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Author Topic: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?  (Read 26718 times)

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Offline MasterMischief

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2011, 09:20:36 AM »
Fear can lead to hate.  I wonder if that is part of the reason the word started to be used the way it has.

Offline Will

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2011, 12:21:43 PM »
Maybe having a moral objection is different than having an irrational fear, but I think the two go hand in hand often enough that objecting to the term "homophobia" is pretty much semantics.  That's fine if semantics is your thing, but I don't see how it substantially changes any discussions.  Lots of the attitude towards homosexuality seems to be born from fear of it spreading, destroying traditional values, and even (gasp) turning our loved ones into gays.  That's pretty phobic, regardless of whether the belief comes from a holy book, or one's own mind.

And I have a hard time believing that people can just have their beliefs, and not force them on others.  I'm pretty sure they won't be proselytizing on any street corners or protesting in front of gay clubs, but if nothing else, what about their children?

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2011, 12:32:37 PM »
I love the 'turned him gay' thing.  How insecure in yourself do you have to be to believe someone can just change your sexuality.

I think Will brings up a good point.  We act based on our beliefs.  So where is the line between it is o.k. to believe whatever you want and 'No, sorry.  That is so crazy that you are a danger to society'?

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2011, 01:03:35 PM »
Crazy beliefs are, like you say, only dangerous when people start acting on them. Or as Jonathan Swift put it, "a man may be allowed to keep poisons in his closet, but not to vend them about for cordials."

Offline Will

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2011, 02:20:57 PM »
But how often does that actually apply?  Is it even possible?

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2011, 02:28:24 PM »
That is kind of what I was thinking.  Beliefs and actions are not so easily untangled.  How tolerant can you be of something you believe is fundamentally wrong?

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2011, 02:39:21 PM »
I guess I would say "don't mistake your earnest conviction for license to actively make other people's lives worse".

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2011, 03:02:06 PM »
What if your earnest conviction is that you are trying to make other people's lives better?

Offline Torch

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2011, 01:15:47 PM »
And I have a hard time believing that people can just have their beliefs, and not force them on others.  I'm pretty sure they won't be proselytizing on any street corners or protesting in front of gay clubs, but if nothing else, what about their children?

Parents impart their beliefs on their children.

Good parents do the same thing, while also allowing the child his/her own views and opinions.

There is nothing wrong with passing on one's beliefs and values to one's children, that's part and parcel of being a parent. It's how you do it that matters.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 01:18:00 PM by Torch »

Offline Missy

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2011, 01:45:55 PM »
What if your earnest conviction is that you are trying to make other people's lives better?

I think most people believe what they do because they think it can benefit the world.

The question is do you respect alternative opinions or not?

That's what I think.

Offline Torch

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2011, 01:51:00 PM »
What if your earnest conviction is that you are trying to make other people's lives better?

You are free to do that as long as your actions, brought about by your beliefs and convictions, do not impede another citizen's civil rights.

For example, I live not far from a branch of Planned Parenthood. Like clockwork, every Wednesday a group of anti-abortion advocates stands on the sidewalk, holding signs that spell out their belief that abortion is wrong, the equivalent of murder, etc.  These protesters are, from what I have seen, orderly and polite, they don't yell at the clients like you may have seen on TV and in the movies. This group is exercising their belief, which they are entitled to, in a relatively harmless manner.

Now, if one of them decided to take it into his/her head to grab a 12-gauge shotgun and begin shooting the doctors and nurses inside the clinic in order to "save the babies", the right they have to their beliefs is rescinded.

I know it's an extreme example, but it does make the point.

Offline Torch

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2011, 01:54:23 PM »
The question is do you respect alternative opinions or not?


Opinions themselves do not need to be respected.

One's right to have an opinion, however, does need to be respected no matter how foul that opinion may be to you. And you are under no obligation whatsoever to support or agree with it.

Offline Ryven

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2011, 02:19:10 PM »
What if your earnest conviction is that you are trying to make other people's lives better?

The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

Offline Missy

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2011, 03:04:18 PM »
Opinions themselves do not need to be respected.

One's right to have an opinion, however, does need to be respected no matter how foul that opinion may be to you. And you are under no obligation whatsoever to support or agree with it.

This is probably closer to what I was trying to say.

Though I think it might be easier for people to get along if you "respect" the opinion itself. Agree to Disagree and whatnot.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2011, 03:40:57 PM »
Those same well mamnered protesters vote for politicians who want to close that facility, defund it and ultimately make it illegal.

Offline Torch

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2011, 03:45:38 PM »
Those same well mamnered protesters vote for politicians who want to close that facility, defund it and ultimately make it illegal.

Um.....yes. I'm sure they do.

And they have every right to do so.

