The Dungeons of Doom

[kongming]

Ouch. Yea, they suck at fighting things that rogues suck against, and have to rely on Abuse Magic Device. Or creating illusions of lava pits, which the mindless things only recognise as illusions once they interact with them, and because they won't jump into lava they never interact... you get the idea.

But it severely limits your options.

[Jefepato]

Jefpato: I've seen a mindbender in actual play... and, yes, they do suck. Those lost caster levels hurt. And can you even qualify for it, at 6th? Warblade's probably a much better choice for a soloist, anyway.

You certainly can qualify for it at 6th; it doesn't require more than 4 ranks in any skill, so you can have 1 level in mindbender as long as you started in any class that can cast charm person by 5th level.  (Taking one level in mindbender is actually worth it; it just becomes useless after that, and I'm not going to screw around with min/maxy one-level dips in a game like this.)

Jeramiahh, may I assume that the Lolth-touched template is not going to be permitted as written?  Also, how do you feel about Savage Species-style progressions for creatures above ECL 6?

[Jeramiahh]

Can you? It's been a while since I saw it... I couldn't remember what level he went into it.

Lloth touched template... lemme look it up, quick. Yeah... it's awesome for NPCs... but +6 STR and CON, as well as a few other perks, for a mere +1 LA? As a straight melee, that's worth more than a couple levels, so I'll have to say 'no' to this one; it looks like it was designed more for NPCs, anyway.

Savage Species? I've seen some decent things come out of it, if done intelligently. *points to a character from one of Kongming's games, a half-satyr, half-succubus* Though he was pretty powerful, I have to admit. We can certainly discuss it, though.

[Jefepato]

I was thinking of playing a Savage-progression troll.  It loses a lot of HD, but it does have a great amount of regeneration (which increases survivability by about 500%) and all-around good stats.

Alternatively, there's the half-ogre, an old favorite which has the advantage of letting me actually have class levels, but it seems a little crummy for LA +2 (though it was crazy broken at +1).

[Dingo]

This is Elliquiy, why bother with munchkinism ... reason nr. 2 I don't like D&D.

[Jefepato]

I don't see any munchkinism here.  Nor what D&D has to do with it -- munchkinism is no more frequent in D&D than in any other RPG that offers players some degree of control over their characters' traits.

[Jeramiahh]

*shrug* It's up to the player. If they want to play something unique, that's also powerful, the challenge will adjust to meet them. If they want to play "Senor El Vorpal Kickass-o", the guy with one level in every base class... they can do that, too. =P They just won't face the same challenges. That's why I like single-player games... who cares if you cheat? Or not? It's only affecting you.

Jef: Send me a breakdown of the class, so I can look it over.

[Jefepato]

Nah...looking at the troll again, it's a little too freaky for me to enjoy playing it in a sexual game.  I think I'll stick with the half-ogre.  If that's acceptable, I'll PM stats sometime soon.

[OldSchoolGamer]

This is Elliquiy, why bother with munchkinism ... reason nr. 2 I don't like D&D.

Third Edition D&D is a lot more vulnerable to munchkinism than Second was.  One of the reasons I'm not a big fan of 3/3.5E.  

During one game I ran a long time ago, I kept all the mechanics back behind the counter...the players didn't even get character sheets.  No min-maxing, no begging for a stat to be raised or for some new power.  No prestige classes with über names like Mindbender or Arch-sorceror or whatever.  You wanted a cool-sounding title, you had to earn it by building your character up...if you lived long enough.

[Xillen]

That's telling more about the players than about the system.

As for prestige classes, if you read up on them, they are (almost) all placed in some order, and thus the character actually needs to contact that order and learn from them before he can pick his first level. A DM that doesn't want Mindbenders or Archsorcerers can simply decline them.

I actually see systems more as a way to keep players in check, so all players can have reasonably the same amount of power, whereas in a freeform game, some people are really powerplayers, while others are the opposite because they're trying too hard not to be a powerplayer.

3.0 had some problems with lvl1 multiclassing giving some really nice abilities, but they fixed that in 3.5, pushing abilities that were really nice for other classes up to 2nd or 3rd level.

