Jesus Camp

[FM]

Has anybody else seen this documentary?  I saw it maybe a few weeks ago...I think it's a bit sad.

All I have to say about it is, "Poor kids."

[The Overlord]

Link? Book? Movie? 'Reality' TV?

[HairyHeretic]

Some sort of evangelical christian summer camp.

Haven't seen it, but haven't heard pleasent things about it either.

[FM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

I consider it a horror movie.

[RubySlippers]

I saw it reminds of what Muslim radicals are doing with children.

[FM]

I saw it reminds of what Muslim radicals are doing with children.

Every religion has it's sect of wackos.  The people depicted in Jesus Camp don't seem like Christians to me.  Lots of references to the things the apostles and whatnot said, but no references to the messages of peace and whatnot that Jesus said.

[Mnemaxa]

People like this give a bad name to the word 'faith'.

[The Overlord]

I saw it reminds of what Muslim radicals are doing with children.

Going to have to second this. "take back America for Christ." This line in particular bothers me, and can be interpreted more than one way, IMO each is in succeeding order of unpleasant.

Personally I don't have a real problem with putting my gun to heads of crusading Christians, if it came down to it.

[sciurindae]

People like this give a bad name to the word 'faith'.

*nodding* This is why I tend to try to view faith as separate though possibly synergistic with (organized) religion

One can have faith in something without organized religion, and one can have religion without faith. . .

Or to take another spin: intrinsic vs extrinsic religiosity

Basically what we see here is extrinsic religiosity (aka 'religion as a means'(rather than an end)).  Which, among other things, correlates with a heightened tendency for prejudice.  In other words what we see here is 'hollow inside', using religion as a construct to justify and excuse their actions and hatreds.  Their beliefs are independent of Christianity and would be the same even if they claimed another religion as a 'shell', much the same as Muslim fanatics.  When you get right down to it Christian and muslim fanatics both have more in common with each other than with either of the religions they are using as a 'shell'.

[Mathim]

At first I thought it was about a camp where they try to 'convert' gay boys like that South Park episode...but I heard about this before, from a co-worker. Pretty messed up stuff.

This reminds me of a small poster I saw back in high school. I don't know the full poem but it went something like this:

First they came for the pagans. And I did not speak up because I was not a pagan.
Next they came for the Jews. And I did not speak up because I was not Jewish.
Then they came for the Catholics. And I did not speak up because I was a protestant.
And when they came for me, there was no one to speak for me.

This is really all about a group mentality. I really have to wonder if most of these people really believe they're doing the right thing, or if they're just going along because their friends and neighbors are doing it and they don't want to be 'outed' as an unbeliever or something. Using fear to rally people to them even if they don't believe in it. It's like when I was a kid...I was tormented horribly but I never started attacking others. I did not want to become what I hated and feared. Some people just can't resist that, the power that becoming wicked grants. No matter how many they trample in the process (especially those they supposedly care about.)

[HairyHeretic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists,
And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists,
And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews,
And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . .
And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

[Mathim]

No, the one I read was distinctly different because I know for certain it mentioned a difference between two Christian-based religions at the end. But it had the same gist, yes. My teacher probably edited it, though that sounds stupid because you'd think the fewer religious differences on paper there were, the more the school would approve of it; they're really ornery about that stuff.

But it makes sense, right? People are probably just going along with it or not speaking out against it even though they're in the same sort of religion and don't believe in that. It's a crying shame the kids aren't given a choice about that. My uncle is a prime example of someone who is totally warped by this kind of religious brainwashing.

[HairyHeretic]

There is some discussion over the exact text of that poem. One version has the line before 'they came for me' being 'they came for the catholics', but the one I posted seems to be the most common one.

Its been taken and modified with any number of groups, so its entirely possible the version you heard was somewhat different to the one I posted.

[Mathim]

Ah, I see then. Cool beans. I'm just surprised the one with religious differences was allowed to be posted at a public school like my high school.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Having been around many Christians in my life, I can say that the kind of asshattery in that movie is uncommon, but does in fact exist.

[FM]

The movie is a good example of how Islam isn't the only religion with a fundamentalist nutty sect.

[Cecily]

The movie is a good example of how Islam isn't the only religion with a fundamentalist nutty sect.

Pretty much every religion has a fundamentalist nutty sect, unless it's very small, or if it's like scientology which is just packed full with whack jobs.

Anyway, about the documentary. I saw it years ago, and it was up for an Oscar but it was a good year for documentaries so the Inconvenient Truth won instead, of course. I think it's a very well made movie, even if it is a little disturbing. I highly recommend it! :)

[DefectiveTurret]

My father was (and probably still is) a very devout Christian. It is a good thing that he has something to believe in. It is NOT a good thing, however, to try to force his beliefs onto our family. For many horrible, traumatizing years, he verbally and emotionally abused my mother, manipulating my sister and I into going to church and telling us that our mother was evil for not believing in god. He would go to church every Sunday, Bible study every Wednesday (and would drag me to it as well), and any church event that needed his help. He spent most of his time preparing for lessons, as he taught Sunday school at our church. He wouldn't, however, take a minute to help my mother carry the heavy groceries from the car. She sprained her wrist this way, struggling to take care of the kids while my father did nothing but pour his time and our money into church.

It nearly ended in divorce. I still remember sobbing, begging my mother not to leave us. I remember promising to be a good kid from then on if she stayed. She did end up staying, but from then on, she was broken and submissive, afraid to provoke my father.

I know not all Christians are like this. I know that Christianity has its good points (all religions do, I'm sure). I even tried to be a good Christian myself. I found that it was not for me, though. For now, my opinion on Christianity is still mixed. But I am sure of one thing: I will never, never try to force my beliefs onto others.

Now I am wondering... why can't more people realize this?

[The Overlord]

My father was (and probably still is) a very devout Christian. It is a good thing that he has something to believe in. It is NOT a good thing, however, to try to force his beliefs onto our family. For many horrible, traumatizing years, he verbally and emotionally abused my mother, manipulating my sister and I into going to church and telling us that our mother was evil for not believing in god. He would go to church every Sunday, Bible study every Wednesday (and would drag me to it as well), and any church event that needed his help. He spent most of his time preparing for lessons, as he taught Sunday school at our church. He wouldn't, however, take a minute to help my mother carry the heavy groceries from the car. She sprained her wrist this way, struggling to take care of the kids while my father did nothing but pour his time and our money into church.

It nearly ended in divorce. I still remember sobbing, begging my mother not to leave us. I remember promising to be a good kid from then on if she stayed. She did end up staying, but from then on, she was broken and submissive, afraid to provoke my father.

