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Author Topic: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)  (Read 4857 times)

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Offline Maiz

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2011, 10:13:47 PM »
http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

Okay there is a difference between me saying 'Oh I am leary towards white people' and the fact that white people have a societal advantage over people of color in this society, that white men are the default for books and movies, that Hispanic and black men are more likely to be jailed for drug possession than white men, that white men with a criminal record are just as likely to get a callback as black men without a criminal record. There's a difference between prejudice and institutional racism.

Offline Revolverman

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2011, 10:16:19 PM »
and that what to do with your claim you can't be racist to Caucasians?

Offline Caela

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2011, 10:19:25 PM »
I wasn't talking about institutional racism, I was talking about person-to-person racism. I can't change history, I can change how I treat people and how I teach my children to hate people. And there is a difference between being leary of someone, and disliking them on sight simply because of the color of their skin, or their sex, or the sex of whoever's hand they are holding. In the end you can get a gov't to make laws against some forms of institutional "ism"s but they won't fully change until the people perpetuating the cycles that create them do and that won't happen while either side continues the cycle of hate.

Offline Maiz

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2011, 10:26:46 PM »
But 'person-to-person' racism plays into institutional racism. Just because someone is not like a flaming racist who has flags of the confederacy flying and is part of the KKK doesn't mean they can't be racist. Some of the most racist people I know have been ~liberals~. :/ Also it helps for individual people to be aware of their privilege(s) in society.

And someone can be prejudice against white people but you can't be racist against them since they have privilege in this society.

Offline Caela

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2011, 10:33:04 PM »
But 'person-to-person' racism plays into institutional racism. Just because someone is not like a flaming racist who has flags of the confederacy flying and is part of the KKK doesn't mean they can't be racist. Some of the most racist people I know have been ~liberals~. :/ Also it helps for individual people to be aware of their privilege(s) in society.

And someone can be prejudice against white people but you can't be racist against them since they have privilege in this society.

Your first paragraph I have no argument with. Person-to-person does feed into the problem but it's also the core of the solution. As I said, I can't change the whole institution or history, all I can change is how I, myself, act and how I teach my daughter. That in turn will, hopefully, inform how she acts and how she raises her children. Even your article said that the type of change needed takes decades to come to full fruition and to truly change it you need to change the attitudes of people, then the institutions will change because the people running them will change.

Your last sentence though is BS in my opinion. Racism is racism. If you a white person simply because they ARE white that is racist. You may not be able to oppress them but that doesn't make the attitude any less racist or counterproductive to the changes so many people want.

Offline Maiz

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2011, 10:42:40 PM »
It isn't racism. It may be prejudice, but hating a white person because they are white is not racist because it doesn't have the baggage of institutional racism piling on. If I hate a white person it's because they have white privilege, because they benefit from what white people have done from my ancestors.

Offline Will

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2011, 10:48:54 PM »
Re-labeling does little to change the fact that hate is hate.  Neither does calling it "being leery."  It's the same thing, and very few things will solidify the institution of *ism like returning it in kind.

Offline Caela

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2011, 10:49:48 PM »
It isn't racism. It may be prejudice, but hating a white person because they are white is not racist because it doesn't have the baggage of institutional racism piling on. If I hate a white person it's because they have white privilege, because they benefit from what white people have done from my ancestors.

If you hate someone because of their race, whether they are white, black, or purple with green polka dots, it's racism. You may not have the power to oppress them the way your ancestors were oppressed but hatred based on the color of someones skin IS racism no matter how you justify it.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2011, 11:00:37 PM »
There are a few problems with the statement and subsequent attempts to shore up the issue.  The first is that you are making the claim that groups have the right to ridicule themselves inside the group.  Once more, making a prejudice act against each other.  For a non-racial example, I will poise this scenario.  A girl comes home from school crying.  Her mother asks her what is wrong and she says that people at school were calling her “bitch.”  The mother, distressed, calls up the school to question this and hangs up.  Then she pats her child on the head and says everything is alright, because only other girls were calling her “bitch.”

