A mosque near Ground Zero?

[Trieste]

Two notes of importance, since few have bothered to research what's going on before blindly commenting: The mosque would be 2 blocks away from the site of the WTC towers and part of a larger community center and The entity that wants to do this already owns the building/land.

(I don't have a link to the stories; just google 'mosque at ground zero' and you'll find plenty of coverage from your news outlet of choice.)

I personally support the idea. I think it could serve as a powerful symbol of forgiveness on the part of Christians/Westerners/whatever. Not to mention that I think freedom of religion means being able to practice - respectfully - even at the site of a great tragedy.

Not to mention it's hard to get behind the anti-mosque movement when you have Palin tweeting about it and someone calling it a "monument to terrorism" during the Landmarks Preservation Commission hearing. Absolutely disgusting.

There are currently calls to investigate the funding of this mosque, and I think that, too, is bullshit. It's a stall tactic, one meant to act as a failsafe should the NYLPC choose not to designate the building a landmark. I honestly don't know why the Cordoba Initiative (the owner of the building that would be demolished or altered in order to build the proposed mosque) wants to build a mosque on the site; I can say that I honestly don't care about their motives. The majority of US muslims are peaceful and just as opposed to attacks as everyone else is. I don't think someone should be barred from building a place of worship on their own property (provided it's within zoning laws and whatnot). Even if it's on Ground Zero.

Edit: Also, the fact that it's intended to be a community center that includes a mosque, and the fact that it's actually a block or two from Ground Zero itself, speaks in its favor.

[Hemingway]

I agree with more or less everything you said. Heck, I'd feel comfortable supporting it just on general principle, opposing anything that comes out of Sarah Palin's mouth.

Of course, I'm one of those wacky people who doesn't think all Muslims, or even most of them, are terrorists, or support terrorism. I prefer to believe that Muslims are as interested in showing that they aren't all bronze age loons who'd strap explosives to themselves and blow themselves up in a crowd, as anyone else.

[Callie Del Noire]

I'd rather it be beside or nearby Ground Zero than onsite since it would limit access to the site. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they discourage non-followers from entering a mosque right? I think it would be best to have it open to everyone.

[Moreth]

The proposal is to build a site two blocks from ground zero. It's supposed to be a 13 story Islamic center. A gym, pool, sort of a YMCA sort of deal for Muslims. Even though it will not be exclusive to Islam it is being touted to promote interfaith relations, I think it's still an inflammatory gesture and in bad taste to be anywhere near ground zero.

[Doomsday]

I think if you have a problem with a mosque near gz, you should be equally concerned with the dozen or so churches near the okc gz.

[Moreth]

I think if you have a problem with a mosque near gz, you should be equally concerned with the dozen or so churches near the okc gz.

It's not a mosque.

[Callie Del Noire]

The proposal is to build a site two blocks from ground zero. It's supposed to be a 13 story Islamic center. A gym, pool, sort of a YMCA sort of deal for Muslims. Even though it will not be exclusive to Islam it is being touted to promote interfaith relations, I think it's still an inflammatory gesture and in bad taste to be anywhere near ground zero.

That sounds about right..In fact is sounds very positive. I got friends who packed up other friends and moved them into their homes after 9/11 for fear of retaliation. Anything that fosters tolerance should be allowed.

I think if you have a problem with a mosque near gz, you should be equally concerned with the dozen or so churches near the okc gz.

I don't see any problem with churches NEAR it.

[TheScarletBlade]

I personally support the idea. I think it could serve as a powerful symbol of forgiveness on the part of Christians/Westerners/whatever. Not to mention that I think freedom of religion means being able to practice - respectfully - even at the site of a great tragedy.

I honestly have a question about the above statement: What do westerns have to forgive for? Did 13 white people go to Afghanistan, Hijack 3 planes, and in a sneak attack fly them into two massive towers and the headquarters for their entire military? No, I didn't think so...

Of course, I'm one of those wacky people who doesn't think all Muslims, or even most of them, are terrorists, or support terrorism. I prefer to believe that Muslims are as interested in showing that they aren't all bronze age loons who'd strap explosives to themselves and blow themselves up in a crowd, as anyone else.

