Questions about fantasy genre

Started by Beorning, May 24, 2019, 01:50:58 PM

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Beorning

There are some questions related to the specifics of the fantasy genre that are currently bugging me... I'm wondering if you guys could pipe in and give me some of your thoughts?

1. What exactly is the difference between fantasy and fairy tales / fables? I know there has to be one, but I can't put my finger on it. Personally, I think that The Hobbit (the book), as well as movies such as The Neverending Story, Legend and Willow are fairy tales, not fantasy (granted, Willow might be a borderline example). But I've seen all of them classified as fantasy fiction...

2. Something more specific: do you guys think that fantasy fiction should have people dressed in realistic historical(esque) clothing, or could the clothes be depicted as being as something completely made-up? I'm asking, as when watching Game of Thrones, I was kind of put off by some of the drab, realistic medieval clothes some characters were wearing. On the other hand, I was also uncertain about some of the clothes worn by Daenerys and Cersei. Cersei had a dress with metal pauldrons and Dany's dresses in the final two seasons were almost... futuristic in cut? Sansa's clothes in this season didn't seem like anything out of history, either.

3. Overall, do you expect realism in fantasy fiction, or are you in favour of unusually-designed castled, gigantic thrones of gold etc.?

Just wondering what you guys think?

Capone

Goodness but you people get awfully specific.

1. I think the line between fairy tale and fiction is mostly one of the time it was told/put together. According to this page, the word "fiction" was largely in circulation starting with the late-1500's and mostly described plays with the term being used for novels and short-stories in the 19th Century. It's hardly the most academic of sources, but the general idea is that folk tales, myths, fairy tales, and so on are typically a part of that culture. The idea of "fantasy fiction" would therefore be recent, and given that fairy tales, mythology, and folk lore would inspire those modern works, it sort of falls into one big broad genre.

The way I see it, fantasy simply takes elements of the real world and applies magic or the supernatural to it. In most instances fantasy is assumed to be roughly European medieval, but then you have urban fantasy, which typically involves vampires or magic in the modern day. There's also bound to be a completely different flavor of fantasy once you step into other cultures with their own folklore. See Japanese settings that involve Yokai and other beasts. Princess Mononoke is fantasy, no?

Once you start getting specific with your definitions you begin running into trouble.The biggest reason Fantasy has developed a certain image/attachment is because a whole bunch of Lord of the Rings imitations and knock-offs burst onto the fiction scene in the 70's, one of the most prominent being Sword of Shanara, that would basically take Tolkien's Middle-Earth and use that to codify all the tropes and expectations of the fantasy genre. So whereas Tolkien himself was pulling from all kinds of myth, folklore, and fairy tales himself, these guys were just copying him without doing the research themselves.

For other interpretations of fantasy that draw from similar sources as Tolkien but with different execution, see Pan's Labyrinth or Guillermo Del Toro's interpretation of Hellboy. Not medieval, but still fantasy (though Hellboy throws some pulp sci-fi into the mix as well, but you could argue that Asimov's quote about science eventually "becoming" magic or whatnot could apply here).

To me, it's best to keep things broad and simple, and therefore "Fantasy" is best viewed as the world or an alternate world where magic and the supernatural have some tangible presence.

2. I'm not falling into that trap again.

3. I want consistency. Just because there are dragons doesn't mean your wizard can toss a Dragon Ball Z level fireball when prior rules established such things were impossible. Tolkien was always consistent that magic in Middle-Earth was present, but subtle in its own way. It never dominates the narrative. I would say Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy is another excellent example of subtle magic. When it happens, it's not the most ground-breaking, but because it's so uncommon and subtle it feels significant.

But consistency is also just good story-telling, period. You want it in settings without magic, you want it in sci-fi, you want it in everything. After that, it's just a matter of personal taste and preference rather than what a genre should or should not be.

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Azuresun

Quote from: Beorning on May 24, 2019, 01:50:58 PM
There are some questions related to the specifics of the fantasy genre that are currently bugging me... I'm wondering if you guys could pipe in and give me some of your thoughts?

1. What exactly is the difference between fantasy and fairy tales / fables? I know there has to be one, but I can't put my finger on it. Personally, I think that The Hobbit (the book), as well as movies such as The Neverending Story, Legend and Willow are fairy tales, not fantasy (granted, Willow might be a borderline example). But I've seen all of them classified as fantasy fiction...