The scenario probably does not trigger the same reaction in other mothers as in that mother.  Yet, bitch is a term typically used by women to refer to other women in a non-derogatory way.  Often women can be heard calling themselves a “bad bitch” or going out with their “bitches” to a party.  Used by men there is a different connotation.  So the argument can be made that the use of the word is for group cohesion among women.  Yet for a woman to call another woman a bitch, this term can still be negative.  To say she has a right to ridicule me with that word because she is a woman is to say that I cannot become offended and should respect her right.

Now, to move toward the second point.  The assertion now is that an act of prejudice should be tolerated by another individual if that individual has power or influence over another person.  This one is easy enough to show by simply flipping the tables.  A black business owner finds a burning cross tossed outside their house one night.  When arrested he finds that the people responsible are employees he recently fired.  He pats them on the shoulder and they are released from custody.  Scenario doesn’t quite work.

The problem with adding in a dynamic like power and privilege is that the dynamic shifts continually.

Point of fact, hating a person for their skin color is racist.  I am sorry if that was an unknown truth.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2011, 11:13:18 PM »
It isn't racism. It may be prejudice, but hating a white person because they are white is not racist because it doesn't have the baggage of institutional racism piling on. If I hate a white person it's because they have white privilege, because they benefit from what white people have done from my ancestors.

It's probably easier these days, in a U.S. context, to deliver verbal kicks at people who are perceived as 'typical white trash' than to do the same at many black people, because white people with severely limited economic resources and low schooling in a small Kentucky or Nebraska town don't have a widely accepted "story" they can use to vindicate what they are. It doesn't really matter whether those folks have shown plain signs of racism, they would make a perfect butt for that kind of put-downs anyway because they don't come across as winners in the larger game of society. And that kind of verbal kicking whether it's face-to-face or in print, can feed into acts of violence, even urban riots and looting

 I really don't think it's helpful if people make a point of rolling everybody who, like, is white, lives in a place of less than 50.000 inhabitants and claims to be a Christian into the racist fold, or claiming these guys all support inherently racist sides of society.

By the way I almost never use PC as an expression - it's just too imprecise and around here it's mostly used from the right, and as an excuse for making statements that are a lot more blunt than the 'jokes' we're discussing in this thread.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 11:18:54 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Maiz

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2011, 11:26:12 PM »
I never said that women can't use a word that is sometimes reclaimed in a negative manner towards other women. There is a thing called internalized misogyny/racism/etc. Also you are saying that I somehow condone bullying. I don't. Please do not twist my words. :/

I really don't get what you mean with the business burning cross thing. Are you trying to say that a a minority in a position of power can't be a victim of racism? That's the thing about racism. It's ingrained into society and it's institutions. Do you remember the whole scandle where a black professor was arrested while he was trying to get into his house just because he was black and lived in a ~nice~ neighborhood?

Me or any other person of color hating, disliking, being leary of, not trusting, whatever of white people is on such a smaller level than the privileges that people get for being white.

What you're calling 'racism' against white people is like. It's like a drop in the ocean compared to the racism against people of color, whether black, Hispanic, Asian, native, etc.

Offline Will

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2011, 11:34:45 PM »
"They started it?"  Is that the gist of your argument?

Offline Caela

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2011, 11:37:30 PM »
Me or any other person of color hating, disliking, being leary of, not trusting, whatever of white people is on such a smaller level than the privileges that people get for being white.

What you're calling 'racism' against white people is like. It's like a drop in the ocean compared to the racism against people of color, whether black, Hispanic, Asian, native, etc.

Racism against anyone is a travesty against everyone in an age when so many are trying to change those attitudes.

You say it's only a drop in the bucket, but how do you think buckets are filled? Drop by drop. Action by action. Year by year. Generation by generations until what started as aberrant behaviour becomes an accepted norm. Gradually the "minority" populations in this country are growing and if more people keep the attitude that it's alright to hate whites because they oppressed by ancestors eventually those minorities will find themselves in the role of the oppressors as they become the majority and gain the power that comes with being the majority.

