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Author Topic: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question  (Read 9405 times)

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Offline Aiden

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2011, 09:35:13 AM »
We should get those damn smokers their own restrooms and drinking fountains also.

Hell let's call them "colored" lungs and call ourselves "pink" lungs.







Offline MagicalPen

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2011, 09:55:30 AM »
Racism and smoking are completely different things.  Color of skin doesn't effect peoples health. Smoking does. I don't want to inhale something poisonous if it can be prevented.

Offline Aiden

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2011, 10:00:56 AM »
Really? Concept is the same. Let's alienate a group of people! Granted my sarcasm is pushed towards the extreme.

But hell, let's keep the pictures of corroded lungs and bad teeth.

Fast food- Let's cover it with images of fat people, or pictures of fat children getting picked on at school
Bars- Let's put up pictures of unattractive men and women with the warning, "Drinking will put you in bed with these people!"
Car- Let's put decals of red pavement and crumpled bodies on them to warn people of the dangerous of driving.

Hell let's hall monitor each other to the point that we can do nothing, nor enjoy ourselves ever again.

Online AndyZ

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2011, 10:25:49 AM »
Really? Concept is the same. Let's alienate a group of people! Granted my sarcasm is pushed towards the extreme.

But hell, let's keep the pictures of corroded lungs and bad teeth.

Fast food- Let's cover it with images of fat people, or pictures of fat children getting picked on at school
Bars- Let's put up pictures of unattractive men and women with the warning, "Drinking will put you in bed with these people!"
Car- Let's put decals of red pavement and crumpled bodies on them to warn people of the dangerous of driving.

Hell let's hall monitor each other to the point that we can do nothing, nor enjoy ourselves ever again.

Fast food only affects the person eating it.
Alcohol only affects the person drinking it, unless they're behind the wheel.  I believe drinking and driving should be illegal.  Do you disagree, Aiden?
While cars can be dangerous, we do have speed limits to allow for a similar curtailing of the dangers.

Smoking, however, affects people who aren't using the product, due to secondhand and thirdhand smoke.

However, I will agree that the pictures of smoking victims don't really do anything meaningful.  It's difficult to claim in the modern age that people who smoke don't actually know the risks.  I also have no issue with chewing or things of the like, which only affect the user.

Offline Aiden

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2011, 10:39:46 AM »
I am not a smoker, but when I smell second hand smoke I know it is only in passing. But people who make a big deal out of it should either go another way or take a different door.

I can only speak from my personal opinion/experience, but smokers are already chastised enough that I think the images will border on bullying . Already they are forced to only smoke in "smoke only" areas, one I had to cross myself (a non smoker) when moving from the parking lot to the building I had to go to. The area was tucked away in some back area, giving off the  "your kind are not welcomed here" vibe.

Besides those who have medical conditions, what else besides the inconvenience does a smoker cause a person? I highly doubt walking past someone and inhaling their second hand smoke will give someone cancer. I just think people are to damn picky about everything.



Online AndyZ

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2011, 11:24:11 AM »
I am not a smoker, but when I smell second hand smoke I know it is only in passing. But people who make a big deal out of it should either go another way or take a different door.

I can only speak from my personal opinion/experience, but smokers are already chastised enough that I think the images will border on bullying . Already they are forced to only smoke in "smoke only" areas, one I had to cross myself (a non smoker) when moving from the parking lot to the building I had to go to. The area was tucked away in some back area, giving off the  "your kind are not welcomed here" vibe.

Besides those who have medical conditions, what else besides the inconvenience does a smoker cause a person? I highly doubt walking past someone and inhaling their second hand smoke will give someone cancer. I just think people are to damn picky about everything.

I do have a medical condition.  Should I be forced to stay away from buildings which have smokers hanging out outside every doorway?  Does it really make sense that the person's right to smoke trumps my right to breathe?

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Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2011, 12:27:35 PM »
The key is to find a happy medium.  I see nothing wrong with government buildings and health facilities having specified smoking areas, as they have to be accessible to all chain-smoker and asthmatic alike, and should set a good example, but governments go too far in dictating what can or can't happen in a private business.  If the owner of a tavern wants to let people smoke in his bar, he's actively choosing to allow himself to be exposed to the smoke, and anyone that goes into that bar is actively choosing to be exposed to smoke, something we all know is unhealthy.