I know not all Christians are like this. I know that Christianity has its good points (all religions do, I'm sure). I even tried to be a good Christian myself. I found that it was not for me, though. For now, my opinion on Christianity is still mixed. But I am sure of one thing: I will never, never try to force my beliefs onto others.

Now I am wondering... why can't more people realize this?

I've known people like this, to the point that they disturb you with their level of devoutness. It's like eiree mind-control or something, and why I go through life with perhaps a little ego that nobody owns my brain except for me.

There's a reason I speak out loudly on religion, people like this piss me off hardcore.

An aunt of mine got screwed up in a cult in the Portland area back in the 80’s, now she’s gone all Christian but she’s of the Orthodox Easily Offended Christian sect, she’s gone batty with some of her statements. Having grown up in a Catholic setting, but having cast all that off as the refuse it is over twenty years ago, I always laugh now how they all scramble to get to church each Sunday and not miss one. Like they're fracking Marlboro miles or something, and if you get perfect attendance you're going to get a front row seat in heaven.


Frack that crap. I often say people take their religion far too seriously. But if you tell them that they go into a frenzy, as if you just dropped 50 pounds of ground meat into a swimming pool of sharks.


Smells like irony.  :)

[JMadame]

What to say? Hmmm...
I have never seen the movie but I have seen many things like this in my life. I was raised as and consider myself to still be a "Christian", whatever that means. I believe in God, but do things my way.

And I can see many sides on many of these points of views. But I am the kind of person that accepts everybody for who and what they are. I don't try to change them, I just let myself love them. That's just how I work, and I personally believe that that is how God and Jesus meant for us to work. God doesn't love someone any less because they don't go to church , or they love somebody of the same sex, or they don't even know who he is. There are no limitations.

But I am sure of one thing: I will never, never try to force my beliefs onto others.

Now I am wondering... why can't more people realize this?

I agree with you on this one. If a lot of people, in a lot of religions realized this it would be a good thing, we would have a lot less war and suicide and a lot more acceptance. Then again I think that they are even a lot of people that don't really have any religious beliefs but force their ideas, whatever they may be about, on other people. That just sucks in general.

The one major difference between certain religions mentioned in this thread and chritianity is that most, along the christian lines, don't teach that killing someone is the answer. Now laying down your life for somebody else is the ultimate form of love, but not killing people, including yourself. And other religions say that killing people is the best, if not, the only way. I am not sure.

Now I don't know much about many of the religions mentioned, I just know what I believe and how I feel. I think that buddhism is really the best and most peaceful religion out there. ;)

Hehe, sorry that this has nothing to so with the movie really. I hope it's ok?

[Oniya]

My father was (and probably still is) a very devout Christian. It is a good thing that he has something to believe in. It is NOT a good thing, however, to try to force his beliefs onto our family. For many horrible, traumatizing years, he verbally and emotionally abused my mother, manipulating my sister and I into going to church and telling us that our mother was evil for not believing in god. He would go to church every Sunday, Bible study every Wednesday (and would drag me to it as well), and any church event that needed his help. He spent most of his time preparing for lessons, as he taught Sunday school at our church. He wouldn't, however, take a minute to help my mother carry the heavy groceries from the car. She sprained her wrist this way, struggling to take care of the kids while my father did nothing but pour his time and our money into church.

It nearly ended in divorce. I still remember sobbing, begging my mother not to leave us. I remember promising to be a good kid from then on if she stayed. She did end up staying, but from then on, she was broken and submissive, afraid to provoke my father.

I know not all Christians are like this. I know that Christianity has its good points (all religions do, I'm sure). I even tried to be a good Christian myself. I found that it was not for me, though. For now, my opinion on Christianity is still mixed. But I am sure of one thing: I will never, never try to force my beliefs onto others.

Now I am wondering... why can't more people realize this?

I am also no longer Christian, not due to any trauma, but because I found a Path that 'clicked' for me.  I have made a point of reading as many teachings as I can get my hands on, however, including the Bible (including some of the Apocrypha), bits of the Koran, and the Book of Mormon.  Sometimes, when the religion pushers come to my door, I find I can hold my own on the Biblical knowledge front (not so good on the others).

There are many passages in the Bible where the authors talk about people like your father - people who put themselves forward as 'pious' in public, but then treat their family like crap.  The one that comes to mind is Matthew 25:40 (had to look it up) 'Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me.' followed a few verses later by 'Whatever you neglected to do unto one of the least of these, you neglected to do unto me.' 

Like my husband says, read the 'red words' and you get a completely different impression of things.  The widow giving two cents is more pious than the wealthy men giving out of their largess.  The Samaritan tending to the wounded traveler is more pious than the churchman hurrying to temple.  Those that do nasty things in the name of any religion simply stain the image of their faith, where those that do good things just because they are good will make any group they are with look better.

[DefectiveTurret]

Frack that crap. I often say people take their religion far too seriously. But if you tell them that they go into a frenzy, as if you just dropped 50 pounds of ground meat into a swimming pool of sharks.

Yeah, I'm wondering how they get so brainwashed. My father was a nice family-type guy until he joined the First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley. Somehow, something they did there screwed him up. He's really not the type to fall for ... I don't know, blind faith I guess is what I'd call it. He's actually pretty skeptical. One thing I did notice, though, was this one woman named Patty who kept flirting with him-- even in front of my mother, who had gone to church for his sake. I'm suspecting that was why he wanted to teach Sunday school since Patty worked there as a teacher.

My general philosophy: if you try your best to be a good person and to help out others whenever you can (within reason of course), you will be happy with yourself and others will treat you kindly as well. I think most religions are based on this.

[DefectiveTurret]

Then again I think that they are even a lot of people that don't really have any religious beliefs but force their ideas, whatever they may be about, on other people. That just sucks in general.

That's very true. I don't think most people are douche-y enough to do so, though. Friends argue about their points of view all the time, but it's not to the point that someone gets hurt. Generally. People just really need to learn where the limits are. Freedom of thought and opinions: respect it.

"Like my husband says, read the 'red words' and you get a completely different impression of things."

I was also sent to a Christian school for many years, and although I highly disliked the Bible-toting and the blind faith, I did learn how to be a better person. It did make me more considerate. Most religions are pretty great... minus the violence and all that crap. I would really like to find something to believe in.

[overfiend87]

It sounds more satanic than a friendly christian camp. Mostly because of these: "Kids on Fire" "Devil's lake" and "Army of God" it all sounds very...satanic and is very weird. The only thing I liked about the girl is she doesn't look up to Britany Spears or Lindsy Lohan.