Will revenge make anything that happened in the past better?

Offline Maiz

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2011, 11:50:08 PM »
"They started it?"  Is that the gist of your argument?

Um no? More like "they have enormous amounts of privilege and yet are crying racism when someone doesn't like them".

Also lol... NO. When me and a friend complain about white privilege it isn't revenge or anywhere NEAR the racism that we encounter. Okay this is like seriously really frustrating but obviously you are not aware of white privilege and what fucking white people get for just being born white, what they get from years of other white people stepping all over people who aren't white.  Also I really love how you're ignoring what i, a person of color, am saying.  You, assuming you're white, will never know how it is to experience racism.

Also here are some links. I don't know. Maybe they can help explain this where or will seem ~legitimate~.

http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/
http://tjlp.org/privilege101.pdf
http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
http://www.counterpunch.org/wise04242006.html
http://www.timwise.org/2002/06/honky-wanna-cracker-examining-the-myth-of-reverse-racism/
http://nerdsevolving.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-black-women-were-white-women.html
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/14/race-criminal-background-and-employment/

Offline Caela

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2011, 11:56:21 PM »
I never argued that white privilege didn't happen. Never said it didn't happen now, or that I could understand everything a person of color goes through.

What I said was that racism is racism no matter the color of the person doing the hating or the person being hated. I also said that hatred is a cycle and the more you feed it, the longer it continues.

Racism won't stop if only the white people stop hating. All that will happen then is that it will become the white people being oppressed. BOTH sides have to learn from the past and overcome it. BOTH sides have to recognize that there are issues at hand and work together to solve them. 

Offline Sabby

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2011, 12:05:18 AM »
Wait, aren't schools supposed to be a theological no mans land, the nuetral zone? I find it kind of disturbing that a school, where children will end up making extremely important and personal decisions about themselves, would endorse one lifestyle choice over another, regardless of it being God, straightness, conformism, career paths, or anything really... I thought that whole pledge thing would have been taken away years ago o.O your telling me there are schools that still use "Under God" each assembly?

Wow, so much for seperation of state and church.


Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2011, 12:58:01 AM »
I think its time for people to step away from this thread for a spell and relax.

Offline consortium11

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2011, 02:48:49 AM »
It isn't racism. It may be prejudice, but hating a white person because they are white is not racist because it doesn't have the baggage of institutional racism piling on. If I hate a white person it's because they have white privilege, because they benefit from what white people have done from my ancestors.

This sounds remarkably similar to the "only white people can be racist" argument... which is in and of itself pretty damn offensive (if not racist), especially to say any Chinese who suffered under Japan's yoke previously.

I'm not a huge fan of the privileged concept either. I understand what it means and roughly agree with the basis behind it but far too often it starts getting turned into a "you're more privileged than me!" type "debate". Put simply a male WASP is generally seen at the top of the privilege ladder... but how on earth do you balance below that? In general concept is someone who is white, gay, an atheist and disabled more or less privileged than a straight, black, protestant or a lesbian, protestant Latino? Obviously in specific circumstances certain aspects come through ("jokes"/insults directed at a certain race, disability or sexuality) but in general discourse? It gets horribly convoluted and messy... is a gay, atheist, disabled African American (to use a stereotypical term) more or less privileged than a straight disabled black Kenyan? Is the Kenyan more or less privileged than a virtually identical person from the DRC? Do Ashanti of Ghana still maintain the vast privilege they once had?

Far too often privilege is simply used as a stick to beat others with.

On the topic of political correctness... it's hard to support the term because "political correctness" is only ever really used as a negative. When something you dislike happens you call it "political correctness gone mad"... but then you never hear of "political correctness done right". Why? Because the very term itself is full of negative connotations.