With 80% of the Muslim population, which is almost 1/3 of the world, Hating the West and Christianity, who is left to not want to kill Americans?

[Hemingway]

I think it's still an inflammatory gesture and in bad taste to be anywhere near ground zero.

If the terrorists had been Christians, would it have been a problem to build a church ( or a YMCA, or whatever else ) near the site?

With 80% of the Muslim population, which is almost 1/3 of the world, Hating the West and Christianity, who is left to not want to kill Americans?

There's so much wrong with this statement. Let's start with some facts first - how do you figure 80% of them hate the west?

[Moreth]

If the terrorists had been Christians, would it have been a problem to build a church ( or a YMCA, or whatever else ) near the site?

If the situation was reversed, yes I would have a problem with it. The organization that has proposed the center is a group called "Cordoba Initiative". If you enjoy history, Cordoba is a city in Andalusia southern Spain. It was conquered by the Moors and occupied during the middle ages. The name Cordoba is a name which continues to represent a symbol of Islamic conquest for Muslims all over the world.

[Nyarly]

I honestly have a question about the above statement: What do westerns have to forgive for? Did 13 white people go to Afghanistan, Hijack 3 planes, and in a sneak attack fly them into two massive towers and the headquarters for their entire military? No, I didn't think so...

With 80% of the Muslim population, which is almost 1/3 of the world, Hating the West and Christianity, who is left to not want to kill Americans?

There are not enough facepalm pictures to express what I think and feel when I read this.

I've met quite some muslims, mostly Turkish Germans (or is it German Turkishs?) who don't hate the west and christianity. What do you say to that? Aren't they real muslims?

[TheScarletBlade]

Between Al Qaeda, Hezbollah and the hundreds of other movements throughout the entire Middle East, Asia and Africa, can you really say that there is such thing as a peaceful Muslim?  If they are not fighting directly, they are supporting indirectly by contributing to their cause. Plus look at all the "non-radicals" who are protesting in Europe, demanding that it changes to fit their needs, hell people over there say they are being invaded without a shot being fired.

When I was in Afghanistan not even three months ago, we would roll into a city and speak with a village elder: he would promise us all this support and friendship. Not even a day later we would be fighting the same people from that village just outside it. They will pretend to play nice and be peaceful until you turn your back and you'll only find a knife in it.

[Nyarly]

Between Al Qaeda, Hezbollah and the hundreds of other movements throughout the entire Middle East, Asia and Africa, can you really say that there is such thing as a peaceful Muslim?  If they are not fighting directly, they are supporting indirectly by contributing to their cause. Plus look at all the "non-radicals" who are protesting in Europe, demanding that it changes to fit their needs, hell people over there say they are being invaded without a shot being fired.

When I was in Afghanistan not even three months ago, we would roll into a city and speak with a village elder: he would promise us all this support and friendship. Not even a day later we would be fighting the same people from that village just outside it. They will pretend to play nice and be peaceful until you turn your back and you'll only find a knife in it.

...It gets worse and worse. To me it sounds that you are nothing but a racist.

I would say something, but the only appropriate things that I can think of are insults.

Screw this, I'm out of here.

[HairyHeretic]

We're all supposed to be adults here, so I expect people to act like it. I do not want to see this devolve into insults and flames.

If anyone wants to toss around wild accusations, you better have some verifiable facts to back them up with.

[Hemingway]

Between Al Qaeda, Hezbollah and the hundreds of other movements throughout the entire Middle East, Asia and Africa, can you really say that there is such thing as a peaceful Muslim?  If they are not fighting directly, they are supporting indirectly by contributing to their cause. Plus look at all the "non-radicals" who are protesting in Europe, demanding that it changes to fit their needs, hell people over there say they are being invaded without a shot being fired.

Statistics, facts, those back up your arguments. I'm only seeing opinions so far.

And those "non-radicals" - you know, the ones not in the news every day, who represent the majority - are well within their rights to do so. Wanting to silence people who use the very rights we accuse them of trying to remove, is hypocritical at best. A bit frightening, honestly. It's hard not to look at the wave of anti-Islamic politics sweeping over Europe at the moment, and not be worried. Because if we deny them the rights they supposedly try to deny us, how are we really any different?

