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Author Topic: League of Legends  (Read 146669 times)

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Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1575 on: June 12, 2013, 05:02:38 PM »
They are coming to those maps because some champs pretty much needs them. Lizard Elder and Hecarim for example.

And he needs that...why?

I'm honestly not sure where I'd even have room for that on Hecarim on HA.

X-flavor Boots (probably either Tabi or Ionic, maaaaybe boots 3), Randuin's, Cleaver, Maw of Malmortius, Zephyr (movepeed + tenacity + more CDR = yes please), Iceborne Gauntlet. There's a nice rounded-out build for tanky initiating Hecarim vs. just about any balanced-ish comp. If the enemy team has Teemo or Shaco or someone else who's giving you trap/stealth issues, maybe trade out the Zephyr for Lightbringer or something.

All the Elder Lizard really has going for it is cost effectiveness, which is nice if you're a jungler and don't have much gold going your way. On HA where everyone has insane gold generation pretty much regardless, it's a waste of a slot you could be using for a much more impactful item.

Offline ofDelusions

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1576 on: June 12, 2013, 05:08:16 PM »
And he needs that...why?

I'm honestly not sure where I'd even have room for that on Hecarim on HA.

X-flavor Boots (probably either Tabi or Ionic, maaaaybe boots 3), Randuin's, Cleaver, Maw of Malmortius, Zephyr (movepeed + tenacity + more CDR = yes please), Iceborne Gauntlet. There's a nice rounded-out build for tanky initiating Hecarim vs. just about any balanced-ish comp. If the enemy team has Teemo or Shaco or someone else who's giving you trap/stealth issues, maybe trade out the Zephyr for Lightbringer or something.

All the Elder Lizard really has going for it is cost effectiveness, which is nice if you're a jungler and don't have much gold going your way. On HA where everyone has insane gold generation pretty much regardless, it's a waste of a slot you could be using for a much more impactful item.
 
Well Hecarim can reapply Elder Lizard's passive in large area around all the time. Together with Iceborne it can cheaply provide  all the offense he needs or can even afford to get with just two items.

Well I'll ask it this way, is there any good reason to not have Jungle items available in ARAM? Any?

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1577 on: June 12, 2013, 05:11:49 PM »
Yes: people on my team will think they must be good to buy 'cause why else would Riot have enabled them. Sounds to me like a good reason to not have them available.

I can see it now.

"Amumu, seriously, could you please get a bulwark for us?"

"I can't. I'd have to sell my Spirit of the Golem. I need that shit."

*sigh*

Offline Kaedia

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1578 on: June 12, 2013, 05:17:16 PM »
My biggest problem with them being in Howling Abyss is the fact they are designed to be jungle items. With the lack of a jungle they actually have little meaning other than being cost efficient items that are cost efficient because they were designed for the jungle. Butcher will have no effect in Howling Abyss since it only affects Monster not Minions. So you are solely picking the item for its cost efficient early stats. I personally feel it needs to be remade or rebalanced if it stays in Howling Abyss. Cost increased and useless stats removed. As is it is just a very odd item to have on Howling Abyss. I'd be fine with them if they were tweaked.

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1579 on: June 12, 2013, 05:19:28 PM »
Would the cost not go down it Butcher was removed?  If you're removing a stat/ability from it albeit a useless one in HA, you'd need to pay less for sure.

Offline ofDelusions

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1580 on: June 12, 2013, 05:25:33 PM »
Yes: people on my team will think they must be good to buy 'cause why else would Riot have enabled them. Sounds to me like a good reason to not have them available.

I can see it now.

"Amumu, seriously, could you please get a bulwark for us?"

"I can't. I'd have to sell my Spirit of the Golem. I need that shit."

*sigh*

By that logic you should remove many items from the game. And they can be good buys at times.

My biggest problem with them being in Howling Abyss is the fact they are designed to be jungle items. With the lack of a jungle they actually have little meaning other than being cost efficient items that are cost efficient because they were designed for the jungle. Butcher will have no effect in Howling Abyss since it only affects Monster not Minions. So you are solely picking the item for its cost efficient early stats. I personally feel it needs to be remade or rebalanced if it stays in Howling Abyss. Cost increased and useless stats removed. As is it is just a very odd item to have on Howling Abyss. I'd be fine with them if they were tweaked.
Is it really a problem that there are items that are cost effective early? They aren't really overpowered any more so IMO their presence in the game makes it better by adding viable options.

