Discrimination of Felons in the Workplace

[Trieste]

Everyone else: Any objections if I quote you when I continue work on this paper?

Thank you for asking, but I would prefer you don't. And please do make sure you get explicit permission from members before quoting them, in case they didn't see your 'by the way'. :)

[Oniya]

I don't mind if I'm quoted, but I don't see it adding much weight to your arguments, as I am nothing more than an average citizen (with an In Session fetish, and a fan-girl crush on Vinnie Politan).  I'm no expert in human behavior, have done no research into recidivism, etc.

[ADarkstar]

Trieste: I plan on asking people when I go to quote them. *smiles* Its part of avoiding plagiarism which can get me expelled from my college.

Oniya: Remember, most of my paper is my own opinion with enough sprinkles of fact to illustrate my points. *grins*

~Adena

[Oniya]

Aye, but most of what you're getting here (unless there's a link to an article or study) is other people's opinions - not necessarily facts.

[ADarkstar]

Which, when properly cited I can use in my paper. *grins* I've got a lot more that isn't in the paper that I can also use fact wise. No worries, got it covered.

[rick957]

As to quoting what I said:  feel free.  (Totally off-topic:  I guess this isn't as unheard-of anymore, but the idea of turning in a paper with a quote attributed to "rick957" -- it just makes me chuckle.  ;)  Times change ...)

[RubySlippers]

Ultimately, I think it's a vicious circle. Ex-cons are discriminated against because people assume they will re-offend, leading them to be stuck in dead-end jobs and very likely to re-offend...which society then uses as evidence to continue the trend of not hiring them.
 

So they can get jobs just they are not good jobs, so they are working. What do people expect after being convicted of a felony to walk out and say fine give me a good job over this person of the same age and background that was not in prison? The world is not like that employers can hire who they wish and its hard once your convicted of a felony that is life as it is your going to have a far harder time of things. In Florida you can't even enter several licensed professional like Cosmetology if your a felon that is what it is.

It may not always be fair but why do you expect an employer to take a risk on a ex-con when they should be free to hire someone with a clean record?

[Oniya]

There should be a chance for them to at least work their way back into a decent job.  If someone can even just support himself on a legitimate job, he's that much less likely to fall back into illegal activities - and isn't that what society as a whole wants?

[TheGlyphstone]

Ultimately, I think it's a vicious circle. Ex-cons are discriminated against because people assume they will re-offend, leading them to be stuck in dead-end jobs and very likely to re-offend...which society then uses as evidence to continue the trend of not hiring them.
 

So they can get jobs just they are not good jobs, so they are working. What do people expect after being convicted of a felony to walk out and say fine give me a good job over this person of the same age and background that was not in prison? The world is not like that employers can hire who they wish and its hard once your convicted of a felony that is life as it is your going to have a far harder time of things. In Florida you can't even enter several licensed professional like Cosmetology if your a felon that is what it is.

It may not always be fair but why do you expect an employer to take a risk on a ex-con when they should be free to hire someone with a clean record?

See, that's exactly the attitude that DarkStar is talking about that causes the proble. Why the hell should a burglar or mugger or embezzler be banned from being able to style hair? That has nothing to do with their crime or their punishment, just a attitude of "once a criminal, always a criminal - scum like that doesn't deserve to live decently like the rest of us" (not putting those words in your mouth, but it's a fair generalization of a lot of 'tough-on-crime' attitudes). And that's when the vicious circle starts - you as a hypothetical employer reject a hypothetical ex-con's job application solely on the grounds that he's an ex-con, no knowledge of what his crime was; he has this happen over and over, decides that since no one is willing to believe he's reformed, he might as well start stealing again, because clearly he's a no-good dirtball.

There should be a chance for them to at least work their way back into a decent job.  If someone can even just support himself on a legitimate job, he's that much less likely to fall back into illegal activities - and isn't that what society as a whole wants?

Precisely.

It's like that story (and movie) Minority Report, the one with Tom Cruise where psychics are used to detect 'pre-crimes' and arrest criminals before they commit a crime. Felons with a record are permanently stained, and end up being prematurely convicted of a crime they haven't even committed yet, and might never commit - except that society has already decided they will re-offend, and bars so many doors to them that re-offending becomes the only way they can support themselves.

@ADarkStar: If I'm quoted, I'd prefer it be anonymously. With that caveat, go ahead.

[RubySlippers]

I do agree ex-cons get a bad rap but we can't just make it illegal to ask about criminal records either an employer has a right to know that if a felony, and most will do background checks now. So what is there to be done an ex-con is simply black marked and removing that is going to take years if its done at all.

In Tampa many panhandlers are ex-cons since they can't get work I don't like it but stepping on the right of an employer to hire or not hire people is a major issue for me also unless there is no grounds to an ex-con could pose a threat that is enough to not hire the person to some people. It may not be fair but the world is not fair.

