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Author Topic: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games  (Read 42207 times)

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Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #175 on: July 15, 2011, 09:34:36 PM »
Why anti-magic fields?  A good archery-specced fighter could rip the hell out of almost any character I can think of, off hand.  Mages would be better off, though...or rogues.  Rogues can at least hide.

Well it would eat up most of his melee buffs/edges.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #176 on: July 16, 2011, 04:20:55 AM »
Yeah, but getting him in one is the trick. PF made it easier to use cross-class skills like UMD, but it's still difficult unless you've really tooled out for it (DC31 for a scroll of Antimagic Field) - and a mage voluntarily casting AMF would be suicidal when they could effortlessly tear him to shreds from a safe distance.

Offline Brandon

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #177 on: July 16, 2011, 05:01:31 AM »
Personally I think its fine for a player to have a trick like that in a character. If they want to tear something apart let them but dont make the 1 thing be the only thing in the encouter unless its like Demigorgon at the end of Savage tide (effectivly the end of the campaigh). That way he gets to feel really useful and the other players also get to feel really useful. Yes on occasion make him realize the weakness to his trick but neither should you exploit that weakness all the time

Now its time for a different topic. The Ennie's are coming up. In fact voting started yesterday so if you care at all I suggest going to www.ennie-awards.com and cast your vote

Now for another topic, what is everyones favorite RPGs outside of fantasy and why do you like them? Like cyberpunk, sci-fi, steam punk, post apocolyptic, super hero, etc

Cyberpunk: Shadowrun
Horror: New World of darkness
post apocolyptic: A tie between Rifts and Paranoia
Sci-fi: Tough one but I think the prize has to go to Rogue trader
Steampunk: Theres a steampunk RPG?
Urban: another tough one but its either New World of darkness or the Dresden files
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 06:37:53 AM by Brandon »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #178 on: July 16, 2011, 07:10:09 AM »
Steampunk: Theres a steampunk RPG?

Hells yeah - Iron Kingdoms forever, baby! ;D

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #179 on: July 16, 2011, 08:09:02 AM »
Now for another topic, what is everyones favorite RPGs outside of fantasy and why do you like them? Like cyberpunk, sci-fi, steam punk, post apocolyptic, super hero, etc

Cyberpunk: Shadowrun as well
Horror: Old World of Darkness setting, New WoD System
Post Apocolyptic: RIFTS is the only one I know of.  Paranoia isn't really a post apocalyptic game imo.
Sci-fi: Serenity
Steampunk: Not my genre.
Superhero:  Classic Marvel (the old TSR one)

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #180 on: July 16, 2011, 09:36:51 AM »

Cyberpunk: Shadowrun or Cyberpunk
Horror: Old World of Darkness (Vampre and/or Mage)
Post Apocolyptic: RIFTS. 
Sci-fi: Eclipse Phase
Steampunk: iron Kingdom. 
Superhero:  Classic Marvel or Mutants & Masterminds 2e

Offline Myrleena

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #181 on: July 16, 2011, 09:56:39 AM »
Cyberpunk: Hrrm...Shadowrun, because I have no clue on others.
Horror: Meh.
Post Apocolyptic: D20 Modern
Sci-Fi: Hero System
Steampunk: None (yet)
Superhero: Hero System
Fantasy: Anima: Beyond Fantasy & Pathfinder

Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #182 on: July 16, 2011, 09:57:58 AM »
Now its time for a different topic. The Ennie's are coming up. In fact voting started yesterday so if you care at all I suggest going to www.ennie-awards.com and cast your vote

Steampunk: Theres a steampunk RPG?
Voted for the Ennies already ;) .
Genres are harder...
But yes, there are plenty of steampunk RPGs. Now, define "steampunk" and we can tell you the one that's the closest match to what you want ;D!

Cyberpunk: Interlock Unlimited, a re-tooled Eclipse Phase or Tech Noir RPG.
Horror: Definitely Unknown Armies.
Post apocalyptic: Eclipse Phase for a post-apocalypse in space, or something like Apocalypse World.
Sci-fi: Blue Planet blows the contenders out of the water, even Traveller
Steampunk: Kerberos club or lady Blackbird, I guess.
Urban: Unisystem Witchcraft or Monsters and Other Childish Things.

Offline Brandon

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #183 on: July 16, 2011, 08:19:35 PM »
I dont really think I can define steampunk since Ive never really been in a steampunk styled game. I dont know what the genre entails so Im probably the last person to define it

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #184 on: July 16, 2011, 08:47:21 PM »
I would LOVE to play in an Eclipse Phase game.. but no one ever seems to want to play one here or on RPOL.

