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Author Topic: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?  (Read 26730 times)

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Offline Avis habilis

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #100 on: March 09, 2012, 01:52:16 PM »
It does cost to share it.

What does it cost?

Offline Hurricane

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #101 on: March 09, 2012, 01:59:04 PM »
I would argue that western civilization is the most peaceful, most technologically advanced and most prosperous expression of human culture that the Earth has ever seen. Western Europe and the United States have more freedom, more sexuality equality, better political representation, more food, better tech, more opportunities... than any other period in history.

And to be frank better than other civilizations that are currently prominent in the world today. I have two daughters, and I would fight to the death to protect them from having to live under a repressive political or religious Middle Eastern regime or under the thumb of the totalitarian policies of Communist China.

But I believe that there is a very real danger of aspects of that civilization declining or disappearing if we outpace our progressive sensibilities outpace our ability to reproduce.

Put simply, you might love French culture. But unless France can correct it's current birthrate issues, within 50 years there may no longer be a 'France' to love.


Offline Iniquitous

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #102 on: March 09, 2012, 02:00:48 PM »


I like how Trieste said it best. No one - not you, not me, not Joe Blow down the street or Sanctimonious Santorum has the right to tell someone they cannot love and be with whomever they want.

If you don't like homosexuals, don't be homosexual.
If you don't like gay marriage, then don't get gay married.

You do not  have the right to be in anyone else's bedroom, so stop trying.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #103 on: March 09, 2012, 02:02:48 PM »
But I believe that there is a very real danger of aspects of that civilization declining or disappearing if we outpace our progressive sensibilities outpace our ability to reproduce.

I'm tolerably sure people in countries where gay marriage has been legalized have continued to have hetero sex & produce children.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #104 on: March 09, 2012, 02:02:57 PM »
I would argue that western civilization is the most peaceful, most technologically advanced and most prosperous expression of human culture that the Earth has ever seen. Western Europe and the United States have more freedom, more sexuality equality, better political representation, more food, better tech, more opportunities... than any other period in history.

And to be frank better than other civilizations that are currently prominent in the world today. I have two daughters, and I would fight to the death to protect them from having to live under a repressive political or religious Middle Eastern regime or under the thumb of the totalitarian policies of Communist China.

But I believe that there is a very real danger of aspects of that civilization declining or disappearing if we outpace our progressive sensibilities outpace our ability to reproduce.

Put simply, you might love French culture. But unless France can correct it's current birthrate issues, within 50 years there may no longer be a 'France' to love.

I see. Thanks for clarifying. :)

Offline vtboy

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #105 on: March 09, 2012, 04:44:22 PM »
I would argue that western civilization is the most peaceful, most technologically advanced and most prosperous expression of human culture that the Earth has ever seen. Western Europe and the United States have more freedom, more sexuality equality, better political representation, more food, better tech, more opportunities... than any other period in history.

And to be frank better than other civilizations that are currently prominent in the world today. I have two daughters, and I would fight to the death to protect them from having to live under a repressive political or religious Middle Eastern regime or under the thumb of the totalitarian policies of Communist China.

But I believe that there is a very real danger of aspects of that civilization declining or disappearing if we outpace our progressive sensibilities outpace our ability to reproduce.

Put simply, you might love French culture. But unless France can correct it's current birthrate issues, within 50 years there may no longer be a 'France' to love.

Let's not forget that Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, the Soviet Union, ethnic cleansing, Jim Crow, the KKK, mandatory pre-abortion transvaginal ultrasonic probes, and the Real Housewives of New York are all fruits of western civilization.

That said, like you, I can't think of anywhere else I could live. Do you think those residing in "France" 50 years from now will still be able to bake a decent croissant?

Offline Will

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #106 on: March 09, 2012, 04:47:30 PM »
I have a difficult time understanding how legal gay marriage leads directly to a lower birthrate.  It's not as if perfectly straight people are going to suddenly say, "hey, gay marriage is legal!  I think I'll just be gay now, and stop all this reproducing."  And conversely, just because gay marriage is not legal doesn't mean gay people are giving in and fornicating to pregnancy.