Governments go way too far in dictating healthy behaviors to their citizens.  While yes, health costs are borne by all (that's a completely different debate for a different topic), we as adults should have the right to defile ourselves if we so choose, so long as we aren't taking away other people's rights.  People should have unfettered access to government buildings, and to their own places, but in all else choice should rule supreme.  Forcing people into positive patterns of behavior is a bad precedent, be it outlawing smoking in a private bar or banning obesity like Japan has done and giving fines to all fat people.

Offline Shjade

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2011, 02:18:24 PM »
We should get those damn smokers their own restrooms and drinking fountains also.

Hell let's call them "colored" lungs and call ourselves "pink" lungs.
Because there's so much comparable between prejudicial behavior and segregation toward a group of people for characteristics they were born with as opposed to people who decided to walk around breathing poison because they felt like it.

Hyperbole is hyper.

Offline Noelle

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2011, 05:02:46 PM »
And while we're at it, why don't we just lock smokers in a chamber, say one labeled "showers" on the outside, and fill it with Zyklon-B! Godwin? Anyone? :P

Offline Zakharra

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2011, 05:17:17 PM »
I do have a medical condition.  Should I be forced to stay away from buildings which have smokers hanging out outside every doorway?  Does it really make sense that the person's right to smoke trumps my right to breathe?

  Bluntly, yes.  If you're in the city, considering the amount of crap in the air from auto exhaust and other pollutants, I think a brief exposure, mere seconds at the most (and it would be brief unless you stop right where they are) is neglegible at the most. No worse than standing on the sidewalk in rush hour and taking several deep breaths.

 If they are obeying the rules set down for them on where they can smoke (not inside) and are outside where the air does circulate a hell of a lot more than inside a building, there's little you can do or should expect to be done. They have as much of a right to smoke  and breath as you do and concider this, smokers tend to get cancers and lung/heart ailments a lot more than nonsmokers, so they are killing themselves far faster than they are you.

Online AndyZ

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2011, 05:18:54 PM »
  Bluntly, yes.  If you're in the city, considering the amount of crap in the air from auto exhaust and other pollutants, I think a brief exposure, mere seconds at the most (and it would be brief unless you stop right where they are) is neglegible at the most. No worse than standing on the sidewalk in rush hour and taking several deep breaths.

 If they are obeying the rules set down for them on where they can smoke (not inside) and are outside where the air does circulate a hell of a lot more than inside a building, there's little you can do or should expect to be done. They have as much of a right to smoke  and breath as you do and concider this, smokers tend to get cancers and lung/heart ailments a lot more than nonsmokers, so they are killing themselves far faster than they are you.

Well, at least you're honest about how you feel, which I appreciate.  Thank you for that.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2011, 05:48:21 PM »
Well, at least you're honest about how you feel, which I appreciate.  Thank you for that.

 I try to be as honest as I can.  I do understand your concerns about health, but at what point does the concern for you, or another person's health override a legal activity someone else is doing?  Smokers have been hammered in the last 30 years about everything to do with smoking and higher taxes on cigarettes and pretty much everything but making it illegal to smoke has been done.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2011, 06:32:53 PM »
I've heard it argued that obesity impacts everyone to the point that some folks advocate taxing any 'unhealthy' eating institutions that cater to specific things. Not just fast food like macdonalds but anything that could be tagged with contributing to bad eating practices (Soul Food anyone?). Of course most of the folks I heard talk about it want to go all green and even straight up vegetarian if not full on vegan.

Offline DudelRok

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2011, 06:41:44 PM »
But hell, let's keep the pictures of corroded lungs and bad teeth.

Fast food- Let's cover it with images of fat people, or pictures of fat children getting picked on at school
Bars- Let's put up pictures of unattractive men and women with the warning, "Drinking will put you in bed with these people!"
Car- Let's put decals of red pavement and crumpled bodies on them to warn people of the dangerous of driving.

Hell let's hall monitor each other to the point that we can do nothing, nor enjoy ourselves ever again.

As silly as this sounds, it's actually not a horrible idea. Though that's a "if you start you don't stop" kind of deal. If it MUST be done, do it for everything... though having dealt with my fair share of rude and opinionated smokers who will happily blow smoke in your direction even after a simple "Please" it brings up question as if people can be allowed a choice.

See, I'm of the firm opinion that people can not be naturally trusted to act properly or, generally, behave in a mature environment. It's why E still shocks me to a large degree. However someplace like E is a very small collection of like-minded individuals from a much MUCH larger selection... where in we all know (very collectively as our small group) that said people are pretty much dick-holes for no reason about a plethora of stuff.

