Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?

[Caehlim]

For some reason no one here is concerned that Muslim Population would be Wiped clean if they just Stood by and watched.

I am. This isn't to say that I believe violence is the answer, but I am certainly concerned about anyone being assaulted, harassed or oppressed because of their beliefs.

[DarkAngel111]

Everything is good in Moderation, Instead of pointing Fingers at the Belief itself, People need to start looking at a larger picture,

These books we say that are out the time period, there are things written in them that Scientists have only recently discovered.

There are also some passages written that are meant for People of That Era only, And if you read the scriptures with proper indications you will see that most of the violence mentioned in Any of the books was reffered to that era. Somethings were written as a guidance Others were written as a warning.

If one wants to Capture The Essence of Islam, I suggest you Read the Last Sermon of Prophet Muhammad, and you will see that those are the points That were important for the believers.

At many places here I was told that WBC was not hosting a army, like ISIS or taliban, the only reason for that is they have not yet had the motivation to do so. Because no matter what anyone says, Despite the terrorist threats faced today by Muslims, They are still being killed 100 to 1.

I don't see anyone getting up for their rights, I don't see any Humanitarian foundations standing up for Gaza, Or Afghanistan, or Iraq. And even if they did get up no one made a difference it was all a photo-session. To this very day muslims are being tortured without any rights in Guantanamo. How many have passed through there? 100s?, how many didn't make it through?.

I will simply bow out of this conversation for the sole reason that When you point a finger at Islam, Also look at the bigger picture, why are they getting motivated to do what they are doing?.

Pick up the 1400 year history of muslims, and except for the Era of their expansion if you can give me one period when they weren't slaughtered like dogs.

you say Violence is not the answer, then Why did the whole of Europe Rise up against Hitler?, Why is it that Even now if you wear a Nazi sign in US you will be detained and arrested?.
Some how that is justified, The Whole World war, War on Terror is justified, But a few thousand men fighting for their women and children get up to fight you Make religion the Basis of it? And Declare them terrorists?.

Religion has Nothing to do with it, It is pure human Instinct to Survive. To ensure the Survival of a Race.


I would like to point out Here, that While I do not Support ISIS Or Taliban, I do believe that they were manipulated by individuals with no pure intention. It is very Easy for anyone to turn a book into Extremist Killing guidance. Do you know In parts occupied by taliban in Pakistan they found Edited versions of the quran?, How is a 15 year old boy supposed to know that was not the real Quran?.

The Sole Point here is, Murder is never Justified Especially of an Innocent, so when you kill 1000 of theirs they get back at you and find anyone they can punish for it. They are merely an angry mob which has been mishandled from day one giving them more and more cause to fight.

Once again, I come here merely to enjoy myself and this is a conversation I would rather not engage in anymore So I would like to bow out of this.

[Caehlim]

That's fine DarkAngel, if the conversation is difficult and emotionally draining then you should feel free to bow out. Thankyou for sharing your point of view and discussing it with us.

I also didn't mean to imply that violence can never be justified or that people shouldn't defend themselves, but I think that there are better answers which perhaps we haven't found yet that can resolve these problems someday without violence.

[Sheoldred]

There are also some passages written that are meant for People of That Era only, And if you read the scriptures with proper indications you will see that most of the violence mentioned in Any of the books was reffered to that era. Somethings were written as a guidance Others were written as a warning.

How do you know? An alarming number of Muslims do not agree with you as evident by what they're doing. Can you bring out the verses from the Quran that prove this?

[DarkAngel111]

I have bowed Out of this conversation for a reason.

The reason is Personal attacks.

How do I know?, Pick the book up, the verse you keep qouting about beheading non-believers, That is Surah Anfa'l, read the Whole chapter and you will see it was revealed on the Moment of Battle of Badr, and it was for the moment only. you have on many occassions quoted a single verse out of Context. there are 50+ Verses that give you the context of that one verse.


Once Again I am asking you respectfully to leave me out of this, One more personal attack and I will start with a flurry of details that you cannot match.

I have on many occasions given you living proof of what is being done to Muslims, what you don't want to believe is that out over over 100 million Muslims if a few thousand are killing people, they do not represent the Majority.


The fact that they donot agree with the Majority of the Muslims is the problem, they are even Killing Muslims, Surely Quran does not say Kill the believers, Yet they do it? why?, because they are only following what they want to follow. Not what they are asked to follow.

[Vekseid]

Everything is good in Moderation,

This statement is false on its face. Do I even need to provide examples? How many of ISIS' more notorious antics are 'good in moderation'?

Instead of pointing Fingers at the Belief itself, People need to start looking at a larger picture,

These books we say that are out the time period, there are things written in them that Scientists have only recently discovered.

Name one.

I see a lot of Islamists promoting this false line of thinking, claiming that people of that era did not know the shape of the Earth or the nature of the Moon when in fact those matters were very clear.

There are also some passages written that are meant for People of That Era only, And if you read the scriptures with proper indications you will see that most of the violence mentioned in Any of the books was reffered to that era. Somethings were written as a guidance Others were written as a warning.

