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Author Topic: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games  (Read 42209 times)

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Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #250 on: July 22, 2011, 02:15:07 PM »
Guys, not sure about oWoD, but in GURPS, "fear of kumquats" is worth exactly zero points if it's not going to come up, and I find that a good policy.
Also, most people assume that in GURPS, the assumption is that you will take disadvantages up to your limit. Not having them is simply the equivalent of buying an advantage, because you have less things hindering you.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #251 on: July 22, 2011, 02:20:03 PM »
I remember in the oWoD, -everyone- took 7 points worth of flaws just for the 7 (maximum) extra freebies.

Offline Healergirl

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #252 on: July 22, 2011, 02:50:06 PM »
traits, now, those are an interesting idea, they can give a little spice to a character.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #253 on: July 22, 2011, 02:59:08 PM »
LA buyoff isn't a bad idea in my opinion, though like anything LA it's highly dependent on the group whether it is okay or not. Traits were a cool bit of spice, but sometimes they added too much extra clunk. Something I really liked though as fractional BAB and saving throws. It made multiclassing and the like a lot easier. Action points were also neat, though like a lot of extra options they sometimes added a bit too much clunk.

All in all, I liked the unearthed Arcana. But some things were better left untouched. Good ideas, but bad presentation.

Offline ofDelusions

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #254 on: July 22, 2011, 03:00:35 PM »
Here's a Pathfinder specific topic.

Wizards and Sorcerers.  Is one superior to the other?  Have you ever role-played one as being all arrogantly superior to the others?  I've played Wizards who were convinced that Sorcerers were second class magic users.

"Of course Wizards are better!  Not only do we have a far wider variety of spells we can cast, but honestly... we actually had to work for our magic.  We had to research and devote our entire lives to becoming the arcane gods that we are today.  Not like Sorcerers... no, they just get their magic without any work.  It just comes to them.  They're like the grasshopper and we're the ant, only for some reason their laziness still nets them an arcane reward.  How fair is that?"

"A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater. "

Well, I do not knwo who is better in pathfinder, since I don't play it, but in regular 3.5 I dislike prepared casters and so always go for sorcerer (and hey, access to awesome sorcerer only spells!)

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #255 on: July 22, 2011, 03:07:49 PM »
Action points were also neat, though like a lot of extra options they sometimes added a bit too much clunk.

Hero Points for the win!  Pathfinder APG.

"A wizard being called a sorcerer is sort of like having a PhD and someone telling you that you only managed to graduate because you have natural talent.

A wizard being called a warlock is like having a PhD and being told you only managed to graduate because you gave the dean a quickie in the alley behind the movie theater. "

Well, I do not knwo who is better in pathfinder, since I don't play it, but in regular 3.5 I dislike prepared casters and so always go for sorcerer (and hey, access to awesome sorcerer only spells!)

I don't remember there being any spells that were Sorcerer only in 3.5.

Offline Black Howling

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #256 on: July 22, 2011, 03:13:07 PM »
Hero Points for the win!  Pathfinder APG.

I don't remember there being any spells that were Sorcerer only in 3.5.
Some supplements added them. Especially the Variant sorcerer presented by Malhavic press. It was just a tad higher then the wizard in many regards, but the wizards versatility and ability to cast spells the sorcerer didn't have access to was supposed to make up for it. The sorcerer had a reduced spell list, focusing on things that would be casts multiple times in a day.

I believe it also came about in some of the other books. And I have been looking over hero points lately, and wondering if they are gonna be worth messing with.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #257 on: July 22, 2011, 03:26:35 PM »

I don't remember there being any spells that were Sorcerer only in 3.5.

There were a few, in the later books after they realized Sorcerers needed a leg up. Some excellent ones, too - Wings of Flurry was one of the best blasting spells in 3.5, Wings of Cover was a defensive spell that remained relevant all the way to level 20, and Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion were a hamhanded if effective way of fixing the Sorc's lack of ability to quicken spells.