The short of that being: If one person shits in the pool, no one can go swimming.

Basically translating, "I don't think warning labels are enough... and I'm even pro banning certain sugars (especially those found in alcohol), regulating salt and making drivers tests even more difficult to obtain. I'm also pro strict punishment for breaking these regulations to the point of imprisonment."

I do not honestly think that people are capable of handling things themselves, and it is proven to us every day just by stepping outside and looking at other people.

I've heard it argued that obesity impacts everyone to the point that some folks advocate taxing any 'unhealthy' eating institutions that cater to specific things. Not just fast food like macdonalds but anything that could be tagged with contributing to bad eating practices (Soul Food anyone?). Of course most of the folks I heard talk about it want to go all green and even straight up vegetarian if not full on vegan.

I am not a vegetarian, vegan or healthy eater and am pro that very thing.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2011, 06:56:03 PM »
See, I'm of the firm opinion that people can not be naturally trusted to act properly or, generally, behave in a mature environment. It's why E still shocks me to a large degree. However someplace like E is a very small collection of like-minded individuals from a much MUCH larger selection... where in we all know (very collectively as our small group) that said people are pretty much dick-holes for no reason about a plethora of stuff.

The short of that being: If one person shits in the pool, no one can go swimming.

Basically translating, "I don't think warning labels are enough... and I'm even pro banning certain sugars (especially those found in alcohol), regulating salt and making drivers tests even more difficult to obtain. I'm also pro strict punishment for breaking these regulations to the point of imprisonment."

I do not honestly think that people are capable of handling things themselves, and it is proven to us every day just by stepping outside and looking at other people.

  Alright then at what point -do- you trust people to take care of themselves? Are you going to require that people obey -these- laws because 'it's for your own good' or let them make mistakes that can and will kill them at some point? People will make mistakes. They will do unhealthy things because they 1; want to, 2; like doing it, 3; like the taste/flavor or 4; because it is easier than doing something else.

 Peope have a right to dop things that can harm themselvess, including smoking, eating foods that can be unhealthy, drive cars (a big killer right there), do dangerous sports and what not. It's not the responsibility of  Agency for Public Safety and Health (or whatever it's named) to run my life for me.

 Personally, if any agency tried to do that, I would go out of my way to flaunt that law and so would milllions of other people.

Offline DudelRok

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2011, 07:18:39 PM »
Alright then at what point -do- you trust people to take care of themselves?

Never. X|

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Are you going to require that people obey -these- laws because 'it's for your own good' or let them make mistakes that can and will kill them at some point?

The former.

Quote
People will make mistakes. They will do unhealthy things because they 1; want to, 2; like doing it, 3; like the taste/flavor or 4; because it is easier than doing something else.

People will always make mistakes, yes, and most first time offenses should be handled with a little bit of leeway. As for people doing unhealthy things because they 1, 2, 3, 4. I present to you a very simple anecdote: Illegal drugs and illegal downloads.

Though I don't feel those are handled quite as harshly as they should be, either.

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Peope have a right to dop things that can harm themselvess, including smoking, eating foods that can be unhealthy, drive cars (a big killer right there), do dangerous sports and what not. It's not the responsibility of  Agency for Public Safety and Health (or whatever it's named) to run my life for me.

I agree... but I also don't think they have the honest ability.

Quote
Personally, if any agency tried to do that, I would go out of my way to flaunt that law and so would milllions of other people.

I know they would.. and they'd be handled. X|

Granted my ideas on the matter are rather extremist but I also have an obvious lacking in faith of people.


But, anyway, if they are going to put up giant warning labels they really shouldn't stop at cigarettes, that I agree. However I don't think they should be allowed at all... or at least taxed more. In this economy, if you want people to stop doing something you make it too costly (like eating healthy).

Offline Jude

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2011, 09:59:28 PM »
Quote
See, I'm of the firm opinion that people can not be naturally trusted to act properly or, generally, behave in a mature environment. It's why E still shocks me to a large degree. However someplace like E is a very small collection of like-minded individuals from a much MUCH larger selection... where in we all know (very collectively as our small group) that said people are pretty much dick-holes for no reason about a plethora of stuff.


This picture of the recently completed longest bridge in the world disproves your point.  You may be wondering how or why, and that's something I'd absolutely love to explain to you.