[kongming]

Just a little tip on the blurred titles:

Munchkin: a very small person, or alternatively, someone who gets enjoyment out of ruining everyone else's fun. Someone who specifically decides to play characters that won't work with the rest of the party. Examples: someone designed to outshine the rest, someone designed to hinder the rest by being too weak, someone with in-character reasons to not get along with the party.

Power Gamer: Someone who likes powerful characters. They don't even necessarily want their characters to be more powerful than the rest of the party, nor do they want to stomp all over the opposition. This kind of person (me!) likes games that start higher than levels 1-3, because in the slightly higher levels, you're dealing with actual heroes. You're also facing monsters that you can actually write home about. One can of course be both a Power Gamer AND a Munchkin, in which case 99% of the time they want to outshine the rest of the party.

Optimiser: Someone who simply likes to play with the numbers, and likes to make their character the best they can be. They enjoy looking at the stats and playing around within the rules. They're probably happy to help other party members with their stats too, to make sure everyone is on the same footing. I sort of fit into this category, to a degree. I can still curb it easily enough though, as many do. Heck, a responsible optimiser knows that sometimes they SHOULD take something less than the best, just so they don't crush everything else (a Cleric who wears Light armour is a small yet significant change, as is playing a Sorcerer instead of the almighty Wizard).

Just being helpful here! Also covering my own ass to avoid "BAAAAAAW, kongming is a rollplayer, not a roleplayer!" Although people here probably know that's not true.

And regarding the troll: They're hard to make playable. Mostly because, if you don't go into "the land of acid, fire, poison and death effects" they're sort of unkillable. As a monster, it turns into a puzzle - the "How do we kill it?" puzzle as everyone whips out their acid flasks and fire spells. As a PC, it forces any meaningful challenge to have the answer to the puzzle.

Just being helpfully irritating as always ^^

[Xillen]

Phew... Buying equipment is always my most annoying step in character creation, and after spending several hours looking through over a dozen books, I end up with rather uncreative stuff :(

I guess I'm an Optimizer at heart, but sometimes I just like to make something different.

[Jeramiahh]

My non-magic essentials always include chalk (to make notes of where you've been, write notes in silence, etc.), a whistle (assuming a team), and marbles (great for detecting pit traps). I tend to stick to the classics, though; stat, AC, save, and attack/damage boosters. One reason I like the Magic Item Compendium, and am looking forward to 4th edition... they encourage the use of non-standard items, as opposed to the same boring stuff everyone uses.

[Xillen]

Ah, well, at least I spent 5400gold to overcome armor check penalties ;)

That's something I never resorted to as far as I can remember, though I deliberately limited my gear on more than one occasion in order not to knock to medium or heavy load.

[kongming]

Maybe I should check out the Magic Item Compendium then. I have noticed a lot of "Gain this X/day" things, which is a good way to cheapen the cost, if somewhat cheeky. But I also hear that it has a variety of "cool things".

And to think I could have bought a Candle of Invocation, broken into the Wish economy, and made you say "No. Please don't do that." :D

[Jeramiahh]

Of course, that combo, like most others, are entirely subject to DM fiat. I pity the poor player who thinks to build some god-awful combination, only to have me say, "Wait, how are you taking that prestige class? Did you get my approval? Did you join their guild, receive their training? I think not! Pick a new class, or delay leveling until you do!"

[kongming]

*giggling* Yeah. That being said, the Wish economy thing works when you assume that it is part of the setting (it also means the game doesn't break when the dragon actually has a bed of gold consisting of millions of coins). But it doesn't work when just one person decides to do it in an otherwise ordinary game.

And I've never had a problem with saying "Let's just not do that, and not let it work."

[Jeramiahh]

*chants for several minutes, holding a 5000gp diamond in his hand.* RAISE DEAD!

*looks around, doesn't see anything, scowls.* Alright, making me pull out the big guns, huh?

*pulls out a Raise Dead ritual scroll, repeats process.* LIVE!

