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Author Topic: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?  (Read 40046 times)

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Offline Shjade

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #400 on: September 04, 2011, 09:58:43 PM »
Also, there are a lot of people who are still in WotLK mode, where the healer is responsible for everything and DPS and tanks aren't interested or willing to do their part to mitigate the damage they take.

Very much so. It was always immediately obvious who hadn't been playing pre-LK and who had when entering a heroic. People who'd done BC heroics were on the ball with their CC for marked targets regardless of class. I was a rogue and throwing kidney stuns and blinds in the middle of fights (usually to save the healer - screw the other DPS if they can't handle their threat - but sometimes due to one of the most reliable CC's getting broken early or unexpectedly). I saw warriors switch stances to shield slam things, druids who'd hope into bear form for some impromptu tanking, some other examples of fine control, but it was far less common than the types who seemed to think the answer to things getting out of control was MORE BERSERKER ATTACKS. -.-

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #401 on: September 04, 2011, 10:19:24 PM »
OMG! You raid now with a ret paladin?  I've had to retire mine because I cannot  get her anywhere near to where she should be dps wise.  The playstyle changed too much for me in Cata and I hate it  Holy Power can go DIAF for all I care and the people who let that change go through should be castrated.

 /sigh  not really, but the HP change took a LOT of the fun out of playing a Ret pally for me and I cannot get the hang of playing one anymore.

I don't LIKE my dps.. it's too spikey.. some Raids I'm doing 9k and tearing my hair out.. others I'm doing 14k and wondering what is going on and what have I been missing.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #402 on: September 04, 2011, 10:20:43 PM »
Very much so. It was always immediately obvious who hadn't been playing pre-LK and who had when entering a heroic. People who'd done BC heroics were on the ball with their CC for marked targets regardless of class. I was a rogue and throwing kidney stuns and blinds in the middle of fights (usually to save the healer - screw the other DPS if they can't handle their threat - but sometimes due to one of the most reliable CC's getting broken early or unexpectedly). I saw warriors switch stances to shield slam things, druids who'd hope into bear form for some impromptu tanking, some other examples of fine control, but it was far less common than the types who seemed to think the answer to things getting out of control was MORE BERSERKER ATTACKS. -.-

I LOVE being a Survival hunter for CC when i do my main alt (Dwarf Hunter).. you get TWO long term CC tricks.. Ice trap AND Tranq Shot

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Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #403 on: September 04, 2011, 10:25:01 PM »
Very much so. It was always immediately obvious who hadn't been playing pre-LK and who had when entering a heroic. People who'd done BC heroics were on the ball with their CC for marked targets regardless of class. I was a rogue and throwing kidney stuns and blinds in the middle of fights (usually to save the healer - screw the other DPS if they can't handle their threat - but sometimes due to one of the most reliable CC's getting broken early or unexpectedly). I saw warriors switch stances to shield slam things, druids who'd hope into bear form for some impromptu tanking, some other examples of fine control, but it was far less common than the types who seemed to think the answer to things getting out of control was MORE BERSERKER ATTACKS. -.-

*recalls 'offtanking' in TBC on his rogue*
Fuuuuun times...!

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #404 on: September 04, 2011, 10:28:28 PM »
I played a DK ... the only crowd control we have is kill it faster!

I haven't played since the most recent patch, and I won't say I was the best geared DK ever (because I wasn't), but pulling 18k~ or so in a heroic makes 'not controlling your aggro' into kind of a joke.  When my DPS is 50% of the party's output (which occasionally happened when I'd end up with a group that was just geared enough for heroics, say), 'reigning it in' means 'standing around and not doing anything'.

Offline Shjade

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #405 on: September 05, 2011, 12:58:33 AM »
I played a DK ... the only crowd control we have is kill it faster!

