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Author Topic: Images of black holes  (Read 15534 times)

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Offline KurzykTopic starter

Images of black holes
« on: April 09, 2011, 06:08:27 PM »

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2011, 06:33:17 PM »
Very interesting - some of the comments made my brain ache, though.  O_o

Offline KurzykTopic starter

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2011, 06:44:47 PM »
Oh yikes I didn't even scroll down to read those. Sorry about that. I usually ignore comments and forgot those pages have them.

I was amazed to read that a black hole could be the size of an atom? That's incredible.

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2011, 06:48:36 PM »
I'm just glad I realized that it was a nutcase (troll, perhaps?) before I responded to more than one.

Offline Sabby

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2011, 01:14:42 AM »
Black holes have frightened me (terrified actually) ever since I was a kid... space in general does. I guess I have a fear of vastness, and emptiness :/ I see a documentary on space, and just something inside me curls up and hides.

Offline Brandon

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2011, 01:23:33 AM »
Very interesting.

Although is it just me or do a few of them look like they were made by some kind of drafting/animating software? They just seem to...clean, for lack of a better word

Offline Raider

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2011, 04:11:53 AM »
Black holes have frightened me (terrified actually) ever since I was a kid... space in general does. I guess I have a fear of vastness, and emptiness :/ I see a documentary on space, and just something inside me curls up and hides.

Be afraid be very afraid

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-newly-merged-black-hole-eagerly.html

Offline Will

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2011, 06:31:28 AM »
Very interesting.

Although is it just me or do a few of them look like they were made by some kind of drafting/animating software? They just seem to...clean, for lack of a better word

Yes, it refers to those as artists' renderings in the captions.

Offline Shjade

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2011, 01:17:59 PM »
I see a documentary on space, and just something inside me curls up and hides.
So you're saying that when you gaze into the abyss the abyss grows also in you?

Offline WhiteyChan

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2011, 02:55:16 PM »
Black holes have frightened me (terrified actually) ever since I was a kid... space in general does. I guess I have a fear of vastness, and emptiness :/ I see a documentary on space, and just something inside me curls up and hides.

To be fair, space isn't empty. Its permeated by a plasma of stray particles at a temperature of about 3K.

*Physics nerd* :P

Offline Will

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2011, 03:43:00 PM »
Well, not empty in an absolute sense.  But the amount of empty space dwarfs the volume of particles.  Though, I guess that's true everywhere in the universe, isn't it?  Even our bodies are mostly empty space.

Offline Sabby

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2011, 03:29:13 AM »
It makes me feel small and completely defenseless. Any kind of open area that feels still, or dead... like, a field won't do it for me. Theres hills and breeze and other things that remind me this is a natural place. But if I'm in an empty stadium or underground car park, I get this paranoia that I'm being watched and if whatever was watching decided to come for me, I'd never be able to outrun it.

Space gives me the same feeling... huge, still, dead, infinitely imposing.

Offline Kristine

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2011, 07:06:47 PM »
I was trying to read the comments but it seems they started that traditional Religion vs Science war there, so lost interest and log off...

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2011, 07:29:08 PM »
*nods*  I actually responded to one saying that time can't exist in space, since time was dependent on the rotation of the Earth or summat.  (OT - Firefox recognizes 'summat' as a word?)  I left a definition of a second in terms of radioactive decay; a la the atomic clock.  Then I realized I was talking to a brick wall.

Offline Shjade

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2011, 12:39:17 PM »
I left a definition of a second in terms of radioactive decay; a la the atomic clock.  Then I realized I was talking to a brick wall.
On the plus side, you could measure exactly how long you were talking to the brick wall.

Offline OmniKitty

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2011, 12:26:37 AM »
The video here shows how they make those pictures look so pretty. =3

I saw this a while back and found it very interesting.

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2011, 06:50:11 PM »
It would be cool if they found out that white holes exist. Just a rift where matter comes spewing out all warped and stretched beyond it's means.

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2011, 07:04:14 PM »
Isn't that the theory of what quasars are?

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2011, 07:07:10 PM »
Well I remember reading somewhere that a black hole would have to consume 10 stars each year to produce the same output as a quasar. So that would be a super massive black hole.