Of course, we aren't any different - not really - but that's a different matter entirely.

When I was in Afghanistan not even three months ago, we would roll into a city and speak with a village elder: he would promise us all this support and friendship. Not even a day later we would be fighting the same people from that village just outside it. They will pretend to play nice and be peaceful until you turn your back and you'll only find a knife in it.

Afghanistan is not the Muslim world as a whole. Furthermore, while I obviously don't support our soldiers being killed ( or anyone being killed, for that matter ), these people are hardly doing so unprovoked. I guess they should be used to foreign soldiers trampling through their country, considering it's just about one of the most war-torn countries in the world.

If the situation was reversed, yes I would have a problem with it. The organization that has proposed the center is a group called "Cordoba Initiative". If you enjoy history, Cordoba is a city in Andalusia southern Spain. It was conquered by the Moors and occupied during the middle ages. The name Cordoba is a name which continues to represent a symbol of Islamic conquest for Muslims all over the world.

I have some slight trouble believing this - the first part, anyway - but fair enough.

[Trieste]

@Scarlet: Forgiveness on the part of Westerners meant the Westerners GIVING forgiveness. Which we should. I don't see why an entire ethnicity and religious population should have to pay for the actions of 13 men. It would be akin to never allowing a Catholic within 500 feet of a minor because some priests assaulted their altar boys. It doesn't make sense to hold the many responsible for the actions of a few.

[Doomsday]

I'm not a Muslim, but this is a roleplaying forum so...

Are you trying to tell me, an american muslim, that i hate the west and even if i don't support overt violence, i'm somehow enabling or supporting the actions of these very extreme radicals?

It must be so simple and carefree, seeing the world so black and white.

[NotoriusBEN]

Indeed it would be in bad taste, Hemingway.

As it stands, thousands of innocent people died in a terrorist agenda that does not recognize the difference between combatants, civilians or children by people who believed in a religion that gives you an auto-ticket to heaven.  The same arguement can be said about the Crusades when Pope Urban II cried out "God Wills It" and "Remission of Sins".

Im disgusted with the whole idea of state religion. None of the Preachers practice their preaching, or it seems like. So much dogma has been created through different sects and splits that it's hard to tell where the original ends and the twist begins.

Personally, I would rather it not go up near Ground Zero. Same as a church, shrine, plynth, cairn, what-have-you.  With posters above, it is an instigating and imflammatory gesture and in the mainstream, if your *not* behind it your dubbed a racist, extremist, or other bulls**t remark.

But what do I know? Im just Joe Average trying to get ahead and make the dirtball better for the next guy down the line...

[Hemingway]

Indeed it would be in bad taste, Hemingway.

Don't get me wrong, I agree.

Consider it from the point of view of the average right-leaning, patriotic, Christian American, though. You know, the ones Sarah Palin thinks of as "real America". I somehow can't help but feel that for the majority of them, a church would seem perfectly acceptable. Perhaps they'd have an easier time accepting that whoever was building the church were not the same people who attacked the building.

As for the crusades, I believe I heard that mentioned in this context. Someone asking about building churches in the quote-unquote Holy Land. But never mind that.

It just seems to me that if we want to move forward, this is the right way of doing it.

[TheScarletBlade]

I'm not a Muslim, but this is a roleplaying forum so...

Are you trying to tell me, an american muslim, that i hate the west and even if i don't support overt violence, i'm somehow enabling or supporting the actions of these very extreme radicals?

It must be so simple and carefree, seeing the world so black and white.

If your not standing against it,you might as well be supporting it. Look at the Taliban's number four guy, he was born in Orange County, lived here in America for 22 years and then one day just buys a ticket to Afghanistan, buys an Ak and joins the Jihad, becoming an invaluable tool for insight into America for the Taliban.

and for whoever said Afghanistan is not the muslim world, well you definitely are correct here, Al Quida is in Hong Kong, The Phillipines, Indonesia, Australia, Europe and America, I guess thats why its a GLOBAL war on Terror.

It is pretty simple to live in world so black and white, least that way you know who your enemy is.

