagree with the writers about each artifact being a truly unique piece of craftsmanship that deserves it's own legacy, I leave that for 3 or more dot artifacts. Instead I see the Shogunate having mass produced a ton of basic weapons and armor for its soldiers. Most of which along with the techniques, though not the giant forges, last to the modern day.

And the build problem isn't when someone's build is don't die. It's when their build is 'don't die and kill everything and be able to use sorcery and be able to out social everything'.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #442 on: August 30, 2011, 08:26:18 PM »
Honestly, I throw a ton of low dot magi-tech into my Exalted games. Usually it's used by the Wyld Hunt and various noble houses. The crafting rolls are easy to do and the usefulness of things like vehicles or even just Essence Cannons and grenades is too high for people to not use them. I sort of disagree with the writers about each artifact being a truly unique piece of craftsmanship that deserves it's own legacy, I leave that for 3 or more dot artifacts. Instead I see the Shogunate having mass produced a ton of basic weapons and armor for its soldiers. Most of which along with the techniques, though not the giant forges, last to the modern day.

And the build problem isn't when someone's build is don't die. It's when their build is 'don't die and kill everything and be able to use sorcery and be able to out social everything'.
Kinda how I see the artifacts, and how they mix them up in other books. They can't really make up their minds author to author. xD Low dot artifacts are awesome, and really add to the drama of the game. Though mine are typically VERY over the top. Still, not seeing the build thing; though I'm usually playing with a bunch of flaming power gamers. So I might just be use to dealing with it, and it seems normal to me. >_>

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #443 on: August 30, 2011, 08:37:32 PM »
Kinda how I see the artifacts, and how they mix them up in other books. They can't really make up their minds author to author. xD Low dot artifacts are awesome, and really add to the drama of the game. Though mine are typically VERY over the top. Still, not seeing the build thing; though I'm usually playing with a bunch of flaming power gamers. So I might just be use to dealing with it, and it seems normal to me. >_>

I'm used to that too. So when someone just buys up to solar hero form, an ox body, and shadow over water for their "heavy combat character" it throws me for a loop. I suggested seven shadow evasion, but he didn't have the xp left for dodge 5 and didn't think it was important.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #444 on: August 30, 2011, 08:39:25 PM »
I'm used to that too. So when someone just buys up to solar hero form, an ox body, and shadow over water for their "heavy combat character" it throws me for a loop. I suggested seven shadow evasion, but he didn't have the xp left for dodge 5 and didn't think it was important.
I'm use to Melee types that focus on parries. That's the typical Dawn in my group. Sounds bad at first, and I thought it would suck; but he wades through things sometimes without a scratch when using bulwark stance. Then add heavenly guardian defense in there, and it gets a little bad with the combos. Ripping up people with massive stunts, and then parrying nearly every strike at him without even taking any amount of DV penalties.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 08:40:55 PM by Black Howling »

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #445 on: August 30, 2011, 08:42:52 PM »
I'm use to Melee types that focus on parries. That's the typical Dawn in my group. Sounds bad at first, and I thought it would suck; but he wades through things sometimes without a scratch when using bulwark stance. Then add heavenly guardian defense in there, and it gets a little bad with the combos.

That's about what I'm used to for combat Solars. I've actually been running DB/Infernal games more to avoid some of these problems. Though Infernals opens an even worse can of worms: cheap tick long and especially action long perfects make for a boring game.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #446 on: August 30, 2011, 08:47:08 PM »
That's about what I'm used to for combat Solars. I've actually been running DB/Infernal games more to avoid some of these problems. Though Infernals opens an even worse can of worms: cheap tick long and especially action long perfects make for a boring game.
I didn't have too many troubles with it after a while. Now at first I was like. "O_O WTF!? How is he doing this!!!??" Then I got to where I could roll with it, and throw it back for a great and fun scene. Though admittedly, I love running Solars, but hate playing them. Not hate, I just much prefer Dragonblooded.

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #447 on: August 30, 2011, 08:50:38 PM »
I didn't have too many troubles with it after a while. Now at first I was like. "O_O WTF!? How is he doing this!!!??" Then I got to where I could roll with it, and throw it back for a great and fun scene. Though admittedly, I love running Solars, but hate playing them. Not hate, I just much prefer Dragonblooded.

Provided the GM is willing to make Spectral not an absolutely crippling weakness I actually really like playing Abyssals. Though I think DBs were the most fun to run for. My players came up with a ton of custom teamwork charms that make it possible for them to be an elite Wyld Hunt unit that actually succeeded by working together.

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #448 on: August 30, 2011, 09:04:14 PM »
Provided the GM is willing to make Spectral not an absolutely crippling weakness I actually really like playing Abyssals. Though I think DBs were the most fun to run for. My players came up with a ton of custom teamwork charms that make it possible for them to be an elite Wyld Hunt unit that actually succeeded by working together.
Abyssals, I love abyssals. Though that's mainly because they remind me so much of some of my first story characters. Very cool. 

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #449 on: August 30, 2011, 10:24:09 PM »
Provided the GM is willing to make Spectral not an absolutely crippling weakness I actually really like playing Abyssals. Though I think DBs were the most fun to run for. My players came up with a ton of custom teamwork charms that make it possible for them to be an elite Wyld Hunt unit that actually succeeded by working together.

play with the errata!