The story doesn't exactly begin in 1687, who knows when it really did, but a starting point needs to be placed arbitrary somewhere, so I'll start there (ignoring all of the contributions to mathematics, science, and civilization that were made that created the college this genius went to).  It was then that Isaac Newton published a work that established the principle of gravity in quantitative terms.  Along with his laws of motion, humanity gained some powerful tools for building structures, but it still wasn't enough.  We need computers capable of doing these rigorous calculations with relative speed.  Thankfully another group of pioneering individuals stepped up to the plate to lay down the foundational knowledge/tools.

Now we come to just a few years ago.  Imagine all of the people the mined the raw materials that became that bridge.  The workers who physically built it.  The engineers who designed it, the teachers who taught them.  The farmers who made the food they ate, their family who supported them and helped keep the stress level low.  The entirety of China which provided the funding -- and of course their partners in trade that made that possible by serving as an economic ally.

When you think enough, you realize how everything in the entire world is interconnected.  Human beings stand on each others' shoulders all the time, often without asking.  The fact that you can go to the grocery store and give paper for real, tangible goods to help sustain your existence is a marvel of civility and cooperation.

There is no individual.  And humans?  We're damn good at working together, all things considered.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 10:00:29 PM by Jude »

Offline DudelRok

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2011, 10:31:10 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide


This picture of the recently completed longest bridge in the world disproves your point.  You may be wondering how or why, and that's something I'd absolutely love to explain to you.

The story doesn't exactly begin in 1687, who knows when it really did, but a starting point needs to be placed arbitrary somewhere, so I'll start there (ignoring all of the contributions to mathematics, science, and civilization that were made that created the college this genius went to).  It was then that Isaac Newton published a work that established the principle of gravity in quantitative terms.  Along with his laws of motion, humanity gained some powerful tools for building structures, but it still wasn't enough.  We need computers capable of doing these rigorous calculations with relative speed.  Thankfully another group of pioneering individuals stepped up to the plate to lay down the foundational knowledge/tools.

Now we come to just a few years ago.  Imagine all of the people the mined the raw materials that became that bridge.  The workers who physically built it.  The engineers who designed it, the teachers who taught them.  The farmers who made the food they ate, their family who supported them and helped keep the stress level low.  The entirety of China which provided the funding -- and of course their partners in trade that made that possible by serving as an economic ally.

When you think enough, you realize how everything in the entire world is interconnected.  Human beings stand on each others' shoulders all the time, often without asking.  The fact that you can go to the grocery store and give paper for real, tangible goods to help sustain your existence is a marvel of civility and cooperation.

There is no individual.  And humans?  We're damn good at working together, all things considered.

Question: How does that disprove my point?

I'm removing the individual as much as possible, right down the fact they can't have X, Y, Z very personal and individual choices so it's a unified singular minded unit.

But the real question becomes WHY was that bridge created.

Though there comes the regardless, too. If there isn't an individual than individual choice doesn't even matter. :O

Offline Noelle

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2011, 12:19:40 AM »
Are you removing all of your own individuality and choices, too, then? I would place every cent of my money on the fact that you've probably made some awfully poor choices in your life. Should a place like Elliquiy exist in case someone with a real, serious sex addiction uncovers it? What about the people who keep it a secret from their significant other who might be offended by it? What if you could be doing something more productive with your time, such as exercising or quilting or baking or visiting your family?

Offline DudelRok

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2011, 04:05:32 PM »
Are you removing all of your own individuality and choices, too, then? I would place every cent of my money on the fact that you've probably made some awfully poor choices in your life. Should a place like Elliquiy exist in case someone with a real, serious sex addiction uncovers it? What about the people who keep it a secret from their significant other who might be offended by it? What if you could be doing something more productive with your time, such as exercising or quilting or baking or visiting your family?

Yes, I don't belong in my own ideal world. I am well aware of this.

I view things from two perspectives: The individual and the group.

Individually speaking: Fkn' warning labels, let me kill myself how I so please! Your scare tactics make me laugh (literally). (Actually the warning labels are counter productive as they encourage people to ignore them much like "Warning: Hot Coffee")

Group Speaking: Fkn' smokers, hurting both people's health and pocket. Your actions shouldn't be allowed affect other's, and they do. When one person poops in the pool no one can go swimming, so out with it.

Offline Noelle

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2011, 04:43:05 PM »
So...if you recognize that your own ideology is massively flawed and doesn't work even when applied to yourself...?

