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Author Topic: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal  (Read 8082 times)

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Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2011, 11:01:00 PM »
And I have confidence in that...being a 'gay straight man' is a good place for me.
I believe the word you're looking for is "metrosexual." Or did that term stop being trendy already?

Offline Langueduchatte

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2011, 11:08:41 PM »
 XD  Yep, been called that one too..


What's in a name? that which we call a rose / By any other name would smell as sweet...

L

Offline Serephino

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2011, 08:16:35 PM »
I really hate stereotypes and labels.  I'm not all that great at sports either, except volleyball, and badminton.  Go figure...  Of course, I'm not very good at those either when classmates are screaming at me.  You would think they'd figure out that screaming and insults are counter-productive, but whatever.

I hated gym class.  Did you have issues with your male classmates not wanting to change in front of you?  I did.  It's a good thing we didn't have to shower.  That would really have been an unpleasant mess.  I wasn't really open about my feelings, but teenagers see what they want to see.  In your case they made assumptions.  In my case I was caught looking at a few guys.  Honestly, who would want to be treated like that? 

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2011, 08:37:23 PM »
Here in Texas if your like that, then it's really hard for you unless your in a democratic city like Austin or Denton.

Not that I'm gay, I just roomed with one when I went to college and he bitched a lot.

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2011, 08:51:58 PM »
I really hate stereotypes and labels.  I'm not all that great at sports either, except volleyball, and badminton.  Go figure...  Of course, I'm not very good at those either when classmates are screaming at me.  You would think they'd figure out that screaming and insults are counter-productive, but whatever.

I hated gym class.  Did you have issues with your male classmates not wanting to change in front of you?  I did.  It's a good thing we didn't have to shower.  That would really have been an unpleasant mess.  I wasn't really open about my feelings, but teenagers see what they want to see.  In your case they made assumptions.  In my case I was caught looking at a few guys.  Honestly, who would want to be treated like that? 


Not that I advocate treating people like shit, certainly you shouldn't treat someone poorly for their sexual orientation, but isn't it understandable that they would be uncomfortable changing in front of you if they knew? If you really were "caught looking", isn't that akin to, say, me (being a woman) being uncomfortable changing in a room full of men who could also presumably be looking in a less-than-innocent manner? It's one thing, I think, for heterosexual men or women to catch a glance at other men and women in the same respective locker room -- you're not changing with your eyes shut (probably) and people are just generally curious about other people, but you introduce a whole different element when there's the potential for actual interest and possibly even arousal/pleasure at seeing other people.

This brings on a whole different debate of how to accommodate people with different sexualities (if it's even possible...do you just make bisexuals change in a closet?), especially when it's so ambiguous, but I can understand and somewhat sympathize with those who feel strangely about undressing in front of someone who's attracted to their sex. It's not to say every gay man is attracted to every man just because he's got a penis (that's definitely not true), but it's kind of similar logic to why we divide men and women's locker rooms.

Offline Serephino

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2011, 09:15:37 PM »
It's not to say every gay man is attracted to every man just because he's got a penis (that's definitely not true), but it's kind of similar logic to why we divide men and women's locker rooms.

This...  No, I am not attracted to every man out there.  It's rather annoying to have people assume that.  It really isn't similar logic.  Men and women have different parts.  And hell, in some cultures men and women weren't/aren't separated. 

Also, so what if I looked?  Like I said, we didn't shower, so it wasn't like I was looking at them naked.  They never seemed to have a problem showing off for the girls.  But with me they acted like homosexuality was something they could catch from my gaze, which I didn't usually look much in the locker room.  I changed and left.  It was nothing more or less than ignorance. 

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2011, 10:22:37 PM »
This...  No, I am not attracted to every man out there.  It's rather annoying to have people assume that.  It really isn't similar logic.  Men and women have different parts.  And hell, in some cultures men and women weren't/aren't separated. 

It kind of is the same logic though. We don't just separate men and women because they have different parts. To pretend that human curiosity, attraction, and foolish hormones don't play a part is silly. I'm not uncomfortable changing in front of a man because I've got a vagina and he doesn't, I'm uncomfortable changing in front of a man because I don't want to be potentially sexually objectified. Does this mean every straight man wants every straight woman just because she has as a vagina? Nope, and yet we separate the two anyway to prevent that kind of weird and potentially humiliating situation.

Quote
Also, so what if I looked?  Like I said, we didn't shower, so it wasn't like I was looking at them naked.

