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Author Topic: League of Legends  (Read 143838 times)

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Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1000 on: January 11, 2013, 04:47:31 AM »
If you're looking forward to more tiger goodness, it seems that they're reducing the HP of the 'small' monsters in the jungle (IE: the small wraiths, small wolves, the small golem, the little lizards with the buffs) by about 100 or so in the upcoming patch. Means a faster clear for single target junglers like Tiger Udyr.

I believe that makes the clearing faster for AE junglers, like Phoenix Udyr. Single-target junglers would care more about an hp reduction on the large monsters, since they have to focus those down before they can worry about the little ones anyway, whereas AE junglers kill off the little ones more easily this way while they're focusing on the big ones.

Sure it benefits single-target passes, too, but not as much as the AE clears I'd think.

Offline apygoos

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1001 on: January 11, 2013, 06:09:44 AM »
with thsoe HP reduction, prolly will see so many more Jungle Darius, Udyr, Hecarim..
I would always ask "why would you ban Darius? He's not worthy of a ban" But with jungle cleartimes that will come from these HP reductions, I think he may become ban worthy thanks to the jungle, and not to top.

Offline ofDelusions

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1002 on: January 11, 2013, 09:18:35 AM »
I believe that makes the clearing faster for AE junglers, like Phoenix Udyr. Single-target junglers would care more about an hp reduction on the large monsters, since they have to focus those down before they can worry about the little ones anyway, whereas AE junglers kill off the little ones more easily this way while they're focusing on the big ones.

Sure it benefits single-target passes, too, but not as much as the AE clears I'd think.

Pretty sure its otherway around. The AoE Junglers take the small ones down fast enough anyway that its the only big ones that slow them down. They just wont care at all. Its the single target Junglers whos speed is increased by this as they still have to kill the small ones aswell after killing the big ones. The AoE junglers just AoE the small ones down while killing the big one. It doesn't matter to them if the small ones die halfway through to AoE or 1/3rd way through.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1003 on: January 11, 2013, 01:43:58 PM »
with thsoe HP reduction, prolly will see so many more Jungle Darius, Udyr, Hecarim..
I would always ask "why would you ban Darius? He's not worthy of a ban" But with jungle cleartimes that will come from these HP reductions, I think he may become ban worthy thanks to the jungle, and not to top.

I never see Darius banned because of his jungle.  I see it banned because he is a good solo top.  Yeah he has counters but so does everyone else.  I use him, Wukong or Poppy.

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1004 on: January 11, 2013, 05:42:36 PM »
Pretty sure its otherway around. The AoE Junglers take the small ones down fast enough anyway that its the only big ones that slow them down. They just wont care at all. Its the single target Junglers whos speed is increased by this as they still have to kill the small ones aswell after killing the big ones. The AoE junglers just AoE the small ones down while killing the big one. It doesn't matter to them if the small ones die halfway through to AoE or 1/3rd way through.

Mm, fair enough.

I'd imagine Darius gets banned because if he is ever left alone to farm at any point he can tear through people by mid-game, regardless how hard he might've been stomped in his lane early on with consistent ganks. He's one of those champions who's hard to make irrelevant if he's played well.

Offline Sex Bobomb

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1005 on: January 11, 2013, 05:51:06 PM »
Darius is banned because his tankyness and his ult lets him blast away at carries all day long. He's obnoxious.

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1006 on: January 11, 2013, 06:40:28 PM »
Darius is banned because his tankyness and his ult lets him blast away at carries all day long. He's obnoxious.

This.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1007 on: January 11, 2013, 09:15:07 PM »
Darius is banned because his tankyness and his ult lets him blast away at carries all day long. He's obnoxious.

But AP champs tear him the fuck up.

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1008 on: January 11, 2013, 11:26:34 PM »
But AP champs tear him the fuck up.

Depends on the champ I think.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1009 on: January 11, 2013, 11:57:46 PM »
Depends on the champ I think.

As AP eve I tear him apart.  But I also build a ap/bruiser.

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1010 on: January 12, 2013, 12:39:17 AM »
Depends on the champ I think.

Depends more on the Darius build. The guy above said "his tankyness" like Darius is inherently tanky.

He isn't. You have to build him that way, and if you do he puts out less damage - yes, even on his ult since it scales with AD.

