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Author Topic: Sometimes I'm proud of my state (Steve Simon on an amendment to ban gay marriage  (Read 3038 times)

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Offline VekseidTopic starter


Offline Sure

Something that's always bugged me about the argument about whether being homosexual is genetic: Even if it is determined by nurture it would still not be a choice in the sense of gardening or skateboarding. Nobody consciously chooses the way nurture affects people, least of all themselves.

Even if it is proven that homosexuality is not genetic, that still does not imply it is a choice, any more than I choose to have certain sexual fetishes (which I'm guessing are not genetic).

Offline Brandon

He stole one of my key arguments!

Alright alright he said it really well and that argument does make most poeple reconsider their standpoint. More people should use it, of course the people at the other end could answer "never". That shuts down the argument right there for them
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 05:24:20 AM by Brandon »

Offline Zakharra

 That is very good and turns the arguement on them.

Offline Jude

I love this guy's argument and tone about the whole thing.  He does a great job of putting forth a passionate, but civil defense of gay marriage.  I wish all of the debating, activism, and commentary on this subject was so well-spoken, fair, and calm.  And I agree with 100% even though I'm not necessarily religious -- this is exactly what we need too, the religious speaking to the religious.  Secular people can't quite make the same inroads with them that their religious brethren can.

Offline VekseidTopic starter

Something that's always bugged me about the argument about whether being homosexual is genetic: Even if it is determined by nurture it would still not be a choice in the sense of gardening or skateboarding. Nobody consciously chooses the way nurture affects people, least of all themselves.

Even if it is proven that homosexuality is not genetic, that still does not imply it is a choice, any more than I choose to have certain sexual fetishes (which I'm guessing are not genetic).

It doesn't need to be genetic to be a nature issue. We have terms like 'congenital' for that, reflecting development in the womb.

Offline Noelle

Something that's always bugged me about the argument about whether being homosexual is genetic: Even if it is determined by nurture it would still not be a choice in the sense of gardening or skateboarding. Nobody consciously chooses the way nurture affects people, least of all themselves.

Even if it is proven that homosexuality is not genetic, that still does not imply it is a choice, any more than I choose to have certain sexual fetishes (which I'm guessing are not genetic).

Nurture would imply, however, that you can control the outcome as a parent and that raising a gay child (and the percentage of gays in the US anyway is estimated at less than 10%) could mean you did something wrong. People already make up all kinds of outrageous things to support the idea that there was something wrong about their upbringing, or to pass it off as a rebellious streak. The last thing any of us really need is the idea that, for instance, sexual abuse gives rise to homosexuality -- it really would not make things better.

Even if homosexuality were found to be a 'nurture' thing, it would hardly lessen the stigma. In fact, we'd have tangible places to point our fingers at just by examining the way a person was raised. It can be very much like the way hobbies/interests are developed in that manner. People who have inclinations towards art or music or sports don't necessarily develop those things independently -- for instance, if two actor parents give birth to a child, there's a good chance that child will be more exposed and encouraged to pursue the arts. It's really not a far cry, then, to say that Mrs. Jones' husband died, she then let her son take ballet where he was even further emasculated while lacking a male influence in his life, and suddenly you've got yourself a flaming homosexual. Certain behaviors and hobbies and interests can be encouraged and nurtured over time -- my parents were always very supportive of my artistic inclinations, which probably plays a big role into why I flourished artistically over the years. If someone wants to make a connection and say that a little boy was raised to be gay by his mother, I can just see the extraneous child abuse cases arising now by the religious right...

And, for the record, sexual fetishes aren't a great comparison. I'm pretty sure I have little to no desire for people to treat me and my sexual orientation the way they treat people with, say, foot fetishes. That is to say, not well at all. Fetishes aren't really looked upon kindly in the US.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 06:37:03 PM by Noelle »

Offline alxnjsh

Veks, be proud of another (obviously written before Steve Simon's testimony):

Quote
Rep. John Kriesel, R-Cottage Grove, is the first Republican in the Minnesota Legislature to announce his opposition to a proposed amendment to the Minnesota Constitution that would ban same-sex marriage, according to the Star Tribune. The bill has cleared a committee each in the Minnesota House and Senate, and Kriesel said he’s working hard to convince his Republican colleagues that the amendment is a bad idea.

“I look at it as: We are all equal,” Kriesel told the Star Tribune. “It is not right. I can’t do it. I’m very upset about this vote. I don’t like it. I think it sends the wrong message. You live once in your life and I’ve learned that the hard way. You never know when it is going to be your time. People fight to find happiness….You find someone you love and now other people are saying because I don’t consider that normal, you can’t do it?”

“It’s just wrong,” Kriesel said. “There is not anything that can move me on this.”

