Trump

[Lustful Bride]

What you have named are problems inside the US already and other problems that care coming into the US. Mixing the two is and can be a point of confusion.

Fine I will grant you that one.

The wall isn't the one beat all fix, but will slow down or even partially stop the flow of trouble that comes across our borders. Climbing the metal barrier that is being erected now, is just about impossible, but that is what the border patrol is there for, to catch people trying to do that. As for the water, that's what the coast guard is for.

Not it wont, they will just tunnel under it or bribe the guards, or just climb over it like some do now. Itl just be a waste and something to mock the US for for centuries to come.

Let me ask you this, if you had flood waters coming into your house through an open door, would you close that door and erect a barrier of sand bags to help stop the water that is coming into your house? Or would you just open a window, grab a bucket and start bailing water out the window in hopes of stopping or getting ahead of the water? Common scene tells me what most people would do, even if the barrier and closed door doesn't stop the water completely, it will lessen the flow greatly compared to an open door. Leaving you some time to put other plans into place that would stop and fix the problems.

People and water are not the same. A flood only destroys everything in its path. The people coming to the US are coming for work and for protections, benefits, and freedoms they might not otherwise have. Are some of them criminals? Yes, it would be ignorant to think that they are all poor little angels down on their luck. But for the most part its for work and honestly I think a much better solution than a wall would be to pull something similar to the old Ellis Island, thing. Just set up a facility for one month that lets people with cleared non criminal backgrounds get a fast tracked immigration and act more like a pressure valve.
 

Where are you getting your information on that? Most homes aren't on the borders, property is and the little bit of  land that the government would need to put up the metal slatted wall that is going up now is kinda like the sidewalk that runs across the front of your property between you and the street. It's government domain you know, so how would it be any different than that? They aren't stealing anything.

Honestly its scattered articles that keep piling up, individual stories telling the same thing. I could get it but if I spend the time to go do it I will lose my focus. I might do it later though.

As far as animal extinction goes, if the animal was already in jeopardy then moving and relocating said creature should be done. It isn't like they wouldn't know where they were, they track and watch endangered animals to better protect them, so moving them won't kill them but help them.

Too bad that's what they wont do. Itl be putting the wall down in their migration path and wishing them the best of luck with extinction.

On the contrary, it will help the real issues, more so than the way you are proposing it be done. You suggest we turn all that "wasted"money to other places, yet we would have to waste even more money on still trying to stop all the bad coming across the borders. Like you said, there are dead zones that won't have to be guarded by our patrols if there is a barrier erected there. If they didn't want to cross it to begin with, then placing a wall there would only give them that much more of a reason to not cross when the border patrols tighten down the places that they do cross in.

If there are no guards there they will climb the wall even more. Its impossible to patrol all of it and even electronic patrols have limits.

The wall height and everything is already determined and is being erected and used right now in hot spots. It comes already put together and ready to go into the ground. So all the , when, what, how and what will it look like are already answered and being used.  Once something like that is already up and in place, you free up the man power that it takes to hold the border and can use it and the now freed up people and resources in other places that are having problems.

Also you mentioned how much money it would take to maintain it and patrol it, well it would be a lot less than what it would take and is taking to patrol the same area with more people without the wall. We already know those numbers and they are going to go up because we also know that  it isn't working very well and more border patrols are needed to secure us.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

[Kitteredge]

I'm finding out now that my 2018 taxes went up $5k, I now owe money I can't afford. I have never owed money before.

If this is anywhere near as widespread as it sounds, it will have been the misstep that kills Trump's Republican party.

I'm sorry to hear this.

What's crazy is that the GOP apparently expected a big PR boon. They pressured the IRS early last year, it seemed, to change the withholding on most taxpayers, thinking that everyone would be excited at the bigger wages they were taking home and vote Republican in the midterms. Only the amount most people for back per pay period was too small for most of us to notice (if we got any at all).

Meanwhile, we are getting clobbered because they made massive shifts to deductions of all kinds. Suddenly tons of people are getting a hideous surprise. What is really going to suck is that this is permanent. Next year, same thing. Forever. And all that money is getting vacuumed up and given to billionaires and corporations. Forever.