[Stattick]

I believe Sarah Palin is a Pentacostalist. As a matter of fact, I remember reading that her church has been linked to Dominionists and Joel's Army, a radicalized sect of Christianity that believes that we are living in the end times, and the time for them to rise up and take over the governments of the world by force and to force everyone to either convert to thier brand of Christianity or die is almost upon us. Apparently, they are uncertain if they they're supposed to be given thier Jehovah granted super powers before or after they rise up against the evil world.

Dominionism
Joel's Army

[Nessy]

I believe Sarah Palin is a Pentacostalist. As a matter of fact, I remember reading that her church has been linked to Dominionists and Joel's Army, a radicalized sect of Christianity that believes that we are living in the end times, and the time for them to rise up and take over the governments of the world by force and to force everyone to either convert to thier brand of Christianity or die is almost upon us. Apparently, they are uncertain if they they're supposed to be given thier Jehovah granted super powers before or after they rise up against the evil world.

Dominionism
Joel's Army

I'm all for disliking Sarah Palin, but this sounds over-the-top even for her. Various media try to link politicians, celebreties, anyone in the lime light to a lot of things, and they'll use the loosest connection they can find. Remember the whole Ayers thing. I am not going to stoop to their level, and it's not necessary. She comes off very poorly to people who don't share her belief's as it is. And by share her belief's, I don't just mean people who aren't Christian's, I am referring to the entire intolerant package.

[Serephino]

I saw clips of that, and it was disturbing to say the least.  They were telling kids to be prepared to give their lives for God!  Somehow, I don't think that's what God intended.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion for this reason.  All throughout history Christians have been preaching that it's their way or burn in hell for all eternity.  I came across a bumper sticker that said; it's your hell, you burn in it; and that's pretty much how I feel.

I'm a firm believer in exposing kids to many different kinds of religions and letting them decide for themselves.  Choosing what to believe in is a personal choice and no one has the right to decide for someone else. 

I was raised Christian, but I left the church because there were a few things I didn't agree with.  I have no problem with other religions, just don't try to shove it down my throat please. 

[Nessy]

I saw clips of that, and it was disturbing to say the least.  They were telling kids to be prepared to give their lives for God!  Somehow, I don't think that's what God intended.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion for this reason.  All throughout history Christians have been preaching that it's their way or burn in hell for all eternity.  I came across a bumper sticker that said; it's your hell, you burn in it; and that's pretty much how I feel.

I'm a firm believer in exposing kids to many different kinds of religions and letting them decide for themselves.  Choosing what to believe in is a personal choice and no one has the right to decide for someone else. 

I was raised Christian, but I left the church because there were a few things I didn't agree with.  I have no problem with other religions, just don't try to shove it down my throat please.

And it is also the right of parents to expand or limit their exposure to what they think is right. The kind of choosing you are talking about is something young adults should begin to choose for themselves not children. I am all for protecting children as a society but the last thing people need are backseat parents.

[Serephino]

Not forcing a child to be a Christian is not backseat parenting.  It both annoys and saddens me to see a child be taken to Church and told if they don't follow God they're going to hell.  I hate that organized religion uses fear as a motivation.  I've never taken well to being intimidated.

I'm not saying it's wrong to take a child to church, but don't brainwash them for crying out loud.  Encourage them to ask questions, and don't get upset if they want to learn more about another religion.  Expose them to different things so that when they are a young adult they can decide for themselves.  Guiding a child and answering questions is what being a responsible parent is.

I have read so many sad stories of people who grew up in strict Christian house holds, and when they decided to follow another path they were disowned.  Why can't all religions just get along?  Hell, part of what confuses me is Christians, Jews, and Muslims all came from Abraham and follow the same God, yet they're constantly fighting with each other.... WTF....  It's just nuts!

It wouldn't hurt for parents to educate themselves either.  There are so many misconceptions floating around out there.  What you view as dangerous may not be.  A lot of Christians I've talked to hate stereotypes about the nuts like the people at Jesus Camp, but a lot seem to forget that other religious stereotypes are just as untrue. 

[Rhapsody]

It wouldn't hurt for parents to educate themselves either.  There are so many misconceptions floating around out there.  What you view as dangerous may not be.  A lot of Christians I've talked to hate stereotypes about the nuts like the people at Jesus Camp, but a lot seem to forget that other religious stereotypes are just as untrue.

I was raised Roman Catholic, right up until after my Confirmation when I was in grade 8 and I decided that maybe being an evil sinning little bastard who was forever unworthy of being in the presence of God just wasn't for me. I know that's not all the religion is about, but that's about all I took away from it, and it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.  It's the kind of old-fashioned Irish family I was raised in: I love my grandparents dearly, but I chewed my nan a new orifice when she told me that she didn't really consider me married because I chose to have a civil ceremony officiated by a justice of the peace instead of a big church wedding with all the restrictions thereof.

I consider myself an agnostic nowadays, and I'm generally tolerant towards other religions, so long as their members aren't trying to shove dogma down my throat.  And as such, I refused to have my kids baptised in the Catholic faith, even though my grandparents in particular were expecting it.  It's how I was raised, after all, so I must want my kids to go to heaven too.   But I don't feel like I have the authority to choose for them something as personal as faith.  If, when they get older and can make an informed decision that's best for their minds and souls, they choose to be Catholic, then that's fine.  I'll just ban religion from the dinner table. :P

And honestly?  It isn't the "faith" part most people take issue with. It's the way those faiths are sometimes acted upon, also known as "religion". 

[Oniya]

I'll just ban religion from the dinner table. :P

I was always taught that it wasn't polite to discuss religion, politics or money at the dinner table. ;) And that was from Roman Catholic parents.

[Inkidu]

I was always taught that it wasn't polite to discuss religion, politics or money at the dinner table. ;) And that was from Roman Catholic parents.

Don't forget sex.

[Serephino]

And honestly?  It isn't the "faith" part most people take issue with. It's the way those faiths are sometimes acted upon, also known as "religion".

The way I see it, when you're on your death bed, which is inevitable for all of us, you're going to be alone.  If you've been a good little Christian because you were told you had to, how secure are you going to be? 

One of the reasons a lot of people can't go through with suicide or are afraid of death is because they're afraid of the unknown.  They've been preached to all their lives about God, yet they're still unsure.  Someone else's faith isn't going to help you when you're facing your own mortality. 

And Rhapsody, you're not alone.  I too took from the Christian faith that we're all unworthy sinners that need to be forgiven and saved.  I said screw that.  I also think it's bullshit that you can be a rotten, lying cheating asshole all of your life but if you find Christ before you die you'll be saved and enter Heaven; but if you spend your life trying to be a good person but don't accept Christ you'll go to Hell.  That's a pill I just can't swallow. 