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2011, 07:25:58 PM »
Like - the ones in the middles of galaxies?   ::)

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2011, 08:30:43 PM »
Like the ones scientist believe to be in the middle of galaxies, yes ^^;

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2011, 08:34:06 PM »
I've been fascinated by black holes since 7th grade, when I got a copy of Asimov's 'The Collapsing Universe'.  ^_^>  One book I read compared quasars to a tube of toothpaste with a pinhole in it, being run over by a steamroller - a rather indelible image.

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2011, 08:48:27 PM »
I actually ordered Asimov's book The Foundation just last week it should be coming in the mail tomorrow. I can't wait to read it. It's hardback like all my sci-fi books :P

Offline Noelle

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2011, 05:53:11 PM »
I just finished reading Phil Plait's Death from the Skies, so this thread instantly gave me a massive nerd-rection. It's pretty great at allaying fears about space, I would say. It's a pretty inhospitable universe, but it's anything but dead.

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 01:09:19 AM »
*plays the famous Muse song* Ohhh, you so asked for that~

*scratches head and feels old...*

Offline Lithos

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 06:37:40 AM »
Very interesting.

Although is it just me or do a few of them look like they were made by some kind of drafting/animating software? They just seem to...clean, for lack of a better word

There is ton of editing work that goes on astronomical image processing so always the image you see is going to be somewhat artificial. For one, to get the most sensitivity, big instruments use (if imaging in visual spectrum) monochrome cameras. They shot images through filters that let only light of desired color wavelengths or gas emission lines through. You also have to take many long exposures and stack and match them together, then combine channels to get color images and do noise reduction, deconvultation and ton of other things. Results when imager and the person editing are really good are beauty to behold though. The images in example gallery are known images from real data apart from some artistic renderings that are clearly labeled as such but no, they are never what you would see with naked eye through powerful telescope. Human eye is far too insensitive for that. Even with three to ten meter class telescope if you wanted to waste instruments time by looking at it with naked eye galaxies and nebulae and everything else would be mostly grey smudges with only hint of green and red color at times, nothing like you can "see" with ultra sensitive CCD. One thing is for sure, none of them actually show black holes but rather their effects on surrounding matter.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 06:43:23 AM by Lithos »

Offline Sabby

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2012, 12:48:45 AM »
I read something pretty interesting before, but can't remember the source :( Apparently, black holes can disappear.

As in, not change or dissipate or scatter. Just... poof. Gone. All that matter condenses into a ball and the ball just blinks out in complete defiance of physics. The way it was explained to me is reality is a rubber mat and matter are marballs, with the heavier marballs depressing the rubber more. A marball can get so unfathomably heavy it just plunks right through the mat and leaves reality.


Online Vekseid

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2012, 01:08:26 AM »
No.

It's called Hawking Radiation. The mass-energy gets returned to the Universe according to the hypothesis.

Offline Sabby

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2012, 01:12:37 AM »
Wouldn't that much energy being moved be like a supernova? o.o

Online Vekseid

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2012, 01:25:10 AM »
No, it's just blackbody radiation like any star, except for anything of significant mass (more than a thousandth or so of the Moon) it's pretty much just regular black.

Some sci-fi ideas involve using black holes to generate power in this fashion - they spit out over half of what they eat as light as is (which is better than antimatter - most matter-antimatter reaction energy is ghosted as neutrinos) - a small black hole undergoing hawking radiation is a nearly perfect (and actually surprisingly safe) matter->energy converter.

Offline Sabby

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2012, 01:30:03 AM »
Oh, I'm beginning to see... I did a quick Google hoping to find where I'd read this. We haven't had this Hawking Radiation concept long have we? o.o That would explain why we'd have thought it just poofs.

Offline Lithos

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2012, 01:30:28 AM »
Also black holes in themselves are nothing special in their effect of surrounding matter in some ways. Suppose our sun got replaced with similar mass black hole in an instant. You would not see instant accretion discs it would not start sucking everything from surrounding any more greedily than our sun does, in fact you would notice nothing except the obvious fact that sun disappeared and the resulting cold and lack of energy would do us all in. Planets would happily continue on same orbits they are now, comets would move along just as they did before so would asteroids. It would be exactly as if sun was there, just no solar wind and obviously no sunlight nor suns energy output.