[Sonja]

Faral Brandis - Lvl 4 Half-Elf Swordmage

Str: 14|Con: 14|Dex: 10|Int: 19|Wis: 10|Cha: 10
Initiative:  +2

AC: 20|Fort: 15|Ref: 17|Will: 15

Speed:  6

Passive Insight: 19|Passive Perception:  14

HP:  47|Bloodied:  23|Surge Value:  11|Surges/Day:  10

Basic Attacks
Final Word Longsword +1|+10 vs. AC|1d8+8 DMG
Repeating Crossbow|+4 vs. AC|1d8 DMG

Trained Skills
Arcana +11|Endurance +9|History+11

Misc. Skills
Diplomacy +4|Perception +4
All other skills +2

Racial Features
Dilettante - Choose at-will power (Fighter - Footwork Lure) from other class to use as encounter power
Dual Heritage - Qualify for Human, Elven, and Half-Elven racial feats

Class Features
Swordbond - Bond with one blade.  Can call blade to hand with standard action.  Repair in 1 hour.
Aegis of Assault - Use Aegis of Assault power at-will.
Swordmage Warding - +1 AC with blade, +3 if off-hand free.  Non-functioning while character is unconscious

Feats
Stubborn Survivor - +2 to Saving Throws when out of Action Points
Intelligent Blademaster - Use Int instead of Str to modify melee basic attacks
Alertness - No Combat advantage when surprised, +2 to perception

Languages
Common|Elven|Goblin

Equipment
Weapon: Final Word Longsword|Armor: Battle Harness Leather Armor +1|Arms: Bracers of Mighty Striking|Neck: Talon Amulet +1
Unequipped:  Adventurer's Kit|Repeating Crossbow|6 Crossbow Magazines|1 platinum coin|4 gold coins

Powers
At-Will
Aegis of Assault
Arcane, Teleportation|At-Will Minor Action|Close Burst 2|Target 1 Creature in Burst
Effect:  Target Marked until same power used to mark new target.  -2 Penalty to target's attacks that don't include caster as target.  If target's attack hits within 10 squares of caster, caster teleports adjacent to target and makes melee basic attack as immediate reaction.  Reaction cannot occur if no free squares are adjacent to target.

Greenflame Blade
Arcane, Fire, Weapon|At-Will Standard Action|Melee Range|Target 1 Creature +10 vs. AC
Effect:  1d8+6 (+1 w/ Combat Advantage) fire damage and 2 fire damage on all enemies adjacent to target

Lightning Lure
Arcane, Implement, Lightning|At-Will Standard Action|Ranged 3|Target 1 Creature +7 vs. Fort
Effect:  1d6+5 (+1 w/ Combat Advantage) damage and target is pulled to nearest square adjacent to caster.  Power fails completely if no adjacent squares are available



I'll put the rest of the powers up later I'm kinda running out of time for the day.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Hmmm, nice your resurrecting this game up. I am interested join this game. With point buy I assume you haven't included the basic array which is 10, 10, 10, 10 ,10 and 8 before adding the bonus points. Subtracting total -10 from 36 to 26 which is four points more than standard 22pts for customized score base from PHB.

Here is my charsheet so far, working on magic items later and more details. The warlock (dark path) is from 4th edition FR player's guide.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=106896

[Jeramiahh]

This game's always been open recruiting; I just hate bumping it. Not to mention I still receive a lot of interest. =P

As far as the stats; yeah, 4e changed the PB system form 3e, which is annoying, but the number still fits. Character looks good, so far; make sure to include a little backstory, so I can write up an intro for you.

[Creeper]

Male Human Wizard
Level 6
Unaligned
Representing Creeper

Strength    8   (-1)
Constitution    13   (+1)
Dexterity    12   (+1)
Intelligence    20   (+5)
Wisdom    16   (+3)
Charisma    12   (+1)
   
Height:    5' 10"
Weight:    165 lb
Skin:    Pale
Eyes:    Green
Hair:      Sandy Blonde

Maximum Hit Points: 48 [includes toughness]

      Bloodied: 24
      Surge Value: 12
      Surges / Day: 7 [includes constitution modifier]
             

Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal

Initiative:   1d20 +8   = + 3 [half level] + 1 [dexterity] + 4 [improved initiative]
Base Strength Attack:   1d20 +2   = + 3 [half level]-1 [strength]
Base Dexterity Attack:   1d20 +4   = + 3 [half level] + 1 [dexterity]
Base Constitution Attack:   1d20 +4   = + 3 [half level] + 1 [constitution]
Base Intelligence Attack:   1d20 +8   = + 3 [half level] + 5 [intelligence]
Base Wisdom Attack:   1d20 +6   = + 3 [half level] + 3 [wisdom]
Base Charisma Attack:   1d20 +4   = + 3 [half level] + 1 [charisma]