Icy Chains. If you're full frost, Hungering Cold. In a pinch, pop IBF and Death Grip or, if whatever needs to be pulled away from a squishy would also squish you, Taunt it from far enough away that it won't reach you before the taunt wears off or before it can be re-taunted by the actual tank.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #406 on: September 05, 2011, 02:00:39 AM »
Icy Chains. If you're full frost, Hungering Cold. In a pinch, pop IBF and Death Grip or, if whatever needs to be pulled away from a squishy would also squish you, Taunt it from far enough away that it won't reach you before the taunt wears off or before it can be re-taunted by the actual tank.

those work.. but even then.. of the tanks.. I think DKs are the softest for threat/agroo generation. I'm wondering what this upcoming patch will do to the mechanic..

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #407 on: September 05, 2011, 02:04:06 AM »
Icy Chains. If you're full frost, Hungering Cold. In a pinch, pop IBF and Death Grip or, if whatever needs to be pulled away from a squishy would also squish you, Taunt it from far enough away that it won't reach you before the taunt wears off or before it can be re-taunted by the actual tank.

Hungering Cold is not good crowd control.  It lasts like 10 seconds, and if you've already engaged a mob, it will break to someone's dots pretty much instantly.  Similarly, I'm about a million more times useful in a fight actually killing things than I am kiting things in circle with chains.  Crowd control which removes my DPS from the fight is just not a good idea.  If giving up 16k+ damage is worth it for a tiny bit of not-actually-CC, I'm going to be curious why the dungeon assembler put me in with four warriors!

I don't think I've ever seen someone call for off-tank as CC (not since vanilla, anyway).  It's easier just to heal the extra damage on the tank in my experience.  I mean, there's always room for emergency stuff, but I don't think of things like 'pulling an add off the healer' as crowd control (I'm referring to ways to remove targets from a fight in a more permanent kind of way when I say 'crowd control')

Talking about heroics, anyway.  I took a break from WoW toward the beginning of Cata, and no experience + no guild = no raiding, ever, so I don't play anymore. :p
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 02:14:51 AM by meikle »

Offline Samael

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Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #408 on: September 05, 2011, 02:35:40 AM »
I used to play a Paladin Tank.
Nothing better than joining a heroic and learning that your team consists of a Fury Warrior, a Hunter who refuses to use traps, and sends his pet in first, a DK and a Druid on healing, who is still undergeared.

...God, I hated that Grim Batol run...

Offline Shjade

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #409 on: September 05, 2011, 02:56:29 AM »
Hungering Cold is not good crowd control.  It lasts like 10 seconds, and if you've already engaged a mob, it will break to someone's dots pretty much instantly.  Similarly, I'm about a million more times useful in a fight actually killing things than I am kiting things in circle with chains.  Crowd control which removes my DPS from the fight is just not a good idea.  If giving up 16k+ damage is worth it for a tiny bit of not-actually-CC, I'm going to be curious why the dungeon assembler put me in with four warriors!

And this kind of thinking is why it was so rare for me to see any other DPS using their CC to save people in heroics. ;p

Giving up your epix damage is worth it if it saves your healer from a stray killer dog for the few seconds needed for the tank to pick it up. 16k+ damage < group being alive to finish fight.

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #410 on: September 05, 2011, 03:01:23 AM »
And this kind of thinking is why it was so rare for me to see any other DPS using their CC to save people in heroics. ;p

Giving up your epix damage is worth it if it saves your healer from a stray killer dog for the few seconds needed for the tank to pick it up. 16k+ damage < group being alive to finish fight.

Did you not read the entire post or what?

I'm playing a death knight.  I don't have to give up my damage to pull shit off the healer.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 03:06:28 AM by meikle »

Offline AllieCat

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #411 on: September 05, 2011, 03:08:49 AM »
Grim Batol?

Skinner's Paradise.. I love when I'm the only skinner in there.

Let's see, what have I been doing for the last few days..

I've been continuing to gear up, it's amazing how few people do Wintergrasp (the defender's exploit of killing cannons at the tower to rank up quickly makes it quick, especially when tbere's only 2-3 a side), and it pays more to win there then it does to lose in Tol Barad (I hate HATE HATE HATE HATE Tol Barad, especially as an attacker) So between that and doing a lot of PUG's I've kitted myself up pretty nice, three Justice Point gears.. then.