Kriesel was first elected in 2010 after serving in Iraq where he lost both legs. He replaced former DFL Rep. Karla Bingham in a district that typically votes DFL.

Kriesel is the only Republican in the Minnesota Legislature who has spoken out against the amendment, and he told the Star Tribune that he was working hard to convince his colleagues not to vote for the measure.

Source: http://minnesotaindependent.com/81020/republican-john-kriesel-oppose-anti-gay-marriage-amendment

Offline alxnjsh

Sadly the MN Senate just passed a bill a short while ago to propose a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman. It will surely pass the House.

Offline Major Major

You know what I'll never get? Americans are overwhelmingly Liberal on issues like gay marriage, pro-choice, pro-gun control, etc. And yet when you hear stuff like this, that whole business in Wisconsin, and so on and so on and so on, you have to wonder if somewhere between the voting public and the politicians that they vote into office there's some sort of logical and mental disconnect..

Offline Oniya

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Actually, Americans as a whole are dreadfully polarized on all those issues.  As far as elections go, this means that whichever side happens to be loudest at the time of election tends to get in, and the people that are 'with' you on the loud issue may be 'against' you on a quieter issue. 

Offline Zakharra

 I'll have to disagree on the pro-gun control. We are not overwhelmingly for it.

Offline Jude

You know what I'll never get? Americans are overwhelmingly Liberal on issues like gay marriage, pro-choice, pro-gun control, etc. And yet when you hear stuff like this, that whole business in Wisconsin, and so on and so on and so on, you have to wonder if somewhere between the voting public and the politicians that they vote into office there's some sort of logical and mental disconnect..
None of the statistical implications of your post are correct.  Americans are not overwhelmingly for any of those issues; in fact I'm not even sure that 50% of the population supports a single one of those issues.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 10:17:54 PM by Jude »

Offline Oniya

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Offline Jude

Well, I was agreeing with you :P

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Nah - I was meaning that there might be one back in Major Major's post, especially with the 'pro-gun-control' bit.  After all, everyone knows that America is a cross between the Wild West and 1920's Chicago, with Charlton Heston leading us to the Promised Land.

;D

Offline alxnjsh

Last night the MN House passed the resolution to send to vote writing in a marriage amendment outlawing same-sex marriage in the MN Constitution.

Sad day for Minnesota for sure.

Offline elone

An absolutely great speech apparently wasted on the other lawmakers. I really wish that the people of this country would realize that all men are created equal, with certain inalienable rights ... go read the friggin document. Pursuit of happiness? They don't know what it means. Separation of church and state. They don't get that one either. Stop imposing your own moral beliefs on others who do not share them.

Sorry, but intolerance really pisses me off.

Offline MasterMischief

I really wish that the people of this country would realize that all men are created equal, with certain inalienable rights ... go read the friggin document.

Unless you are black or a woman.  We eventually figured that out, but I think it is a telling reminder that the Constitution is not the end all, be all. 

I do not think all men/women/other gender identified are created equal, but we should all be treated equally.  Even that needs context as a law abiding citizin should probably be treated differently than a mass murderer, but I think you get my drift.

Offline Asuras

That was pretty damn eloquent. My hat's off.

Offline elone

Unless you are black or a woman.  We eventually figured that out, but I think it is a telling reminder that the Constitution is not the end all, be all. 

I do not think all men/women/other gender identified are created equal, but we should all be treated equally.  Even that needs context as a law abiding citizin should probably be treated differently than a mass murderer, but I think you get my drift.

Created equal in the eyes of the law perhaps, equal rights as they should exist. Even the mass murderer has the same rights as the law abiding citizen, at least until convicted. I simply used the constitution as an example of the theoretical rights we are supposed to have. Unfortunately these right are regularly trampled by those with power an an agenda.

Offline Caela

I loved this speech when a friend of mine posted it on FB and I still love it now. I will never get why some people are so damned hot and bothered over who someone else chooses to love. Why the hell does it matter to them so much? The whole "sanctity of marriage" argument doesn't fly with me either, not with a divorce rate up over 50% in this country. Most straights don't see, or treat marriages as sacred in the least,if they did the divorce rate/rate of cheating/and number of multiple marriages many people have would be far lower than it is. In the end it is a legal contract granting the person you love certain rights, responsibilities and  privileges as well as legal protections in each others lives and effects no one but THEM. Nobody who is of legal age and sound mind should be barred from signing a legal contract.

Offline MasterMischief

Created equal in the eyes of the law perhaps, equal rights as they should exist. Even the mass murderer has the same rights as the law abiding citizen, at least until convicted. I simply used the constitution as an example of the theoretical rights we are supposed to have. Unfortunately these right are regularly trampled by those with power an an agenda.

I agree.  My comment was less directed at you and more at those who would hide behind the constitution.