If you stack a lot of health and magic resist on him then AP champs aren't so much a threat, but AD champs will tear him a new one (particularly if they have Ruined King or a Razor, depending on map). If he has more armor, AP champs blow him up. If he build all of that, his ult is the only thing that does significant damage, and even that is fairly manageable. He has to build damage in there somewhere to still be a factor and usually that leaves him susceptible to burstytimes, which is what AP champs do best.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1011 on: January 12, 2013, 01:53:08 AM »
I view Darius like I do Karthus.  If it wasn't for that ult they'd never be used.

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1012 on: January 12, 2013, 03:30:38 AM »
I'm fairly sure most champions wouldn't be used without their ults, so...yeah, I agree with you on that one, I guess? O.o

Darius is strong in lane because of his heavy harass due in large part to his bleed, not so much his ult. Karthus is strong in teamfights because of his ability to charge into the enemy team with a full AP build tearing things up, die, and then keep tearing things up anyway for 7 seconds after they've already killed him. His ult's icing, not the cake. Sure it's flashy and can hit anywhere on the map, but I've gotten far more kills with Karthus by just flashing into the middle of the enemy team, dying, dropping a wall on them while they're on top of my circle of doom (having just killed me) and picking people off with Q post-death. Maybe I'll ult for some cleanup if the fight's still going after I respawn. The ults get all the attention because they're flashy and do a good chunk of damage, but a Darius or Karthus whose ult is on cooldown can still kill you pretty dang hard if they're built/played right.

Think of Cassiopeia's ult. It's a fair-sized nuke and covers a pretty massive area for a stun if people are looking at her. It can absolutely crush a teamfight. Does that mean it's the only reason people pick her? Well, no, she also has great casting range, deceptively high damage and excellent zoning capability even without her ult. The ult's great and can be devastating, but she's not reliant on it to do her job. The same goes for Karthus and Darius.

Offline The Unholy Potato

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1013 on: January 12, 2013, 07:32:14 AM »
Good day, summoners! I'm on the North American server, and am always looking for more people to play with! I can't claim to be particularly amazing (I topped out at a bit above 1400 this season and have wobbled downwards in the days since), but I like the game and like playing with friends. Message me if you're interested and we can discuss game times. However, I am currently taking a break from the game as my internet has been maddeningly inconsistent, and I'm tired of inadvertently screwing over my teammates.

As for the discussion at hand, I'd like to throw in my own opinion about the relative power levels of various ultimates. In general, I think Riot does an excellent job of tying together the skill sets of each champion. Because an ultimate is, by design, much more powerful than a normal skill, it isn't surprising that they're often referenced as a significant part of what makes a champion what it is. Take Poppy, for example. Her ultimate places her in a category all her own simply because she becomes functionally invulnerable for 6-8 seconds simply by using her ultimate against the least threatening member of the enemy team. Between that and her passive reduction of burst damage, she can become very "tanky" while building pure damage.

I would, however, say that certain champions are significantly more reliant on their ultimates than others. Darius is one of those who is quite reliant. The base damage is abysmal, in theory, but due to the bleed amplifying it up to a full double the normal damage, it can often take a good quarter-to-third of the health of an equivalent level, non-health stacking champion. Without it, on the other hand, Darius has to pick between damage and durability, and isn't particularly amazing at either. He suffers the scaling issues faced by all AD casters while possessing worse ratios than most.

Discussed earlier was his penchant for being banned. I think that this is largely a problem at lower skill levels, as his gameplay is relatively straightforward while offering high rewards. He isn't that difficult to play against, due to his absolutely hideous immobility, but doing so is, in my opinion, harder than playing as him.

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1014 on: January 12, 2013, 08:30:22 AM »
Depends more on the Darius build. The guy above said "his tankyness" like Darius is inherently tanky.

He isn't. You have to build him that way, and if you do he puts out less damage - yes, even on his ult since it scales with AD.

If you stack a lot of health and magic resist on him then AP champs aren't so much a threat, but AD champs will tear him a new one (particularly if they have Ruined King or a Razor, depending on map). If he has more armor, AP champs blow him up. If he build all of that, his ult is the only thing that does significant damage, and even that is fairly manageable. He has to build damage in there somewhere to still be a factor and usually that leaves him susceptible to burstytimes, which is what AP champs do best.