[TheGlyphstone]

I do agree ex-cons get a bad rap but we can't just make it illegal to ask about criminal records either an employer has a right to know that if a felony, and most will do background checks now. So what is there to be done an ex-con is simply black marked and removing that is going to take years if its done at all.

In Tampa many panhandlers are ex-cons since they can't get work I don't like it but stepping on the right of an employer to hire or not hire people is a major issue for me also unless there is no grounds to an ex-con could pose a threat that is enough to not hire the person to some people. It may not be fair but the world is not fair.

There's no inalienable human right to discriminate against people, not that it stops anyone from doing so. Removing the 'black box' from an employment application isn't stepping on the right of an employer to hire or not hire people any more than it would be to say an employer can't ask about your religious affiliation or your favorite flavor of ice cream. No one is forcing said employer to hire the ex-con, all it's doing is preserving the ex-con's right to privacy for something completely unrelated to the job. The employer can always do a background check if they want, and most professions where you wouldn't want a felon already do that - anything that has a weapon involved, for example, and most financial positions, so it's not changing anything with regards to safety. Besides, "it'd take too long to change" is a horrid argument to make, since far too many injustices and outright crimes were justified for years on that logic alongside "it'll change eventually" - that change has to start somewhere and sometime.

[RP7466]

RP7466: That is an interesting point regarding background checks. Looking at the way things are done currently in many places, this 'middle ground' is not something people want to find though.
Thank you all for your comments, they are appreciated. ~Adena

I meant something more along the lines or restructuring the background check. Like maybe enter the social security number in one column, and then enter the list of offenses in another. Then the search program would search for a match.

If ive said anything worth quoting go for it.

[Yorubi]

Honestly a criminal can clean up just as well as clean individual can go bad. A one time felon or someone who might of did something when they were younger shouldn't have it looming over them their entire life, specially when it might be such a tiny crime. So long as they served their time and show being good for so long, they shouldn't have to have it looming over them. The fact it does, and the big flaws with the justice system, are the reason why people tend to go back to crime if they should end up doing that.

[ADarkstar]

Yorubi:

This is very true, but at the same time there are those ex-cons who have committed a single crime that isn't so small-like rape and even after 10+ years it still affects them when looking for work. There are other offenses that society finds very wrong that if someone does once, and pays for it, that are still held over their heads many years later even if they have remained clean afterwards.

Glyph:

Thank you for realizing what the point of this paper was about... trying to point out errors in current practices that a few smaller groups are trying to help change. In my personal opinion, either modifying the background checks or removing the box from the initial application process is a huge step in that direction. I do feel that employers have a right to know about an ex-con's criminal record if it is relevant to the job but should wait til the person has made it past the 'application' phase of hiring and into the 'interview/2nd interview' phase before it comes to light. Because, like someone else pointed out, having a criminal record in many places of employment automatically gets the person rejected.

~Adena

[Cheka Man]

Would you hire a bank robber as a cashier, a white collar criminal to sell stocks, a sex offender to teach children, or an ex-Gitmo Bay imnate to fly planes? It is right to discriminate against felons, unless they are later proved wrongly convicted or pardoned.

[TheGlyphstone]

Would you hire a bank robber as a cashier, a white collar criminal to sell stocks, a sex offender to teach children, or an ex-Gitmo Bay imnate to fly planes? It is right to discriminate against felons, unless they are later proved wrongly convicted or pardoned.

You're singling out obvious "no's", which is somewhat biased. Would you hire that ex-Gitmo Bay inmate to teach children? Howbout that sex offender as a bank cashier? Should a serial mugger be allowed to sell stocks?

There's a reason that not all crimes are punished with 'live in prison without possibility of parole' - because not all crimes warrant being punished for your entire life.

[Oniya]

Not to mention the fact that most of the ex-Gitmo inmates never faced actual trial, and were therefore never found guilty of the crimes they were accused of.

[Will]

If they're not fit to work, then I'm at a loss as to why they're released at all.  Or why we refer to it as "paying a debt to society" when that debt will never get paid off.

[Cheka Man]

I have no criminal convictions;I stay on the straight and narrow path, but the only ones wanting to hire me are scammers. So I'm not going to feel sorry for convicted criminals.

[Will]

I do feel sympathy for them in general, as one who's had a hard time finding work in the past.  I wouldn't wish that kind of frustration on anyone, especially for what seem to me to be unfair reasons. 

[Zakharra]

If they're not fit to work, then I'm at a loss as to why they're released at all.  Or why we refer to it as "paying a debt to society" when that debt will never get paid off.

Some were released because it costs money to keep criminals in jail and they needed to kick the drug pushers, pimps, sex offenders and murderers out to make room for the  people who torture pets, kick dogs, smoke, destroy the wilderness and bilk people out of money.

It's sad, you will likely get more jail time by torturing dogs and cats in a gory way than murdering a few people.

[Will]

Which goes pretty directly to the heart of the matter - the entire justice system itself is flawed in fundamental ways.  Released felons not being able to find work is just one small symptom of that gigantic mess.