You're making a false dichotomy here that either we must be all for individual rights or all for group rights and there is absolutely no middle ground to be had. There is. That's part of what indoor smoking bans are about -- we aren't banning cigarettes outright (for the individual) and we're allowing non-smokers places that are free from concentrated cigarette smoke (for the group). It's not ideal for everyone (as evidenced by the people here with grievances about smokers near the front door of buildings, etc.), but that's kind of what compromise is all about. I can think of very few cases where extremist ideology is ever a good solution to a multifaceted issue.

Besides, we make concessions for our fellow man every single day, often in ways we don't consider. Jon Stewart's Rally to Restore Sanity example comes first to mind -- the way we merge into traffic, taking turns, and though sometimes there are dicks that cut ahead, we adjust even for the douchebags and do our best to carry on in a way that gets everybody through it as quickly and painlessly as possible. I highly doubt we'd have a functioning society if the bulk of the citizens living in our country were doing everything for their own selfish benefit. Altruism is one of the many beautiful things about humankind, especially so since some will argue that it runs contrary to our own innate survival instincts.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2011, 09:52:20 AM »
People will always make mistakes, yes, and most first time offenses should be handled with a little bit of leeway. As for people doing unhealthy things because they 1, 2, 3, 4. I present to you a very simple anecdote: Illegal drugs and illegal downloads.

 Eating food, living, having possibly dangerous lifestyles, looking at porn on the internet are some other things that some would regulate because it's deemed 'dangerous' by other people.

Though I don't feel those are handled quite as harshly as they should be, either.

I agree... but I also don't think they have the honest ability.

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I know they would.. and they'd be handled. X|

 and to be honest, that official would get hit with a big lawsuite and a real big medical billl since I would defend my ability and RIGHT with violence if need be. My land, my right to do what I want, more or less.

Quote
Granted my ideas on the matter are rather extremist but I also have an obvious lacking in faith of people.

 I'm seeing that.  You'd be comfortable in a Borg situation. No individual, but a collective/group mind/thought.

Quote
But, anyway, if they are going to put up giant warning labels they really shouldn't stop at cigarettes, that I agree. However I don't think they should be allowed at all... or at least taxed more. In this economy, if you want people to stop doing something you make it too costly (like eating healthy).

 Unfortunately, unless they completely outlaw all fast foods, candy, junk food and many kinds of drinks, alcohol and coffee included, that will never happen, nor would it be tolerated. By the citizens or the corporations that would be put out of business.

Offline DudelRok

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2011, 11:59:36 PM »
So...if you recognize that your own ideology is massively flawed and doesn't work even when applied to yourself...?

You're making a false dichotomy here that either we must be all for individual rights or all for group rights and there is absolutely no middle ground to be had. There is. That's part of what indoor smoking bans are about -- we aren't banning cigarettes outright (for the individual) and we're allowing non-smokers places that are free from concentrated cigarette smoke (for the group). It's not ideal for everyone (as evidenced by the people here with grievances about smokers near the front door of buildings, etc.), but that's kind of what compromise is all about. I can think of very few cases where extremist ideology is ever a good solution to a multifaceted issue.

Besides, we make concessions for our fellow man every single day, often in ways we don't consider. Jon Stewart's Rally to Restore Sanity example comes first to mind -- the way we merge into traffic, taking turns, and though sometimes there are dicks that cut ahead, we adjust even for the douchebags and do our best to carry on in a way that gets everybody through it as quickly and painlessly as possible. I highly doubt we'd have a functioning society if the bulk of the citizens living in our country were doing everything for their own selfish benefit. Altruism is one of the many beautiful things about humankind, especially so since some will argue that it runs contrary to our own innate survival instincts.

Well it is said, somewhere, that a compromise works best when neither party is pleased with the result.

However I find that doesn't tend to get anything done. In most cases you need to check your number of people vs their usefulness. But logic is a silly beast which doesn't really apply to humans. However, I will say that hothing was accomplished other than annoying smokers and giving non-smokers this new random urge to yell at smokers for infringing on their imaginary rights (see below). That's the problem with people... give an inch, take a mile.

I'd also argue Jon Stewart's Rally to Restore Sanity is more about controlling fear than anything else. That altruism doesn't exist... people are pushing through that line to get to work because they have no other choice. It's either deal with it and try not to anger yourself along the way, or get yourself all worked up by trying to rush-rush-rush. People just don't do things out of the kindness of their heart In most cases they are either looking for a shiny spot in heaven or will want something from you later.

and to be honest, that official would get hit with a big lawsuite and a real big medical billl since I would defend my ability and RIGHT with violence if need be. My land, my right to do what I want, more or less.

