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Author Topic: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?  (Read 26815 times)

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Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #150 on: March 22, 2012, 07:28:44 AM »
I thought that was called Harknessexual... :D

Offline Sabre

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #151 on: March 22, 2012, 02:42:55 PM »
In theory though, she's correct. Just look at the adult film industry. Even though their target audience is straight men (or couples), almost every mainstream adult film, without exception, has a lesbian or F/F scene.

Is that their target audience?  I think it is more useful to be specific - their target audience is (mostly) straight men who are willing to pay for these films.  This demographic, thus, is considerably smaller than a more comprehensive audience like straight men in general.  Homosexuality, however, is not what is being marketed and sold with lesbian scenes.  Most of them are as fake and ridiculous as straight scenes.  Gertrude Stein was right in one way, the feminine form is more pleasing to straight men (who are willing to pay for porn).  I doubt as a lesbian she speaks without an obvious bias in that choice, though.

Food for thought - T.V. dramas and serials, and romance novels.  How prevalent are M/M relationships and scenes in them?  In the last few I've watched, "The Wire", "Tudors", "Rome", "Spartacus", and so on, there always seems to be a token gay couple.  What is the target demographic of T.V. and romance novels?

Women.  Specifically housewives with the free time to watch these shows as they air or younger women with the income to spend on buying subscriptions/books.

Offline DeMalachine

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #152 on: March 22, 2012, 03:01:53 PM »

Quote
Trisexual \ˈtrī-sek-sh(ə-)wəl \ A person who has absolutely no sexual preference and readily partakes in all forms of sexual perversion. The "tri" of course is the fact that a trisexual's attraction (although gender blind) ranges from human, animal, or inanimate object. Live, dead, or grotesquely disfigured/unattractive --it doesn't matter in the eyes of a trisexual. They have an "If it feels good --do it" philosophy when it comes to fulfilling their sexual needs.

Well, damn.

Do they call it 'tri-sexual' cos it involves tri-ing pretty much anything, then?

Offline Torch

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #153 on: March 22, 2012, 03:43:43 PM »
Is that their target audience?  I think it is more useful to be specific - their target audience is (mostly) straight men who are willing to pay for these films.

I'm not sure I see your point. The target consumers of any commodity or good or service are those who are willing to pay for it. Such specificity does not need to be stated so obviously. I highly doubt anyone would say "The target consumers for cosmetics are women who are willing to pay for them." or "The target audience for the Twilight series are tween girls who are willing to pay to see the movies or read the books." You are picking unnecessary nits.

 
Quote
Food for thought - T.V. dramas and serials, and romance novels.  How prevalent are M/M relationships and scenes in them?  In the last few I've watched, "The Wire", "Tudors", "Rome", "Spartacus", and so on, there always seems to be a token gay couple.  What is the target demographic of T.V. and romance novels?

Women.  Specifically housewives with the free time to watch these shows as they air or younger women with the income to spend on buying subscriptions/books.

The only thing I would disagree with is your supposition that the target audience of "The Wire" are housewives. I'm sure that would be news to the producers of the series and the distributors of the show in syndication.

In any event, one of the fastest growing segments of fiction is M/M romance or erotica. A majority of the authors of this genre are women, and the majority of the readers and purchasers are also women. Straight women.

Offline Singularity

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #154 on: March 22, 2012, 04:43:44 PM »
If one considers homosexuality or any sexual orientation to be morally wrong, then one is free to not practice that orientation and to not associate with gays/lesbians/etc. in optional social circles. You may as well stick your head right into a sand dune but there's nothing inherently reprehensible about this outlook.

However any and all belief which prompts one to address a homosexual individual on matters not pertaining to sex differently than a hetero is bigoted. Any and all belief which prompts one to take an action that might affect the life of a homosexual individual negatively because they are gay/lesbian/etc. is repugnant.

Speaking as someone who is straight as a picket fence.
[/font]

Offline Sabre

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #155 on: March 22, 2012, 04:44:04 PM »
I'm not sure I see your point. The target consumers of any commodity or good or service are those who are willing to pay for it. Such specificity does not need to be stated so obviously. I highly doubt anyone would say "The target consumers for cosmetics are women who are willing to pay for them." or "The target audience for the Twilight series are tween girls who are willing to pay to see the movies or read the books." You are picking unnecessary nits.