As for UA:
Traits - fun idea and sometimes nice, but 3.5 didn't need more fiddly +1 bonuses to keep track of.
LA Buyoff - another good idea, but hard to implement; it turned LA from the kiss of character death into something worth taking sometimes, but rarely saw play.
Fractional BAB/Saves were fantastic for multiclassing, an should have been a core rule.
I never played with Hero Points, Reputation, Complex Skill Groups, or Weapon Groups.
Variant classes were very hit-or-miss...some were awful (Druid giving up Wildshape for Rage, WTF?), some were great (Cloistered Cleric for playing a cleric/priest who wasn't a Knight Templar in full plate, yes!)

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #258 on: July 23, 2011, 10:52:02 AM »
Quote
Maneuver Master (Archetype)
The maneuver master specializes in more complicated moves than simple damage-dealing strikes.
Bonus Feat: In addition to normal monk bonus feats, a maneuver master may select any Improved combat maneuver feat (such as Improved Overrun) as a bonus feat. At 6th level and above, he may select any Greater combat maneuver feat (such as Greater Grapple) as a bonus feat. At 10th level and above, he may select any maneuver Strike feat (such as Tripping Strike) as a bonus feat.
Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks. This ability replaces flurry of blows.
Maneuver Defense (Ex): At 3rd level, if a maneuver master has an Improved combat maneuver feat, any creature attempting that maneuver against the maneuver master provokes an attack of opportunity, even if it would not normally do so. This ability replaces still mind.
Reliable Maneuver (Ex): At 4th level, as a swift action, a maneuver master may spend 1 point from his ki pool before attempting a combat maneuver. He can roll his combat maneuver check for that maneuver twice and use the better result. This ability replaces slow fall.
Meditative Maneuver (Ex): At 5th level, as a swift action, a maneuver master can add his Wisdom modifier on any combat maneuver check he makes before the beginning of his next turn. He must choose which combat maneuver check to grant the bonus to before making the combat maneuver check. This ability replaces purity of body.
Sweeping Maneuver (Ex): At 11th level, a maneuver master can make two combat maneuvers as a standard action, as long as neither maneuver requires the maneuver master to move. He may perform two identical maneuvers against two adjacent enemies, or he may perform two different combat maneuvers against the same target. This ability replaces diamond body.
Whirlwind Maneuver (Ex): At 15th level, once per day as a full-round action, a maneuver master can attempt a single combat maneuver against every opponent he threatens, as long as the combat maneuver does not require movement. He makes a single combat maneuver check, and it applies to all targets. This ability replaces quivering palm.

Got that off the Paizo Blog, it's the teaser of a Monk archetype. The Maneuver Master. For those who like tripping, bull rushing, and all the other fun moves. :D

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #259 on: July 27, 2011, 04:46:02 PM »
Glee! Got my pre-order for Ultimate Combat coming.. yay! Downloading the pdf early

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #260 on: July 27, 2011, 04:53:56 PM »
It seems more and more that Paizo only reprinted the 3.5 monk in its horrifically awful lack of glory so that it existed as a chassis for them to stick sets of archetype alternate class features on it that actually work in synergy and are effective (Hungry Ghost, this Maneuver Master, etc.).

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #261 on: July 27, 2011, 04:56:59 PM »
I think the KI pool does a bit more in pathfinder, but compared to the other '2nd line' core classes from 3.5 (Fighter, Rogue and Sorcerer) they didn't get the same level of loving. It's REALLY easy to justify staying a Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer to 20th now.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #262 on: July 27, 2011, 05:01:52 PM »
Yeah, but the Monk always held a special pedestal to itself for being a class that was both weak (even relative to the other melee classes) and completely discombobulated in its class features (unarmed combat, super-speed, teleportation, touch of death, and....talking to your rosebushes? Wut?). PF's archtypes have gone an immense distance towards fixing the latter problem, and in the process doing a good chunk of repairs on the former (Hungry Ghost crit-fishers are scary, scary things if one of my friends is to be believed).

