War: Russia vs. Ukraine?

[Beorning]

You know absolutely fuck all about this and your ignorance on this topic is insulting. I have had the absolute honour of being raised by a man who fought in that battle in a war that wasn't his' and that he never wanted a part in and the only way he kept himself alive to go home to his wife was the death or glory mentality you discard in your post. Surrender and get arrested and then what? Hope for mercy or clemency? In a war? Have you missed that bit where that young Russian soldier gets sentenced to life in prison in Ukraine for following orders and murdering a civilian? Or conveniently forgot about it? The only way out of a draft in a war is to fight your way through it.

Okay, I think you're really missing some points here.

First of all: your family member was fighting on the defending side against an invader known for brutality. There was no option of surrendering - also, by fighting the Germans, your family member was protecting his loved ones (because everybody knew what German occupation would be like). This is not a factor here: the Russians are *invading* and, by engaging in combat, they don't protect anyone. On the contrary, they risk being killed. In such a situation, it's really easier to surrender, run away or half-ass your way through the war. Yes, you risk the reprisal from your superiors, but it beats the possibility of being shot dead.

Also, regarding surrendering: as mentioned, Germans weren't known for being merciful toward the Russians who surrendered. Meanwhile, Ukrainians are actively inviting the Russians to surrender - they even set up a helpline for that, for crying out loud. This is completely opposite of German's approach... and, in fact, I've seen it mentioned that German abuse of the population of the captured USSR territories as one of the reasons they lost. Because nobody in USSR chose to defect and fight on their side.

And yes, Ukrainians are putting Russians suspected of war crimes on trials. But they aren't doing that to *every* Russian soldier they capture or who surrenders. So, again - Russian soldiers who don't want to fight *have* a way out.

Seriously, if you think that, in these circumstances, Russian soldiers are as motivated to fight as did your ancestors in Stalingrad, then you're really misunderstanding how human motivations work.

Let's ignore the fact that you called the merchant of death useless and put more value in a drug smuggling basketball player.

Could we please stop dissing Griner as a "drug smuggler"? You make it seem like she's a career criminal. She was guilty on the basis of owning some personal cigarette liquid that was illegal in Russia! I understand that you can find the trade uneven, but could you refrain from attacking that poor woman, please?

Also, I'm continuously surprised by your total hate-on for Biden. And, in this case, you being more outraged at Biden for making the trade than at Russian authorities that clearly put Griner to prison for political reasons? And who obviously demanded Bout being released in exchange for Griner?

[Oniya]

He still had to make the final yes or no decision. Is it nit-picky? I guess, but he still played a part in the process.

His choice was 'Griner or no one.'

What would you have done?

[persephone325]

His choice was 'Griner or no one.'

What would you have done?

Personally, no one. But that's because my dad is a Marine and I've grown up with that mentality of "leave no man behind". So I will admit that I have a biased opinion on the matter.

[Dashenka]

Also, I'm continuously surprised by your total hate-on for Biden. And, in this case, you being more outraged at Biden for making the trade than at Russian authorities that clearly put Griner to prison for political reasons? And who obviously demanded Bout being released in exchange for Griner?

off topic political rant

I don't hate the man. I just dislike him because he has somehow made people believe he is better than Trump. When he really just isn't. Not yet at least. He's a bit more sane, just, but that's about it. The country is still divided, the economy is tanked and it's all going to shits. Not saying Trump would have done better but it's hard to see how he could have done worse. Twenty billion dollars to Ukraine when millions of Americans are living in poverty. He's basically running Trump's MAGA campaign for Trump already. His failure means we'll end up with four more years of Trump and when he somehow manages to do that, a lot more people will hate Biden for that reason alone.

Why is it clear they (Russia) put her (Griner) to prison for political reasons and why is it obvious they (Russia) demanded Bout being released. He's useless and a nobody, according to people. Why would Russia demand his release?


She 'forgot' she had drugs on her when she got into Russia. In Russia, you go to prison for smuggling drugs, which 'forgetting' you have it qualifies under by Russian logic. And mine.

I also know nothing about American politics but I do know enough that in this time and age getting a black, lesbian woman out of a Russian prison is very convenient while also claiming the Russians didn't want to trade that other guy, forgot his name. The white, middle aged former military guy. Biden could have said... nah, this is a shitty deal, we want more. Did he make the effort? Maybe, maybe not but in the end the deal is a very bad one. The fact that Biden and his cronies celebrate it as a major victory is a bit aggrevating because saying Bout will never trade weapons again is a bit premature at best. Even if he doesn't his knowledge is of more value to Russia in the Ukraine war than Griner is. For the Russians she is a nobody. So why would her being sent to prison be political? When Russia wants to make a political statement, they send an agent to London to poison somebody of meaning, not arrest a nobody.