I'm not an Atheist though.  I still believe in God, I just don't follow mainstream Christianity.  I have faith and I'm very secure in it.  I'm not going to go stand in front of a bus or anything, and I do have a will to live, but I'm not afraid.  I did a little soul searching and came to my own conclusions rather than have someone else tell me what the truth is, and I'm happier for it. 

[Oniya]

Don't forget sex.

As far as they were concerned, that wasn't polite to discuss ever.  ;D

Thankfully, they weren't the types that wouldn't sign the 'Health Ed' permission slips.

[Rhapsody]

As far as they were concerned, that wasn't polite to discuss ever.  ;D

Man, I wish that had been my mom.  When I hit mid-teens, she started talking to me about her sex life.  Not graphic details or anything -- I'd still be in therapy -- but because she wasn't satisfied and really didn't have anyone else to talk to about it. >.<

[Nessy]

Not forcing a child to be a Christian is not backseat parenting.  It both annoys and saddens me to see a child be taken to Church and told if they don't follow God they're going to hell.  I hate that organized religion uses fear as a motivation.  I've never taken well to being intimidated.

Well you show me the "perfect" way to raise a child, and I will show you an example of a murderer that came from that type of family. There is no perfect way to raise a child, and if a parent wants to take a child to church, let them.It is their child, not ours. A lot of churches do not threaten children with hell. Your experience is yours and I certainly won't question it but it saddens and annoys me when others think their parenting skills are so great they should have the power to dicated how other parents raise their kids. When the child begins to become an adult, they have a choice and they think for themselves. If at that point the parents force them into a religion, then society might have reason for concern and raise a voice.

edit: I just wanted to add, I understand the concern. It's a legitmate concern after all, but society isn't going to be the one that is pulling its hair out when things go south with a child. I've seen friends grow up in very religious households do well and go south, and I've seen friends who were raised in households without it and have the same result. Parenting is not a cookie cutter approach, and I just don't think I have any right to tell someone how to raise their kid when I am not going to be the one dealing with much of the consequence or the guilt, or the pride or anything else a parent feels watching their, keyword their here, child grow.

[Serephino]

If you would have paid attention at all I said I'm not against a parent taking a child to church, but rather a parent making a child think they must follow that religion or else.  I never said I have perfect parenting skills, nor am I trying to dictate what parents do.  I've been giving my opinions along with everyone else.  Please stop putting words in my mouth. 

[Nessy]

If you would have paid attention at all I said I'm not against a parent taking a child to church, but rather a parent making a child think they must follow that religion or else.  I never said I have perfect parenting skills, nor am I trying to dictate what parents do.  I've been giving my opinions along with everyone else.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.

No need to get all defensive, and you don't get to control how I interrupt what you wrote. You are welcome to clairfy your position but when you do it in the manner you are, I am not likely going to listen. You talked about children being forced to be christian. Taking a child to church is certainly an attempt to lead them into the christian faith. You also said it "annoys and saddens you to see a child be taken to Church" which implies you don't think children should be taken to church. Those are choices a parent makes, and if you think they are not okay, then that implies you think that whatever brand of parenting you support most is the only good one. I am simply stating there is no perfect parenting manual you can find to make 100% sure a child turns out to be a boon to society instead of a problem. And if someone else dictates how children are raised, other than their parents, they aren't going to be the one devastated when the child kills themselves their senior year in high school, or shoots a fellow student as a young adult, or wraps their car around a telephone pole in the middle of the night in a drunken stupor. Religion isn't the enemy, and it isn't necessarily the answer. Parenting is a set of choices and ideas. These crazy Jesus camp things are certainly alarming but they're less about religion and more about control if you actually pay attention to what is going on there.

[Oniya]

Please read - this is a debate forum, not a flame forum.

Let's not make it so that the staff gets ticked at us, guys.  I think we can all agree that there are some serious nut-jobs out there, as well as a lot of good people of every faith, and none of us here want to raise our children to be little sociopaths.

[Inkidu]

The way I see it, when you're on your death bed, which is inevitable for all of us, you're going to be alone.  If you've been a good little Christian because you were told you had to, how secure are you going to be? 

One of the reasons a lot of people can't go through with suicide or are afraid of death is because they're afraid of the unknown.  They've been preached to all their lives about God, yet they're still unsure.  Someone else's faith isn't going to help you when you're facing your own mortality. 

And Rhapsody, you're not alone.  I too took from the Christian faith that we're all unworthy sinners that need to be forgiven and saved.  I said screw that.  I also think it's bullshit that you can be a rotten, lying cheating asshole all of your life but if you find Christ before you die you'll be saved and enter Heaven; but if you spend your life trying to be a good person but don't accept Christ you'll go to Hell.  That's a pill I just can't swallow. 

I'm not an Atheist though.  I still believe in God, I just don't follow mainstream Christianity.  I have faith and I'm very secure in it.  I'm not going to go stand in front of a bus or anything, and I do have a will to live, but I'm not afraid.  I did a little soul searching and came to my own conclusions rather than have someone else tell me what the truth is, and I'm happier for it.

“Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.”--Psalm 23:4

I'm not dying alone.

[Nessy]

Please read - this is a debate forum, not a flame forum.

Let's not make it so that the staff gets ticked at us, guys.  I think we can all agree that there are some serious nut-jobs out there, as well as a lot of good people of every faith, and none of us here want to raise our children to be little sociopaths.

I can agree with that.

[HairyHeretic]

Religion and politics are two topics that can deteriorate very fast. If people can keep calm, and realise that a difference of opinion is not a personal attack, then they can make for some very interesting debates.

Staff will only step in if and when needed.

[purpleartemis00]

I just made a double feature of it with "Jesus Camp" and "Religulous." I usually hate Bill Maher, but this one wasn't bad.

I have to look at places like the camp those children attended and think "Organized religion breeds whack-jobs and hypocrisy." I grew up in a situation very similar to the churches that those children attended and was disgusted at every turn. I remember reading every book about religion that I could get my hands on, searching for some religion where the followers didn't find a whole bag of crazy and wallow about in it like flea dip.

And I found nothing. For the most part, organized religion is insane. I'm not just talking about the wacky offshoots, no. Catholics (najor organized denomination of Christianity) believe that the bread and wine is actually Christ blood and body as they take communion.

Mormons believe that special underwear will keep you safe from knives and fire.

Orthodox Jews believe that the war in Jerusalem will be decided when God finds them worthy of the nation of Israel.

Muslims believe that Muhammed actually preaches peace and condemns infidels in the same book.

Hindus and Buddhists believe that a earthworm could be old aunt Mildred.

Organized religion does not value sanity as a quality in its believers.