(insert emergency brake being pulled sound here)

I've hit a wall. I'm the last active member of my guild, and there's a lot of stuff in the bank, to explain. To get shoulders and/or helm, you need a drop that only comes from 10 man raids. The only PUG groups on Moonie that I see advertising for Raids require you to already have done it before (to show the acheivements to get an invite, etcetera). So I feel like I'm being locked out (and I've got pretty good gear (wow-heroes puts my gearscore at 4550)..

So to pass the time (and to rebuild my depleted account), I've been singling BC Heroics and WOTLK 5 Mans (as an arms warrior, it'd probably take more time to do heroic WOTLK then it's worth) and to get those achievement points. I even went and got my Jenkins title :)

But I gotta figure out what to do. If I take Lai out of the guild, I have other alts in it, but I can never get Lai back in (since I'm the only active member, I can't invite myself :P).. and now that I've done one of the Troll heroics, I'm running out of new things to do and that worries me. I don't want to drift away again.. I wanna see the new and exciting stuff)

Oh, and talking about the PUG from hell, on our Trollheroic today,, we have two people who just spend the whole run sniping at each other (one is used to a system where everyone rolls need on Crystals and Orbs while the rest of us roll Needs only on Orbs since they're profession specific). So one person accuses the needer of ninjaing a Crystak, and they spend the next twenty minutes calling each other every name under the sun. There are multiple attempts to votekick each other out of the group (all of which fail), and as we continue to go on through the bosses, it's like every bad word ever is being exchanged. Finally, after beating Zanzil, I tell both of them to grow up, that we could have resolved this by doing /rolls against what he had rolled for need on the crystal 45 minutes ago, and if the two of them didn't stop it immediately, *I* was going to leave and leave them hanging one boss away.

I think even though I'm not yet qualified for the Real Life Achievement "The Mom Voice", I was able to fake it enough that they stopped filling the party window with insults, and we managed to finish Zul'Gurub without a wipe on Jindo :)

But even after we finished, I felt like I needed a multiple hour break just to get the irritation I had over the two boys.

I wish I had been the healer instead of DPS (my 75 Pally is a healer).. then I just smile and say "I can survive for a bit with out you, so remember to stay on the good side of the healer, they decide who lives and who dies... *evilgrins*"

They get the point. :)

And one more thing, quick. God bless Tanks. I couldn't do it. TOo much panic for me "Oh god oh god h god I'm losing aggro, no you get back here.. STOP CHASING MY HEALER.. no you can't wander off and attack that DPS... NO GET BACK HERE THE HEALER IS NOT YOUR CHEW TOY.. OK WHO HIT THE SHEEP.. AGGHHH! WHO PULLED THAT SECOND GROUP.  THERE'S TOO MANY HEAL ME HEAL ME HEAL ME ..."

When my guild was active I made it clear over and over again "LAI NO TANK!"

Offline Question Mark

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #412 on: September 05, 2011, 03:11:11 AM »
Long ass topic, will be fun to read during a boring lecture.

I only browsed the last page, but here's my 2cents on the topic.

If you play Alliance (which I do!  FOR THE ALLIANCE!), then Blizzard has a Horde bias.  If you play the Horde, then Blizzard has an Alliance bias.

Yes, there are some things that Alliance and Horde are uneven on.  Horde gained more territory in Cataclysm, their attacks were more successful. Their quest chains are more action focused.  BIG emphasis on honor and glory in combat, but also strong emphasis on the unjust and immoral lengths some Horde go to in the name of Glory (Forsaken zones, Stonetalon much?).

Alliance is mostly recovery and recuperation.  We're drawing the lines in the sand, holding the Horde at bay, soldifying our holdings.  This makes for a more introspective, silent suffering sensation (NElf zones, Worgen, SBarrens).  And also lots of terrible pop culture ripoffs (I'm looking at you Westfall and Redridge).  We also kick ass in Swamp of Sorrows, but most argue that no one gives a fuck about Stonard, being so way behind enemy lines.