Personally I try to follow a simpler maxim. Don't be a dick (yes I know, a gendered term etc etc)/try to be polite (yes I know, the "tone argument")/try to be reasonable (yes I know, mental health ablist). There aren't hard and strict rules... as almost everything in life it's dependant on circumstances. To take a fairly simple example;  both Fitna and Submission were wildly offensive to Muslims (to the extent one film maker was murders and the two others had to spend extensive time under police protection... which in Gert Wilders case remains to this day). Fitna seems to me to have little merit... it is virtually identical to many of the "debates" that rage on (and on and on and on...) where one guy takes excerpts from the Koran and other Islamic religious texts, removes all context and uses them to show how evil Islam is... while Submission actually had some merit. On such a basis while I wouldn't ban Fitna it certainly fails my "don't be a dick" type test and I couldn't ever see myself making or supporting something like that... while I perhaps could for Submission. Likewise with the play Behzti, despite it's offence to the Sikh community.

Offline Maiz

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2011, 03:11:23 AM »
:/  'only white people can be racist' argument is settled in present time in Western countries/places where white people are in power. Don't even start with colonialist Japan and China, because you are talking to someone who studies that subject extensively. Although I would like to note that even in places where white people are a minority they often still have privilege because of things like colonialism and imperialism.

There is this thing called intersectionality. And I would say that  a gay, atheist disabled African American is privileged in certain ways and less privileged in other ways than a straight disabled black Kenyan. Someone who is white and queer has a different experience than someone who is Hispanic and queer. Race, gender, religion, etc all interact and just because you share a lack of privilege with someone else but have privileged over them doesn't mean your experience is exactly the same. I have educational privilege over people who aren't lucky enough to have a scholarship. Does this mean that other people don't have privilege over me? No, of course not. Being less privileged than someone else doesn't automatically mean they have 'more right to speak' than someone else who shares a privilege with them. The point is that if in a conversation about x, if you have privilege over someone in that regard then you should try to listen to the person less privileged than you.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2011, 03:46:27 AM »
I suppose the break is over now.

First Point:  Internalized misogyny is not particularly applicable in the scenario postured as the focus was on the “right” of a group to ridicule members of itself with derogatory words particular to that group.  Bitch is a term particular to women and so was the example.  As for my stating that you support bullying, that is your own view point of the argument you have made.  To say the child was being bullied is to say that the term bitch being spoken to her was demeaning and so another person has the right to demean her because of their right to ridicule other members.  That is an extension of your statement, not a twisting of your words. 

Second Point:  I am not sure where your inference was made, but I was making a reference to the dynamics of power over another person.  The black business owner is going to press charges and feel offended, even though he is a person with privilege over those making a racist demonstration in his yard.  By your argument he should not feel threatened or should tolerate the prejudice because he is in a position of privilege.



The issue at hand as steadily become a focus on is racism merely an act that white people can perpetrate.  Of course the answer is no by virtue of the definition of racism.  Any number of blogs can be posted up to the contrary, but in fact racism and prejudice are not defined to a particular group of people.  Institutionalized racism is most prominently noted in the United States by white people against other groups, but is not central to black people being the victims or white people being the perpetrators.  Once more this phrase is not defined by standards of who does what to whom, but rather by what occurs.

So being a person of color does not exclude you from being a racist simply because the target of your hatred is white people.  Nor does being a person of color entitle you to lecture others on prejudice or on being racist.  The study of race relations, racism, culture and so on is more complex than the color of one’s skin. 

Also, be weary of brushing someone off because you have “studied the subject.”  The same could easily be done to you in this particular area.

Offline Vekseid

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2011, 03:49:26 AM »
Um no? More like "they have enormous amounts of privilege and yet are crying racism when someone doesn't like them".

Also lol... NO. When me and a friend complain about white privilege it isn't revenge or anywhere NEAR the racism that we encounter. Okay this is like seriously really frustrating but obviously you are not aware of white privilege and what fucking white people get for just being born white, what they get from years of other white people stepping all over people who aren't white.  Also I really love how you're ignoring what i, a person of color, am saying.  You, assuming you're white, will never know how it is to experience racism.

I'm sure Jenkins Pietrzak would agree with you.

Or people who get laid off and replaced due to a foreign nationalist boss.