Offline Kaedia

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1581 on: June 12, 2013, 05:29:18 PM »
Not really. The cost efficiency of the item doesn't take into account Butcher because it's hard to put a cost value on. Using just the base stats of Elder Lizard for example you are getting 2646g worth of stats for a 2000g item not even including the Butcher effect. It was Riots way of solving Junglers falling behind; giving them a really cost efficient item they can buy early on. That's been the problem with the items and why they've gotten a lot of nerfs; not including Butcher they are worth more than what you pay for them. That's also saying on Elder Lizard you aren't adding in the True Damage into the gold value of the item.

Is it really a problem that there are items that are cost effective early? They aren't really overpowered any more so IMO their presence in the game makes it better by adding viable options.

Yes. When you make an item cost efficient for the stats it offers you mark the item as a 'must buy' in many cases. It does the opposite if you are wanting diversity. If you get more stats for buying item A which is cheaper than item B which offers similar stats but costs more you are going to buy item A.

Are they over powered? Not really. It's very marginal. Are they unbalanced? Yes. I'm just saying they need to be balanced for the map.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 05:34:25 PM by Zefie »

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1582 on: June 12, 2013, 05:31:59 PM »
Yes: people on my team will think they must be good to buy 'cause why else would Riot have enabled them. Sounds to me like a good reason to not have them available.

I can see it now.

"Amumu, seriously, could you please get a bulwark for us?"

"I can't. I'd have to sell my Spirit of the Golem. I need that shit."

*sigh*

But that's their decision to make, and if they want to make it, they are allowed to.  It doesn't necessarily make it better for the team, but it's still their option.

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1583 on: June 12, 2013, 07:06:48 PM »
Right, which is why they shouldn't be given the option to buy worse items that they're only buying because "it's recommended."

I can see an argument for the jungle items being good for quick cheap stats if your team is getting pounded hard and you're way behind, but realistically if you're in bad shape like that buying the quick cheap "it'll help right now" item is only going to put you farther behind in the end, since that's money you just sank into an item that helps you more right now but doesn't help your team much if at all and it will be that much longer before you can buy something that does help the team.

It's encouraging selfish decision-making on a map that is 100% team-oriented. This makes no sense to me.

Offline apygoos

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1584 on: June 12, 2013, 07:20:37 PM »
CLG just got fisted.

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1585 on: June 12, 2013, 08:20:42 PM »
Right, which is why they shouldn't be given the option to buy worse items that they're only buying because "it's recommended."

I can see an argument for the jungle items being good for quick cheap stats if your team is getting pounded hard and you're way behind, but realistically if you're in bad shape like that buying the quick cheap "it'll help right now" item is only going to put you farther behind in the end, since that's money you just sank into an item that helps you more right now but doesn't help your team much if at all and it will be that much longer before you can buy something that does help the team.

It's encouraging selfish decision-making on a map that is 100% team-oriented. This makes no sense to me.

It doesn't have to, but they're still allowed to do it.

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1586 on: June 12, 2013, 08:47:55 PM »
...right, which is why they shouldn't be given the option to buy worse items that they're -- you didn't actually read my post, did you? :|

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1587 on: June 12, 2013, 09:18:46 PM »
...right, which is why they shouldn't be given the option to buy worse items that they're -- you didn't actually read my post, did you? :|

Oh, I read it.  They still have the option to buy whatever item they have access to in the game.  It does not matter if it helps them or you or the man in the moon.  It. Is. Their. Choice.  You may think they're retarded for choosing the items they choose, but they still get to choose them regardless.  If it were up to one person, it would not be a MOBA.

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1588 on: June 12, 2013, 09:27:35 PM »
Yes, I read what you italicized the first time, which is why I'm suggesting they shouldn't have enabled those items, so that they would not have that option.

It was not their choice prior to this patch. Now it is. And the choice is almost always going to be the wrong one when they go with the jungle items, most likely.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1589 on: June 12, 2013, 09:38:49 PM »
Yes, I read what you italicized the first time, which is why I'm suggesting they shouldn't have enabled those items, so that they would not have that option.