It's easy to see bias one way or another, but I think - if anything - Blizz is biased against the Horde.  They're setting them up to be the Horde of old, all violence and aggression, raping and pillaging because its what they do.  Horde instigated more than the Alliance in Cata, and the Horde condoned the Forsaken's....  slaughter.  And Garrosh.  Garrosh.

Maybe Blizz is setting up Horde = Strength, Alliance = Survival.  But I don't see any bias any way.  The situation is open to assessment, not forced.  Thus, no bias.




On a side note, Protadins for the win!  My main's a protadin, the One Spec Wonder.  I love the class, the lore, the playstyle.  I like how we're the tankiest of the tanks.  And what I mean by that is, we're literal battle tanks.  CDs out the wazoo, tons of mitigation.  We're focused on survival, whereas warriors have a more malleable toolkit, DKs are more offensive tanks, and druids are avoidance based.  Samael, I hear ya on the stupid PuGs.  They suck.  But hell, people are stupid as a rule.  I just accept it.

BTW, Grim Batol is my favorite 5man (besides ZA).


Also, I don't think CC is anywhere near as important as it was 8 months ago.  I blow through most heroics and Zandalaris with minimal CC (mainly just Medicine Men, the occasional healer, or some special circumstance like a newbie healer).  When I'm on a DPS, though, it's possible that I may get a newbie tank AND a newbie healer.  So, just in case, I ALWAYS lay down a freezing trap in heroics.  Every bit of CC helps, especially now that Blizz has noobified-- er, I mean, "adjusted it for better quality of life by removing CC aggro."

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #413 on: September 05, 2011, 03:15:01 AM »
Quote
And one more thing, quick. God bless Tanks. I couldn't do it. TOo much panic for me "Oh god oh god h god I'm losing aggro, no you get back here.. STOP CHASING MY HEALER.. no you can't wander off and attack that DPS... NO GET BACK HERE THE HEALER IS NOT YOUR CHEW TOY.. OK WHO HIT THE SHEEP.. AGGHHH! WHO PULLED THAT SECOND GROUP.  THERE'S TOO MANY HEAL ME HEAL ME HEAL ME ..."

It's not quite so bad in practice. :)  The extra responsibility makes it more intense but also more rewarding (in my experience, anyway.)  I played a prot warrior through all of vanilla, and a prot paladin from Burning Crusade through WotLK -- I guess all of that stuff about constantly watching for aggro and checking on the healer and watching for adds is just second nature to me now, because I do it regardless of which character I'm playing. :p

Offline AllieCat

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #414 on: September 05, 2011, 03:21:53 AM »
I think the upcoming changes (5x threat gen for tank instead of 3) will make tanking a lot easier.. but for me it was pretty much like I said.. trying to maintain my rotation, then all of a sudden I see someone else's name light up red, and you start panicking, I have to resist the urge to stop attacking and go grab it (rather then letting the DPS/Healer bring it back to me), because once you lose that rythum, you DON'T get it back, and then you start panicking and then bad things happen.

Offline Question Mark

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #415 on: September 05, 2011, 03:28:23 AM »
Tanking has always come naturally to me.  I healed as a pally up to L40, but then it just...  felt like whack-a-mole.  I tried out tanking (can't even remember why) and never went back.  Leading a group feels right.  Do this, do that, I'll take care of this.  And it all falls into place.  Tanks, I think, are the keystone of any group.  They determine when a pull starts, how it progresses, and how the group handles any SNAFUs.  It comes naturally to me, and that makes me pretty proud.  But it is an intense role.  I usually only do it for one or two dungeons in a row, then call it quits.  Long raids make me feel exhausted.

Tanking is not for everyone.  But that's cool, because healing sure as hell ain't for everyone (esp. me).