I'm also a little confused at how anyone can point to socially repressive regimes like those in the Middle East as an example of why we should be, uh... more socially repressive?  I thought the idea was to use them as a cautionary tale, not a role model.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 04:51:10 PM by Will »

Offline vtboy

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #107 on: March 09, 2012, 05:01:03 PM »
I have a difficult time understanding how legal gay marriage leads directly to a lower birthrate.  It's not as if perfectly straight people are going to suddenly say, "hey, gay marriage is legal!  I think I'll just be gay now, and stop all this reproducing."  And conversely, just because gay marriage is not legal doesn't mean gay people are giving in and fornicating to pregnancy.

Amen.

As I noted in another post somewhere, it is not laws against bestiality which keep me out of my dog's rear end.

Offline Sabre

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #108 on: March 09, 2012, 05:18:50 PM »
A declining birthrate has little to do with a culture and people surviving.  For most of history, said populations were rising and falling but most often remained stagnant.  In fact, for most periods where there is a noticeable spike in population, a lot of economic and social turmoil followed.  But the culture survived, as did the people.

No, what the fear of a stagnant or declining birthrate is all about is survivability of the welfare state and many of its institutions.  It's about having enough sons and grandsons to fund the current and last generation into their retirement and advanced elderly life.  The culture can survive whether or not they are looked after, as in the art of the croissant will not be lost.  However, the next few generations will be forced to shoulder a lot more weight financially to support this aging population (forced, because the laws already made and being made are for the benefit of the aging generation).  The consequences of this is hard to see, but it may not be pretty judging from the youth reactions in France and all across Europe.

So what is gay marriage to all of this?  Certainly, there is a moral police behind much of its opposition.  But these, as always, are simply the mobilized voters to call upon for someone else's gain.  And not everyone is as morally guided as Santorum (claims himself to be).  So what if gay marriage is recognized tomorrow on the federal level and state level?  That's, what, 600,000 households now wanting access to the big pot that marriage had normally provided - Social Security, tax breaks, and the recent trend that has tried to eliminate what marriage tax penalties were put into place in the 70's by the baby boomers looking to secure their safety nets.  So unless the model homosexual family included a half-dozen adopted children, as a statistic they are a threat.  A minor threat, maybe even financially negligible, but a very useful one.  Hence the televangelists reminding you to get angry about gay marriage and not get angry about the $712 billion spent on Social Security.

The more you look this way to see them protect the family, the less you'll look that way to seem them protect something else entirely.

Offline DeMalachine

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #109 on: March 09, 2012, 08:14:48 PM »
...However there are NO species on Earth other than a tiny minority of Humans who continually choose to indulge their home-erotic impulses to the exclusion of biological male/female reproduction...

This isn't quite correct. It's been known for a while that about 8% of the male sheep population will only partake of exclusively same-sex activity:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1582336-1,00.html

Roughly 25% of male black swans will form exclusively same-sex monogamous relationships, though it has been known that they will occasionally use a female surrogate to obtain eggs; they will then drive the female away afterwards in order to raise the resultant cygnets themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan (see section: nesting and reproduction)

In any case, I am wary of applying anthropomorphic human terms such as 'homosexual' (or 'any'-sexual, come to that) to animal behavior, in that there exist vast and wildly differing attributes associated with the sexual behavoirs of so many differing species. In sort, you cannot really say that a dog that likes to hump his master's leg is exhibiting zoophile behavior; neither can you say that an Ichneumon wasp (which injects its eggs into a living host, usually the caterpillar larvae of another species) is a zoophile rapist; the definitions, in their respective contexts, are absurd. But by the same token, this also means that what one would generalise as 'natural' behaviour in the animal kingdom cannot be applied to humans - in that we are again using a human definition of 'natural' to anthropomorphise various non-human animals.

In short: anyone who defines human homosexuality as natural or unnatural (in the sense, even, of being a 'biological aberration') based on a comparison with examples from the animal kingdom is mistaken; it's basically a value judgement.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 08:27:38 PM by DeMalachine »

Offline Hurricane

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #110 on: March 09, 2012, 09:44:36 PM »
I have a difficult time understanding how legal gay marriage leads directly to a lower birthrate.  It's not as if perfectly straight people are going to suddenly say, "hey, gay marriage is legal!  I think I'll just be gay now, and stop all this reproducing."  And conversely, just because gay marriage is not legal doesn't mean gay people are giving in and fornicating to pregnancy.

