The Alt-Right Isn't Even Pretending Anymore

[TheGlyphstone]

It's pretty much what he was calling for if he lost this election. So is it really that far fetched?

That's taking even the more extreme of his pre-election remarks a bit far. So yeah, I cannot see even Trump actively calling for rebellion if he loses in 2020.

What we really need to be scared of is that like most presidents tend to do, he'll play turtle for his first term, and be just milquetoast enough that he can swing the incumbent advantage into a second term. Then he's really got nothing left to lose and can cut loose with whatever the hell he wants. The GOP will be paying interest for decades on that, but he won't care, he's done with the presidency.

[TheSithChicken]

He flat out told people to do that. It's not a stretch at all. It's not misinterpreting anything. He told people to do just that.

[HannibalBarca]

Trump's reasons for his behavior don't have to make sense to anyone but himself.

There really is no silver lining in any of this folks, except for the fact that maybe most of the populace will be so pissed off that the GOP will probably cease to exist 4-8 years down the line.

It may fracture, but I don't see it going away completely.  The people it represents still need a vehicle by which to express their desires.  The Whig Party collapsed, and was replaced by the Republican Party.  If the GOP falls apart, most likely it will split into two or more parties.  That, I believe, would actually make it more likely that the Democrats would split up, too...in a sort of Balkanization of the two-party system.  There are more than enough people in both parties pissed off at the establishment.  The liberal wing of the Democrats would see the splitting of the Republicans as an opportunity for a new, completely progressive party to actually have a chance to win elections.  To be honest, this fracturing and the necessity after that for compromise and consensus and faction-building might actually be good for the nation.  The two-party system isn't making anyone happy anymore.

[Tamhansen]

I doubt he'll have enough traction to get more than a few nuts to come to his aid. His reign is likely no longer than one term. The question is how much damage his cabinet can do in that time.

[Trigon]

I doubt he'll have enough traction to get more than a few nuts to come to his aid. His reign is likely no longer than one term. The question is how much damage his cabinet can do in that time.

I'm sure that Trump and his nutters will be enough to cause a major constitutional crisis, at the very least. If not through contesting his eventual loss, then possibly by appointing Supreme Court justices who will most certainly just rubber stamp everything that Trump and the loony fringe of the GOP wants passed through, and will refuse to hold hearings for any legitimate concerns (i.e. discrimination, corruption, climate change legislation, etc.).

[Trigon]

To be honest, this fracturing and the necessity after that for compromise and consensus and faction-building might actually be good for the nation.  The two-party system isn't making anyone happy anymore.

Yes, that is certainly true. The US political system as it currently exists has indeed, in my view, been completely discredited.

BUT...Changing this system will be very difficult since many of the needed changes will probably require a few constitutional amendments. And can we really expect the current ruling parties, in particular the GOP, to actually pass legislation for this?

[Trigon]

That's taking even the more extreme of his pre-election remarks a bit far. So yeah, I cannot see even Trump actively calling for rebellion if he loses in 2020.

I disagree; I can totally see this happening. The fact that he would suggest doing such a thing at all is already a major red flag, and very distressing. And let us not forget that he has, while on the campaign trail, used dog whistle terms to call for the assassination of Hillary Clinton back in August.

The tactics he used in 2016 will most certainly be used again in 2020, now that he knows that he can get away with saying such things, and embolden his supporters into using violence to support the continuation of his regime.

[Cassandra LeMay]

To be honest, this fracturing and the necessity after that for compromise and consensus and faction-building might actually be good for the nation.  The two-party system isn't making anyone happy anymore.

It's a nice thought, but don't rely too much on any "necessity for compromise". The first-past-the-post election system could still lead to two parties dominating politics, only that they might do it with a smaller share of the popular vote. Right now you might have election results with a vote distribution of (e.g.) 50/45/3/2% With stronger "splinter parties" you might get results of 35/30/20/15%. The end result would be a system still dominated by one or two parties, but with the added drawback of even more voters whose vote doesn't count. Sure, it doesn't have to happen that way, but as long as you have FPTP elections I see it as a real risk.

[Tamhansen]

With a president it will always be fptp.

What could work though is having congress decided via proportional rep, but the GOP will never go for that. In absolute numbers the Democrats would beat them for control every time.

