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Author Topic: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?  (Read 26768 times)

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Offline Trieste

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #125 on: March 09, 2012, 11:40:57 PM »
Sexuality itself is a complex issue that will continue to evolve over and over. To me, allowing same-sex marriage is not as complicated. It doesn't affect my marriage if Sue and Joan down the street get hitched. I think that making same-sex marriage laws about sexuality as a whole is spreading the issue and overcomplicating it.

However, I also feel that population growth itself is not important. In fact, I have made the personal decision not to reproduce; I would rather, if I ever do decide to have children, adopt or foster. While not passing judgement on those who do choose to have children, I would feel socially irresponsible adding more to our already-huge population.

I am not alone. I'm too lazy to grab the sources, but it's been shown that the more educated women are, the fewer children they decide to have, and that holds true for women in Africa, in Afghanistan, in the US, across all sorts of cultures. You can probably Google the source if you want more info.

On the other hand, some of the most stable family units I've known have been led by same-sex parents. I grew up with a girl who had two moms. She was the biological daughter of one mother (who got a gay male friend to donate sperm) and the adopted daughter of the other mother. She's one of the most well-adjusted people I know. On the other hand, it was unusual in my schools - all of them, and I went to several - for children of hetero couples to have both parents still at home. Divorces and separations are pretty common. So I think that the focus on one man, one woman, the focus on a mom and a dad to be the center of the family unit, has become somewhat outdated.

Those are my views, from my personal experience.

Offline Samael

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #126 on: March 09, 2012, 11:43:38 PM »
Yes, of course I realize that societal pressure might have been what was holding her back from her impulses.

Yes, I would prefer that she not do what she has done to our family which is essentially tear it apart.

But (as I mentioned) she's a self-absorbed jerk, so that might have more to do with it.

As someone who comes out of a family where my father was constantly replacing the last model with a new version, I can empathize.
I can also say that being a Jerk, like Oni mentions, has really nothing to do with sexual orientation, and just shows these people being inconsiderate idiots, no matter anything else.

That said, sorry that you had to deal with this stuff.
It's never fun to see your family being wrecked by a single person's behaviour.
I'm wishing you and your family the best.

Offline Hurricane

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2012, 11:51:21 PM »
As someone who comes out of a family where my father was constantly replacing the last model with a new version, I can empathize.
I can also say that being a Jerk, like Oni mentions, has really nothing to do with sexual orientation, and just shows these people being inconsiderate idiots, no matter anything else.

That said, sorry that you had to deal with this stuff.
It's never fun to see your family being wrecked by a single person's behaviour.
I'm wishing you and your family the best.

You are very kind, and I appreciate that a lot. :)

Offline Serephino

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #128 on: March 10, 2012, 01:36:21 AM »
My boyfriend's mom did the same thing.  She had 3 husbands and 3 kids before she brought home a woman.  It didn't really cause the trouble you describe...  And then shortly after I met him, 'Connie' traded 'Joy' in for a newer female model.  Although, I doubt the behavior has anything to do with sexuality.  Connie is just flat out a narcissist, and gets bored every few years.  We're waiting for 'Melissa' to get dumped because last time we went for a visit we could tell the interest was starting to fade.

There are definitely many factors in the decline of the birthrate.  One of them is modern medicine.  Couples had lots of kids to enure at least a few of them would survive to adulthood because of a high infant mortality rate.  It isn't necessary anymore.  The economy plays a huge roll too.  Why have a kid you can't afford to support?  I could go find a surrogate if I really wanted to, but we're barely scratching by as is. 

Offline Shjade

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #129 on: March 10, 2012, 10:27:22 PM »
It's already been said before, but I thought I'd boil this down to the core concept trying to be conveyed.

And that's the point - the more the social climate is permissive of that kind of behavior, the more people will engage in it.

This may be true. However, if the social climate is more restrictive of "that kind of behavior," that in no way impacts the likelihood of people engaging in its opposite.

Being less permissive of homosexual relationships may quash those relationships, but it will not cause people who are not attracted to the opposite sex to become attracted to the opposite sex. Reproductive efforts of a coital nature are unlikely to be affected by such policies either way.

In other words, while your point may be true, it is irrelevant to your argument.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #130 on: March 10, 2012, 11:05:03 PM »
I do not think we are in danger of the human race dying out.  At least not from a declining birth rate.  In fact, with the pace we are using up resources, maybe we could use a declinging birth rate.  Aha!  Our survival depends on more childless marriages.  Gay marriages for everyone!

Offline Serephino

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #131 on: March 11, 2012, 01:47:28 AM »
The llama has a point...

Offline Bayushi

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #132 on: March 11, 2012, 05:55:43 AM »
Couples had lots of kids to enure at least a few of them would survive to adulthood because of a high infant mortality rate.  It isn't necessary anymore.  The economy plays a huge roll too.  Why have a kid you can't afford to support?  I could go find a surrogate if I really wanted to, but we're barely scratching by as is.
Couples largely had large numbers of children due to needing them to work and help support the family. Particularly in farming communities.