Republican congresspeople enjoyed record donations from the mega-rich the December after this Tax Scam bill was passed, btw.

[SweetSerenade]

And to address the 'just move the species in danger' statement, Loki, I am not sure you understand that most species have very specific climates that they live in. Moving them could very well cause the extinction, or the wipeout, that many people fear. A wall is just simply not the answer.

At all.

It wastes money and resources better spent on fixing our screwed up healthcare system, and education system. We have quite a low ranking compared to other countries. Build education, not a wall.

Walls divide and cause divisiveness, and it could very well increase the alienation we are getting from other Nations. On the other hand, if we poured all that money into Education instead - both K-12 and College/Uni/Trade schools - we would see a boon of a boost in many aspects of our Country.

Illegals are not capable of getting food stamps, or even healthcare, they come here and work under the table jobs - or work jobs they don't ever see any of the money they are paying into. I really wish that people would, in fact, check some of the things they say. You cannot get SNAP or OHP (Oregon's free healthcare and each state has its own for low-income people) without PROOF of Citizenship, it is literally part of the process. Every time I have to sign up for help, I am required to show proof of citizenship, or as on the paperwork, be denied assistance.

These people aren't 'taking our money', they are getting taken for a ride by people who want to use them for cheap labor.

Also going to address something that people often bring up, about Trump being the one to 'increase jobs' is brought up, because that's another one that people bring up in this illegal discussion (don't understand why but maybe its because of the 'They are taking our jobs' mentality) - The QUANTITY of jobs increase does not equate to the QUALITY of those jobs. It doesn't matter if we suddenly have 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 or even 1,000,000 new jobs in the market if the QUALITY of those jobs does not match the QUANTITY. There is NO point in making thousands or even hundreds of thousands of new jobs if none of those jobs actually provide a quality of living for those working them.

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

Walls work, rather people like them or not, they work. Besides, for the people who say that it isn't going to work, well since it has never been done before, then why not let it happen?  I mean, if you are so sure it won't work, then let it fail after it has been built and then you can say "I told you so". The government has wasted money on far more frivolous stuff than a simple wall, right? What could possibility go wrong if the wall is built and you are right? Then it can just be taken down.... but if your wrong.... will you admit it or just ignore it like you never said it shouldn't or wouldn't help?

If I’m wrong, for things, I admit it. So yes I would.

Whether, or not US builds its wall, it doesn’t effect me. I don’t live, in US anymore. I do know, my country thinks Mr Trump a fool, and is happy for seeing him build his wall. Let him play, with his toys, and don’t watch what’s important, in the world. And, keep dividing his own country, he does so much more better himself,  than foreigners.

[persephone325]

Had to listen to my dad go on a short little tangent about how "If Obama and Hilary hadn't given away unmarked money to Iran, we would have the money we need for the wall." and I'm just sitting there biting my tongue.

Anyone with half a functioning brain and a little bit of common sense would have known that the fucking wall wasn't going to be built in 4 goddamn years. *sigh* I've always had respect for my dad, but I'm just upset that he bought into the bullshit that Trump was dishing out. And he's a Marine, no less. I think it was all that lip service Trump gave to the military that sealed the deal for him. I don't know.

>.<

[Sara Nilsson]

Where are you getting your information on that? Most homes aren't on the borders, property is and the little bit of  land that the government would need to put up the metal slatted wall that is going up now is kinda like the sidewalk that runs across the front of your property between you and the street. It's government domain you know, so how would it be any different than that? They aren't stealing anything.

One problem, though, is the volume of land that needs to be acquired to build Trump’s “Great Wall” is vast. One-third of the land is owned by the federal government, while the rest of the land is owned by states, private property owners or Native American tribes. That will be no easy task, especially in Texas, where the vast majority of the land is privately owned.