Offline Sabby

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2012, 01:31:53 AM »
Yeah, I'd read that one as well. Doesn't stop them being scawweh D=

http://youtu.be/eEUuvb7gVFo?t=1h2m17s

For those who would like some video of Black Holes :3
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 01:47:02 AM by Sabby »

Offline Braioch

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2012, 07:30:59 AM »
Nifty ;D

But upon reading 'da EaRt iz 6000 yaers old' I had to give up on the comments section >,<

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2012, 07:39:13 AM »
I've been following some YouTube videos on String Theory over the past few weeks, and I believe it was Stanford University's 'Topics in String Theory' by Leonard Susskind that goes into the evaporation of black holes in some detail* (as well as event horizons and measuring the temperature at the event horizon).  Even if you don't get the complicated physics of it, he is phenomenally easy to listen to (looks and sounds a little bit like George Carlin, only with a family-friendly vocabulary), and I believe the class itself was one of those 'Continuing Education' things that people can attend without grading, so he's not talking to physicists, or even physics majors, necessarily.  (There's a guy in the back who's got a voice like my father's, age-wise.)

Offline Lithos

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2012, 10:01:46 AM »
For getting good idea of basics of physics I very much recommend Feynmans character of physical law lecture series. It might be old but it is still as current as ever and goes through things concisely starting from newtonian physics and then going further making it all very easy to understand.

http://youtu.be/j3mhkYbznBk


Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2012, 10:05:25 AM »
For getting good idea of basics of physics I very much recommend Feynmans character of physical law lecture series. It might be old but it is still as current as ever and goes through things concisely starting from newtonian physics and then going further making it all very easy to understand.

http://youtu.be/j3mhkYbznBk

*bookmarks*  I've liked everything I've read about Feynmann.  I think he's on my list of 'if you could talk with anyone, living or dead...' candidates.

Offline Hades

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Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2013, 10:15:47 AM »
Ooh, space thread *cue nerd-gasm here*

I've always been facinated with space.  Back when the Discovery Channel or History Channel would actually have educational programs instead of whatever category the drivel they air these days count as, any time I saw a space-related show I knew my next hour or so was booked up.   I used to get the Science Channel, but we switched from DirecTV to cable and they don't carry it.  Damnable Philistines.

I have to speak up for one name I haven't seen on this thread yet.   Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson.  Director of the Hayden Plantarium of the American Museum of Natural History, and smiter of Pluto's planetary status.   He's passionate about space and humanity's place in, he's articulate and funny at the same time, and can easily be found on YouTube and elsewhere.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2013, 10:02:40 PM »
This has to be one of the most intriguing natural science articles I've seen in a daily paper in a long time:

The Earth was hit by a Black Holes generated Gamma ray burst in the days of Charlemagne

"According to a new study, black hole cosmic radiation blasted into the Earth back in the 8th century.

Japanese astrophysicist Fusa Miyake discovered last year clues for the strange event located in the rings of ancient cedar trees that dated back to either 774 or 775 AD.

Researchers teamed together to determine what had caused the surge in carbon-14 in the rings and found no evidence of a supernova, as they had expected. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle references the appearance of a “red crucifix” seen in the skies after sunset, but that took place in 776 AD, which was too late for when the tree rings show the event took place.

Scientists were also able to rule out a CME burst from the Sun, during which solar flares shoot out cosmic rays, sometimes towards Earth. They wrote in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, instead, black holes may be the culprit behind the carbon-14 isotope surge in the rings. These isotopes are created when intense radiation hits the atoms in the upper atmosphere, which suggests a blast of energy had once hit Earth.

German-based scientists Valeri Hambaryan and Ralph Neuhauser say two black holes collided and then merged (---) (These two researchers) said the event could only have taken place at least 3,000 light years away from here, otherwise the planet would have been fried."

So pleased we were not closer.  :-) (and by the way, that last line also hints how rare an event it would be. AFAIK, Earth has not been completely grilled any time in the last few hundred million years...)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 10:17:13 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2013, 11:17:45 PM »
I always wondered how long it would take for a micro black hole say the mass the Earth around the size of a dime to eat the Sun and what the affects would be such as energy bursts which can happen.

Online Vekseid

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2013, 07:25:24 PM »
Would really depend on where you put it.

If you dropped it in the side, there's a distinct possibility it would self-eject after tearing apart a good chunk of the Sun's mass, for example.

Offline MultiCharacterRoleplay

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2013, 06:24:15 PM »
Very interesting - some of the comments made my brain ache, though.  O_o
Yah I just read some of them as well and I was like no just no T.T

Offline MultiCharacterRoleplay

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2013, 06:25:10 PM »
MY question is though. How do they know that they're black holes?