It was not their choice prior to this patch. Now it is. And the choice is almost always going to be the wrong one when they go with the jungle items, most likely.

When I stop seeing AD Le Blanc's then I'll agree with no jungle items in ARAM.

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1590 on: June 12, 2013, 09:58:33 PM »
When I stop seeing AD Le Blanc's then I'll agree with no jungle items in ARAM.

Amen.

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1591 on: June 12, 2013, 10:05:48 PM »
Your argument against giving people worse itemization options is that they already make bad itemization choices with the items they had before?

You realize that just strengthens my point that this can only lead to people building even worse, right?

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1592 on: June 12, 2013, 10:11:32 PM »
Your argument against giving people worse itemization options is that they already make bad itemization choices with the items they had before?

You realize that just strengthens my point that this can only lead to people building even worse, right?

If they're going to make bad choices, it doesn't matter what items are in the shop.  My argument is that what they do with their gold is their right in game, and if they want to make bad decisions, good on them.  It wont get them ahead, but they're still allowed to do it.  Simply taking items away wont make people make better decisions.  That's a 'lesser of two evils' mentality where their decision is still bad, but not as bad as what they might otherwise be able to buy.  You don't have to like it, but you have to accept that people, in game, are rarely going to buy what you think they should be buying.

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1593 on: June 12, 2013, 11:20:50 PM »
I have accepted that. I am, in fact, anticipating it happening again in future.

Thus my reasoning for not having worse items available to exacerbate the issue.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1594 on: June 12, 2013, 11:24:21 PM »
Because ARAM is so fucking serious and needs a ranked and a pro team.... /sarcasm.

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1595 on: June 12, 2013, 11:26:17 PM »
Sadly, there's not much one can do for bad players.  Bad in the fact that they are either too ignorant to look up what might be decent for their champion or even their champion's archtype or that they simply play from the recommended list.  I'm far from the best player, but even I know when to get a team enhancing item over and item that solely enhances myself, and it really didn't take that much work to learn that.

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1596 on: June 13, 2013, 01:41:55 AM »
Because ARAM is so fucking serious and needs a ranked and a pro team.... /sarcasm.

I don't recall saying anything like that. However, trolls can ruin non-serious games by throwing anything resembling a fair game out the window and turning it into a 4v5. That can suck the fun out of things pretty quick.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1597 on: June 13, 2013, 02:00:07 AM »
I don't recall saying anything like that. However, trolls can ruin non-serious games by throwing anything resembling a fair game out the window and turning it into a 4v5. That can suck the fun out of things pretty quick.

Welcome to league.  Just roll with it, really all you can do.

Offline ofDelusions

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1598 on: June 13, 2013, 07:17:49 AM »
I have accepted that. I am, in fact, anticipating it happening again in future.

Thus my reasoning for not having worse items available to exacerbate the issue.

Except that the Jungle items are actually really good items. Ancient golem is only source of tenacity for tanks if they want Ninja Tabi. Elder Lizard is extremely  cost effective and awesome for those who can reapply it constantly (Vi, Hecarim, Ezreal etc). Wraith is good when you don't want Tome for whatever reason (team has it already etc) and can't make use of AD from Gunblade or just when you need both CDR and spell vamp for whatever reason.

If your reasoning is that Ancient Golem is worse than Bulwark, then that makes 90%+ of the items in the game bad, because of how absurdly strong Bulwark is when people are grouped all the game.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1599 on: June 13, 2013, 02:13:01 PM »
Except that the Jungle items are actually really good items. Ancient golem is only source of tenacity for tanks if they want Ninja Tabi. Elder Lizard is extremely  cost effective and awesome for those who can reapply it constantly (Vi, Hecarim, Ezreal etc). Wraith is good when you don't want Tome for whatever reason (team has it already etc) and can't make use of AD from Gunblade or just when you need both CDR and spell vamp for whatever reason.

If your reasoning is that Ancient Golem is worse than Bulwark, then that makes 90%+ of the items in the game bad, because of how absurdly strong Bulwark is when people are grouped all the game.

Most people only use the supports bulwark aura as their source of MR in a typical game.  Sometime they'll have to get another source.  But yes Bulwark is hella over powered.