[Al Terego]

Personally, no one. But that's because my dad is a Marine and I've grown up with that mentality of "leave no man behind". So I will admit that I have a biased opinion on the matter.

And how exactly would that mentality be served by leaving another (wo)man behind?

[Vekseid]

This all should get split off as it doesn't really pertain to Russia. Anyway.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-lives-matter-activists-accuse-executive-stealing-10-million-dono-rcna46481
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-09-02/black-lives-matter-leader-accused-of-stealing-10-million-from-organization
https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/04/us/black-lives-matter-executive-lawsuit/index.html

I mean, this was all over the news for like a month. At least where I live. It's not a conspiracy. Yeah, it doesn't make the whole movement a scam, but if they ever want to build up their credibility again they're fighting a really hard uphill battle.

You cite one leader as being accused of stealing ten million from activists.

One person isn't a movement. There are grifters around every major movement.

To add to this, I would like to hear about anything that doesn't involve Trump. He's just low-hanging fruit at this point. lol

Well at least I don't need to litigate his cons. The "Build the Wall" fundraiser was funny.

Can I pick on Gingrich instead?

Still, Trump-associated fraud goes far beyond just Trump. His election denial has spawned a lot of imitators.

Rick Scott oversaw one of the largest medicare frauds in history. So naturally Republicans put him in charge of their finances. What could possibly go wrong?

SBF make secret donations to Republicans. I mention this because I saw him claimed here as a Democratic donor. Apparently quite the opposite.

"Don't Say Gay" author indicted on money laundering and wire fraud charges.

On a more general level, the proliferation of fake COVID-19 cures promulgated by the likes of Jones and other conservative voices.

Who buys 'Ben Carson brain pills'

You wonder what drives all those gold advertisements on conservative media?

While all the Republicans getting their PPP loans forgiven and voting against transparency may not directly be fraud... I certainly consider it unethical.

This all has been going on for awhile. Here is an article on Salon that goes over a number of other scams fleecing conservatives.

I could go down a similar route with megachurches, as they are also generally conservative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcPeBAYYuhc

[Vekseid]

Let's ignore the fact that you called the merchant of death useless and put more value in a drug smuggling basketball player. That is fine.

She 'smuggled' less than a gram. Whatever you think we don't really take that very seriously over here.

And yes, he's useless. He sources his weapons from Russia. How is he going to help Russia, at all?

I believe said basketball player is completely useless in the grand scheme of things and I know an arms dealer is a HUGE asset to Putin.

She is not a difference maker in the grand scheme of things.

This guy has spent the past fifteen years isolated and in prison. He has no experience with sourcing weapons outside of Russia. He is part of the reason the Russian supply situation is so fucked I can purchase Russian supplies made this year that would otherwise be going to Ukraine.

In any case, whatever the result, it is quite clear this was not done for voter support.

[persephone325]

And how exactly would that mentality be served by leaving another (wo)man behind?

Get everyone out, or get no one.

"I don't think you negotiate with terrorists, it's a slippery slope, it doesn't end well," said Robert Zachariasiewicz, a former U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration agent who helped lead the team that arrested Bout. (https://www.reuters.com/world/brittney-griners-return-reignites-debate-about-prisoner-swaps-2022-12-09/)

I agree with his stance.

You cite one leader as being accused of stealing ten million from activists.

And sometimes that's all it takes to destroy a movement's (or a business') credibility. One bad apple spoils the bunch and all that.

But thank you. I wasn't derailing the thread, just talking about BLM since it was brought up earlier, and just commented briefly on it in passing.

[Dashenka]

She 'smuggled' less than a gram. Whatever you think we don't really take that very seriously over here.

But she wasn't 'over here'. She was 'over there' and over there, they do take it seriously. So I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

But as I said, let's agree to disagree. This discussion is not going anywhere and has very little to do with the topic.



To steer my part back on topic, I just want to repeat this. Because I very much agree with it:

Ukraine's army probably goes into winter better equipped than Russia's, but Russia now has more men courtesy of its mobilisation, and it continues to strike at Ukraine's - and Europe's - energy infrastructure, in the first case via missiles, in the second via gas shortages. It's very cold even here in London today - only just above freezing during the day and below it by night. A few more weeks of that and who knows what the pressure will be to change the situation? That's the General Winter Putin is relying on; nothing to do with the poor slobs huddled on the front lines.