Offline Brandon

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #185 on: July 16, 2011, 10:06:38 PM »
What exactly is eclipse phase?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #186 on: July 16, 2011, 10:16:54 PM »
http://eclipsephase.com/

The Post-Singularity Sci-fi setting. Humanity has left Earth, abandoned really, in the wake of runaway Self-Evolving AIs called Titans. Who just.. vanished. The homeworld is a scorched ruin and humanity has moved out into the solar system. Effectively immortal, humanity is trying to find their way.


Offline Thufir Hawat

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #187 on: July 17, 2011, 01:27:09 AM »
I dont really think I can define steampunk since Ive never really been in a steampunk styled game. I dont know what the genre entails so Im probably the last person to define it
Definition is easy, then ;).
And I remember someone wanted to start a game of Unhallowed Metropolis on E. You could check whether it actually started and whether they would let you try, if you want to try it first-hand ;D.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #188 on: July 19, 2011, 07:55:58 AM »
Here's another topic.

Character Creation: Optimized vs Effective.  Is there a difference?  Is one better than the other for the game in the short or long run?  Have you had any experiences where one could be compared to the other?

I'll chime in with my opinion after some others give their thoughts.  :-)

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Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #189 on: July 19, 2011, 08:16:36 AM »
Here's another topic.

Character Creation: Optimized vs Effective.  Is there a difference?  Is one better than the other for the game in the short or long run?  Have you had any experiences where one could be compared to the other?

I'll chime in with my opinion after some others give their thoughts.  :-)
Effective to me means that they are able to properly do their job in the group, and make use of their abilities in a meaningful way. Optimized would be them having tweaked the character to perform at peak levels, with all their abilities being put to the best use. In my opinion, effective is better then optimized because to me optimized characters tend to be the ones that turn out Mar Sue the most. This isn't always true, but when your character is seemingly without flaws because of the build, that it hard not to play or let get to your head.

Though it's really just a preference in my opinion. I've rarely seen a a truly 'optimized character' as the term changes meaning with different GMs/STs.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #190 on: July 19, 2011, 08:39:53 AM »
I would say there is a difference, because they're not mutually exclusive - one is a wide scale, the other is more binary.

Being effective is simpler to determine objectively - either you can contribute to the game and the party's success, or you can't. If you have a role/job/specialty and you are capable of fulfilling it, you're effective, regardless of your party members. Someone else can be more effective than you, but that only makes you subjectively less effective, which can be fixed by out-of-game Diplomacy.

Being optimized, on the other hand, is stickier, because it can be so varied. The act of 'optimizing', at its most basic level, is simply not making bad choices. A Fighter who puts his highest stat in Strength is optimizing, as is one who chooses Power Attack. A Fighter with Power Attack and Shocktrooper is optimizing more, as is one who dips Barbarian for Pounce. It's very, very difficult to be un-optimized, and generally is either the effect of someone who's never played a system RPG before and makes a character completely unassisted, or someone with a chip on their shoulder about 'RP' who deliberately makes poor chargen decisions.

 The problem comes when your character is either over-optimized or under-optimized for your group and the campaign/DM. A group of low-op players...the Sword-and-board fighter, kung-fu Monk, healbot Cleric, and fireball-slinging Sorcerer...can get along great without problems, if the DM scales challenges appropriately for what they can accomplish. Likewise, a Druid, Wizard/Archmage, DMM battle-Cleric, and Psion can co-exist in mutual harmony; their damage output and ability to solve problems in nonconventional ways is exponentially higher than the first group, but a DM prepared for such can plan ahead and still offer effective challenges, while letting everyone cut loose. The issues, and many people's prejudices against certain classes/playstyles, comes when you start mixing between them. Stick the Fighter and the battle-Cleric in the same group, and the poor Fighter will find himself rendered irrelevant by the caster who's buffed to the gills 24/7 and can still heal/contribute utility magic. The Sorcerer may have fun dropping Fireballs on enemies' heads, but when he does so only to have the Wizard fire off a Chained Split Maximized Enervation and oneshot the boss and half of his minions, there's a problem. If you put the Psion in front of a DM who's used to a Fireball Sorcerer, the simple ability of the former to throw a fireball/iceball/acidball/soundball when he so chooses can overwhelm the poor unprepared DM, and usually causes kneejerk bannings. The much-debated Tome of Battle classes are unquestionably better than the PHB melee classes they are analogues of...to groups/DMs who consider Fighters and Monks to be balanced out-of-the-box, the flexibility and damage output of Warblades and Swordsages makes them completely OP; groups that view 1d8+Str/turn and 'Flurry of Misses'  as endless frustrations cry tears of happiness at being able to deal relevant damage while moving more than 5ft./turn.