Anyone who are not producers and directors that are following demand at least.  The distinction is somewhat important to the issue of F/F scenes in porn films, and perhaps of the utmost importance to the porn industry in general as they face the crisis of internet piracy and digital distribution.  The reason I brought it up is just to point out that this is pornography we are still dealing with, and the reason these scenes exist is because of the men willing to pay (i.e. having involuted posturing) to be titillated by what they already know: boobs and pussy are hot, yo.  Basically, I would change:

"Even though their target audience is straight men (or couples), almost every mainstream adult film, without exception, has a lesbian or F/F scene."

to

"Because their target audience is straight men (or couples), almost every mainstream adult film, without exception, has a lesbian or F/F scene."

But that this makes F/F more acceptable than M/M isn't clear.  Especially when the now massive MILF and 'amateur' sector is practically bereft of F/F (but plenty of webcam masturbation).  Personally, I think the only reason Ms. Stein would come to the conclusion was because in her time women were still an untapped and mostly subservient pool of consumers unable to affect demand in a male-dominated world of 40's porn. 

 
Quote
The only thing I would disagree with is your supposition that the target audience of "The Wire" are housewives. I'm sure that would be news to the producers of the series and the distributors of the show in syndication.

I'd disagree, too, and I only meant to say the major proportion of T.V. viewership is made up of women.  But it wouldn't be news to the producers - after all, they were constantly fearing they'd have to cancel the brilliant show due to lack of viewers despite the glowing reviews and all-star BET lineup.  Interestingly, one can compare the lack of popularity of 'The Wire' with 'Desperate Housewives' (which incidentally also got a gay couple later on).

Quote
In any event, one of the fastest growing segments of fiction is M/M romance or erotica. A majority of the authors of this genre are women, and the majority of the readers and purchasers are also women. Straight women.

Exactly.  Which brings us back to Stein's point about which is more acceptable.  Men like women with squishy jubblies and some wouldn't have scruples about seeing them pushed against another set.  Women like men with depth of emotion and infatuation and some wouldn't have scruples about seeing that matched with another man to see it (which is the reason slash fandom for male characters who are officially not together in their universes is so popular among female fans I think).  I don't think either is seen as more or less acceptable as a whole, but among certain audiences one can prove better masturbation aid than the other.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 04:46:14 PM by Sabre »

Offline alxnjsh

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #156 on: March 22, 2012, 08:29:34 PM »
If one considers homosexuality or any sexual orientation to be morally wrong, then one is free to not practice that orientation and to not associate with gays/lesbians/etc. in optional social circles. You may as well stick your head right into a sand dune but there's nothing inherently reprehensible about this outlook.

However any and all belief which prompts one to address a homosexual individual on matters not pertaining to sex differently than a hetero is bigoted. Any and all belief which prompts one to take an action that might affect the life of a homosexual individual negatively because they are gay/lesbian/etc. is repugnant.

Speaking as someone who is straight as a picket fence.


Hypothetically, if I were to say that I consider being Jewish to be morally wrong, is there nothing morally reprehensible about this statement? What if I were to say that I don't like people who are black? I don't mean to push back because I agree with your following statement regarding repugnance.

I believe the crux of this entire argument rests in the fact that contrary to research and the testimony of millions of lesbians, gays and bisexuals, some individuals still consider LGB to be a "chosen lifestyle." As if people would willingly "choose" to be considered deviants by a large number of people. We excuse people's ignorance of LGB individuals because they don't believe in the lifestyle. There are very few arguments that can be made to dissuade people that have this belief.

I stand by my statement strongly that if a person is "against homosexuality" that they are homophobic just as a person who is "against blacks" is racist or a person who is "against Jews" is anti-semitic. With that said, there are a number of racists and anti-semites that would never harm someone of a different race or a person who is Jewish. That doesn't mean they are free from being labeled as such.

Offline Singularity

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #157 on: March 22, 2012, 08:33:06 PM »
If any friend of mine were to declare that they do not like gays, I would instruct them to keep that to themselves and only themselves if they wished to remain friends.

That's my outlook.

Offline Shjade

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #158 on: March 22, 2012, 09:10:13 PM »
I stand by my statement strongly that if a person is "against homosexuality" that they are homophobic just as a person who is "against blacks" is racist or a person who is "against Jews" is anti-semitic.

I don't understand. If someone "against blacks" is racist, and someone "against Jews" is anti-semitic (semitist?), why is someone "against homosexuality" homophobic instead of, say, homosexualist?

Where does the "phobic" come from here?

Offline Haloriel

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #159 on: March 22, 2012, 09:29:56 PM »
Hmm.  Good point.  Being against something, or in disagreement with a set of actions could have absolutely nothing to do with the actual use of the word 'phobia' which, I personally think is tossed around just a bit too much.