That doesn't mean it can't be objectifying. Men do it to me when I'm wearing so much as a tight pair of jeans and it can be just as uncomfortable as if I were naked. To pretend that everyone should be okay with you looking at them in a potentially arousing manner is kind of absurd. It doesn't matter if you're gay or if you're straight, if they're jerks or not, the same rules of respect apply.

Quote
They never seemed to have a problem showing off for the girls.

Probably because they were actually attracted to women. They don't want your attention, they don't like men, and if they want to get the ickies about homosexuality, that's their prerogative, even if it's not right. Nobody has to be okay with letting another person ogle them, and I would bet money that they would be as weirded out by some ugly chick doing it to them, too. Nobody wants attention from people they dislike. Showing off for a group of their choosing is not an open invitation for you. This feels a bit like a 'he was asking for it' argument -- wearing a short skirt and being flirtatious or being boisterous for a group of women you want to impress is not an invitation.

Quote
But with me they acted like homosexuality was something they could catch from my gaze, which I didn't usually look much in the locker room.  I changed and left.  It was nothing more or less than ignorance. 
[/color]

Being irrationally afraid of homosexuals is ignorance. Not wanting someone to sexually objectify you is not ignorance. Big difference.

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2011, 10:27:26 PM »
Being irrationally afraid of homosexuals is ignorance.
I think homophobes aren't trying to be ignorant, they fear them. They can't help it.

That's like saying someone who's afraid of the water is ignorant of the ocean's beauty.

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2011, 10:41:56 PM »
I think what is technically considered a 'homophobe' is probably pretty rare in the world in spite of how often the term is thrown around to describe those who simply hate/feel disgusted by/disapprove of homosexuality for other reasons.

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2011, 10:44:46 PM »
I think what is technically considered a 'homophobe' is probably pretty rare in the world in spite of how often the term is thrown around to describe those who simply hate/feel disgusted by/disapprove of homosexuality for other reasons.

I actually have a dear friend who is deathly afraid of all things homosexual. We get him in a room with someone like that and he starts to freak out and yell at me for bringing them there and I'll be all "It's not like I knew you were going to react this way!"

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2011, 11:14:50 PM »
Personal anecdotes are hardly indicative of a larger trend. More often than not, we toss around the word 'homophobe' as shorthand for people who express some kind of negative attitude towards homosexuals. This is not the same thing as a phobia.

To break it down:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml

26.2% of adults in the US have some kind of disorder. From here, they divide it up further...

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/index.shtml

18% of that goes to anxiety disorder, which also encompasses "specific phobias", as they report.

Agoraphobia: .8%
General anxiety disorder: 3.1%
OCD: 1%
Panic disorder: 2.7%
PTSD: 3.5%
Social phobia: 6.8%
"Specific phobia" (they note: "Specific phobia involves marked and persistent fear and avoidance of a specific object or situation. This type of phobia includes, but is not limited to, the fear of heights, spiders, and flying."): 8.7%.

So if you'd like to factor diagnosed homophobia in with that 8.7%, do remember that that 8.7% is even further divided up amongst other common phobias. Meaning it's incredibly unlikely that every single person who disapproves of homosexuality is an honest-to-goodness homophobe. Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of their behavior either way, but for the common parlance (such as my other post was getting at), disliking homosexuals for reasons other than a true phobia is most likely born from ignorance and in spite of this, it's still creepy and voyeuristic to stare at people in an objectifying way.

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2011, 11:38:55 PM »
I was just making a joke. Sorry it seemed that you took me so seriously to look all that up.

Offline Jude

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2011, 11:52:56 PM »
Backing up a bit here to an earlier post of Noelle's,
Quote
Being irrationally afraid of homosexuals is ignorance. Not wanting someone to sexually objectify you is not ignorance. Big difference.
I don't know that being irrationally afraid of homosexuals is ignorance.  If you're afraid of homosexuals because of ignorance than that (ignorance) is the reason why you're afraid of them.  Irrationality implies that good sense should lead to a different conclusion, but you come to that erroneous conclusion regardless.  Someone who is suffering from arachnophobia is afraid of all spiders, even those that they are aware are not harmful, because of an underlying irrational impulse.

To some extent though, this is semantics:  while it is rational to fear a dog that you believe has killed and eaten your best-friend, it's not objectively correct to fear that dog if in fact your friend is hiding behind a bush after dousing his shirt with ketchup, tearing it, and leaving it between the creature's teeth.

Either way, we can agree that referring to all types of opposition to homosexuality as homophobia is insulting to people who have real phobias and gives opponents of homosexual unwarranted cover while attempting to denigrate them at the same time.  A phobia is a psychological condition that renders its victim pathetic and pitiable, but it's also something that the person suffering from it doesn't have much control over.