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/424195-trumps-militarized-land-seizure-for-border-wall-is-more-complicated-than

Previous eminent domain attempts along the Texas border have led to more than a decade of court battles, some of which date to George W. Bush’s administration and have yet to be resolved. Many landowners, like Alvarez, are vowing to fight anew.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trumps-border-wall-would-need-private-property-but-texas-landowners-plan-to-dig-in-for-lengthy-legal-fight/2019/01/10/d7e4cba8-1443-11e9-803c-4ef28312c8b9_story.html?utm_term=.e2d1c0592cb2

So we already have court battles from when Bush tried to seize land. And those havent been resolved yet, so any further claims by Trump is also likely to take many many years.

[Kitteredge]

On seizure of land alone, this is never gonna happen.

What makes me laugh is how Trumpers think they're so brilliant with this idea. The country has been around for two hundred forty-some odd years. How come you're the brilliant ones to come up with this now? Or... Maybe all these other presidents and legislators and people were smarter than you?

[Callie Del Noire]

Had to listen to my dad go on a short little tangent about how "If Obama and Hilary hadn't given away unmarked money to Iran, we would have the money we need for the wall." and I'm just sitting there biting my tongue.

Anyone with half a functioning brain and a little bit of common sense would have known that the fucking wall wasn't going to be built in 4 goddamn years. *sigh* I've always had respect for my dad, but I'm just upset that he bought into the bullshit that Trump was dishing out. And he's a Marine, no less. I think it was all that lip service Trump gave to the military that sealed the deal for him. I don't know.

>.<

Wasn’t the money given actually IRANIAN cash from the time of the Shah that had been locked down accruing interest?

[Sara Nilsson]

Yeah it was their money to begin with, but many Trumpers refuse to listen to that.

Also trump has claimed it was $150 BILLION dollars when it was $400 million dollars that belonged to Iran already (plus interest)

Back in late 1979, after Iranian revolutionaries took 52 Americans hostage at the US Embassy in Tehran, the United States severed diplomatic relations with Iran and froze Iranian assets in America. Among those frozen assets was a $400 million delivery of fighter jets from the U.S. that Iran’s previous government had already paid for.

Although the American hostages were finally released a year later, issues such as the frozen Iranian assets (including that $400 million) were not settled at that time. Instead, an international court based in the Hague, the Iran–United States Claims Tribunal was established to deal with such legal claims. The tribunal process dragged on for years and years without a ruling on the $400 million being issued, and finally, when arbitration process was apparently about to wind up (quite possibly not in American’s favor), the U.S. agreed to pay Iran back the $400 million principal along with $1.3 billion in interest. If the issue had gone to the tribunal for a decision, as was expected, the U.S. could have been on the hook for the full $10 billion in compensation Iran was seeking.

[Oniya]

Also going to address something that people often bring up, about Trump being the one to 'increase jobs' is brought up, because that's another one that people bring up in this illegal discussion (don't understand why but maybe its because of the 'They are taking our jobs' mentality) - The QUANTITY of jobs increase does not equate to the QUALITY of those jobs. It doesn't matter if we suddenly have 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 or even 1,000,000 new jobs in the market if the QUALITY of those jobs does not match the QUANTITY. There is NO point in making thousands or even hundreds of thousands of new jobs if none of those jobs actually provide a quality of living for those working them.

So, back in 2011, Georgia passed a law enforcing immigration laws (HB 87).  As a result, they had nobody - other than prison labor - to handle the peach harvest, which resulted in millions of dollars in agricultural losses.  Regular citizens either didn't want or weren't qualified for the 'jobs' that were 'made available', and the wages for 'unskilled workers' were less than what regular citizens were willing to accept.

Recent crackdowns have endangered the mushroom industry in Pennsylvania.  Again, these jobs are rarely taken by people who are full citizens, even when the wages were above minimum wage.

[persephone325]

but many Trumpers refuse to listen to that.

That would be my dad. He always goes "Don't believe everything you read/hear with the news." blah, blah, blah. But yet, he doesn't want to listen to someone who has a different viewpoint that he does.