[CuriousEyes]

A bit late for this discussion, but I did want to drop this by with regard to the "you can be conservative and have voted for Trump without being racist/sexist/phobic" bit that was going on earlier. All of that is true, but please read this just as a counterpoint:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/there_is_no_such_thing_as_a_good_trump_voter.html

Whether Trump’s election reveals an “inherent malice” in his voters is irrelevant. What is relevant are the practical outcomes of a Trump presidency. Trump campaigned on state repression of disfavored minorities. He gives every sign that he plans to deliver that repression. This will mean disadvantage, immiseration, and violence for real people, people whose “inner pain and fear” were not reckoned worthy of many-thousand-word magazine feature stories. If you voted for Trump, you voted for this, regardless of what you believe about the groups in question. That you have black friends or Latino colleagues, that you think yourself to be tolerant and decent, doesn’t change the fact that you voted for racist policy that may affect, change, or harm their lives. And on that score, your frustration at being labeled a racist doesn’t justify or mitigate the moral weight of your political choice. 

[Cassandra LeMay]

“Okay, so you bought a bucket of nails ’cause you needed the bucket and they didn’t sell empty ones. Did you buy nails?”

I found this quote in the comments to [ur=http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/l]a blog post[/url] that I found a good read that sums up many points I would make to Trump voters.

But... as much as I would love to bask in moral superiority and gloating, the presidential eletion is the past.

[Trigon]

Trump's new claim that millions of people "voted illegally": http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/27/us/politics/trump-adviser-steps-up-searing-attack-on-romney.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/

Does anyone among us still believe that Trump or the far right will willingly concede power come 2020 (or 2024 if his administration happens to last 8 years)?

[TheGlyphstone]

Trump's new claim that millions of people "voted illegally": http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/27/us/politics/trump-adviser-steps-up-searing-attack-on-romney.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/

Does anyone among us still believe that Trump or the far right will willingly concede power come 2020 (or 2024 if his administration happens to last 8 years)?

Everyone except you and DarkPrince, really. The rest of us aren't quite ready to play Chicken Little to that degree.

He might not willingly concede, but there's damn-all he can do to stop it in 2020 if the Republicans can put forth a competent candidate (or the Democrats, for that matter, though a GOP-flagged contestant is much more likely to lure Trump's flyover state block away). The masses that backed him will desert, leaving him only with the neo-Nazi lunatic fringe, and I don't care how many AR-15s your backwoods freedom militia stockpiles next to their still, they can't be more than an annoyance to actual National Guard troops if they decide to riot in protest.

[TheSithChicken]

Thanks for the insult, Glyph.

[Trigon]

Everyone except you and DarkPrince, really. The rest of us aren't quite ready to play Chicken Little to that degree.

He might not willingly concede, but there's damn-all he can do to stop it in 2020 if the Republicans can put forth a competent candidate (or the Democrats, for that matter, though a GOP-flagged contestant is much more likely to lure Trump's flyover state block away). The masses that backed him will desert, leaving him only with the neo-Nazi lunatic fringe, and I don't care how many AR-15s your backwoods freedom militia stockpiles next to their still, they can't be more than an annoyance to actual National Guard troops if they decide to riot in protest.

I will accept this as a concession from you. For you now at least acknowledge that it is real possibility, and that it will in fact be far messier to remove them from power than we'd like, so I thank you for understanding. I only hope that you find the fact that it may require what amounts to a military coup (and that you are banking your hopes on such a prospect if it comes down to it) to flush them out, to be a very disturbing prospect.


It is important to remember, do not live in "normal times" any longer. Understand that it is difficult to credit you with the claim of "Chicken Little" in light of the fact that the now president-elect Trump is on public record for:

1) Suggesting that he may not accept the result of the election.

2) Threatening to jail his political opponents.

3) His repeated and constant threats to journalists and other news organizations, thereby imperiling the right of free speech.

4) His outlandish lies and blatant hyperbole regarding immigration. Which, by the way, is in the same league as North Korean propaganda.

5) The support he gets from White Supremacists. And his refusal to disavow their support.

6) Blatant and public misogyny.

7) Global warming denial, and his threats to gut climate change mitigation efforts.

8) The staffing of the government with corporate interest groups, thereby turning the US into a kleptocracy.

9) His support of torture and other human rights violations.

10) His praise and admiration of other authoritarian dictatorships.