What is commonly referred to as "homophobia" could be eradicated if people were more critical of their own beliefs, more discerning in what they choose to accept or reject when incorporating opinions into their worldview, and more open to new ideas.  Calling it homophobia is basically given the "homophobe" an excuse while insulting them by essentially calling them 'crazy.'

Noelle's statistics really bring up the point and highlight just how incorrect that labeling is from an empirical point of view, so I'm not really objecting to what she was saying, just elaborating on it, I guess.  Nevertheless, it was a broader point, and one that I've been hoping would be made for quite some time.  I'd really like to see how people who are really invested in the term "homophobia" respond to her points.

Offline Langueduchatte

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2011, 02:53:07 AM »
@Noelle
Thanks for clearing that up.  The difficulty (possibly) is that even when there is a precise definition and imprecise ley usage, it still doesn't get round the underlying issue of hostility toward another group of people based on sexual preference... Or have I misunderstood you?  Do you know of a better descriptor (anyone)?

Oh, and (again, a personal opinion) re personal anecdotes (seriously intended ones or not) - if we are looking at things on a population level, no they don't necessary assist. But even humble anecdote is a form of evidence, and not to be dismissed; allbeit "small picture"' rather than "big picture" evidence. It provides insights into the seething Gaussian mass.
[/talking bollocks]
L


Offline Oniya

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2011, 03:03:23 AM »
Well, hostility towards a group of people, simply by virtue of those people being part of a certain group is generally called 'bigotry' or 'prejudice'.

Just my $0.02

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2011, 07:25:04 AM »
@Noelle
Thanks for clearing that up.  The difficulty (possibly) is that even when there is a precise definition and imprecise ley usage, it still doesn't get round the underlying issue of hostility toward another group of people based on sexual preference... Or have I misunderstood you?  Do you know of a better descriptor (anyone)?

Absolutely, you're right. As I said in my post, no matter what you call them, their treatment of homosexuals is still unacceptable, but in some ways, syntax does matter -- it's not just being a pedant about it. It's always worth knowing why your 'opponents' feel the way they do because it helps you better understand how to reach them at a personal level and possibly make a difference in their point of view. Boiling their ideological views (since hatred of homosexuality is typically religiously-based with some cultural urging) down to simple 'homophobia', no matter its colloquial use, is kind of marginalizing the bigger issue at hand. Dealing with the fact that someone's ignorance is being fueled by their religion is not an easy thing, but it's advantageous to know because essentially, your lifestyle is an attack on their religion. Dehumanizing people and lowering them through things like righteous indignation and religious zeal is the easiest way these people justify treating you poorly ("Why? 'Cause you're a sinner and I'm forgiven nya nya suck it beeotch, etc."). Now we're starting to get somewhere.

Quote
Oh, and (again, a personal opinion) re personal anecdotes (seriously intended ones or not) - if we are looking at things on a population level, no they don't necessary assist. But even humble anecdote is a form of evidence, and not to be dismissed; allbeit "small picture"' rather than "big picture" evidence. It provides insights into the seething Gaussian mass.
[/talking bollocks]
L

Meh, anecdotes are largely unreliable, which is why I don't like using them and it's why they're also not really counted as sound evidence, at least not usually. The human mind does everything it can to trick you into false memories, exaggerations, confirmation bias, the whole gamut of fallacies within. You're right in that it can be indicative of personal beliefs held within the mass, but even within that mass, how widespread is it? And if it's not widespread at all, what has that anecdote shown us except that a negligible amount of people, at least one that we know of, actually buys it? Paired with more quantitative evidence to give it slightly more legitimacy and applicability to get insight into the psyche of some of these people? That's more like it.

Offline Nicholas

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2011, 09:35:44 AM »
If homosexuality should be illegal, eating apples should be, too.

And, I too dislike stereotyping. It's shallow and serves no purpose.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 09:36:48 AM by Nicholas »

Offline Silk

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2011, 09:47:34 AM »
Not that I advocate treating people like shit, certainly you shouldn't treat someone poorly for their sexual orientation, but isn't it understandable that they would be uncomfortable changing in front of you if they knew? If you really were "caught looking", isn't that akin to, say, me (being a woman) being uncomfortable changing in a room full of men who could also presumably be looking in a less-than-innocent manner? It's one thing, I think, for heterosexual men or women to catch a glance at other men and women in the same respective locker room -- you're not changing with your eyes shut (probably) and people are just generally curious about other people, but you introduce a whole different element when there's the potential for actual interest and possibly even arousal/pleasure at seeing other people.