[persephone325]

But thank you. I wasn't derailing the thread, just talking about BLM since it was brought up earlier, and just commented briefly on it in passing.

Meant to say "trying to". I guess that's what happens with the fingers type faster than the thoughts in the brain.

[Al Terego]

Get everyone out, or get no one.

I am very happy that the people making decisions on the international level do not subscribe to this kind of absolutism.

But since we're playing hypotheticals, please suggest how would you "get everyone out" or, failing that, what good would the "get no one" alternative do.

Please keep in mind that if Putin wanted Viktor Bout that much, he could have asked his good friend Donald for his release.
After all, being a renowned humanitarian, he was deeply averse to keeping people in prison.

And speaking of the close ties between those two, they had 2 years to come to a mutually acceptable agreement on Paul Whelan's release, but apparently that too wasn't a priority.

[Sara Nilsson]

To be fair on Trump, he was busy getting lots of talibans out of prisons. Between that, tweeting and being incompetent he was probably busy.

[Al Terego]

Just to put this here:

“There is no greater success than for a wrongful detainee to be freed and for them to go home,” Mr. Whelan’s brother David wrote in an email to The New York Times. “The Biden administration made the right decision to bring Ms. Griner home, and to make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.”
-- https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/08/world/europe/paul-whelan-russia-prison-griner.html

[persephone325]

I am very happy that the people making decisions on the international level do not subscribe to this kind of absolutism.

But since we're playing hypotheticals, please suggest how would you "get everyone out" or, failing that, what good would the "get no one" alternative do.

That's fine and that's your opinion on the matter.

I have stated my opinion. I'm not arguing that the decision was wrong or right. Ultimately, it doesn't affect me as I'm not directly involved. It just feels to me like they could have fought harder. But we'll never know what went on behind the scenes. But this is also the administration that gave us this, as pointed out in another thread: https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/17/politics/saudi-crown-prince-immunity-state-department-jamal-khashoggi/index.html - which I also feel could have been fought harder to prevent. And, again, we'll never know what went on behind the scenes there either.

I'm not playing hypotheticals and I shouldn't have to justify my opinion on the matter. Just as I'm not asking you to justify your opinion. You stated yours, and I have accepted it. Please show me the same courtesy.

[Hades]

Beau (of the fifth column) has a video up about this that I would recommend for anyone wanting more context with the prisoner exchange. 

Back to the topic at hand, winter will likely have a greater impact on the Russian forces than the Ukrainians, because Ukraine is defending on it's own territory and we've seen how....underwhelming let's call it, Russia's logistical corps have been since the war began.  The missile strikes against Ukraine's energy grid will make defense a bit more complicated, but as the air defense systems are improved and expanded that will significantly reduce the amount of missiles and drones that successfully strike their targets. 

[Laughing Hyena]

It was a very disproportionate sentence for what was a prescription but I do concede that she should have never brought it. And an athlete was going to be an easy target. Especially in a country that was looking for excuses to detain any American. Unfortunately the fact is no one but yourself will look out for yourself.

All the same I'm glad she is back on American soil.

[Vekseid]

And sometimes that's all it takes to destroy a movement's (or a business') credibility. One bad apple spoils the bunch and all that.

But thank you. I wasn't derailing the thread, just talking about BLM since it was brought up earlier, and just commented briefly on it in passing.

No, you bore false witness. Tarring an entire movement with the actions of one person was your singular choice.

The only person responsible for that is you. It certainly isn't on the people that got swindled, many of whom no doubt still identify with BLM.

Lies like these have destroyed innocent lives, and ruined the work of good people.

One way or another civilization will not continue permitting wild allegations like this.

We need to do better than to make, believe, and spread statements like yours.

[Dashenka]

"People here don't understand how much danger we're in. Not from the opposing side. But from our own side."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63916810

Telling article about a Russian soldier who was sent to fight in the war.





Apparently Ukraine has dealt another blow to Russia as reports go that they have struck the Wagner group HQ in Kadiivka.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-regional-official-says-strike-hits-wagner-group-headquarters-2022-12-11/

[Beorning]

Speaking of Russian soldiers, here's a captive Russian soldier telling the Ukrainians that he's in Ukraine to fight the Poles. Who, apparently, want to steal Ukrainian land:

https://twitter.com/dimailnitsky/status/1602042529603616769


The amount of lies told by the Russian government to its people is staggering...