Isn't this true for almost any champion?


Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1015 on: January 12, 2013, 05:48:50 PM »
Isn't this true for almost any champion?

Not really. Some champions have abilities that make them inherently harder to kill. Rammus, Malphite, Nautilus (to a much lesser extent, but it's still a pretty potent shield on a low cooldown), Blitzcrank (who can pump mana to practically have a free Guardian Angel), Singed (dear lord Singed), etc., these are champions who, with even minimal tanking items, can still prove to be rather beefy because of their kit being designed to help them survive. This is why some champions are referred to as tanks; champions who can build tank items and become threatening that way are tanky dps, which is almost completely item-reliant. If tanky dps champs don't build tanky, they're not going to live up to the name. All movement speed Singed, on the other hand, still proves harder to kill than your average champion while his ult is active because that gives him tanky stats all on its own.

Darius' entire kit is for murder, even his passive. If he just builds damage he has nothing to help him survive in any way. He doesn't even have an escape ability. He just has a big freaking axe.

Regarding Darius' ratios, I don't track the math on that kind of thing most of the time. Doesn't matter a whole lot to me. Do keep in mind that all of his scaling on abilities is basically increased a small amount by the AD scaling on his passive bleed on top of the scaling into the abilities themselves. If his ratios are lower than average for a bruiser champ it's probably because of that double-dipping, so to speak.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 05:51:10 PM by Shjade »

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1016 on: January 14, 2013, 02:01:23 AM »
Just got out of a hour and twenty minute blind pick.... And won.  I love Eve mid.

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1017 on: January 15, 2013, 02:27:29 PM »
Not really. Some champions have abilities that make them inherently harder to kill. Rammus, Malphite, Nautilus (to a much lesser extent, but it's still a pretty potent shield on a low cooldown), Blitzcrank (who can pump mana to practically have a free Guardian Angel), Singed (dear lord Singed), etc., these are champions who, with even minimal tanking items, can still prove to be rather beefy because of their kit being designed to help them survive. This is why some champions are referred to as tanks; champions who can build tank items and become threatening that way are tanky dps, which is almost completely item-reliant. If tanky dps champs don't build tanky, they're not going to live up to the name. All movement speed Singed, on the other hand, still proves harder to kill than your average champion while his ult is active because that gives him tanky stats all on its own.

Darius' entire kit is for murder, even his passive. If he just builds damage he has nothing to help him survive in any way. He doesn't even have an escape ability. He just has a big freaking axe.

Regarding Darius' ratios, I don't track the math on that kind of thing most of the time. Doesn't matter a whole lot to me. Do keep in mind that all of his scaling on abilities is basically increased a small amount by the AD scaling on his passive bleed on top of the scaling into the abilities themselves. If his ratios are lower than average for a bruiser champ it's probably because of that double-dipping, so to speak.

And any of these champions without tank items will go down like a cheap whore on rent day without tanky items.  Granted, some will be more annoying than others because of CC and what not, but their kit alone will not save them.  It's a combination of build and skill, not simply one or the other.

Offline apygoos

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1018 on: January 15, 2013, 03:09:40 PM »
I just want Thresh, i want him now D:

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1019 on: January 15, 2013, 03:43:35 PM »
What's a Thresh?

Offline apygoos

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1020 on: January 15, 2013, 03:46:39 PM »
The new Tank/supp that i read about that's on the PBE

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1021 on: January 15, 2013, 03:52:54 PM »
:o  He sounds intriguing!

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1022 on: January 15, 2013, 05:27:01 PM »
I'm interested in Thresh but from what I've seen of his kit, the shield and ult are only the decent part, his grab isn't a full blitz grab it drags them a bit but that is all and that pull or push away ability is probably going to be more of an issue than help.

Offline Ryven

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Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1023 on: January 15, 2013, 05:52:43 PM »
If what I read isn't just rumors, the grab is more of a blitz/amumu combo where in the target is dragged, but another use of the ability brings Thresh to them.

Offline Shjade

Re: League of Legends
« Reply #1024 on: January 16, 2013, 01:23:14 AM »
If what I read isn't just rumors, the grab is more of a blitz/amumu combo where in the target is dragged, but another use of the ability brings Thresh to them.

Sounds sorta like a two-part Nautilus grab?