I can't find any context that absolves the passage of the Quran that I linked to. Was it somehow more right, then? Am I to trust the history of the victors? That's a tall thing to ask of a nonbeliever.

If one wants to Capture The Essence of Islam, I suggest you Read the Last Sermon of Prophet Muhammad, and you will see that those are the points That were important for the believers.

The beatitudes are also wonderful. This does not absolve the wrongs done in the name asking a god for forgiveness rather than the persons that were wronged. Good parts of any belief structure do not make the bad ones acceptable. The bad ones need to be recognized for what they are and excised.

At many places here I was told that WBC was not hosting a army, like ISIS or taliban, the only reason for that is they have not yet had the motivation to do so.

The WBC doesn't start an army because they are a trolling operation that takes advantage of the tax breaks churches get in the U.S. They're a parasite.

Because no matter what anyone says, Despite the terrorist threats faced today by Muslims, They are still being killed 100 to 1.

I don't see anyone getting up for their rights, I don't see any Humanitarian foundations standing up for Gaza, Or Afghanistan, or Iraq. And even if they did get up no one made a difference it was all a photo-session. To this very day muslims are being tortured without any rights in Guantanamo. How many have passed through there? 100s?, how many didn't make it through?.

There are powerful elements of the elite in America that wish to provoke a final apocalyptic battle between Islam and Christianity.

They get stronger with every honor killing, with every call for Sharia law, with every protest against depicting Muhammad. Many of these are crimes against individuals, and they are made human to us. Muslims rarely get that luxury.

I will simply bow out of this conversation for the sole reason that When you point a finger at Islam, Also look at the bigger picture, why are they getting motivated to do what they are doing?.

Pick up the 1400 year history of muslims, and except for the Era of their expansion if you can give me one period when they weren't slaughtered like dogs.

Seljuk and Timur come to mind.

[DarkAngel111]

Since you asked,
One discovery Science made later than the quran let me give you Several
http://www.missionislam.com/science/book.htm




When I said everything is good in Moderation I meant When it Came to Religions, Not Extremists.



Name One Surah that is for that Era? Let me give you a few.

Surah Al- Imran Ayat 166-168
What ye suffered on the day the two armies Met, was with the leave of Allah, in order that He might test the believers,-
And the Hypocrites also. These were told: "Come, fight in the way of Allah, or (at least) drive (The foe from your city)." They said: "Had we known how to fight, we should certainly have followed you." They were that day nearer to Unbelief than to Faith, saying with their lips what was not in their hearts but Allah hath full knowledge of all they conceal.
(They are) the ones that say, (of their brethren slain), while they themselves sit (at ease): "If only they had listened to us they would not have been slain." Say: "Avert death from your own selves, if ye speak the truth."

Allah did indeed fulfil His promise to you when ye with His permission Were about to annihilate your enemy,-until ye flinched and fell to disputing about the order, and disobeyed it after He brought you in sight (of the booty) which ye covet. Among you are some that hanker after this world and some that desire the Hereafter. Then did He divert you from your foes in order to test you but He forgave you: For Allah is full of grace to those who believe.
—Qur'an, sura 3 (Al-i-Imran), ayah 152

These were all Meant for that Era and were for the Battles that were being Fought, They speak against those who abandoned their brothers and in favor of those who didn't. Does not mean they apply now? does it?.

When you start poking holes into history about How you can't believe the Victors, I Have just one thing to say to you,

How do we believe, There was a Usama Bin Laden? the Victors wrote that?,
How do we believe there is a ISIS ? the powerful are writing that history too?
If you will poke holes into history like that I doubt that you can argue about this topic At all.


WBC doesn't start a war because let me tell you why, None of them have been killed despite their burning of the quran, instead they are provided Security.

Imagine a bunch of Muslims Burning Bibles in mosques and claiming all christians should be killed, leave security the army would be called upon them.



you say Seljuk and Timur

I say Antolia, Bosnia, Balkans, Gaza, Bulgaria, India, Myanmar,Russia, Afghanistan, Iraq.

And all of the Above have been Planned Governmental Attacks on wiping Clean the Muslim Populas


The Two events you Mentioned are over 1000 years old. While the scenarios Mentioned above are last 100 years for us.

[Sheoldred]

Once Again I am asking you respectfully to leave me out of this

You were entirely free to ignore the question and never look at this thread ever again. I hold no grudges against you and I do not believe I, or anyone, attacked you personally... unless your religion is such a big part of your identity.

[Vekseid]

Since you asked,
One discovery Science made later than the quran let me give you Several
http://www.missionislam.com/science/book.htm

So I read through the first several and they are a collection of outright falsehoods. Either in claiming that certain things were not known (the roundness of the Earth, the orbits and paths of stars), in claiming certain things about science (the 'explanation' of the Big Bang), in claiming to be able to interpret things as modern scientists see them (the Sun's orbit around the Earth as presented in the Quran, versus the Sun's orbit around the Galaxy as we know it. The bit about stars in their paths - and not orbits as they are - is telling), and in interpreting things in a way that no one in that Era would have (the 'expansion' of the Universe).