[Tmii3]

This entire thing about Britney Griner and the trade for her, shows just how disingenuous people are being about this whole thing. Britney brought a vape pen into Russia, which while stupid yes, is not drug smuggling. Bout sentence was nearly over, and was once wanted in Russia for selling weapons to Chechen Rebals, and Paul Whelan is a disgraced marine who was caught with classified information on his person when he was arrested.

For all the people who said that the West and Russia needed to discuss this war and how it ends, this shows that the two sides are willing to talk. Something that has not happened much and can even show that the two sides are at least willing to talk. The whole coverage of this has been shameful, from the casual racism and transphobia. To the lack of knowledge of foreign policy and the history of the war in Ukraine.

But that would require people to do a bare minimum of research and I should know better than ask that of people.

[Azuresun]

1. It's not a myth. Winter is a blessing and a curse to both Ukraine and Russia. Not a myth.
2. You know absolutely fuck all about this and your ignorance on this topic is insulting. I have had the absolute honour of being raised by a man who fought in that battle in a war that wasn't his' and that he never wanted a part in and the only way he kept himself alive to go home to his wife was the death or glory mentality you discard in your post. Surrender and get arrested and then what? Hope for mercy or clemency? In a war?

I really don't care if you find me insulting. You are colluding in the same Russian mythmaking that I see every day from the Botski Brigade, and you got called out on it with an itemised list of why Russia does not "have winter on their side". You addressed none of it, instead spinning off on a wild tangent about someone who was there, as if that's got anything to do with war now.

The defence of Stalingrad is only relevant in that the highly motivated, backs-to-the-wall army fighting for their homeland against an invading army of crazed savages who destroy everything they touch and view their enemy as subhuman, and who fight by trying to break the will of civilians....is now Ukraine. Russia has thoroughly turned into the Nazis that invaded their own home in the 1940's, and their attempts to justify that by invoking WW2 myths (even down to framing the war of genocide as "denazifying") is a grotesque insult to the generation who died then.

[Laughing Hyena]

From ABC news as the source.

Ukraine suffers another Russian Missile Strike. Russia launched 69 missiles at Ukraine. 54 missiles were struck down but around 10 hit residential and infrastructure targets. Toll of wounded is currently at seven at the time of the document being on site, three hours ago.

[Vekseid]

Zelensky made an end-of-the-year address.

[gaggedLouise]

Sweden's controversial NATO bid looks practically dead (or at least on ice for a long time ahead) after a Kurdish group in Sweden hung up a dummy effigy of president Erdogan by its feet just outside Stockholm City Hall - a plain allusion to the famous photo of the end of Mussolini and his mistress Clara Petacci hanged from a railing in 1945. Predictably, Erdogan flew into a rage, protested and cancelled all further meetings to try to discuss what he wants Sweden (and Finland) to do to help him fight what he sees as Kurdish terrorists based in Sweden - and which most people in Sweden would see as dissidents or peaceful Kurdish activists.

The negotiations between Sweden, Finland and Turkey had already been strained before - Turkey is the last NATO country, except Hungary, not to have ratified the two Nordic stated joining NATO, with Turkey stacking up sweeping demands for extraditions of dozens of Kurdo-Swedes to face trials in Ankara, something that had been nixed by the Swedish Supreme Court - and a few days before this latest incident, Swedish PM Ulf Kristersson finally acknowledged that there was a potentially real conflict of goals here, declaring that Sweden would not be cowed into following ever more excessive Turkish demands that "you've got to give us this and that or we won't let you in". Hanging up an effigy of a foreign head of state in public is not a crime over here, and certainly not an instance of terrorist activity: what's more, only days after it had happened, the Turkish government raised its number of people it wanted extradited to 130!    The standoff looks completely locked and it doesn't seem like Turkey has any intention of moving.

A Danish politician who ran in last year's Swedish election (instead of at home) and who specializes in burning copies of the Quran in public as a demonstration - often provoking unrest with this- has now suggested he might make a new visit to Sweden and repeat the stunt, which will anger Erdogan even more....

Finland, so far, is sticking with the pledge that "it's both of us joining NATO or none of us", so the trouble with Sweden's bid is blocking them too.

[Al Terego]

Turkey in NATO is beginning to look a lot like Russia as a permanent member of the UN Security Council.