Mind you, I don't agree with them. But I firmly believe they have the right to their opinions, beliefs, and the right to peaceful protest, just like any other group.  And I'll be voting for the politicians who will stand firm on the right of a woman to choose what she does with her own body.

Offline Torch

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2011, 03:57:58 PM »
Though I think it might be easier for people to get along if you "respect" the opinion itself. Agree to Disagree and whatnot.

Yeah, that sounds nice, all kumbaya, can't we all get along, and what-not...

But you would be asking a person of color to respect the opinion of a Ku Klux Klansman.

Or asking a person of Jewish faith to respect the opinion of a White Supremacist.

Or asking a Christian to respect the opinion of Osama Bin Laden.

See what I mean?

I don't have to respect any opinion that goes against my beliefs. All I have to do is respect one's right to have that opinion.  There is a famous quote (usually misattributed to Voltaire) which reads:

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Offline Missy

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2011, 04:44:00 PM »
I think the attitude of the person your disagreeing with counts as well.

I mean for example:

My mum would just say Homosexuality is "gross" (because of her religious beliefs)

Whereas as my friend "Philipe" (actually just Phil) would take more of an agree to disagree attitude. Much more respectful despite being of the same religious creed as my mum.

So of course you would take a stronger attitude towards a Nazi, a KKK, or Amerocentric. But so long as they take an attitude of respect toward you there's really no reason why you can't just agree to disagree and be friends. Irregardless of your differences.

So I guess as long as they're respectful to you, then it's nothing to worry about.

Offline meikle

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2011, 04:48:17 PM »
Not all opinions deserve to be respected, really.

I see no reason to respect someone who has internalized hatred as part of their personal paradigm.

Offline Missy

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2011, 05:00:22 PM »
Not all opinions deserve to be respected, really.

I see no reason to respect someone who has internalized hatred as part of their personal paradigm.

I don't respect my mothers point of view.

I'm saying there's no need to be aggressive if they're merely agreeing to disagree.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 05:36:04 PM by MCsc »

Offline Envious

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2011, 06:03:20 PM »
My question is: Being against homosexuality is/should be considered homophobia or not?

I have personally never encountered a person against homosexuality who wasn't homophobic. Because of my experiences, I think those who are against homosexuality should be considered homophobic. I do find that most of the homophobic people I personally know are polite and civil towards homosexuals, but quickly exit their presence without making much of a scene. I am uncertain if homophobia is the right term for it, as it's not the extreme GOD HATES FAGS stuff I see in the media.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 06:05:44 PM by Envious »

Offline Missy

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2011, 07:22:33 PM »
I have personally never encountered a person against homosexuality who wasn't homophobic. Because of my experiences, I think those who are against homosexuality should be considered homophobic. I do find that most of the homophobic people I personally know are polite and civil towards homosexuals, but quickly exit their presence without making much of a scene. I am uncertain if homophobia is the right term for it, as it's not the extreme GOD HATES FAGS stuff I see in the media.

I can't imagine Phil refusing to converse with a homosexual. It's just not his style, he'd be respectful too.

Offline errantwandering

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2011, 04:17:26 PM »
I come from a deeply Catholic family, but decided to reject that faith and forge my own path, eventually becoming pagan.  My entire family (and for practicing Catholics that think birth control is morally wrong, that's a lot of people) felt that I was wrong in doing so, told me so, and tried to convince me to change my mind.  When I didn't, they eventually dropped it, accepted who I am, and went on with all our lives.  They don't talk religion with me any longer, but are still always happy to see me, and are sure to pour on lots of guilt if I don't come home for Christmas.  Likewise, one of my cousins is a lesbian.  All of them objected on moral grounds, tried to talk her out of it, etc etc, and once it became clear that she wasn't budging, it was who she was, they dropped it.  They do not discuss relationships with her, but are still always happy to see her, and even anyone she happens to be with at the time.  They still care about her, even if they disagree with what she is doing.

You can object on moral or religious grounds without hating the person whose behavior you object to.

Offline Kaoru

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2011, 03:05:58 PM »
It is pointless bringing out the definitions of the word. When somebody says you are homophobic for not being accepting of homosexuality, they may or may not actually mean that you are irrationally terrified of homosexuals.

Most people do not think before they speak. Even less actually say what they mean. By homophobic, they could mean ignorant, they could me irrationally terrified, they could mean stupid... the point is basically the same.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2011, 12:58:07 AM »
I just want to discuss to what extent being against homosexuality is or isn't homophobic.

I'm sorry, but as yet they haven't published any clinical diagnostic criteria for homophobia. Since it's pretty much a made-up word, feel free to make up your own mind as to whether or not it applies under any given situation.

Are we seriously just arguing semantics here?