This is not nearly so necessary nowadays, with so much automation available to handle matters like harvesting crops.

I've thought on the topic a fair bit, and think I've come to a bit of a conclusion, personally: I don't hate or fear homosexuality, just many of it's practitioners. Especially the militant activist types.

Live and let live. People don't have to agree with you to have enough value to deserve at least common courtesy. Society has fallen far since the 1950s with the lack of civility and willingness to talk or debate (on either side). If your side is so correct, then you should be able to debate it, right? In no way is any debate settled, ever. Not in politics, not in the matter of homosexuality, not in Anthropogenic Climate Change, nothing. Science is not finite, and people are not either. Expect that there are always going to be people who disagree. Don't like it? Tough shit, we live in America (most of us here, anyway). It isn't illegal to have one's own opinion, yet.

Offline Shjade

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #133 on: March 11, 2012, 11:35:07 AM »
I do not think we are in danger of the human race dying out.  At least not from a declining birth rate.  In fact, with the pace we are using up resources, maybe we could use a declinging birth rate.  Aha!  Our survival depends on more childless marriages.  Gay marriages for everyone!
Can I just stay single and sexually inactive? Not really interested in a marriage of any flavor. :|

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #134 on: March 11, 2012, 02:17:47 PM »
Can I just stay single and sexually inactive? Not really interested in a marriage of any flavor. :|

Nope.  Sorry.  It is what is best for society or bust.  At least it seems that sort of morality is the new pink.

Honestly, I feel it is just grasping at straws.  Any excuse to maintain the status quo because change is scarey.

Offline ThinGirl00

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #135 on: March 20, 2012, 11:29:42 PM »
Well, I disagree with your girlfriend. I am against homosexuality but I am in no way homophobic. Over the years, I have had several gay friends. As the bible says, "hate the sin, love the sinner." While I might not agree with their choice of lifestyle, I am not going to condemn them for it either.

Offline Will

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #136 on: March 21, 2012, 12:15:52 AM »
What exactly does it mean to be "against" homosexuality?

Offline Bayushi

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #137 on: March 21, 2012, 12:42:50 AM »
What exactly does it mean to be "against" homosexuality?
The answer to that largely depends on who you are asking.

Fundamentalist Christians may be against homosexuality based on religious dogma (both Testaments).

For example:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

However, most who rely on this passage either stop reading (doubtful), or choose to ignore anything else. The next verse says:
1 Corinthians 6:11 - "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."


Then you have your straight up bigots. They hate homosexuality because they need a group or organization to blame everything on, instead of learning to take responsibility for one's own failings.

Of course, there are some bigoted people who have somewhat legitimate reasons to hate homosexuality and homosexuals base on past experience. Unfortunately, they are unable to distinguish between an individual and a group. Often times, gay rights activists inspire this hatred with their over-the-top methods and rhetoric.


Finally, there are those who just plain disagree with the practice of homosexuality, but tend to keep it to themselves. I've known a number of Libertarians like this: They don't like the thought of a dude buggering another dude, but they're not going to try and stop someone else from doing whatever they want (provided it's legal).


I'm sure there are other reasons why people may be against homosexuality, but these are the ones that come to mind.

Offline Will

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #138 on: March 21, 2012, 01:09:00 AM »
I know a lot of reasons why someone might be against homosexuality, but I'm more interested in what it actually means to be against it.  In practice.

Being "against homosexuality" has a negative effect regardless of whether you're out and in-your-face about it or not.  Even if you keep it to yourself and think you're being civil, that's one less person being vocal about equality.  That's one more person to justify every bigot who wants to maintain the status quo, who wants to make bad gay jokes and belittle others, who wants to discriminate against someone behind their back.

Is that homophobic?  I guess not, if you want to go by the roots of the word itself.  But playing semantics doesn't make silence any less harmful.  Whatever reason someone might have for being against homosexuality, it has an impact.  No matter how accommodating you might be, you are enabling those who want to deprive others of basic human equality.

Offline Samael

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #139 on: March 21, 2012, 01:27:48 AM »
Well, I disagree with your girlfriend. I am against homosexuality but I am in no way homophobic. Over the years, I have had several gay friends. As the bible says, "hate the sin, love the sinner." While I might not agree with their choice of lifestyle, I am not going to condemn them for it either.

Everytime someone says that, it grates on me.
There isn't any choice in that matter. And just because we have bi-sexuals that can go either way, doesn't mean that suddenly all gay people are having a choice in it as well. They have as little a choice as straight people do.
People don't suddenly decide "Hey, instead of this girl with big tits I've been into for the last few years, whose curves made me masturbate furiously, I'll now instead go for Greg McBeardude. Fuck yeah."
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 01:29:40 AM by Samael »

Offline vtboy

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #140 on: March 21, 2012, 04:42:05 AM »
I'm sure there are other reasons why people may be against homosexuality, but these are the ones that come to mind.