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #263 on: July 27, 2011, 05:18:08 PM »
I do like the new combat styles in Ultimate Combat for Monks.. you get some fun elemental focused ones.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #264 on: July 27, 2011, 05:42:51 PM »
What's in Ultimate Combat
Classes: The new ones: Gunslingers, Ninja and Samurai
Class Archetypes:
Alchemist Discoveries
Cavalier Orders
Inquisitor Inquisitions
Magus Arcana
Rogue Talents

Feats

Mastering Combat
-Eastern Weapons/Armor
-Firearms
-Gladiator Weapons
-Duels
-Performance Combat
-Siege Weaponry

Vehicles

Variant Rules
-Armor as Damage Reduction
-Called Shots
-Piecemeal Armor
-Wounds and Vigor

Spells

Appendix

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #265 on: July 27, 2011, 05:46:17 PM »
I wasn't expecting more Inquisitor Inquisitions...

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #266 on: July 27, 2011, 05:50:59 PM »
I wasn't expecting more Inquisitor Inquisitions...

No one EVER expects Inquisitor Inquisitions bwahahahaahahhaa.

 Monty Python - Spanish Inquisition Torture Scene

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #267 on: July 27, 2011, 08:45:09 PM »
Further update..

Monks get LOTS of style loving in the Ultimate Combat Feats. :D

Pick your style and have LOTS of fun with it.

Random Example.
Quote

Monkey Style (Combat, Style)
Your unarmed fighting style is nimble and unpredictable,
full of ground rolls and short leaps.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike,
Acrobatics 5 ranks, Climb 5 ranks.
Benefit: You add your Wisdom bonus on Acrobatics
checks. While using this style, you take no penalty on
melee attack rolls or to AC while prone. Further, you can
crawl and stand up from lying prone without provoking
attacks of opportunity, and you can stand up as a swift
action if you succeed at a DC 20 Acrobatics check.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and
AC against melee attacks while prone. Standing up is a
standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #268 on: July 27, 2011, 08:48:40 PM »
If I can finally make Hak Foo in-character, I will die happy.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #269 on: July 27, 2011, 09:09:16 PM »
If I can finally make Hak Foo in-character, I will die happy.

There are some really NASTY grappling tricks now.

Quote
Neckbreaker (Combat)
With a quick jerk, you snap an enemy’s neck.
Prerequisites: Bonebreaker, Greater Grapple, Improved
Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Jawbreaker, Stunning
Fist, Heal 12 ranks.
Benefit: If you have an opponent your size or smaller
helpless or pinned, after you initiate or maintain a grapple,
you can make a Stunning Fist attempt at a –5 penalty on the
attack roll. If you succeed, you wrench that opponent’s neck,
dealing 2d6 Strength or Dexterity damage. If the targeted
ability score is reduced to 0, any remaining damage is dealt
to that opponent’s Constitution score. A creature that is
immune to critical hits or that has no discernible head and
neck is immune to the effects of this feat.

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #270 on: July 27, 2011, 09:18:25 PM »
Most people look at the monk and expect it to be what it was in the Advanced D&D days - a hideously powerful combat focused class.  PF did not underpower the monk, they changed what the monk was.  For what it is, it is pretty much built just right for their own system.

I've been playing and running PF for quite a while, and I figured out how they balanced combat. 