Armor Class:   20   = 10 + 3 [half level] + 5 [intelligence] +2 [armor]
Fortitude Defense:   16   = 10 + 3 [half level] + 1 [Human] + 1 [constitution] +1[item]
Reflex Defense:   20   = 10 + 3 [half level] + 1 [Human] + 5 [intelligence]  +1[item]
Will Defense:   20   = 10 + 3 [half level] + 1 [Human] + 2 [wizard] + 3 [wisdom] +1[item]

Resist 5 Poision
Resist 5 Necrotic

Weapons: Orb of Debilitating Langour +2

Armor: Armor of Resistance (Poision) +2

Neck: Cape of the mountebank +1

Hands: Shadowfell Gloves +1

Feet: Boots of spider Climbing +1

Head: Skull Mask +1

Attacks:

      Unarmed Melee: +2 [base strength attack] vs AC; damage 1[W]=1d4-1 [strength]
      Daggers (x10): +5 vs AC [+2 strength] [+3 proficiency]; damage 1[W]=1d4-1 [strength] 1 lb (Light blade); usable off-hand; light throwable
              Thrown: +7 vs AC [+4 dexterity] [+3 proficient, damage 1d4+1 [dexterity]
      Ray of Frost +10i [base intelligence attack] vs fortitude
      Scorching Burst +10i [base intelligence attack] vs reflex
      Thunderwave +10i [base intelligence attack] vs fortitude
      Icy Terrain +10i [base intelligence attack] vs reflex
      Acid Arrow +10i [base intelligence attack] vs reflex
      Sleep +10i [base intelligence attack] vs will
      Fire Shroud +10i [base intelligence attack] vs fortitude
      Fireball +10i [base intelligence attack] vs reflex
      Stinking Cloud +10i [base intelligence attack] vs fortitude
      i Implement-usable power. Apply a bonus as appropriate.

Base Saving Throw: d20 vs 10


Languages:   Common; Draconic

Rituals Known:

      Brew Potion [Level 1 per revision]
      Make Whole [Level 1]
      Silence [Level 1]
      Knock [Level 4]
      Magic Circle [Level 5]

Skills:

      Acrobatics:   +6   = 1 [dexterity] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
      Arcana:   +13   = 5 [intelligence] + 3 [half level] + 5 [class training]
      Athletics:   +4   = -1 [strength] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
      Bluff:   +6   = 1 [charisma] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
      Diplomacy:   +9   = 1 [charisma] + 3 [half level] + 5 [class training]
      Dungeoneering:   +11   = 3 [wisdom] + 3 [half level] + 5 [class training]
      Endurance:   +6   = 1 [constitution] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
      Heal:   +8   = 3 [wisdom] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
      History:   +13   = 5 [intelligence] + 3 [half level] + 5 [class training]
      Insight:   +11   = 3 [wisdom] + 3 [half level] + 5 [class training]
      Intimidate:   +7   = 1 [charisma] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades] +1 [Item]
      Nature:   +8   = 3 [wisdom] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
      Perception:   +8   = 3 [wisdom] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
      Religion:   +10   = 5 [intelligence] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
      Stealth:   +6   = 1 [dexterity] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
      Streetwise:   +6   = 1 [charisma] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]
      Thievery:   +6   = 1 [dexterity] + 3 [half level] + 2 [jack of all trades]

Feats:

      Action Surge   
      Burning Blizzard   
      Improved Initiative   
      Jack of all Trades   
      Toughness   

At-Will:

      Basic Melee Attack: By weapon, damage 1[W]-1 [strength]
      Basic Ranged Attack: By weapon, damage 1[W]+1 [dexterity]
      Bull Rush: +2 [base strength attack] vs fortitude
      Grab: +2 [base strength attack] vs reflex
      Move grabbed target: +2 [base strength attack] vs fortitude
      Escape: +6 [acrobatics] vs reflex / +4 [athletics] vs fortitude
      Ghost Sound [Wizard]
      Light [Wizard][minor action]
      Mage Hand [Wizard][minor action]
      Prestidigitation [Wizard]
      Ray of Frost [Level 1]
      Scorching Burst [Level 1]
      Thunderwave [Level 1]

      Reminder to Level 6 Wizards: Each day (i.e., after extended rest), you prepare two daily non-utility powers and two utility powers from your spellbook.