Gertrude Stein put her finger on another rason. She told Hemingway that there would always be more tolerance for female homosexuals than for male homosexuals because the sexual practices of the latter were more aesthetically unappealing.

Well, Gertie may have had her own biases on the subject.

Offline Torch

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #141 on: March 21, 2012, 06:11:50 AM »
Gertrude Stein put her finger on another rason. She told Hemingway that there would always be more tolerance for female homosexuals than for male homosexuals because the sexual practices of the latter were more aesthetically unappealing.

No offense to Gertrude Stein, but I'd much rather watch the two hot guys in my avatar get it on than watch her and Alice Toklas knock boots.  ::)

Offline vtboy

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #142 on: March 21, 2012, 06:42:16 AM »
No offense to Gertrude Stein, but I'd much rather watch the two hot guys in my avatar get it on than watch her and Alice Toklas knock boots.  ::)

Wel, I'm sure Gertie would accept the adage about exceptions proving the rule. How would you feel about watching former Senator Larry Craig and Representative Barney Frank?

Offline Torch

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #143 on: March 21, 2012, 07:06:46 AM »
Wel, I'm sure Gertie would accept the adage about exceptions proving the rule. How would you feel about watching former Senator Larry Craig and Representative Barney Frank?

That would be equally aesthetically unappealing. I did say two hot guys. :P

In theory though, she's correct. Just look at the adult film industry. Even though their target audience is straight men (or couples), almost every mainstream adult film, without exception, has a lesbian or F/F scene.

Just try and find an M/M scene in the same type of film. Answer: You can't. Gay or M/M scenes are only found in gay porn, or films that cater to a niche market.

In many folks' minds, lesbian sex is hot....gay sex is not.

Offline RedEve

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #144 on: March 21, 2012, 07:41:12 AM »
My question is: Being against homosexuality is/should be considered homophobia or not? You know my point of view, I'd like to know yours and your arguments. This is not a discussion about how right or wrong are homophobia and homosexuality, (I'm against the first and I have no issues with the second) I just want to discuss to what extent being against homosexuality is or isn't homophobic.

Being against homosexuality is by definition irrational. It has always existed, as long as humanity has been around.
You might as well be against the sun rising in the East. So to me the origin of that aversion (religious in nature or not) does not factor into it.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #145 on: March 21, 2012, 09:09:57 AM »
People don't suddenly decide "Hey, instead of this girl with big tits I've been into for the last few years, whose curves made me masturbate furiously, I'll now instead go for Greg McBeardude. Fuck yeah."

AGH water up the nose! Samael! *dies*

Offline RedEve

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #146 on: March 21, 2012, 09:31:38 AM »
People don't suddenly decide "Hey, instead of this girl with big tits I've been into for the last few years, whose curves made me masturbate furiously, I'll now instead go for Greg McBeardude. Fuck yeah."

You laugh, but I have known people who found out they were gay through porn. :P
In that, after months (or even years) of watching girl-on-boy porn, they had to admit to themselves that it was actually the guy that got them off.

Offline Samael

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #147 on: March 21, 2012, 07:51:32 PM »
AGH water up the nose! Samael! *dies*
Isn't that the most burrrning sensation ever? ;)
I hate when that happens *grins*

You laugh, but I have known people who found out they were gay through porn. :P
In that, after months (or even years) of watching girl-on-boy porn, they had to admit to themselves that it was actually the guy that got them off.
I think it's simply because people don't start being 100% sure "yep, I am X." Or "Yep, I am Y." Often it's a rocky road to actually accept facets about yourself, especially when it comes to sexuality, because no one wants to be "different from the norm", due to the stigmata associated with it.
But, I think it really comes down that it's just not a clear cut thing.
Took me ages to accept my bi-sexuality.

Offline Shjade

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #148 on: March 21, 2012, 10:31:10 PM »
Took me ages to accept my bi-sexuality.

If you think that was hard, wait until you find out you're actually tri-sexual in about four years.

I don't envy you the acclimation period on that one!

Offline Samael

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #149 on: March 21, 2012, 11:34:57 PM »
If you think that was hard, wait until you find out you're actually tri-sexual in about four years.

I don't envy you the acclimation period on that one!

Quote
Trisexual \ˈtrī-sek-sh(ə-)wəl \ A person who has absolutely no sexual preference and readily partakes in all forms of sexual perversion. The "tri" of course is the fact that a trisexual's attraction (although gender blind) ranges from human, animal, or inanimate object. Live, dead, or grotesquely disfigured/unattractive --it doesn't matter in the eyes of a trisexual. They have an "If it feels good --do it" philosophy when it comes to fulfilling their sexual needs.
Well, damn.