Ah, see, my thought there is that no one really has a right to anything other than their life. You don't have a right to live comfortably or the way you want to, just to live. And if you mess up bad enough, you can loose that only right.

Offline Noelle

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2011, 12:10:53 AM »
However I find that doesn't tend to get anything done.

You can get things done by pushing your [general 'your'] narrow world-view onto people who don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean they're worthwhile things. If you're going to push through legislation just to "get things done" and then realize, oh hey, that was a pretty stupid idea/it doesn't work/nobody likes it/all of the above and then repeal it in a few years -- or worse, never actually get around to fixing it to the point it snowballs into one big disaster, well, what did you actually accomplish? (Spoiler: nothing.)

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But logic is a silly beast which doesn't really apply to humans.
You can't dismiss logic and then try to use it to debate. If logic "doesn't apply to humans" (um, erm...I am almost certain it does, given I'm using it right now and it serves my life as a human quite well, thank you, given it allows me to make decisions that may or may not affect my chances of survival on a daily basis), then you are either admitting that everything you're saying is illogical nonsense and let's just end the debate with that or...you're not human? I'm not really sure how else to take that, honestly.

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I'd also argue Jon Stewart's Rally to Restore Sanity is more about controlling fear than anything else. That altruism doesn't exist... people are pushing through that line to get to work because they have no other choice. It's either deal with it and try not to anger yourself along the way, or get yourself all worked up by trying to rush-rush-rush. People just don't do things out of the kindness of their heart In most cases they are either looking for a shiny spot in heaven or will want something from you later.

My wager is that you're pushing your own worldview on literally everyone else in existence and speaking on behalf of others who don't necessarily agree with you where you have no authority to.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 12:30:53 AM by Noelle »

Offline DudelRok

Re: Individual Choices Affect Community - Smoking Question
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2011, 12:45:12 AM »
You can get things done by pushing your narrow world-view onto people who don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean they're worthwhile things. If you're going to push through legislation just to "get things done" and then realize, oh hey, that was a pretty stupid idea/it doesn't work/nobody likes it/all of the above and then repeal it in a few years -- or worse, never actually get around to fixing it to the point it snowballs into one big disaster, well, what did you actually accomplish? (Spoiler: nothing.)

But what did segregating people solve?

Oh wait... nothing. Why? People still complain, people still argue that "something must be done," the argument of "health and pocket," etc etc etc. I say nip it in the butt. If you are going to get whining and complaining no matter what you do, you might as well just full on go for it... especially if doing so is profitable.

You take that chance, either way. It's better to come to a quick solution and implement it for the best results. You break down the statistics, you throw the irrelevant percentages to the side and you make a choice from there. Like how a computer works. After that it just depends where the priorities of the majority in control sit.

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You can't dismiss logic and then try to use it to debate. If logic "doesn't apply to humans" (um, erm...I am almost certain it does, given I'm using it right now and it serves my life as a human quite well, thank you, given it allows me to make decisions that may or may not affect my chances of survival on a daily basis), then you are either admitting that everything you're saying is illogical nonsense and let's just end the debate with that or...you're not human? I'm not really sure how else to take that, honestly.

Actually, logic is that pleasing no one and accomplishing nothing servers no point or purpose. "Compromise" isn't actually a logical answer to a solution, it is a "common sense" solution. And using yourself as an example is now talking human (singular). I'm talking humans (plural). Humans, as a group, are far from rational or logical creatures. Thus throwing up a quick statistical solution to the problem... does not work.

There used to be smoking and non-smoking.. now it's full on not allowed in most buildings. And, as non-smokers complain, it'll progress as smokers rights are gently infringed upon (see: tacky warning labels). Though I suppose that a slow down-tilt does make for better transition than bluntly making everyone go cold turkey. So, I guess, there is that argument.

I'm also not human. :p

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My wager is that you're pushing your own worldview on literally everyone else in existence and speaking on behalf of others who don't necessarily agree with you where you have no authority to.

I have never once, ever, been honestly presented with something that could be shown as not having ulterior motives in today's environment.

The "dicks who cut in front of you" are actually hurting themselves between crap like road rage and accidents that are caused because of this. These people might be "thinking of themselves" but they ain't really thinking, at all. That self preservation (the human instinct) you were talking about goes to the core of this.