11) His repeated promises to build a wall , create a national registry for Muslims, and deport innocents from our nation.

12) His cavalier attitude around nuclear weapons.

13) His willingness to suspend due process to US citizens, by sending them to Guantanamo Bay.

And on and on. Really, the full list can be viewed in all its glory here. Wouldn't you at least agree that, in light of all this, that we are justified in sounding alarm bells right about now?

[Prosak]

Lol, nope they are not even pretending anymore. ROFL, . Thats why I laugh and as should you. More we talk about these people the more credence we give their discussion. I am all for Intellectual Courage but they have gone from being Intellectually courageous to being intellectually backwatered.

[TheGlyphstone]

I will accept this as a concession from you. For you now at least acknowledge that it is real possibility, and that it will in fact be far messier to remove them from power than we'd like, so I thank you for understanding. I only hope that you find the fact that it may require what amounts to a military coup (and that you are banking your hopes on such a prospect if it comes down to it) to flush them out, to be a very disturbing prospect.

I don't think you quite understand what a military coup is.

the illegal and overt seizure of a state by the military or other elites within the state apparatus.

If Trump loses the re-election, then by definition once the Electors have formally met and cast their votes, and said votes have been counted he is not the President anymore. It would not be a coup for the police/military to evict him/his armed supporters from the White House; rather, he would be at the very least trespassing, and there would be an argument for treason if he actively calls for rebellion in his support. The military would be obeying their legal orders from the new president to evict him. Strictly speaking he would remain the President until Jan 20th post-election, but all holding out and refusing to concede would do is ensure his legacy was forever poisoned and disgraced. Someone as egotistical as he is would never risk that.

Remember, we've never disagreed on the fundamental point that Trump's presidency is going to be an utter disaster. All your highlighted points are absolutely supportive of that. Where we are clashing is that you attribute his comments (words, not actions as of yet) to malice, whereas I just see simple stupidity/incompetence. You believe he'll spend the next four years somehow singlehandedly transforming America into a fascist dictatorship, whereas I believe he'll blunder and bluster while his cronies run rampant, then be booted out and return to his celebrity existence. The next president, GOP or Democrat, will be left cleaning up his mess.

[Skynet]

Lol, nope they are not even pretending anymore. ROFL, . Thats why I laugh and as should you. More we talk about these people the more credence we give their discussion. I am all for Intellectual Courage but they have gone from being Intellectually courageous to being intellectually backwatered.

Kinda hard to do when their members end up getting political legitimacy and can thus help shape policies on a nationwide level. As long as Steve Bannon remains as chief strategist in Trump's administration he and alt-right sympathizers deserve all the criticism they deserve.

[Prosak]

inda hard to do when their members end up getting political legitimacy and can thus help shape policies on a nationwide level. As long as Steve Bannon remains as chief strategist in Trump's administration he and alt-right sympathizers deserve all the criticism they deserve.

All presidents or those running for president deserve to be held up to a higher standard, watched, and put through a fined toothed comb. So I agree with your statement on the grounds that Criticisms should absolutely take place when at all applicable. Which is why it honestly befuddles me that most news networks go out of their way not to provide criticism of Barrack Obama or Hillary Clinton. In which there is plenty of criticism to go around. That said, I dont mean to literally ignore them, of coarse any fringe group from extreme SJW's to the Ult right, etc should be watched and criticized with that aforementioned fined toothed comb. What I mean by my comment is that: People shouldn't let their language, ideals, actions truly bother them. Dont let things get under your skin like this. In a age of intellectual reasoning, ones skin should be thick and iron. One should act with intellectual Honesty, Intellectual Integrity, Intellectual Humility and Intellectual courage. Taking on their ideas in a propper form of debate and legitimate, well thought out and researched critisisms. Just pointing them out on twitter and using the 20 character limit to say "Alt-right so evil, death to all those cis scum bigots #FuckAltRight" Will not win the hearts and minds of any one, least of all those who are in the Alt Right. Henceforth: Just laugh at them. From the inside. Don't let them bother you. Debate them, the right way. Not the fringe way like them, or extreme sjws. I dont know why, and I guess im going off subject by talking about this. But america and Britain both seemed to have strayed from an age of intellectual reasoning. And into a despot age of hacks living in their own little worlds, screaming in la la land as their pursuit of knowledge heaves into an eternal ebys of nothing except intellectual Arrogance.