Human

    * One extra at-will power from your class (already included)
    * One bonus feat at 1st level (already included)
    * One bonus skill from the skill class list (already included)
    * +1 to fortitude, reflex, and will defenses

Wizard

    * This wizard prefers using an orb.
    * Cantrips
    * Ritual Casting [bonus feat, not listed above]
    * Spellbook

   

Stavos the Fool's Equipment:


      Backpack
      Bedroll
      Flint and steel
      Grappling hook
      Manacles x1
      Mirror
      Pouch (belt) x1
      Rations (1 day) x10
      Rope (50', hempen) x1
      Soap
      Sunrods x2
      Torches x5
      Vial (for ink or potions) x3
      Waterskins x2
      Orb
      Spellbook x1
      Potion of healing x 5 (-250 gold)
      Companion (-500 Gold)
Gold: 1250


Bio: Stavos (or Stavos the Fool as he was known at the Mage Academy) was the 25th child of a elderly nobleman, and the only intellectual among the entire bunch. Most of his family either hated him or grudgingly tolerated him. He was sent off to the Rightshield Mage Academy as soon as he was old enough, and his erratic personality drove others away just as it had drove his family away. While studying at the academy, his father died and left his considerable fortune... only to his favorite children.

This enraged Stavos, and he resolved to conquer the Dungeons of Doom to show the old dead bastard up! Several of his sisters and cousins had tried the same feat, but none had returned. Well, none of them were The Mighty Stavos, now were they!

Appearance: Stavos's attire is more befitting of a beggar than a noble. He has an unruly mop of wavy blonde hair and intense green eyes. His pale skin is marked with dirt. There are deep shadows under his eyes, denoting a lack of sleep. He wears a tan sleaveless shirt and regular brown trousers. Arcane tatoos band around his upper arms. He wears a backpack loaded with his equipment and other strange object.

Lowest Tier Companion: 'Jill' is a several inch tall imp-like figure. She has a more demonic name but Stavos refuses to use it. The long-suffering familiar has been with the Wizard since he was a young child and has repeatedly attempted to corrupt him, but found Stavos far too erratic. Mostly she serves her master as someone to rant at.

Jill has white-pinkish skin, red hair with two small horns poking out the front. She has little to no bust, and quiet blue eyes. A long, folked tail sways out from her bottem and a pair of leathery wings keep her aloft.

(I'm not sure what stats to use to denote Jill. Any tiny weak humanoid should do.)


Edit: Forgot utilities and stuff!

Encounter Powers:

        Second Wind
        Spend an Action Point [free action, not in surprise round]
        Use Implement [free action]
        Icy Terrain [Level 1]
        Fire Shroud [Level 3]

Daily Powers:

        Acid Arrow [Level 1]
        Sleep [Level 1]
        Expeditious Retreat [Level 2 Utility][move action]
        Feather Fall [Level 2 Utility][free action]
        Fireball [Level 5]
        Stinking Cloud [Level 5]
        Dispel Magic [Level 6 Utility; implement as per errata 7/2/08]
        Invisibility [Level 6 Utility]

[Zaer Darkwail]

Ok, charsheet complete with shoppings; http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=106896

Only special is two PC 2lvl companions and instead of one PC 1lvl companion I took 5 minions as cannon fobbers :P (it is eguilevant of same ECL which is 1). Assuming most cases they are 'knocked out' than killed in fights but if serious hit is done to them they are then gone.

[Jeramiahh]

Intriguing; you're the first person to have more than one companion, barring the necromancer who had a handful of summoned skeletons, which I counted more as a class feature than a companion, anyway. =P

I'll see if I can get this up this morning, though I need to leave soon.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Hehe, well I wanted a cleric to heal my injuries (and provide ranged backup/boost) and rogue to deal with traps and scouting stuff (and again ranged support). Minions then are raw cannon fobbers meant soften my foes. In ECL wise I am 6lvl guy, two 2lvl guys and 5 minions counting as 1lvl guy. So average ECL for adventure party of 'four individuals' is 3 in my case I think.

I just designed companions so it is easy determine ECL for me (and have bigger battles and so on).