I truly believe it's because I have no job, therefore my opinion doesn't matter. At least in his mind. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

[SweetSerenade]

So, back in 2011, Georgia passed a law enforcing immigration laws (HB 87).  As a result, they had nobody - other than prison labor - to handle the peach harvest, which resulted in millions of dollars in agricultural losses.  Regular citizens either didn't want or weren't qualified for the 'jobs' that were 'made available', and the wages for 'unskilled workers' were less than what regular citizens were willing to accept.

Recent crackdowns have endangered the mushroom industry in Pennsylvania.  Again, these jobs are rarely taken by people who are full citizens, even when the wages were above minimum wage.

That's another kettle of fish, Oniya, that really annoys me. They complain about these people 'taking jobs' - but they are jobs that people think are 'beneath' them. It's ridiculous. Just because a job isn't as desirable as others, doesn't mean someone doesn't deserve a living wage. That's how I see it.

The divide of jobs in this country, and how they are viewed, is another thing that really bothers me. Just because someone works fast food doesn't mean they don't deserve to live. Everyone deserves a chance to live, and many of these people are working multiple jobs just to survive in the current economy. Many are living below their means, and still can barely make savings for emergency situations (I know this one personally), and some can't even live within their means because of the cost of living.

We need to focus on fixing the economy, and part of that is changing the view of how some labor positions are viewed. As well as making sure that even 'unskilled labor' positions receive living wages.

If you work 12+ hour days, 5+ days a week, or work weeks in a row, you should be able to live.

<3 Thank you for your sources Oniya, I always enjoy your posts.

[Sara Nilsson]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/13/politics/paul-manafort-robert-mueller/index.html

Paul Manafort "intentionally" lied to special counsel Robert Mueller's office, breaking the plea agreement that made him the star cooperator in the Russia probe, a federal judge found on Wednesday.
Manafort "made multiple false statements to the FBI, the OSC and the grand jury concerning matters that were material to the investigation," including his contacts with his Russian associate during the campaign and later, Judge Amy Berman Jackson wrote on Wednesday.

So his plea deal is null and void so he is likely to now see decades in prison. The poor guy.. *snicker*

[gaggedLouise]

Most of you have probably heard it by now, but it's effing history: Trump is actually going to declare a National Emergency relating to the southern border, to try to wrest some taxpayer money and start his botched wall.

Instant legal and political challenges ahead, and Trump's methods will look more dictatorial than ever. By the way it's quite uncertain what kind of money he can scrap together to get going with his wall - it's not like a declaration of emergency would give him the right to just start his own bank note press or write out a blank cheque of six billion dollars to fund the wall.

Also, and just as surprisingly: Andrew McCabe told an experienced journalist, Scott Pelley, writing a book about Trump and National Security, that during his tenure as acting head of the FBI, after Comey had been fired, he was in serious discussions with other intelligence people and the DOJ about how the 25th amendment could be used to remove Trump on the ground of him being unfit for the office. Now, this was already in the summer of 2017! :)

Around the same time, Rod Rosenstein (according to McCabe, in talks with Pelley) offered them, multiple times, to carry a hidden wire and a recording device every time he met Trump, to secretly record any conversations and outbursts by the president. Now, that speaks volumes.... :)

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/429960-mccabe-said-justice-dept-discussed-25th-amendment-confirms-rosenstein

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

I don’t understand. When I live in US, Republicans always complain, Mr Obama rules, with his executive orders. But, now Mr Trump, he gets for making his wall, without Congress? Do I miss something, or is this big mistake?

[RedPhoenix]

I don’t understand. When I live in US, Republicans always complain, Mr Obama rules, with his executive orders. But, now Mr Trump, he gets for making his wall, without Congress? Do I miss something, or is this big mistake?

No. American politicians only say abuse of power is only bad when someone else does it.

[TheGlyphstone]

The two parties are basically hostile armed camps. If your side does it, its okay. If the other side does it, it's wrong.

[gaggedLouise]

The two parties are basically hostile armed camps. If your side does it, its okay. If the other side does it, it's wrong.

True, and it's getting even some of their supporters overseas up in arms. I was following discussion about Trump's planned order and the Wall on one of the biggest online politics forums in Sweden (albeit with a strong ultra-right-wing presence) and somebody added a raving post about how he wanted this to open the way to a military dictatorship in the US, mass arrests and executions of democrat politicians and lawyers, forced expulsion of millions of Latino immigrants etc. "The future looks bright!"