[Inkidu]

I just made a double feature of it with "Jesus Camp" and "Religulous." I usually hate Bill Maher, but this one wasn't bad.

I have to look at places like the camp those children attended and think "Organized religion breeds whack-jobs and hypocrisy." I grew up in a situation very similar to the churches that those children attended and was disgusted at every turn. I remember reading every book about religion that I could get my hands on, searching for some religion where the followers didn't find a whole bag of crazy and wallow about in it like flea dip.

And I found nothing. For the most part, organized religion is insane. I'm not just talking about the wacky offshoots, no. Catholics (najor organized denomination of Christianity) believe that the bread and wine is actually Christ blood and body as they take communion.

Mormons believe that special underwear will keep you safe from knives and fire.

Orthodox Jews believe that the war in Jerusalem will be decided when God finds them worthy of the nation of Israel.

Muslims believe that Muhammed actually preaches peace and condemns infidels in the same book.

Hindus and Buddhists believe that a earthworm could be old aunt Mildred.

Organized religion does not value sanity as a quality in its believers.

A very superficial and narrow explaination.

[Zakharra]

A very superficial and narrow explaination.

*sage nod* An extremely narrow view of it.

[purpleartemis00]

I think you mistake me. I did not form any opinions based on either of the two films. I merely watched them for the entertainment value, or in Jesus Camp's place the carthatic value.

My opinions are drawn from studying and reading about these many religions. I have studied the Bible (King James and a few other translations), the Torah, the Quran, the Way to End Suffering (a Buddhist text that outlines the tenants of the religion), the Bhagavad gita and the Book of Mormon.

On the whole when the facts are so very laughable, it is hard to draw a very balanced conclusion. The conclusion drawn from this many year study was that organized religion= insane. Spirituality is a whole other thing entirely and does not in even come into play with many organized religions.

I fail to see the good done by institutions that have driven people to violence against each other repeatedly. Also, magic underwear... really?

[Nessy]

A very superficial and narrow explaination.

Well said.

[Inkidu]

I think you mistake me. I did not form any opinions based on either of the two films. I merely watched them for the entertainment value, or in Jesus Camp's place the carthatic value.

My opinions are drawn from studying and reading about these many religions. I have studied the Bible (King James and a few other translations), the Torah, the Quran, the Way to End Suffering (a Buddhist text that outlines the tenants of the religion), the Bhagavad gita and the Book of Mormon.

On the whole when the facts are so very laughable, it is hard to draw a very balanced conclusion. The conclusion drawn from this many year study was that organized religion= insane. Spirituality is a whole other thing entirely and does not in even come into play with many organized religions.

I fail to see the good done by institutions that have driven people to violence against each other repeatedly. Also, magic underwear... really?

From the list of things you listed off, I think you need to reread some of that.

[Oniya]

All generalities are false.  It also might be worthwhile to look over the sticky at the top of this forum while phrasing your arguments, for optimal effectiveness.

[HairyHeretic]

Purple, while you may not care for religion, it is important to many people, so a little more polite phrasing won't go amiss.

[Inkidu]

All generalities are false.  It also might be worthwhile to look over the sticky at the top of this forum while phrasing your arguments, for optimal effectiveness.

Generalizations aren't necessarily false as they are not true enough. :)

[Oniya]

Ah, but I said 'All generalities are false', which is itself a generality.   ;D  Just a little semantics-class humor.

[purpleartemis00]

From the list of things you listed off, I think you need to reread some of that.

Not so much. Each of the things listed is a documented fact of the mainstream sect or denomination I was referring to. The documentation can be found in holy books from each religion and in studies by scholars of that religion. Sorry to come off as abrasive, but given a few days to research (in the middle of finals right now) I could give you book, chapter and verse.

All generalities are false.  It also might be worthwhile to look over the sticky at the top of this forum while phrasing your arguments, for optimal effectiveness.

I'm not sure that I was making generalities. American Heritage Dictionary defines generality as "An observation or principle having general application; a generalization" and "An imprecise or vague statement or idea."
I have explicated at length why I believe what I believe using evidence from the very books that these religions hold dear. I'm not sure how determining that organized religion is insane because it asks followers to believe in things that they would laugh at in other area of life is imprecise or vague.

Purple, while you may not care for religion, it is important to many people, so a little more polite phrasing won't go amiss.

I understand and apologize for my wording. I will be sure to use less inflammatory wording, however I find it funny that I received chastisement for my stating my beliefs, but those who referred to my beliefs as "superficial and narrow" (words I believe have a very negative connotation) were simply ignored. I've a question, if I had referred to mainstream Christianity as superficial and narrow, would you have chastised me? I think you might have. So apparently attacking an individual is fine but attacking a larger group is impermissible. Thanks, I'll be sure to amend my behavior.

[HairyHeretic]

If I were chastising you, you'd know about it. That was simply a note to keep the tone of discussion civil .. which applies to everyone, not just you .. because I know that politics and religion are subjects that can get out of hand very quickly and easily. I'd prefer not to have to come in and start smiting to ensure good behaviour, hence a polite note now.

[purpleartemis00]

If I were chastising you, you'd know about it. That was simply a note to keep the tone of discussion civil .. which applies to everyone, not just you .. because I know that politics and religion are subjects that can get out of hand very quickly and easily. I'd prefer not to have to come in and start smiting to ensure good behaviour, hence a polite note now.

Forgive me. I misunderstood, because the note stated my user-name specifically.

Let's definitely avoid all smiting! :)

[Inkidu]

Ah, but I said 'All generalities are false', which is itself a generality.   ;D  Just a little semantics-class humor.

Well I was countering with the same thing. Ah, semantic humor. ;)

[Nessy]

Not so much. Each of the things listed is a documented fact of the mainstream sect or denomination I was referring to. The documentation can be found in holy books from each religion and in studies by scholars of that religion. Sorry to come off as abrasive, but given a few days to research (in the middle of finals right now) I could give you book, chapter and verse.

While I support education in general and the knowledge obtained from books, they don't replace experience. I think its well established that how these books are interpretted varies a lot and that one church following a religion in one country doesn't necessarily reflect another church in another country just because they follow the same religion. I am using the word church as interchangeable with places of worship for other faiths.

Over time, these books have always been used to justify horrific acts AND also been used to counter them. I am quite certain that a direct quote from one of them, taken out of context, would be a misrepresentation of the current status of that organized religion. Furthermore, context is where most the problem of interpretation really lies, not the words themselves.

[purpleartemis00]

While I support education in general and the knowledge obtained from books, they don't replace experience. I think its well established that how these books are interpretted varies a lot and that one church following a religion in one country doesn't necessarily reflect another church in another country just because they follow the same religion. I am using the word church as interchangeable with places of worship for other faiths.