3.5 casters pretty much ended all combats of their CR in one or two rounds. three if they're unlucky.  Rather than simply remove all the broken spells, they modified them to work at that power level only if the caster was focused on that type of magic and spell.  Then they pushed the full melee classes to that same level of capability - all the full melee classes can slaughter anythign of their CR in one or two rounds, three if they're unlucky.  Then they took the 3/4 BAB non-full casters (rogues, bards, and monks), and gave them more utility out of combat compared to the other two sets of classes (because even with spells a caster is no match for a skilled class at what that skilled class does), while making them weaker in direct combat....UNLESS they are directly helping another 3/4 non-full caster or backing up a full melee or full caster.  If you use 3/4 non-full casters together, say magus and monk, rogue and inquisitor, summoner and alchemist, etc., you are both combat capable and also more versatile than say, a Full caster and a melee class, or two full melee, or two full casters. 

Then they pulled another trick, and made CR actually matter.  CR=character level-character level wealth.  If you give a monster character level wealth, you have to add 2 to it's CR.  Then they made sure that anything over CR 10 either had a batch of immunities, or was the equivalent of a prestige classed, multiclassed character.  Fae are like Mystic Theurges, two spellcasting classes in one with their racial magic combined with magic.  Aberrations tend to fall into a similar category, with more debuffing plus full casting than double spellcasting.  Outsiders are Eldritch Knight material, while dragons are Eldrtich Knights  dialed up to about 13.

But, back to monks.  Monks are not full combat characters - they're 3/4 BAB characters.  With the abilities they have basically, they're designed to get anywhere, avoid getting removed from combat by damage, spell, poison, power, or any other ability that would ordinarily remove a character from combat, and get whatever they need to do done.  They can fight really well, if they get a full attack action, but really, their strength lies in versatility and mobility, rather than lethality.  their stunning fist combined with vital strike can cause lots of trouble, while their sheer movement abilities can make them part of the battlefield itself, gettign wherever they must be no matter what its in their way (to save someone who is about to die, to back up the rogue with a much needed flank, to stun a caster into insensibility to help out the party for a round so they can get into better positions, etc.).   Everyone is used to monks being the AD&D combat monsters they used to be, and they simply aren't that anymore.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #271 on: July 27, 2011, 09:28:42 PM »
*Remembers Oriental Adventures in AD&D and shudders*

Because anything "Eastern" has to be superior to normal "Western" themed content in just about -any- RPG.

*Remembers the big fanboy katana obsession from the 90s and shudders again*

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #272 on: July 27, 2011, 09:32:08 PM »
The problem was that 'not dying' wasn't really a character role, and that was the only thing Monks were good at for a long time. Through most of 3.5, they were just a disjointed heap of class features that either contradicted themselves (high speed+dependence on full attacking for damage+no pounce=disaster), were counterproductive (Diamond Soul was a bigger problem to party healers than enemy casters, and their 'Capstone' actually made them worse by making them untargetable by several useful buffs), or just plain weak (Slow Fall could be replaced entirely by a 2,000GP ring). They were championed as the 'caster-killer', but debuted with zero means of actually combating the typical caster defenses of flight/invisibility/miss chances/goons. Their dependence on multiple stats, moreso than any class except the Paladin, made them shine best in rolled-stat games with excellent luck, and lackluster in games with point-buy or lower dice rolls.

The general nerfing of casters and spells and buffing up of melee in PF helped with that, but the monk's problem has always been its status as the dumping ground for every kung-fu and wuxia movie trope of the past fifty years (seriously, what does talking to plants have to do with the ability to punch extra hard, turn incorporeal, and slow-fall?). PF's archetypes fix this by giving the monk variants synergistic and useful class features, and combined with that general pumping of combatants, finally making them a class that does their job and does it well.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 09:33:58 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #273 on: July 28, 2011, 08:08:42 AM »
*Remembers Oriental Adventures in AD&D and shudders*

Because anything "Eastern" has to be superior to normal "Western" themed content in just about -any- RPG.

*Remembers the big fanboy katana obsession from the 90s and shudders again*
Yeah, I always had lots of fun with the adherents of this particular obsession, too ;D.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #274 on: July 28, 2011, 08:45:49 AM »
But was true! Katanas could totally cut through tanks! I saw it on the internet!