Offline Sabre

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #160 on: March 22, 2012, 09:35:41 PM »
I don't understand. If someone "against blacks" is racist, and someone "against Jews" is anti-semitic (semitist?), why is someone "against homosexuality" homophobic instead of, say, homosexualist?

Where does the "phobic" come from here?

Words usually capture the zeitgeist of the time they appear in.  Racism and Antisemitism are -ism terms born in the early 20th century when political and social theories were all over the place, and thus denoted a belief that affected political stances and scientific theories.

Homophobia, like homosexuality, was developed during a time where pop psychology was all the rage, and where everything was beginning to be defined in terms that reflected this.  So as homosexuality was being de-listed as a mental disorder, homophobia was taken up as a term to refer to detractors in the same manner.


Today the zeitgeist is about choice and genetic predisposition - thus the issue with using the phrase 'lifestyle choice' and the arguments appealing to evolutionary biology, the mental health of repression, and the nature-vs-nurture arguments involving young homosexuals.  And of course we're finally right, until the next philosophical shift in popular discourse that is.

Offline Shjade

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #161 on: March 22, 2012, 10:23:39 PM »
Even if it's a link to pop psychology, why "phobia?" Sure, it definitely applies to some people - the proverbial hostile closeted individuals lashing out at those who represent something they're denying about themselves - fine, okay. But there are also people who hate homosexuals in the same way that some hate blacks/asians/etc.: they're not afraid that, deep down inside, they're black, too. They just hate. Maybe sometimes that's derived from fear, but I'd wager it's more often simply how they were raised ("These people are different from you. You're better than they are." And so on.).

I find it hard to believe the only applicable "pop psychology" term for this has to be one linked to fear. Isn't there some scientific name for rage that would've fit better, if that was the reasoning for the term's development?

Edit: Weird that there doesn't seem to be an equivalent Greek term used for rage/anger in psychology; apparently they just use "rage" and "anger." Hunh...
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 10:26:13 PM by Shjade »

Offline Sabre

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #162 on: March 22, 2012, 11:11:43 PM »
Well, the term originally was used to refer to an irrational fear of being thought homosexual by others.  Around the 70's and 80's the term really took off when gay activism de-radicalized to shift their polemic from revolutionary terms to demands for normalcy in public and judicial matters.  With that drive for normalcy came the need to combat detractors, and the most useful ad hominem was thus a term that denoted irrationality and social abnormality - you wanted to be normal, and a phobia was anything but.

Quote
Edit: Weird that there doesn't seem to be an equivalent Greek term used for rage/anger in psychology; apparently they just use "rage" and "anger." Hunh...

Rabies was already taken when they started dishing out new terms for mental disorders.  Rage/anger however has currency as everyday words, whereas a Greek or Latin name for a disorder is automatically negative (and thus useful).  It's why the phrase was almost instantly adopted and very rarely applied self-willingly on oneself whereas 'racist' took several decades to turn sour and derogatory in the eyes of the general public (when an -ism was all the rage).

Offline alxnjsh

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #163 on: March 24, 2012, 06:02:27 PM »
I don't understand. If someone "against blacks" is racist, and someone "against Jews" is anti-semitic (semitist?), why is someone "against homosexuality" homophobic instead of, say, homosexualist?

Where does the "phobic" come from here?

Per the Merriam-Webster, the definition of homophobia includes three separate components:

Irrational fear of...aversion to...and/or...discriminates against.

The definition has evolved to mean more than fear.

Offline athenaspupil

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #164 on: March 31, 2012, 04:48:12 PM »
what i would really like to know is how this conversation got started. I mean did your mother randomly blurt out a gay slur or did the conversation naturally go to that topic and your mother was just voicing her opinion on it.

Offline YaoiRolePlay

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #165 on: March 31, 2012, 05:11:56 PM »
I think phobia has been used because people really were afraid of homosexuals. At least in the 20th century. And many people still are. Take a look at things like Boys Beware People believed that the word homosexual was the same thing as the word pedophile. Thus fear. Fear is a very strong motivator. It's played a huge role in the massive history of humanity. Thus when you associate homosexual with pedophile creating fear, you get a more effective response of people hating homosexuality.

Homophobia came out of this context from gay communities at the time because people really were afraid of homosexuals. But the word has evolved to mean intolerant in the same way the word racist means intolerant. The word stuck.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 05:13:19 PM by YaoiRolePlay »

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #166 on: April 02, 2012, 06:39:19 AM »
"Even though their target audience is straight men (or couples), almost every mainstream adult film, without exception, has a lesbian or F/F scene."

to

"Because their target audience is straight men (or couples), almost every mainstream adult film, without exception, has a lesbian or F/F scene."