There are a number of excellent articles on the web describing the "perfect storm" of social forces that are contributing to declining birthrates in progressive western cultures.

As in so many "perfect storm" situations, you can look at a lot of different elements that are contributors to the meta-trend and interpret the levels of impact differently. In the case of the declining birthrate there are lots of socio-economic factors that may also be having an effect on people's choice to have kids or not, and I don't deny any of those. But there's no mistake: overall the reproductive rate in western countries has dropped to drastically low levels and the simplified explanation is essentially that progressive culture puts a high emphasis on individuals tailoring their lives to suit their taste.

Consider 'DINK' couples - 'double income, no kids'. Two working professionals have chosen to use their earning power to raise their standard of living rather than use their earning power to rear kids. Seems reasonable, right? After all, it's their choice; more power to them. Live life to the fullest. Use your income to build the retirement scenario of your dreams and all that. In today's progressive cultural climate that lifestyle choice is perfectly acceptable.

But of course if you have massive numbers of young working professionals all making that same choice then you are compromising your long-term viability as a society. And that is precisely what's happening in a shocking number of progressive western European countries. Like I said: part of the perfect storm, but not the whole picture. I'm sure we could all name quite a few more socially progressive stances that would also be contributors to that same scenario.

Which brings us back to my original point: homosexual relations are a choice and not a biological imperative and they do not (generally) produce offspring. A culture that chooses to 'formally acknowledge' those relationships as equal to male/female relationships that can provide offspring is contributing yet another 'vector' into to that same perfect storm that is driving down the populations.

My stance on this is not about love, or bigotry or whatever else people claim. It's about the simple logic.

Offline Hurricane

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #111 on: March 09, 2012, 09:48:52 PM »
In short: anyone who defines human homosexuality as natural or unnatural (in the sense, even, of being a 'biological aberration') based on a comparison with examples from the animal kingdom is mistaken; it's basically a value judgement.

I would certainly agree that a one-to-one comparison with all the weird expressions of the natural world is impossible.

I'm not trying to make a value judgement, but maybe on some level I am. I will take that under advisement ;)

Offline Oniya

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #112 on: March 09, 2012, 09:55:33 PM »
Okay - I'm just going to throw this out there.  If I'm not attracted to someone in some fashion, I'm not going to have sex with them (unless forced).  If I don't have sex with them, I'm not going to have children with them.  It doesn't matter if I'm homosexual or heterosexual - if I'm not going to have sex with a person, I cannot conceivably have children with them willingly.  If the set of people that I'm not attracted to includes all members of one biological sex, I'm not going to have sex with members of that biological sex.  As it happens, I'm not attracted to women, therefore, I'm not going to willingly have sex with women.  If a man is not attracted to women, he's not going to willingly have sex with them.  Marriage is beside the point.  Whether you accept gay marriage or not, it's not going to make a scintilla of difference in changing the birthrate.

Offline Hurricane

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #113 on: March 09, 2012, 10:05:47 PM »
Okay - I'm just going to throw this out there.  If I'm not attracted to someone in some fashion, I'm not going to have sex with them (unless forced).  If I don't have sex with them, I'm not going to have children with them.  It doesn't matter if I'm homosexual or heterosexual - if I'm not going to have sex with a person, I cannot conceivably have children with them willingly.  If the set of people that I'm not attracted to includes all members of one biological sex, I'm not going to have sex with members of that biological sex.  As it happens, I'm not attracted to women, therefore, I'm not going to willingly have sex with women.  If a man is not attracted to women, he's not going to willingly have sex with them.  Marriage is beside the point.  Whether you accept gay marriage or not, it's not going to make a scintilla of difference in changing the birthrate.

Really? You don't think that there are a lot of people out there that skirt the line between engaging in homosexual and/or heterosexual behavior? I think there are a lot.

And that's the point - the more the social climate is permissive of that kind of behavior, the more people will engage in it. Consider your particular case: if (just pretend with me here) you were somewhat curious about same-sex pairings but you knew (for extreme example) that the society you lived in would stone you to death, I'd bet that you'd keep it in your pants and stay 'straight'.

My own mother-in-law is an example of that exact scenario. She was married twice and raised three kids. But as social mores changed she decided that she was gay, divorced and ran off with an ex-con bull dike.