Quote
This isn't always true, but when your character is seemingly without flaws because of the build, that it hard not to play or let get to your head.
I'm amused here by what I suspect is unintentional irony, because actual mechanical Flaws are generally viewed as powergaming, even by practiced optimizers.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 08:42:45 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #191 on: July 19, 2011, 12:42:59 PM »
The Sorcerer may have fun dropping Fireballs on enemies' heads, but when he does so only to have the Wizard fire off a Chained Split Maximized Enervation and oneshot the boss and half of his minions, there's a problem.

Wouldn't that require an Epic caster?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #192 on: July 19, 2011, 12:46:28 PM »
Wouldn't that require an Epic caster?

With proper metamagic stacking and mitigation, you can do that without even changing the spell level. That's the serious top-end of powerbuilding, though.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #193 on: July 19, 2011, 01:27:42 PM »
For me at least, the two are very different.  An efficient character contributes to the success of the party in a way that is better than mediocre, while an optimized character is so efficient that he or she often overshadows the rest of the party and makes them feel superfluous, or at the very least like they're only there to be extra targets.  Traditionally the optimized character will use minmaxing techniques to ensure their characters are combat monsters who can deal more hit point damage than anyone else even fathomed was possible, but variations do exist.  To me optimization is a negative thing since it's usually done as a way to "outdo" his fellow players.  That's just as bad as gimping yourself to ineffectiveness in the name of RP in my opinion (again, in terms of games where being effective and contributing is an important aspect of the game).  Honestly, I blame video games like World of Warcraft where people are often mocked and ridiculed for not being optimized... where if you can't squeeze out that extra .03% DPS (Damage Per Second), you're a "noob" and should "learn to play".  Honestly, I've been on the Paizo boards and I'm sure the WotC boards are the same... all anyone seemed to care about was optimization and DPR (Damage Per Round now).  Seriously, you had people doing math to figure out what given build did the most damage and how the system could be broken.  I think any game would be a lot more enjoyable all around if people bothered to read the rules enough to make their character effective but not go so far as to pervert the rules to try and make something unbalanced. 

What's amusing to me is that very often so-called optimized characters are one trick ponies whose awesome DPR capability only works under optimal conditions.  These players often get upset if those conditions change so that their big gun doesn't work. 

For a humorous example of such a character in fiction, look here.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #194 on: July 19, 2011, 01:38:39 PM »
So for you, effective and optimized are equally binary - "optimizing" means minmaxing and cranking every last drop of mechanical efficiency from a build?

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #195 on: July 19, 2011, 01:40:55 PM »
So for you, effective and optimized are equally binary - "optimizing" means minmaxing and cranking every last drop of mechanical efficiency from a build?

Yes.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #196 on: July 19, 2011, 01:43:41 PM »
Yes.

A valid viewpoint, then, though it makes it hard to compare opinions when people are using completely different definitions of words - particularly emotionally charged ones like 'optimizing'.

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #197 on: July 19, 2011, 01:54:26 PM »
Wikipedia refers to it thus:

"Optimization, in computer and table-top role-playing games, is a term intended to describe a play style or set of play styles alternately referred to by the terms munchkin gaming, powergaming, min-maxing, "roll-playing", or twinking, but without the pejorative connotation of those terms."

It seems to back up my definition, suggesting that optimization is basically powergaming with a sugar coated name.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #198 on: July 19, 2011, 01:58:39 PM »
Hold on, lemee go edit Wikipedia and I'll get back to you. As is, you're basically applying a Fordism, by stating that it only counts as optimizing if it's taken to the extreme.


EDIT: Ah, you selectively quoted the most perjorative part of the article...not very sporting, really.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimization_(role-playing_games)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 02:02:46 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline LunarSageTopic starter

Re: D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games
« Reply #199 on: July 19, 2011, 02:05:59 PM »
So Wikipedia is not a valid source simply because it's possible to edit it?   ::)

I don't buy that, sorry.

Wiki has almost always been accurate when I've done research on multitudes of things... and I used other sites as well.  The fact is if something on Wiki is not accurate there are -loads- of people who know what they're talking about to quickly edit it back.

Fordism?  *shakes head*  Ok, you're talking to someone who has never been to college.  Layman English please?

Optimizing by it's very definition implies that extreme.  If something is optimal, one would assume it's as good as it can get.