This brings on a whole different debate of how to accommodate people with different sexualities (if it's even possible...do you just make bisexuals change in a closet?), especially when it's so ambiguous, but I can understand and somewhat sympathize with those who feel strangely about undressing in front of someone who's attracted to their sex. It's not to say every gay man is attracted to every man just because he's got a penis (that's definitely not true), but it's kind of similar logic to why we divide men and women's locker rooms.

The problem is, where do you draw the line? People with disabilities, or amputations, or trans, or embarrasing birth marks, or overweight and alike can all claim the same "I don't like people looking at me for what I am" issues and although polite, peoples eyes would be drawn to someone who is say, missing his lower left arm.  By far the easiest fix is to have changing cubicles rather than rooms, but that has already been implimented in quite a few places already.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 09:56:08 AM by Silk »

Offline rick957

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2011, 11:41:48 AM »
I just skimmed over this thread today for the first time, and I wanted to point out something.

This is one of the most remarkable things I've ever seen, anywhere:

Quote
I really had to sit down and think about what I've posted. It does, now, make sense that a person is ultimately inclined towards one sexuality through their birth.  Thanks Shjade, for understanding my point of view. I still believe, to some degree, people choose whether or not to be straight or gay, solely on a conscience level. You're spot-on.

It appears that this person was convinced to change a strongly-held personal view by engaging in rational discourse with other people who had different views.

Seriously, in my opinion, that pretty much NEVER happens. 

Most people who engage in rational debate with other people believe that they themselves are open to changing their views based on their discussions with others, when in fact, most people form their personal views based on emotion or cultural upbringing or peer influence, and those views are largely impervious to change by the mere process of reasoning ... especially if the reasoning is influenced by others and not strictly a matter of private reflection ... especially especially if the discussion happens in any kind of public setting, where no one wants to do anything remotely resembling losing face in front of another person.

So anyway.  Just sayin'.  :)

Wow!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 11:43:05 AM by rick957 »

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2011, 02:48:10 PM »
If homosexuality should be illegal, eating apples should be, too.

Bah!  I say we outlaw heterosexuality.  Make it punishable by death.  Now let's see how much of a 'choice' sexuality is.

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2011, 07:01:40 PM »
And, I too dislike stereotyping. It's shallow and serves no purpose.

Not necessarily! Grouping things together in a convenient box is a pretty standard function of the human brain. It categorizes things for easier retrieval later so the brain can say, "Hey, I've encountered this before, so this is the way I should react". It's not necessarily fair or just, as we've seen with homosexuals, but being totally devoid of judgment on any living thing ever isn't the solution, either. Stereotyping serves a purpose, but as creatures who have overcome base instinct, we should be able to reason above that, seeing how we've already reasoned past many of our other outdated instincts, as well (key word here being should :\).

The problem is, where do you draw the line? People with disabilities, or amputations, or trans, or embarrasing birth marks, or overweight and alike can all claim the same "I don't like people looking at me for what I am" issues and although polite, peoples eyes would be drawn to someone who is say, missing his lower left arm.  By far the easiest fix is to have changing cubicles rather than rooms, but that has already been implimented in quite a few places already.

I think this is a debate that is largely different from sexual attraction. Being insecure is not the same as not wanting to be sexually objectified. Being sexually objectified, in fact, is directly opposite to the notion of people looking at you "for who you are". Would you or anyone else here argue for unisex locker rooms to change in if it really doesn't matter? If we separate by sex for more than just your body parts, that implies there is another factor involved. We've all seen it in pop culture more than enough times -- the mischievous teenage boys trying to drill holes through the wall to gaze in on the naked girls. That is directly related to sexual orientation and sexual attraction.

With that in mind, I would be open to someone explaining to me how this instance of verboten locker room peeping is considered inappropriate and perverted, but how a gay man or woman peeping on those they're attracted to of the same sex in the same locker room is not.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't really have the perfect solution for something like this. I'm not sure how we could go about improving upon the locker room situation to be more accommodating, especially as it becomes more and more acceptable to be openly gay in our society. There are always going to be exceptions that slip through the cracks that have to innovate their own method of dealing with things, but I don't see being uncomfortable changing in the same room as a gay person as something totally outlandish or hard to understand.

Offline Silk

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2011, 05:06:44 AM »
Except that the results are still the same, just the reason behind it is different. It still results in people paying an unwanted attention to someone else, the only real difference is why, and that its now the majority rather than the minority that is being looked at.