Sorry for the Tangent. >_< . The short answer is: When I say laugh at them, I mean dont let them bother you or ruin your day. They are not worth it.

[Skynet]

All presidents or those running for president deserve to be held up to a higher standard, watched, and put through a fined toothed comb. So I agree with your statement on the grounds that Criticisms should absolutely take place when at all applicable. Which is why it honestly befuddles me that most news networks go out of their way not to provide criticism of Barrack Obama or Hillary Clinton. In which there is plenty of criticism to go around. That said, I dont mean to literally ignore them, of coarse any fringe group from extreme SJW's to the Ult right, etc should be watched and criticized with that aforementioned fined toothed comb. What I mean by my comment is that: People shouldn't let their language, ideals, actions truly bother them. Dont let things get under your skin like this. In a age of intellectual reasoning, ones skin should be thick and iron. One should act with intellectual Honesty, Intellectual Integrity, Intellectual Humility and Intellectual courage. Taking on their ideas in a propper form of debate and legitimate, well thought out and researched critisisms. Just pointing them out on twitter and using the 20 character limit to say "Alt-right so evil, death to all those cis scum bigots #FuckAltRight" Will not win the hearts and minds of any one, least of all those who are in the Alt Right. Henceforth: Just laugh at them. From the inside. Don't let them bother you. Debate them, the right way. Not the fringe way like them, or extreme sjws. I dont know why, and I guess im going off subject by talking about this. But america and Britain both seemed to have strayed from an age of intellectual reasoning. And into a despot age of hacks living in their own little worlds, screaming in la la land as their pursuit of knowledge heaves into an eternal ebys of nothing except intellectual Arrogance.

Sorry for the Tangent. >_< . The short answer is: When I say laugh at them, I mean dont let them bother you or ruin your day. They are not worth it.

You're waffling back and forth now. "Don't talk about them" to "do talk about them" to "debate them with the intent of winning over hearts and minds" to "just laugh at them."

I don't know what you're trying to convey aside from "people complain too much. And they're really just harmless people." Which if anything comes off more as trying to delegitimize criticism against them under the guise of neutrality along with a "why doesn't the news criticize Hillary and Obama more?" Well they do, just not anywhere near as much on cable TV in the US. Which is a problem, but you did it as a "both sides are equally bad" fallacy which I don't honestly think can be applied in regards Trump and his fanbase vs. Obama and his fanbase.

Edit: Some popular news and fake-news networks critical of Hillary and Obama include which are listened by a lot of people include The Young Turks, Secular Talk radio, Al-Jazeera English, Fox News, far-right talk radio, Alex Jones Channel, and Russia Today just to name a few.

[Prosak]

Here sorry I know I'm not the best at articulating myself; Don't let them bother you, just do what you think is the best response but don't let idiots ruin your day for doing idiot things. Smile, and enjoy your day.

I hope that made sense?

[Blythe]

Here sorry; Don't let them bother you, just do what you think is the best response but don't let idiots ruin your day for doing idiot things. Smile, and enjoy your day.

I hope that made sense?

If I understand correctly the general tone of what you're trying to convey, you're going for: "Don't let them spoil the good things in life for you with their rhetoric. Engage in debate and fight for what you believe in so you can keep those good things, but in the words of poet and orator George Herbert, 'Living well is the best revenge.' "

(I hope I got that right?  )

[Prosak]

If I understand correctly the general tone of what you're trying to convey, you're going for: "Don't let them spoil the good things in life for you with their rhetoric. Engage in debate and fight for what you believe in so you can keep those good things, but in the words of poet and orator George Herbert, 'Living well is the best revenge.' "

(I hope I got that right?  )

You have the mind of a saint and the heart of a poet girl. Lol. Yes reading that feels precisely what I was going for. Edit: You are way better at articulating stuff then me.

[Blythe]

You have the mind of a saint and the heart of a poet girl. Lol. Yes reading that feels precisely what I was going for.

*whispers* I'm a dude. A trans-dude, but a dude.

But I'm glad I understood what you meant. 

[Prosak]

*cringes at his stupidity* sorry I usually judge by the colors and the Lord lady etc. I assumed Oracle meant. Ya know. Lol Sorry. T_T

I'm just really bad at reading those.