Meanwhile, a friend of mine assessing Trump when I told her about the breaking news during a phone call last night: "What a moron!" 

[Mantis Shrimp Prime]

A little somewhat Trump-related gem I felt the need to share with other people:

So, I overheard a young person (I'm guessing 12... at least no older than 14), talking very loudly to his friend on speaker phone, about how he had her that Trump was going to retire and step down, and that if that happened he was going to be upset, because apparently if that happens Hillary Clinton will become president.


Now, I knew this individual wasn't too sharp beforehand, but I just had to mentally facepalm at that.

[loki]

Why is it that a lot of other people from other countries are worried about what Trump is doing in his own borders of his own country? Trump is trying to fix the country that he loves, not take over the world. He wants to make his own country safe and self sustaining once again, so that we don't have to rely on anyone for anything.  Why does this bother so many people who are not from the USA?

[Lustful Bride]

Why is it that a lot of other people from other countries are worried about what Trump is doing in his own borders of his own country? Trump is trying to fix the country that he loves, not take over the world. He wants to make his own country safe and self sustaining once again, so that we don't have to rely on anyone for anything.  Why does this bother so many people who are not from the USA?

Because the USA is a stabilizing force in the world, keeping Russia and China from having too much of a monopoly on power. And under Trump it has been growing more destabilized. If the police officer you trusted all your life suddenly started losing his shit, threatening you and changing his mind about things on the drop of a dime, wouldn't you be worried?

[loki]

Because the USA is a stabilizing force in the world, keeping Russia and China from having too much of a monopoly on power. And under Trump it has been growing more destabilized. If the police officer you trusted all your life suddenly started losing his shit, threatening you and changing his mind about things on the drop of a dime, wouldn't you be worried?

Trump didn't destabilize anything, the man has only been in office for two years. I know people just love to put all the blame on him, but the destabilization came from the men before Trump took office. Trump could see how our military was weakening, how our economy was failing and how weak we looked as a nation in front of Russia and China. They were rebuilding or building their weapons and nukes as we were taking ours apart and disarming ourselves. He is putting a stop to all the now trade agreements that had turned from good to help one another to just plain bad for us and good for them.

[Lustful Bride]

Trump didn't destabilize anything, the man has only been in office for two years.

And what a glorious job he has done abusing the Mexicans, poisoning the environment and not really doing anything else but going on twitter rants and behaving like the most unprofessional president in American history.

I know people just love to put all the blame on him,

Just like everyone used to blame Obama and Bush, except Trump is far less skilled at looking like he can actually do stuff.

but the destabilization came from the men before Trump took office. Trump could see how our military was weakening, how our economy was failing and how weak we looked as a nation in front of Russia and China.

And he has done a great job of making it worse and ruining alliances designed to make the US and other allied nations stronger against Russia and China.

They were rebuilding or building their weapons and nukes as we were taking ours apart and disarming ourselves. He is putting a stop to all the now trade agreements that had turned from good to help one another to just plain bad for us and good for them.

He hasn't done jack shit to stop them from doing so except breaking off disarmament deals that pretty much give Russia free reign to openly develop weapons without even having to pretend to follow the treaties, and harming his own people with bullshit trade wars that are a slap on the wrist to China while it continues ot secure power in the region and engage in economic colonialism in Africa, eating up resources left and right, while our own infrastructure is left unattended and uncared for because a wall is far more important.

[loki]

And what a glorious job he has done abusing the Mexicans, poisoning the environment and not really doing anything else but going on twitter rants and behaving like the most unprofessional president in American history.

What? How has he done these things? Please give examples, because I would love to know where you are getting your information from.

Just like everyone used to blame Obama and Bush, except Trump is far less skilled at looking like he can actually do stuff.

Because it WAS them that weakened our military. Them who cut funding and disposed of weapons that were meant to protect us.

And he has done a great job of making it worse and ruining alliances designed to make the US and other allied nations stronger against Russia and China.