[Jude]

1)  I don't think that people who disagree with it being built are racists.  Since when does following the Islamic faith make you a part of a particular race?  There are Islamic individuals of every race throughout the world, it's become a global religion with pockets of Islamic culture sprouting not just in Africa and the Middle East (which are two distinctly different racial demographics in some parts), but also in Asia and the United States (by immigration).

2)  Having said that, I still think it's wrong to be against an entire religion categorically, and therefore oppose anything related to it.  Each individual religious sect and political unit must be taken on its merits.  There are Islamic factions which are completely peaceful, there are others which are unjustly militant, and others still who I am somewhat sympathetic to due to the circumstances of their existence and the cause they fight for.  Lumping them all together with Al Qaede (which is one organization that I'm sure we can all agree is fits the label of terrorist) is not fair or justified.

3)  I still think it might be in poor taste and counterproductive for a Mosque to built near ground zero.  Whether their opinions are justified or not, a lot of people do feel resentment against the entire religion for what the hijackers did, and this move is not going to change that.  If anything, it will make them resent the Islamic religion even more.  If Muslims want to apologize for what extremists did, there are better ways to do so that won't push their agenda in a way that will face a violent backlash.  With the way France recently banned headdresses for Muslim women in public, the last thing that social conservatives in America need added motivation and ammunition to get the same law passed here.

4)  Regardless of what I said there, I think if there's an open piece of property and a private citizen owns the land, they have the right to choose to sell it for whatever purposes they wish.  This doesn't mean I'm going to agree with it ultimately, I may think it's counterproductive, but I have to respect the right people have to do what they want with their property as long as it isn't breaking any laws.  It strikes me as very odd that the very same conservatives who decry government encroachment on individual liberty are complaining about what is being done with private property here.  If they want to build a church, you can disagree all you want, but applying pressure or outright force to stop that is downright hypocritical.

5)  I would like to see some sort of Muslim organization reach out to Americans in a reconciliatory fashion; not because they have to apologize for what members of their religion did (because they don't, Al Qaede is in a completely different denomination really, it'd be like holding Baptists accountable for what the Pope does), but simply to distance themselves from that radical element.

Lets face it, ultimately the West has done quite a bit to anger the Muslim world, and the Muslim world has done quite a bit to anger the west.  Until both sides will admit that they've made mistakes and we compromise, there will be no progress made towards peace between the two.  Extremism in favor of either side is why the Israel-Palestine situation isn't anywhere closer to resolution all of these years later, and it's also why the Muslim religion isn't moderating itself.  You have to meet people halfway, and most Western Countries--especially neo-conservatives in the United States--aren't willing to do so when it comes to the Muslim World.

[Lithos]

Putting anything religious to site of such importance would be quite short sighted.

[Nyarly]

Putting anything religious to site of such importance would be quite short sighted.

I don't think it's a good idea either. Nevermind if it is a mosque or a church. There are just some... Unfortunate implications, and somebody is bound to take it the wrong way.

[Trieste]

I think I'm going to edit the thread title when I get back to my laptop, to make it clearer that the mosque is not ON ground zero, but NEAR it. Poor choice of wording on my part.

@crimson Scarlet (sorry): You are sounding like an extremist, yourself. "If you're not with us, you're against us"? You sound like an impressionable 20-year-old fresh out of an overseas tour, spouting hyperbole, absolutism and ultimatums he learned from Basic. Please, calm down, take a step back, and debate intellectually, not emotionally. That is what this forum is for, and what this thread is for.

[NotoriusBEN]

yea, palin is... out there on the other side of the field as well.
Im pretty sure whoever wants to build that mosque has good intentions, but it's still in bad taste. Better to leave it lie and be done with it.

It's part of why I think no religious thing should be put near GZ.

As an analogue,

Forgiveness is something that is pretty hard to give, even if it was from bad apples in the bunch. I had a Granddad that fought in Europe in WWII and he had a hard time forgiving Germans. He wasnt a hate-monger, he lost a lot of good friends he grew up with in Europe. He didnt care to be in the same room with a native of Germany. It wasnt until a couple years before his death that he really forgave the People for what the State made them do.

but that was him, not the mainstream...

and I think Jude pretty much hit the nail on the head as well.