Over time, these books have always been used to justify horrific acts AND also been used to counter them. I am quite certain that a direct quote from one of them, taken out of context, would be a misrepresentation of the current status of that organized religion. Furthermore, context is where most the problem of interpretation really lies, not the words themselves.

I completely agree with you on interpretation being the "evil" and not the words themselves.

I guess my problem lies in the fact that the literal interpreters tend to be the most vocal groups. That may have to do with sensationalism and our current media, but it stinks, none the less.

A caveat -- historically, most large sects of mainstream religion (with the current exceptions of Buddhists and Protestant Christians) turn to violence against others as a way to disseminate their beliefs. While I do not believe that the violence sprang from the religion itself, rather than from power-hungry leaders, the followers, historically, tend to fall in line with this policy. There's so much historical evidence that LARGE GROUPS (not fundamentalists sects) used violence as a means of religious conversion that people want to disregard, because it colors their religious choices negatively.

I guess I feel that if more people involved with mainstream organized religion would (and had) voice the fact that they are uncomfortable with a groups methods, then they world would have been a much less bloodshed in the name of deities.

[Inkidu]

It's a tragedy for sure, but many things have been brought about by non-religious things. It's people. People misuse religion, science and whatever, mostly for greed. The problem isn't religion it's people. The same with the Jesus camp people.

[Nessy]

I completely agree with you on interpretation being the "evil" and not the words themselves.

I guess my problem lies in the fact that the literal interpreters tend to be the most vocal groups. That may have to do with sensationalism and our current media, but it stinks, none the less.

A caveat -- historically, most large sects of mainstream religion (with the current exceptions of Buddhists and Protestant Christians) turn to violence against others as a way to disseminate their beliefs. While I do not believe that the violence sprang from the religion itself, rather than from power-hungry leaders, the followers, historically, tend to fall in line with this policy. There's so much historical evidence that LARGE GROUPS (not fundamentalists sects) used violence as a means of religious conversion that people want to disregard, because it colors their religious choices negatively.

I guess I feel that if more people involved with mainstream organized religion would (and had) voice the fact that they are uncomfortable with a groups methods, then they world would have been a much less bloodshed in the name of deities.

See now I think what you just said now holds a lot more weight than what you started with because it explains where you are coming from and doesn't appear to be an attempt to demonize organized religions and their followers as a whole. I am sorry you felt attacked as well, it feels awful to feel personally attacked when you are trying to debate your point-of-view in a topic that is, as the moderators say, a very touchy topic. I assure you I made very little assumptions on you personally and was only regarding your statements.

I think there are problems with intepretations of the these sacred books. I think its a problem that stems from different cultures reading the same sentence in a different way, problems with translations, problems in that the people who wrote the originals are long since dead, and concerns that there might have been alerations. All of those are valid concerns.

Historically, not many cultures, religiously backed or not, got along with each other. We know that some wars were written as religious war but others were about wealth and power and land... it can be very hard to separate the two. Buddihism has a violent past. Christians, any of the sects, have a violent past. I think humanity as a whole has a violent past and a violent present.

Anyway, I have concerns with some organized religions too. I have concerns with any groups that might try and silence dissent amongst their members (religious, civil, government, whatever), and I know that its natural to want to watch the sensational over the mono-tone drones that occasionally show up on a channel like CSPAN. But my concerns do not translate to a dismissal of any group as a whole or an unwillingness to hear what they have to say.

I do think it is a disservice to refer to religion as insanity. Insane implies lack of reason, lack of purpose, no explaination. When there is no explaination then that seems to give us a license not to bother with trying to understand something we don't agree with or just can't comprehend. I also don't think understanding a group or a situation means justifying their words or actions. I think its dangerous to dismiss actions or individuals as insane unless there is truly is an actual medical issue going on with the brain.

[Torch]

It's a tragedy for sure, but many things have been brought about by non-religious things. It's people. People misuse religion, science and whatever, mostly for greed. The problem isn't religion it's people.

Yes, I agree. Three of the greatest mass murderers of the 20th century (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot) were considered, for all intents and purposes, atheists. I suppose technically, Stalin's Marxist-Leninist beliefs could be considered a form of religion, but only very loosely. Hitler's early ties to the Roman Catholic church were tenuous at best.

Certainly the over thirty million deaths attributed to these three were not committed in the name of God.

Now, does this mean that all atheists are evil? Of course not, no more than all religious extremists and zealots and fundamentalists can be considered evil.

[HairyHeretic]

Hitler is frequently trotted out as an atheist, yet there remain scores of quotes from him where he identifies himself as christian, and believes he is doing the lords work. Whether those were his true beliefs, or merely a public facade will likely never be known. If he was a christian, as he proclaimed himself to be, he was a pretty poor one.

[Inkidu]

Hitler is frequently trotted out as an atheist, yet there remain scores of quotes from him where he identifies himself as christian, and believes he is doing the lords work. Whether those were his true beliefs, or merely a public facade will likely never be known. If he was a christian, as he proclaimed himself to be, he was a pretty poor one.

Hitler's god was greed.

[Nessy]

Hitler is frequently trotted out as an atheist, yet there remain scores of quotes from him where he identifies himself as christian, and believes he is doing the lords work. Whether those were his true beliefs, or merely a public facade will likely never be known. If he was a christian, as he proclaimed himself to be, he was a pretty poor one.

Yep, we'll never know. Seems like a small step to go from mass murderer to lying about your religion.

[Torch]

Hitler is frequently trotted out as an atheist, yet there remain scores of quotes from him where he identifies himself as christian, and believes he is doing the lords work. Whether those were his true beliefs, or merely a public facade will likely never be known. If he was a christian, as he proclaimed himself to be, he was a pretty poor one.

Oh, very true, I know there are passages in Mein Kampf where he refers to "Providence" and the creation of the "Aryan Race" being God's will. But I would hazard a guess that all that was simply window dressing for his followers, as the bulk of the German population before the Nazi party came to power did consider themselves Christian, and his Fascist views would have been far harder to swallow unless they were cloaked under the guise of God's approval.

The bulk of the Nazi leadership (Goebbels, Himmler, Eichmann, et al) were avowed atheists.

[Akujin Nakaru]

I must say, this is a fairly interesting topic for discussion, and an intriguing discussion at that. Like others, I am sure, I was raised by an overbearing father who decided for my brother and I that religion, and in my specific case being Full Gospel Pentecostal, was the only way for us to live. This lifestyle opened my eyes to a lot of things that the camp in the movie mentioned at the beginning sustained. The main one being, and correct me if this is indeed wrong, that almost all religions throughout history taught the same main teachings: Their religion is the correct religion, intolerance for all other beliefs, and that those who were not part of their religion had to be converted or exterminated like pests.