The whole idea behind racism is that it creates an exploitable division within society, in order to distract people from the truly wealthy in this country. The guy making fifty million dollars a year tells the laborer making $50k a year "Watch out! That black man/native/hispanic making only $25k a year is after a quarter of your wealth!" And the laborer naturally panics, because there's no way he could possibly survive on $38k a year. He doesn't know how, it's expensive to be poor.

This goes both ways, of course, he'll also tell the poor black man "You going to let him keep you down like that?" He wears a different face this time, but it's the same concept.

Your efforts to perpetuate this division are not appreciated.

It isn't racism. It may be prejudice, but hating a white person because they are white is not racist because it doesn't have the baggage of institutional racism piling on. If I hate a white person it's because they have white privilege, because they benefit from what white people have done from my ancestors.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

Quote from: The Dictionary
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

It is racism. You claiming that it is not racism does not magically change the definition of the term any more than when a white supremacist claims the same. White supremacists don't hate blacks for their black skin, oh no. They hate 'lazy' people. They hate 'smelly' people. They come up with justifications for their hate and use their own statistics to qualify them, gleefully pointing out that Asians are doing just as well as whites or better.



And this thread obviously needed locking with that post. It can be unlocked in a day provided people agree to calm down. And by people I mean xiaomei.

Offline Bayushi

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2011, 01:54:05 AM »
:/  'only white people can be racist' argument is settled in present time in Western countries/places where white people are in power. Don't even start with colonialist Japan and China, because you are talking to someone who studies that subject extensively. Although I would like to note that even in places where white people are a minority they often still have privilege because of things like colonialism and imperialism.

Well, I could go along and list every racist encounter I've had with a white person on my third hand. You know, the third hand that doesn't exist?

However, I don't have enough fingers to list every racist encounter I've had with someone of African or Hispanic descent.

While some of those causing the issues may just have been cases of stupid high school hormones raging out of control, that doesn't make it sting any less. I've watched a white male friend get attacked after school by three Filipino guys because they didn't like that a WHITE GUY DARED to be dating a Filipina girl.

Racism is racism, regardless of who perpetrates it. The Japanese were horribly racist towards the Chinese in World War II (I say this being Nisei, so I have the right). The Nisei who lived in the United States were victims of racism during World War II, placed into Internment camps when white Germans and Italians were not (though, admittedly, there were a thousand Germans and Italians in the US to every Nisei). Yet, there were THOUSANDS of brave Nisei who stepped up and enlisted in the US Army. Their units, the 442nd Regimental Combat Team & the 100th Infantry Battalion, are the most decorated units in American military history.

Those men fought HARD and loyally, knowing that if or when they returned home, they'd still be discriminated against. They placed personal honor, integrity, and love for country BEFORE any petty bitching about racism.

People who cry about being offended need to pull their diapers back up and get on with things. So you're offended? Tough shit, grow up and act like an adult. Life isn't nice, or fair. You think your lot in life is bad because you're BLACK? Try life as a single, lesbian, Asian woman who happens to be permanently disabled. Try life as a friend of mine, as a single, straight, white male disabled combat veteran. He can't even WALK STRAIGHT, much less find someone he can spend the rest of his life with. He's screwed because most women are shallow morons who place image before everything else. Not to mention, he's anything but rich.

Just like people who constantly whine that 'The Man' is keeping them down. No, kid, the only person keep you down is yourself. And maybe the shitty economy.

Offline Jude

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2011, 04:49:19 AM »
I see a distinction being made here by xiaomei between racism and prejudice which has resulted in a rather heated argument that is at least in part pure semantics.  Xiao seems to think that the only acceptable usage of the term racism is one that includes "institutional" as a preface -- unfortunately that isn't the sense in which other posters are using it.  A brief review of the dictionary definition (for your viewing pleasure:  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism) shows that the definition most definitely includes all prejudicial thinking that is racially based, even such thinking that is aligned against a majority group.