Now that's funny since all the other countries in that alliance weren't even a third of the way trained or equipped to even defend themselves much less and attach from Russia, China or even North Korea. The US trained them and help update or gave them new stuff just so they could keep up with us. So in short, they wanted the US to do all of the work and they would take the glory when things we almost done by coming in and "helping".

He hasn't done jack shit to stop them from doing so except breaking off disarmament deals that pretty much give Russia free reign to openly develop weapons without even having to pretend to follow the treaties, and harming his own people with bullshit trade wars that are a slap on the wrist to China while it continues ot secure power in the region and engage in economic colonialism in Africa, eating up resources left and right, while our own infrastructure is left unattended and uncared for because a wall is far more important.

Russia, China and North Korea were never following the treaties anyway, so why put up with the farce of acting like they were and being a "good boy" and keeping up our end of the deal?

As far as harming his own people... well he hasn't. He has brought back jobs and is using our own resources so that we don't rely on anyone. Africa, isn't the USA and there for they should take care of themselves, just like they think we should if we were invaded. We have fought for this country to keep what we have, just because someone else doesn't want to fight for their own county doesn't make it our responsibility to go in and do it for them.

Also, the wall is important. It will keep us safe and unwanted invaders out. That way we can work on the US and fix what we need to fix instead of trying to fight off scavengers who would happily take everything from us in a heart beat.

[Lustful Bride]

What? How has he done these things? Please give examples, because I would love to know where you are getting your information from.

Typing from phone on college so linking sources will be hard but a few examples include, holding camps for illegals (and some legals who got screwed) where children were separated from families and a few children died. Restarting the pipeline going through native American lands and not batting an eye at the abuses by police on protesters. Removing air quality controls and weakwning the EPA as well as helping Republicans approve of a bill to allow asbestos back into builsing materials (Free cancer for everybody!)

Because it WAS them that weakened our military. Them who cut funding and disposed of weapons that were meant to protect us.

Havent really seen him do much for the military aside from empty promises, pats on the back and plugging his ears when our generals say things je doesnt like.

Now that's funny since all the other countries in that alliance weren't even a third of the way trained or equipped to even defend themselves much less and attach from Russia, China or even North Korea. The US trained them and help update or gave them new stuff just so they could keep up with us. So in short, they wanted the US to do all of the work and they would take the glory when things we almost done by coming in and "helping".

When you are the strongest force around you have to accept that you will need to pull nore weight than the others. It sucks but thats how it is. Would you rather we not be there and suddenly have Red blitzkreigs happening and losing our old friends?

Russia, China and North Korea were never following the treaties anyway, so why put up with the farce of acting like they were and being a "good boy" and keeping up our end of the deal?

Because it acts as a stabilizing measure to keep an arms race from occuring. We should have been working on better defenses as well though.

As far as harming his own people... well he hasn't. He has brought back jobs and is using our own resources so that we don't rely on anyone.

Yes he has. The LGBT community have been screwed over in his administration. Racial tensions are on fire, political tensions are just as bad, he denies basic scientiffic facts which only harm us and fuckdd over federal workers recently. Oh yeah and we all pay more in taxes now ve

Africa, isn't the USA and there for they should take care of themselves, just like they think we should if we were invaded.

but if you have the power to get involved and keep people free, you have a duty to use that power.

We have fought for this country to keep what we have, just because someone else doesn't want to fight for their own county doesn't make it our responsibility to go in and do it for them.

To keep what we have we need an ordered stabilized world. And it needs a stable US to remain that way.

We don't get the privilege to sit back and play dumb. Every fight is our fight. It comes with being a superpower. We must guarantee the freedoms of other nations and stop injustice when we can to keep the world from going back to a fascist and totalitarian powder keg.

Also, the wall is important. It will keep us safe and unwanted invaders out. That way we can work on the US and fix what we need to fix instead of trying to fight off scavengers who would happily take everything from us in a heart beat.

The wall is a waste of resources. Those scavengers are people who mop your floors, pick your food from fields, clean up your garbage. They put up woth a lot and deserve to at least be treated like human beings.