If I did think of a definition, I'd probably then think of a dozen or so works that are an exception to that rule. I don't think pinning down works to a single genre is especially necessary or helpful (especially if it's done in a spirit of "the stuff I like is more mature")


Quote2. Something more specific: do you guys think that fantasy fiction should have people dressed in realistic historical(esque) clothing, or could the clothes be depicted as being as something completely made-up?

3. Overall, do you expect realism in fantasy fiction, or are you in favour of unusually-designed castled, gigantic thrones of gold etc.?


It depends. Okay, that's not the most helpful answer. First, what mood is the author going for, and second, what is the focus of the work? For some examples--

Game of Thrones starts off as a quite gritty and down-to-earth story, where the focus is human nature and the brutalities of medieval politics and warfare, with magic being almost unknown. It works best for those themes if the events of the story feel quite grounded and recognisable. As such, the clothing hews quite close to historical clothing, and exotic sights that would distract from those core themes are given sparingly. When something overtly magical does appear, it's a Big Deal.

One Piece is a story about the thrill of discovering and exploring a wildly varied and exotic world, with strong comedic overtones. Clothing choices (and character designs) there are all over the place and often wildly exaggerated, and seeing amazing new sights is part of the draw both for the audience and the characters.


For both of those series, the aesthetics are appropriate for the story that each one is trying to tell, and the mood it wants to evoke.

Oniya

Isn't that Clarke and not Asimov?  Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.  (Also the corollary:  Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology, a la Tolkein's palantir.
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#5
Quote from: Beorning on May 24, 2019, 01:50:58 PM
1. What exactly is the difference between fantasy and fairy tales / fables? I know there has to be one, but I can't put my finger on it. Personally, I think that The Hobbit (the book), as well as movies such as The Neverending Story, Legend and Willow are fairy tales, not fantasy (granted, Willow might be a borderline example). But I've seen all of them classified as fantasy fiction...

All fairy tales can fall under fantasy fiction, but perhaps not all fantasy can be classed as fairy tales. Boxing things very tightly into a rigidly-defined genre is a rather frustrating exercise because stories are just as varied as life. You can always find exceptions to the taxonomical classification of living things, e.g. there's a microscopic single-celled creature called Euglena that can do photosynthesis but it moves around with cillia and can eat things too. Is it a plant or is it an animal? In the same way, there are always stories that will defy any tight rules of classification, such as C.J. Cherryh's Morgaine stories, which look like fantasy but there is actual high technology underneath.

Quote from: Beorning on May 24, 2019, 01:50:58 PM
2. Something more specific: do you guys think that fantasy fiction should have people dressed in realistic historical(esque) clothing, or could the clothes be depicted as being as something completely made-up? I'm asking, as when watching Game of Thrones, I was kind of put off by some of the drab, realistic medieval clothes some characters were wearing. On the other hand, I was also uncertain about some of the clothes worn by Daenerys and Cersei. Cersei had a dress with metal pauldrons and Dany's dresses in the final two seasons were almost... futuristic in cut? Sansa's clothes in this season didn't seem like anything out of history, either.

No. Any pretence to historical accuracy is completely unnecessary unless the story is supposed to be a historical fantasy that deals with a specific real-world era. If you're working with a completely made-up world like in Game of Thrones, by all means use historical clothing as a model but nothing really restricts you to it.

Quote from: Beorning on May 24, 2019, 01:50:58 PM
3. Overall, do you expect realism in fantasy fiction, or are you in favour of unusually-designed castled, gigantic thrones of gold etc.?

I don't really care. What I am in favour of is a good story. If any of those "unrealistic" elements help the author to create a good story, then by all means. They just have to have a point, e.g. a gigantic throne of gold might be useful to the story because it helps to establish how the tyrannical king who had it made has such a huge ego and made such a thing to show off his wealth and majesty.
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Capone

Quote from: Oniya on May 25, 2019, 09:12:31 PM
Isn't that Clarke and not Asimov?  Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.  (Also the corollary:  Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology, a la Tolkein's palantir.

Could be. I didn't bother to Google it even though it's just a tab away.

Marumor

1.) Fables and Fairytales are just a subgenre to Fantasy, to put simply. Long answer is long, and probably varies person-to-person.

2-3.) This is all up to the people playing together. :) I personally prefer to lean towards realism, but I'll play both if the pitch is good enough.