To me, in my own personal view, this is in fact ironic as most religions teach about peace, love, forgiveness and acceptance yet at the same time, in the case of Christianity, teach that all non christians are wrong. So how does this indeed teach that love and forgiveness is the way? When all my life I witnessed gay bashing, of which I myself became the victim of one, and even campaigns to shut down various bars and liquors stores that helped my town's economy. And one must never think it is simply one branch of Christianity either, for it encompasses all views of the church.

Now, I shall make it plain and clear I am not bashing on any form of religion, I myself still accept there is a God and Christ because of my mother who truly showed what being a christian was like. But I do not believe in those views anymore, for I had witnessed too much corruption because of the very doctrine they teach and force down others throats, and frankly all church has really come down to now, it's simply like high school all over again, where cliques form and exclude all others while any new comers are frowned upon for any reason that can be found whether it be their dress, hair style, life choice or even body art.

[Oniya]

Oddly enough, the one thing I've found in common with most religious texts is 'be nice to each other, try to live a good life while you're here, and hope for something better after you die.'

[HairyHeretic]

Most religions, in principle, are pretty good things.

Then people get involved and it all goes downhill from there :)

[Silk]

Getting this in now, im speaking purely from a factual sense and not demonizing anyones religion.

But all of these "Holy books" have all been victims of mistranslations,(In the old testament lucifer "Morning star" was a title given to jesus, in the new testament its the devil) convienence changes from those in power, and ultimately, started as human handwriting not one religious text is "Gods words" but "humans interpreting gods words" And in my opinion should not be treated as such, because as previously stated, humans mess everything up. If it was a true "Text of gods mouth" that people mistakenly claimed i may be more willing to believe.

Now although im going to use christianity as a example but this goes for all religions as well. I cannot remember which but one of the sections of the bible was written 20-30 years after jesus apparent death. Sure ill admit being with the messiah would be pretty rememberable but how can people have such a good memory that they are able to remember practically every moment from several decades ago?

I'm personally a shaman that also has its own share of mistranslations and variants but on the most part i go with science, because it admits the unexplained but at least tries to explain it with some form of logical reasoning and because of science our entire life has skyrocketed in stregnth.



And for those who say science kills, Science saves a immense ammount more than it kills, the life expectancy has gone from 30ish to the late 80/90s thanks to science. While religion which has been a consistant killer throughout time, is a long way lacking in the physical "saving peoples lives" department. (I cannot quote for mentality saving as that is a different bowl of fish fingers alltogether)

Anyway ive tried to keep it as factual and as little of my personal opinion as possible.

[Nessy]

Getting this in now, im speaking purely from a factual sense and not demonizing anyones religion.

And for those who say science kills, Science saves a immense ammount more than it kills, the life expectancy has gone from 30ish to the late 80/90s thanks to science. While religion which has been a consistant killer throughout time, is a long way lacking in the physical "saving peoples lives" department. (I cannot quote for mentality saving as that is a different bowl of fish fingers alltogether)

Anyway ive tried to keep it as factual and as little of my personal opinion as possible.

Unless you live in Africa, in the Middle East, parts of China, the Phillipines, Mexico, India. Science isn't readily available everywhere and the life expenctancy drops like a rock depending on what part of the world you live. Life expectancy in these countries is still in the 30 to 40s and the infant mortality eye openingly bad.

Most of the religions state that the person who is writing the text is not doing so from memory but, for example, being guided by God which means it has almost nothing to do with memory. If you believe in God, and his willingness and ability to use disciples or certain chosen people, then the problem with memory is mute. The guidance alone would ensure the accuracy. The problem with claiming that facts can dispute the idea is it can't. Facts, which is often mistakenly stated as interchangeable with science is there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God so there is no way to prove or disprove that the texts were indeed written with a large amount of inaccuracies or is perfect. Its a round and round discussion, that only ends when one side decides that its perfectly okay to completely dismiss the other sides viewpoint and call it fallacy in which case the debate is not longer a debate or an argument but just a conflict that goes nowhere.

As for facts versus what exactly? Facts you read in a book, a class you took? Everyone claims their viewpoint is based on facts, and most of them are, but facts alone aren't sufficient. Facts have to be interpretted, they have to be taught, they have to be translated, they have to be believed and what you think is a fact someone else could claim is a myth.

The problem with trying to judge a religion from the outside is that many religions require a certain amount of faith. Faith isn't illogical necessarily but it's certainly not easily explained. The key is to accept other people's religions and beliefs and judge their actions, not them, not their faith, or the fact that its a religion you don't subscribe to which is where it all falls apart.

There are many religions I don't believe in, don't understand, don't agree to but I think it is pointless to setback and try and dissect that religion and claim that my so called facts are sufficient to dismiss their faith. Let them have their faith. By the way, religious war is almost never about religion at all... there is almost always something else fueling the problem underneath the surface that has nothing to do with religion, poverty, land grabs, lack of opportunities, etc. I'll judge a person by their actions, not their faith.

As for the science bit, we could easily wipe out all that we achieved with a few launches of specific missiles and bombs. Everything that science has achieved, it can also undo. For every disease that is cured, they're cooking up new weapons that create a new one. For all the lives are saved, there is a new weapon that could wipe them out in a matter of seconds. I am not an opponent of science, but I think it is misguided to praise one end of it and ignore the other.

[Silk]

As for the science bit, we could easily wipe out all that we achieved with a few launches of specific missiles and bombs. Everything that science has achieved, it can also undo. For every disease that is cured, they're cooking up new weapons that create a new one. For all the lives are saved, there is a new weapon that could wipe them out in a matter of seconds. I am not an opponent of science, but I think it is misguided to praise one end of it and ignore the other.

You mean those bombs and missiles that nobody is stupid enough to use because it would destroy the world, and even if they was used, there is plenty of counter measures in place to prevent such happening

And you mean the misguided praise one end and ignore the other that pretty much every religion in existence does "Yeah love thy neighbour but for these guys were just going to conveniently ignore that"

And my facts come from health and social care courses up to level 3 diploma level training in human relations and equality of human rights legislation's which we are also taught much about each relation as to better provide our service with. Then there is in progress first degree in psychology.

Unless you live in Africa, in the Middle East, parts of China, the Phillipines, Mexico, India. Science isn't readily available everywhere and the life expectancy drops like a rock depending on what part of the world you live. Life expectancy in these countries is still in the 30 to 40s and the infant mortality eye opening bad.