And I'm not even making this up...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 10:09:37 PM by Hurricane »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #114 on: March 09, 2012, 10:09:25 PM »
Really? You don't think that there are a lot of people out there that skirt the line between homosexual and heterosexual behavior? I think there are a lot.

And that's the point - the more the social climate is permissive of that kind of behavior, the more people will engage in it. Consider your particular case: if (just pretend with me here) you were somewhat curious about same-sex pairings but you knew (for extreme example) that the society you lived in would stone you to death, I'd bet that you'd keep it in your pants and stay 'straight'.

I might 'keep it in my pants and stay straight', but that doesn't mean that I'd find someone and 'whip it out' to have kids with them.

Offline Samael

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #115 on: March 09, 2012, 10:15:01 PM »
Consider 'DINK' couples - 'double income, no kids'. Two working professionals have chosen to use their earning power to raise their standard of living rather than use their earning power to rear kids. Seems reasonable, right? After all, it's their choice; more power to them. Live life to the fullest. Use your income to build the retirement scenario of your dreams and all that. In today's progressive cultural climate that lifestyle choice is perfectly acceptable.

But of course if you have massive numbers of young working professionals all making that same choice then you are compromising your long-term viability as a society. And that is precisely what's happening in a shocking number of progressive western European countries. Like I said: part of the perfect storm, but not the whole picture. I'm sure we could all name quite a few more socially progressive stances that would also be contributors to that same scenario.
I would argue that this is far better countered via organized immigration and integration, to fill the holes that are left behind by the personal -choices- of random people. And, make no mistake, those -are- *their* choices to make, regardless of what anyone thinks they should do instead.
In fact, I would say that any culture/society that actually can afford to have most of its individuals having a good job is actually quite desirable a place to live, because it means that it is economically in a good spot.
Also, let us not forget the cases in which two partners in a relationship both -have- to work, so they can make ends meet, and there are more than a few places within the Western Civilization where such is necessary, which means they cannot afford to have kids in the first place.

More than gay/straight couples, I'd consider our economy and politics influencing child birth in western countries.

Which brings us back to my original point: homosexual relations are a choice and not a biological imperative and they do not (generally) produce offspring. A culture that chooses to 'formally acknowledge' those relationships as equal to male/female relationships that can provide offspring is contributing yet another 'vector' into to that same perfect storm that is driving down the populations.

My stance on this is not about love, or bigotry or whatever else people claim. It's about the simple logic.
I'd consider homosexual relations as a commodity actually, since, while they may not have offspring on their own, even just a small percentage being ready to adopt children would make a great, positive impact in our society, and let's be honest here, there are a lot of kids who'd rather have two Dads/two Moms than having to grow up on their own.

That said, keeping a gay/lesbian couple from marrying will not magically make them fall in love with a woman/man instead of their own gender, and want to suddenly reproduce.

Offline Samael

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #116 on: March 09, 2012, 10:20:35 PM »
Really? You don't think that there are a lot of people out there that skirt the line between engaging in homosexual and/or heterosexual behavior? I think there are a lot.

And that's the point - the more the social climate is permissive of that kind of behavior, the more people will engage in it. Consider your particular case: if (just pretend with me here) you were somewhat curious about same-sex pairings but you knew (for extreme example) that the society you lived in would stone you to death, I'd bet that you'd keep it in your pants and stay 'straight'.
Ok, first, wow...
Did I really read what I read there just now?
Of course people would try to keep their true orientation secret if it meant being killed for it.
Of course it would also mean they'd try to pretend to be straight, and maybe father kids, but they'd be miserable, and feel horrible all of their lives.
Are you really alright with the idea of people spending their lives in that way, as long as they keep on making children?

Also, between the gays and the straights, there are also the bisexuals.
I know we tend to be forgotten easily, but we are here.
We are the people who can find attraction to either gender, and are fine with it.

My own mother-in-law is an example of that exact scenario. She was married twice and raised three kids. But as social mores changed she decided that she was gay, divorced and ran off with an ex-con bull dike.

And I'm not even making this up...
...I see.
I think there's little to say to that anymore.

Offline Hurricane

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #117 on: March 09, 2012, 10:41:08 PM »
Ok, first, wow...
Did I really read what I read there just now?
Of course people would try to keep their true orientation secret if it meant being killed for it.
Of course it would also mean they'd try to pretend to be straight, and maybe father kids, but they'd be miserable, and feel horrible all of their lives.
Are you really alright with the idea of people spending their lives in that way, as long as they keep on making children?