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #416 on: September 05, 2011, 03:30:03 AM »
I want every dungeon to be like tanking 45 minute Stratholme.  Always.  Forever.

Nothing in the game will ever live up to trying to do that in pre-raid gear.  When we finally pulled it off (I was in high school back then and played with a regular group of friends) it was awesomely rewarding.  Especially since we had a paladin healer (do people remember how ridiculous paladins used to be?)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 03:31:20 AM by meikle »

Offline AllieCat

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #417 on: September 05, 2011, 03:33:47 AM »
Bubbledins! :)

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Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #418 on: September 05, 2011, 07:33:58 AM »
When I did play WoW, I could only get into the tank role. I played good Heals, and had a pretty high level priest; but my main was always my Prot Warrior. Never did like plain old DPS for some reason. I tried it with a rogue and hunter, but it just wasn't any fun. Though Meikle is right, you get use to the aggro watching and crap after a while.

Offline Alucarddalv

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #419 on: September 05, 2011, 02:00:22 PM »
god fing d.... I had this big long post typed out and hit a button on my mouse which then made my browser go back a page and I lost my entire post......

Offline Alucarddalv

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #420 on: September 05, 2011, 02:10:07 PM »
Okay lets try this again.

Point One the CC in heroics. I for one feel that you need to keep using the cc even if you are geared or mostly geared group. This is because if you don't most people tend to get big egos and then when it comes time when oyu need the CC they say of we don't need it and wind up causing problems. IT is the mind set of I am so geared I don't need it that lead to Wraith Baby Syndrome. News Flash when it comes to the raids and the new 5 man content that will be dropping next patch you will require CC as you do/did for the troll heroics. So why not just keep in practice and make sure that other people you are pugging in know how it is properly done so that way when they get into a group with newer 85's they can simply show them how it is done rather then being the next line of snobbish elitist assholes. I know I for one make the groups I am tanking cc when we have it on most pulls because it makes everyone's life easier and generally it takes less time just to CC and kill the trash then it does to argue over whether or not it is needed. There shouldn't be any hunting for your CC guys it should already be on your tool bars.

Now unto my second thing, The Tanks. While I play a Prot Pally I feel we are more the mitigation tanks now were as the Druid are the Damage dealers, the warriors, are the single target debuff tanks, and the DK are the survival tanks since a properly geared and skilled DK can have higher self heals then a Pally without the CD on WG and they can survive longer. Hell even blizzard is saying that the DK's don't need much of a change to their tanking and may be modeling the other tanks after the DK...

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #421 on: September 05, 2011, 02:10:57 PM »
god fing d.... I had this big long post typed out and hit a button on my mouse which then made my browser go back a page and I lost my entire post......

i HAET HAET HAET when that happens...

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #422 on: September 05, 2011, 02:45:03 PM »
So why not just keep in practice and make sure that other people you are pugging in know how it is properly done so that way when they get into a group with newer 85's they can simply show them how it is done rather then being the next line of snobbish elitist assholes. I know I for one make the groups I am tanking cc when we have it on most pulls because it makes everyone's life easier and generally it takes less time just to CC and kill the trash then it does to argue over whether or not it is needed.

Calling people who don't play with a crutch they don't need 'snobby elitist assholes' is kind of over the top, don't you think?

I mean, maybe it's safer (it's always going to be safer), but when you've got a party who are all geared beyond the dungeon (far beyond it, in the case of 359s or even 372s at this point), being extra-careful just makes the game slow and boring.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 02:50:15 PM by meikle »

Offline Alucarddalv

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #423 on: September 05, 2011, 02:47:02 PM »
CC is not a crutch though it is a mechanic that was intended to be used in the dungeons.

Offline meikle

Re: (WoW) Why the Alliance Hate and Why is the Horde so Popular?
« Reply #424 on: September 05, 2011, 02:52:41 PM »
CC is not a crutch though it is a mechanic that was intended to be used in the dungeons.

When it ceases to be necessary (or even helpful, as in the case of people in 372 gear running through heroics), it is just a crutch.