The science is in Africa and now Africa has one of the largest growing populations as they continue to keep reproducing while having sufficient life sustaining capability (Granted by no means perfect but its there) but now a family who only had 1/2 in 9 children survive is now having food and water issues now that 7/8 of those children are surviving and the food isn't readily available, Mexico i cannot quote on as i do not know, china again, issue comes from overpopulation not lack of science.

The problem with trying to judge a religion from the outside is that many religions require a certain amount of faith. Faith isn't illogical necessarily but it's certainly not easily explained.

Try looking at it from a psychoanalysis point of view where you send people who you need to send to mental clinics for far less than believing in a magical man in the sky who made everything in six days, and is afraid of dieing and going to the centre of the earth where he would rot in eternal damnation.

No faith is not allways illogical, it depends what you have faith in that makes it so.

Most of the religions state that the person who is writing the text is not doing so from memory but, for example, being guided by God which means it has almost nothing to do with memory.

Because hearing voices isn't one of the first signs of insanity.

Anyway, before i piss more people off i will state one famous quote

I do not agree with what you say, but i will die defending your right to say it.

[Nessy]

Because hearing voices isn't one of the first signs of insanity.

Anyway, before i piss more people off i will state one famous quote

I do not agree with what you say, but i will die defending your right to say it.

You began by claiming you were not out to demonize religion. It would appear that that claim may not have been accurate.

[Silk]

I never targeted religion when i said that i said "Because hearing voices isn't one of the first signs of insanity." that is alot more widespread than just religion and will not end at religion either. Trust me I do want to demonize religion but I'm not doing it at this moment in time, i am sticking to what "facts" are, hearing voices is a sign of insanity, that is a doctrines symptom of a mental instability.

Don't try to accuse me on things unless you have grounds for please.

[HairyHeretic]

Let's keep things civil folks.

[Nessy]

I never targeted religion when i said that i said "Because hearing voices isn't one of the first signs of insanity." that is alot more widespread than just religion and will not end at religion either. Trust me I do want to demonize religion but I'm not doing it at this moment in time, i am sticking to what "facts" are, hearing voices is a sign of insanity, that is a doctrines symptom of a mental instability.

Don't try to accuse me on things unless you have grounds for please.

I think when there is a lack of a certain amount of respect for those involved in a debate, for the topics of the debate, then there is a lack of communication. Without communication, what is the point of debating? You don't know my religion or lack of, my faith or lack of, my belief, or lack of. I do think your intentions to demonize and belittle religion in general was clear from your first post and verfied in this one. As for your what you call facts, I will not apply your definition of insanity to people with spiritual, religious, or other supernatural faiths simply because I don't share them. I happen to value and respect cultures not of my own.

[Valerian]

Locked to allow time for everyone to take a step back from the subject.

Edit: Unlocked. Please play nicely, kids! ~T

[Gunslinger]

Has anybody else seen this documentary?  I saw it maybe a few weeks ago...I think it's a bit sad.

All I have to say about it is, "Poor kids."

The saddest part about the whole documentary is the ones who pay the price are the kids, for the radical beliefs of their parents.

Weather you believe in god or not, you should not send your children to be trained by people who use terrorist tactics. Religion does not need soldiers it needs faith.

[Stattick]

I liked Jesus Camp.

They taught me evolution.



Oh, and we saw a massive bat hiding above the snack bar, behind a drain pipe. So using sticks and rocks, we scared it out... and it chirped, chirped, chirped, and flew around and around all mad, right above our heads, and all us little kids screamed and ran for our lives. Then everyone thought I was Satan. It was fun.  ;D

[Sabby]

I liked Jesus Camp.

They taught me evolution.



Oh, and we saw a massive bat hiding above the snack bar, behind a drain pipe. So using sticks and rocks, we scared it out... and it chirped, chirped, chirped, and flew around and around all mad, right above our heads, and all us little kids screamed and ran for our lives. Then everyone thought I was Satan. It was fun.  ;D

LOL!!! Fun times at Bible Camp, huh?

[Stattick]

LOL!!! Fun times at Bible Camp, huh?

Yep... of course they were trying to teach us how "evil"ution is wrong. Ironically, that's exactly what I thought before the course. See, I'd never actually considered the theory of evolution before then. I'd always just dismissed it without ever actually having listened. But because it was Bible camp, I actually listened for the first time, and actually considered the evolution vs creationism debate.

The teacher was quite good at presenting a fair view of evolution. As an example, they showed the evolution of horses over time, and how biologists believe that the horse slowly changed from a yappy dog sized critter to the magestic animal we know today, over the span of millions of years. And it made sense to me. I could see the progression of the skeletons over time. I could see how each form changed... the three toes eventually become just one big toe that the horse walks on... the increases and changes to the skeleton of the 10 or so skeletons they showed. It made sense. It was as if someone turned on the lightbulb over my head...

And the creationism viewpoint, the one that they were trying to force everyone to buy into, just didn't make the same kind of sense. Furthermore, their hard sell tactics backfired on them, at least in my case. "We're not leaving this room until everyone agrees that creationism is how God created the world and animals. Now, we're going to answer all of your questions, until each of you accepts the facts as they're presented in The Bible. And no one leaves until you do..." I listened very carefully to all of the questions and all of the answers. And in each instance, the evolution standpoint made more sense to me... the longer the Q&A went on, the more I was convinced that the "teachers" were full of shit, and trying to force a false viewpoint down our throats. I held my tongue, because I eventually saw that asking honest questions would only produce more dishonest propogandist responses and hard sell tactics. It was one of the most important formative events that I had at around that age. I think I was somewhere around 12 yrs old, and it was the first major instance that eventually led to me leaving the faith (Southern Baptist, an evangelical, fundamentalist, and ultimately a hate based denomination), and finding happiness with philosophies and theologies of a less hostile nature.

After returning home from Bible camp, I found out later that I was "disinvited" to attend any further Bible camps by that same organization. I was too much of a misfit for them... too rebelious... caused to many problems. Being disinvited, although it stung a little to be rejected, suited me just fine. The next few years were filled with Sunday School classes where I asked more and more pointed questions of the teachers, questioning everything. Ultimately, their Bible literalist theocracy failed on multiple fronts to hold me. By the time I was 15, I stopped going to church except for very rare instances, and I always saw a look of anxiety and nervousness on the faces of my fellow attendees and teachers on the few instances when I did attend. Apparently, they were just as uncomfortable with my questions as I was of their inability to answer them.

[Oniya]

Oh good - I thought i was the only one to get disinvited.  My 'crime' was wearing a black, Celtic trefoil T-shirt to the 'study' group, and then pointing out that this same 'three-circle devil's emblem' was embossed on the spines of the hymnals.