Offline Langueduchatte

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2011, 08:13:25 AM »
Quote
As I mentioned earlier, I don't really have the perfect solution for something like this

Which brings up the possibility that there isn't one...
In is possible that it returns to what you and others have written previously about it. Staring at someone in a locker room because they have physical impairments is not necessarily socially acceptable, but is arguably more understandable from the "does not conform to the norm" therefore people stare perspective. The sexual aspect becomes more complex. So, guys in a locker room may "look up to" certain others as the alpha male and look in admiration. Is this sexual? One might argue no , definitely not. But there is still a great deal of "homoerotic" behaviour that appears to pervade western male culture. The difficulty, I suppose, is when does the unspoken barrier get crossed?  Are those who are perceived to be homosexual breaking tacit rules of homoerotic behaviour by crossing the barrier of having thought about it to having done something about it?  In male behaviours relating to anti-homosexuality this may be a contributor to the threatening behavior that occurs in such situations. Personally, I think there may be a bit of a deep-seated fear that if they went through with it that they might actually enjoy it.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2011, 10:46:47 AM »
But there is still a great deal of "homoerotic" behaviour that appears to pervade western male culture. The difficulty, I suppose, is when does the unspoken barrier get crossed?  Are those who are perceived to be homosexual breaking tacit rules of homoerotic behaviour by crossing the barrier of having thought about it to having done something about it?  In male behaviours relating to anti-homosexuality this may be a contributor to the threatening behavior that occurs in such situations.

Maybe they should ban butt-slapping in football, bro-hugs, and [noembed]that Bud Light commercial[/noembed].  (is kidding, of course)

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2011, 03:35:16 PM »
Except that the results are still the same, just the reason behind it is different. It still results in people paying an unwanted attention to someone else, the only real difference is why, and that its now the majority rather than the minority that is being looked at.

So why should we separate the sexes at all if it is as insignificant as you are implying it to be?

Maybe it's a failure of understanding on my part, but it almost sounds like people are taking offense to the idea that straight people aren't comfortable being looked at in a potentially sexual way by a gay person. This is baffling to me.

Which brings up the possibility that there isn't one...

That was the point. I don't know that I'm seriously advocating that we divide locker rooms up into as few groups as possible to avoid any and all weird situations (it's neither practical nor possible), but my original objection was to Serephino's mindset. Being uncomfortable at someone looking at you in a sexually explicit way may be due in part to a hypothetical hatred of homosexuality, but I would be similarly creeped out if it were a heterosexual male looking at me in a locker room setting.

Quote
In is possible that it returns to what you and others have written previously about it. Staring at someone in a locker room because they have physical impairments is not necessarily socially acceptable, but is arguably more understandable from the "does not conform to the norm" therefore people stare perspective. The sexual aspect becomes more complex. So, guys in a locker room may "look up to" certain others as the alpha male and look in admiration. Is this sexual? One might argue no , definitely not. But there is still a great deal of "homoerotic" behaviour that appears to pervade western male culture. The difficulty, I suppose, is when does the unspoken barrier get crossed?  Are those who are perceived to be homosexual breaking tacit rules of homoerotic behaviour by crossing the barrier of having thought about it to having done something about it?  In male behaviours relating to anti-homosexuality this may be a contributor to the threatening behavior that occurs in such situations. Personally, I think there may be a bit of a deep-seated fear that if they went through with it that they might actually enjoy it.

Erm, it sounds to me like you're arguing that being gay is a pass to sexually objectify anyone you want without consequence and it should be okay because that other person is probably just afraid they'll like it and they do other things that could be perceived as homoerotic anyway. This does not bode well with me.

Even if that's not what you're saying, using it as justification is a bit of a poor excuse anyway -- what does it matter, even if they really are just "afraid they might like it"? Isn't it their business as to whether or not they want to explore that and through what means, if any? If a man used that excuse against a woman, you know that just wouldn't fly; you can't say "I grabbed your ass, but I thought you might like it!" It doesn't matter if I did or didn't like it, forcing others in vulnerable situations to confront that is always inappropriate. It doesn't matter if I like to make out with girls at the bar or if a man wants to do dumb stuff like snap each other with towels out of the shower, it's not a carte blanche for anyone else in the locker room to stare in an objectifying manner at other people in a state of undress.

I don't deny that their states of outrage can be overblown due to an underlying hatred or disapproval of gays, and that much I would not try to justify. However, I can understand their discomfort with the idea of taking their clothes off in front of homosexual individuals in the same light that I would not want to change my clothes in a locker room full of men for the same reason.