But that this makes F/F more acceptable than M/M isn't clear.  Especially when the now massive MILF and 'amateur' sector is practically bereft of F/F (but plenty of webcam masturbation).  Personally, I think the only reason Ms. Stein would come to the conclusion was because in her time women were still an untapped and mostly subservient pool of consumers unable to affect demand in a male-dominated world of 40's porn. 

It's still more or less untapped, though they've been slowly realizing women watch porn too. I'm still waiting for them to make a porn that appeals to me as an individual. As a couple, most any porn will do, but I'm pickier about what I watch solo.

Offline Etah dna Evol

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #167 on: April 25, 2012, 10:07:07 PM »
Dear OP, semantics aside: yes.

Offline Sophronius

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #168 on: April 26, 2012, 07:26:26 AM »
While I'm sure it's not the case, the use of the term "-phobia" when describing prejudice against homosexuals does make a certain degree of sense when compared with racist language.  When one looks at the main trends in racist rhetoric, there tends to be a mixture of fear and of a sense of biological superiority - Jews are weak and cowardly, but control all the money and are cunning; blacks are slow and stupid, but are strong and will commit crimes against you; hispanics are lazy and can't speak English, but are taking away jobs (note: I don't agree with these views, but I'm trying to present a simplified version of the rhetoric normally associated with these groups).  While homophobic rhetoric tends to be more fear based than to argue any superiority - gays are destroying marriage or gays are corrupting/converting the youth - and when homophobic rhetoric does touch on the issue of superiority, it tends to be a religiously based superiority and since religiously based superiority from these groups are not only targeted at homosexuals but also at those who support civil liberties for homosexuals and against completely unrelated groups (i.e. people who are of other religions, atheists, people who don't care about church, people who decry censorship, etc.) it does not seem so special or problematic when targeted at homosexuals.

Of course, that fear implies a sense of superiority (what makes heterosexual life so special that it needs protecting?), but it does not directly state it.  This may also be a result of the times - racism was largely a concern of politics 50-60 years ago and it was deemed more socially acceptable (in parts of the country) to say things like "Whites are superior to Blacks" whereas homosexual rights and homophobia have been more in issue starting only about 35 years ago, after the civil rights movement and after it stopped being socially acceptable to state, on the national stages, one group's inate superiority to another (just a theory).  On the other hand, words and language evolves, so it's really not a big deal.

Offline Etah dna Evol

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #169 on: April 29, 2012, 05:54:54 PM »
Homophobe, while not entirely semantically accurate simply implies that the hate of homosexuals comes from a place to be fear. I have often found to be true.

Offline Shjade

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #170 on: April 30, 2012, 02:30:58 AM »
Homophobe, while not entirely semantically accurate simply implies that the hate of homosexuals comes from a place to be fear. I have often found to be true.

Being against homosexuality != hate of homosexuals.

Offline Will

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #171 on: April 30, 2012, 07:50:01 AM »
Being against homosexuality != hate of homosexuals.

Is there a practical difference?  That whole "hate the sin, not the sinner" trope wears a little thin, especially when the "sin" is something that makes up a fundamental part of who you are.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 07:51:08 AM by Will »

Offline Trieste

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #172 on: April 30, 2012, 08:33:14 AM »
It wears thin enough that you can see the bullshit behind it, even.

If you are against homosexuality. If you honestly believe that someone else's lifestyle that doesn't do any harm whatsoever in itself is somehow 'wrong', I think you need to take a look at your life and figure out what is so miserable that you feel the need to dictate others'. It is sincerely no one else's business what any man or woman does with their affections and their genitals (with another consenting adult blah blah blah disclaimer).

Offline Shjade

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #173 on: April 30, 2012, 04:20:11 PM »
No, Will/Trieste, you're missing the point. You can be against something/think it's wrong without hating it.

I think speeding is wrong. I don't hate people who drive over the speed limit. I just think they shouldn't do it.

See how that works?

There's no need to make it such a personal ZOMG YOU MUST HAET IT thing. It's not a black and white issue. Plenty of room in-between for people who just don't like the idea/feel uncomfortable about it/are okay with it as long as they don't have to see or hear about it/etc.

Thus: being against homosexuality != hate of homosexuals.

Offline Will

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #174 on: April 30, 2012, 05:14:41 PM »
Speeding != being gay.  The being is the important part.