Online Vekseid

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2013, 06:46:37 PM »
Technically, we don't. It's mostly a function of "We know of nothing else that fits this much mass in so small a volume." And many predicted effects are also seen, such as electron annihilations (which release very predictable and precise energy signatures) getting significantly redshifted, etc.

Offline Caden

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2013, 11:19:29 PM »
Aww, when I read the title of the thread I though I was going to see some pictures of the lower half of Shjade's avatar. :(

I don't remember the specifics, but I remember hearing a presentation by Hawking about the black holes dumping matter into other universes and that, theoretically, you might eventually reach a universe with no black holes that would continue to be filled and, eventually, contain the matter of all universes.

Something like that.

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2013, 12:10:12 AM »
Except that the idea that there is 'another side' to a black hole has long been regarded as pure fiction.  Look up some of Dr. Leonard Susskind's lectures on YouTube - he goes into the physics of black holes both in his series on General Relativity, and also in his Topics in String Theory.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2013, 08:54:03 AM »
I figure they must be important since every galaxy seems to have on in the center, makes you wonder what is in the center of the Universe is there a super duper massive black hole?  ???

Online Vekseid

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2013, 10:28:09 AM »
Our universe has no center as such, though it does resemble a time-reversed black hole in some respects.

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2013, 11:48:46 AM »
If you consider isotropy and homogeneity, and the way in which the universe is expanding, with all things not bound by gravity accelerating away from each other, you could say that all points are equally 'central'.

Offline Sabby

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2013, 11:55:37 AM »
Isn't the universe in a cone shape though?

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2013, 12:00:36 PM »
You're thinking of the 'light cone' in diagrams of space-time.  That has to do with what you are capable of observing, and doesn't translate to a physical cone at all.

Online Vekseid

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2013, 01:01:59 PM »
Isn't the universe in a cone shape though?

The Universe is flat to measurement error.

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2013, 01:24:42 PM »
The Universe is flat to measurement error.

To expand on this, if you were to use laser sighting to mark out a ginormous triangle in space, and measured the angles, you would get so close to 180 degrees that you couldn't tell the difference.

If the universe was curved like sphere or saddle-shape, such that the shortest distance between two points was not a straight line (think of airplane routes from the US to Russia), then the angles would be significantly different, like the triangle formed by the equator, the Prime Meridian, and any other line of longitude.

Offline bennyg4444

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Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2013, 05:39:56 PM »
To expand on this, if you were to use laser sighting to mark out a ginormous triangle in space, and measured the angles, you would get so close to 180 degrees that you couldn't tell the difference.

If the universe was curved like sphere or saddle-shape, such that the shortest distance between two points was not a straight line (think of airplane routes from the US to Russia), then the angles would be significantly different, like the triangle formed by the equator, the Prime Meridian, and any other line of longitude.

Ah, the sound of non-euclidian geometry. It makes my brain confused and enraged at the same time. Besides, the point of those measurements is to try and put "imperceptible" dimensions into "understandable" terms. It all goes back to the Flatland thought experiment.

Offline Oniya

Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2013, 05:52:18 PM »
Spherical geometry (the airplane example I used) is probably the easiest of the non-Euclideans to understand, simply because it's got a physical analogue, both for the triangle definition and for making it expand (blowing up a balloon - no point on the surface is the 'center', and in fact, to any observer embedded in the surface of the balloon, they are the center of expansion).

If Flatland is more your cup of tea than cosmology lectures, there's a guy named Rudy Rucker who has a fabulous book called 'The Fourth Dimension' - fairly sure there's not an equation in the book, and it's got illustrations that remind me of James Thurber.

Offline bennyg4444

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Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2013, 06:28:00 PM »
I appreciate cosmology just as much the the mathematical laws that concern cosmological matters. The fact of the matter is that it's basically the same conversation if you begin talking about the properties of celestial bodies, and their subsequent positioning in the universe. I mean, look at the gravitation effect of a black hole on light. There's no way you can even bring up a black hole without talking about that property because it's where it gets its name.

Offline bennyg4444

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Re: Images of black holes
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2013, 06:30:09 PM »
Oh, and thank you for the book suggestion, it does sound up my alley. I'll put it on my list after A Brief History of Time. :P