At the same time, I think he's also making a valid point.  Yes, underprivileged groups can be guilty of sexism, racism, and bigotry, but the fact that they are underprivileged in society makes it difficult for them to cause actual harm to other groups through those beliefs.  This puts privileged bigotry into a category of its own and makes its eradication of much greater importance (because these minority groups are not capable of institutional racism to any large degree).

The reality is, when it comes down to it no one is perfectly neutral on race, sex, gender, and sexual orientation.  We all have preconceptions and subconscious biases that interfere with our ability to accurately judge people as individuals and not as a representative of the group we identify them as being a part of.  No group is completely blameless here, as prejudicial thinking is hardwired into our brain, but focusing on the 'sins' of the minority as a way of saying 'let he without sin cast the first stone' is kind of insulting to the hardships that they experience.  After all, you wouldn't tell a guy who just lost his arm, "that sucks, I can relate, I stubbed my toe earlier."

And now for something completely different.

But having said all that, while I think it's important to be aware of your privilege and sympathetic to those who do not share it, I love offensive humor.  I don't think that enjoying sexist, racist, homophobic, or generally bigoted humor automatically makes you a bad person without question.  The context is what's important here.  Are the jokes you're making nothing but a pretense to hide your bigotry?  Are you considering your audience and making sure they're receptive to your brand of humor and aware that you're not serious?  Are people present who will appreciate the joke for its message rather than its humor?  There are many more questions where those came from too, and I don't think the answer is as simple as "never make offensive jokes."

Offensive jokes can be a great vehicle for mocking the absurdity inherent in racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry.  Take "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" for example.  The first episode of last season is called, "Mac Fights Gay Marriage."  In it, one of the main characters of the show begins to protest gay marriage because a transwoman he was dating went through with her sex change operation and married a man without first asking him out on a date (which she supposedly promised to do).  The character is behaving in an extremely petty way and makes very bad arguments against gay marriage; his quotations of the bible are especially hilarious because it's so obvious that he doesn't have the slightest clue what he's talking about (and is basically just grasping at straws because he's upset that she never called him after having her penis removed).

Point being, satire sometimes utilizes hate speech and offensive jokes that would otherwise be unacceptable from the mouth of someone who was serious about the content.  I think that's a good thing, because humor is one of the best tools that we have for highlighting absurdity.

And now for another new thing!

Removing under god from the pledge isn't a matter of being PC unless you take PC to mean "constitutionally consistent."  Government cannot respect the establishment of religion.  God is a religious concept.  Period.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 04:50:46 AM by Jude »

Offline Noelle

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2011, 11:33:05 AM »
Well, I could go along and list every racist encounter I've had with a white person on my third hand. You know, the third hand that doesn't exist?

However, I don't have enough fingers to list every racist encounter I've had with someone of African or Hispanic descent.

While some of those causing the issues may just have been cases of stupid high school hormones raging out of control, that doesn't make it sting any less. I've watched a white male friend get attacked after school by three Filipino guys because they didn't like that a WHITE GUY DARED to be dating a Filipina girl.

Here is the issue with the examples you are providing: The "what about the poor white people" defense, while usually valid, is also a distraction from the larger issue at hand. In this case, white people are, and continue to be privileged in American society. I think it's safe to say that nobody here would condone violence or hatred towards white people, but it's also making an argument nobody has made and is basically missing the point; yes, sometimes white people are injured by works or actions of minorities, but comparatively speaking, instances of racism are by far and away more prevalent and damaging towards minorities -- like Jude's example of stubbing your toe and using that as a point of relation with someone who just lost a major limb. In the line of PC terms, it's incredibly difficult to argue that 'cracker' has oppressed white people to the extent the word 'nigger' has oppressed black people. Nobody should be using slurs against any group, but the history and usage is just not there to back one of those words up to give it the power of the other.

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Racism is racism, regardless of who perpetrates it. The Japanese were horribly racist towards the Chinese in World War II (I say this being Nisei, so I have the right).

What I find troubling about these two statements is that on one hand, you're dismissing all racism as equal, and yet you use an example of your own racial background to justify why you can say it. This is not concurrent. If racism is racism, then the latter issue of your own race is irrelevant and you could make that statement however you wanted without issue. This is a bit of a 'have your cake' dilemma.