I did say "pretend", right? As in, "let's create a hypothetical situation and see if we can extrapolate from it."

It's interesting that you extrapolated precisely the same results that I do. Case closed, no?

Offline Trieste

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #118 on: March 09, 2012, 10:42:53 PM »
I believe there was also a question in there for you, which you quoted but didn't answer. :)

Offline Hurricane

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #119 on: March 09, 2012, 10:56:45 PM »
I believe there was also a question in there for you, which you quoted but didn't answer. :)

:) I am busted.

Honestly, on this topic - I don't know. Talking this out makes me realize how angry and hurt I am by my mother-in-laws decision and how much it may color my views on this topic.

Would it have been better for our family (for me) for her to 'stay straight'? Absolutely yes.

Would it have been better for her to actually have started out comfortable in being gay in the first place? Possibly.

Is she really gay now, or is she just a self-absorbed asshole who swings from one relationship to the next in search of status and comfort? Time will tell. If her past history is any predictor, she'll dump her girlfriend in favor of a newer model just like she did her previous relationships.

Offline Samael

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #120 on: March 09, 2012, 11:02:24 PM »
:) I am busted.

Honestly, on this topic - I don't know. Talking this out makes me realize how angry and hurt I am by my mother-in-laws decision and how much it may color my views on this topic.

Would it have been better for our family (for me) for her to 'stay straight'? Absolutely yes.

Would it have been better for her to actually have started out comfortable in being gay in the first place? Possibly.

Is she really gay now, or is she just a self-absorbed asshole who swings from one relationship to the next in search of status and comfort? Time will tell. If her past history is any predictor, she'll dump her girlfriend in favor of a newer model just like she did her previous relationships.

Did you ever consider the possibility that it just may not be as black/white for her as you see it now?
That it was possible that she always was attracted to both genders, but due to societal pressure never actually acted on it?
-IF- she is actually gay, would you prefer for her to remain in a heterosexual relationship just so you could be more happy with her, even if she was miserable?

Also, the bold part.
So she's just like a guy in a midlife crisis who constantly needs younger models?
That would make her just someone to feel sorry for, and it has little to do with her sexual orientation.

Could it be that -this- is what you really are upset about?

Offline Trieste

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #121 on: March 09, 2012, 11:14:18 PM »
:) I am busted.

I hope you didn't feel picked on. I was just honestly curious as to the answer. Thanks for that.

Offline Hurricane

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #122 on: March 09, 2012, 11:16:50 PM »
Did you ever consider the possibility that it just may not be as black/white for her as you see it now?
That it was possible that she always was attracted to both genders, but due to societal pressure never actually acted on it?
-IF- she is actually gay, would you prefer for her to remain in a heterosexual relationship just so you could be more happy with her, even if she was miserable?

Yes, of course I realize that societal pressure might have been what was holding her back from her impulses.

Yes, I would prefer that she not do what she has done to our family which is essentially tear it apart.

No, the fact that she might have been somewhat unhappy struggling against her own impulses does not undo the massive damage that she has caused. There's no relationship with her grandkids. With her children. With her parents.

We'll have to wait and see on the other stuff. She went through two husbands and their extended families before deciding that she was gay. If she sticks with this, then maybe the hetero marriages couldn't have worked out because of her orientation. But (as I mentioned) she's a self-absorbed jerk, so that might have more to do with it.

Time will tell.


Offline Hurricane

Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #123 on: March 09, 2012, 11:19:46 PM »
I hope you didn't feel picked on. I was just honestly curious as to the answer. Thanks for that.

Oh hell no. I'm deeply appreciative of the fact that you guys are talking to me about this stuff. It's something that's been roiling around in my brain as these issues have been in the public eye lately, and I haven't been able to reconcile it so this is very therapeutic.

Thank you.

- H

Offline Oniya

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Re: Being against homosexuality is homophobic?
« Reply #124 on: March 09, 2012, 11:30:24 PM »
Self-absorbed jerks tend to cause massive damage regardless of any other factor.  ;)  We've had to deal with a couple out this way.  Sorry that you had to, also.