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Those men fought HARD and loyally, knowing that if or when they returned home, they'd still be discriminated against. They placed personal honor, integrity, and love for country BEFORE any petty bitching about racism.

Aaaand this is incredibly offensive and dismissive. You're also throwing up red herrings and making assumptions -- you are speaking on behalf of people you don't know with knowledge that I'm dubious as to whether or not you can prove. It's equally racist to assume positive things about a group of people. Perhaps as an Asian you're familiar with people assuming you're good at math, or Indians being assumed to always be doctors, or that black people are great at basketball. I'm going to be bold here and say you probably can't speak on behalf of all Nisei who enlisted.

Re: "petty bitching" -- Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that being angry over institutionalized discrimination is anything but petty.

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People who cry about being offended need to pull their diapers back up and get on with things. So you're offended? Tough shit, grow up and act like an adult. Life isn't nice, or fair. You think your lot in life is bad because you're BLACK? Try life as a single, lesbian, Asian woman who happens to be permanently disabled. Try life as a friend of mine, as a single, straight, white male disabled combat veteran. He can't even WALK STRAIGHT, much less find someone he can spend the rest of his life with. He's screwed because most women are shallow morons who place image before everything else. Not to mention, he's anything but rich.

You're right that everyone has their own struggles, but again, these are mostly just red herrings that miss the point of the bigger issue. You've created a straw man out of their grievances and have failed to adequately address the actual problem. It's not just "crying" (can we maybe tone down the vitriol here?) about being black or Hispanic or any race or ethnicity -- it's what comes with it. It's having laws made that make it okay to racially profile you to be pulled over and checked for citizenship status or pulled over or searched or brutalized, or being assumed to be a thug or a gang member by skin color alone, assumed to be a terrorist, being followed around stores, being underrepresented in the media, being discriminated against in the workplace, making less money, children getting less attention in the classroom, being given an inferior education, being assumed to be less capable, being made a representative of your entire race (for example, instead of your failures/successes being attributed to you, personally, you become an example of a 'good black person' or 'bad black person')...There are also issues of image: Was Obama more approachable because he's half white? Did some people not vote for him because he was black? People often call his race into question only when it's to bring up that he's half-black -- there were plenty of people exaggerating his nefarious plans to "enslave the white man"...

Yeah, I have problems, I've been through some hard times, I've been unfairly treated, but comparatively, that's really not the point here, it really just sounds like a fight to see who is more oppressed or has it worse, which is a pointless one. The issue at hand here is racism. The fact that one white guy was ridiculed for dating a Filipina really doesn't negate the fact that there is an overwhelming problem with prejudice and hatred toward minorities and by and large, he is still seeing white privilege in most other places.

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Just like people who constantly whine that 'The Man' is keeping them down. No, kid, the only person keep you down is yourself. And maybe the shitty economy.

This...really isn't true at all, as evidenced by my previous paragraph.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: What is so wrong with PC? (A separation of church and state issue)
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2011, 11:47:23 AM »
Racism is racism.. I've had it come up in my life.

I've been picked on (and beaten up) because I was Protestant. I've been called 'Cracker', 'Honky' and 'Whitey' by fellow workers and one supervisor, and I KNEW I was given crap jobs because I wasn't one of the supervisor's 'people'. He was a Filipino and of the six guys that worked for him there was one white guy (me) and one black guy (the other 'grunt' worker) and we were always the last to be released, the ones that didn't get the prime leave days, we were excluded because we only spoke English in the work center (the others spoke Tagalog (sp?)).

We'd have to grease joints, degrease APU and Avionics compartments, working parties and such. Only when it required more than two people did the other guys get tapped.

I've had black kids accuse me of being racist because I'm white, male and speak with a southern accent.

I think the worse thing the PC movement did was give EVERYONE a reason to stomp on folks by claiming folks are 'insensitive' to their 'insert race/religion/gender'.