So, seriously. Name one. Find one that is not wishful thinking or filled with falsehoods, as many of those are, and point me to something that does not already require faith on the part of someone who sees no reason to give your book any.

When I said everything is good in Moderation I meant When it Came to Religions, Not Extremists.

The fall of religion in ancient China has a curious parallel to the rise of Christianity in Europe - they both went around ending the concept of sacrifices (as in burning offerings for various gods). This was a major economic boon - their is no point to a sacrifice, it takes and gives nothing in return.

Are burnt offerings in moderation 'good'?

These were all Meant for that Era and were for the Battles that were being Fought, They speak against those who abandoned their brothers and in favor of those who didn't. Does not mean they apply now? does it?.

Not sure if you're referring to me with that. Surah 9 appears to come some distance from Surah 3, I'm not sure how that applies.

When you start poking holes into history about How you can't believe the Victors, I Have just one thing to say to you,

How do we believe, There was a Usama Bin Laden? the Victors wrote that?,
How do we believe there is a ISIS ? the powerful are writing that history too?
If you will poke holes into history like that I doubt that you can argue about this topic At all.

We have video evidence of Muhammad somewhere? The Internet with its millions of instantly connected voices was around back then?

WBC doesn't start a war because let me tell you why, None of them have been killed despite their burning of the quran, instead they are provided Security.

The WBC has its own fortified compound. They aren't 'provided protection' - they have their own, legally and physically.

Imagine a bunch of Muslims Burning Bibles in mosques and claiming all christians should be killed, leave security the army would be called upon them.

In the US, that would be a matter for the police, as inciteful speech (exhorting certain groups of people to be slain) is not protected in the US.

The WBC took care not to cross that line. They are an army of lawyers and act accordingly.

you say Seljuk and Timur

I say Antolia, Bosnia, Balkans, Gaza, Bulgaria, India, Myanmar,Russia, Afghanistan, Iraq.

And all of the Above have been Planned Governmental Attacks on wiping Clean the Muslim Populas

You asked, presumably, when after the collapse of the Umayyad caliphate were the Muslims doing the slaughtering. I presented two major Muslim warlords that nearly everyone with passing knowledge knows. I could go on - the Ghaznavids, Uzbeg, the Ottomans...

The Two events you Mentioned are over 1000 years old. While the scenarios Mentioned above are last 100 years for us.

Seljuk was a thousand years ago, but his legacy remains in the modern state of Turkey and their continued denial off the Armenian genocide. Timur was a few centuries more recent than a thousand years ago, and still remains, of all warlords who took religion as their mantle, by far the most brutal of all of them. His descendants oppressed India for centuries - it was only a century and a half ago that India was finally rid of them.

Again, you asked for when Muslims were the ones doing the slaughtering after the Umayyads. I provided examples.

Continuing down this line of thinking is toxic, and you are only perpetuating an ancient cycle by doing so.

[consortium11]

You asked, presumably, when after the collapse of the Umayyad caliphate were the Muslims doing the slaughtering. I presented two major Muslim warlords that nearly everyone with passing knowledge knows. I could go on - the Ghaznavids, Uzbeg, the Ottomans...

I think you've misinterpreted his points Veks.

To quote the original statement (emphasis mine):

Pick up the 1400 year history of muslims, and except for the Era of their expansion if you can give me one period when they weren't slaughtered like dogs.

"Slaughtered" not "slaughtering". He's asking for examples of time when Muslims weren't being slaughtered.

Now, that's a difficult one but largely because it's hard to point to any periods of history where members of any major religion weren't being slaughtered, frequently by different sects of their own religion.

That said...

I say Antolia, Bosnia, Balkans, Gaza, Bulgaria, India, Myanmar,Russia, Afghanistan, Iraq.

And all of the Above have been Planned Governmental Attacks on wiping Clean the Muslim Populas

Just to pick out the three bolded examples, if the intention really was to "wipe clean the Muslim populous" then one would have to conclude that the Israeli and Coalition governments and armies are pretty much the single most incompetent forces in the history of the world. If they really wanted to wipe out all the Muslims in those areas they could come pretty damn close, even without resorting to nukes. Yet they haven't.

[Sheoldred]

Since you asked,
One discovery Science made later than the quran let me give you Several
http://www.missionislam.com/science/book.htm

The author is grasping at straws here by taking some verses, most of which claim something completely self-evident and obvious, and trying to link it to science.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/11/23/islamic-embryology-overblown-balderdash/

[Retribution]

As for the planned US invasion until being scared off, you are clearly referring to the mission that assassinated Osama Bin Laden. You know the most wanted man in the world? He had apparently been hiding in Pakistan’s proverbial back yard for years and no one in the country knew? Us Special Forces then invaded Pakistan’s air space, killed said most wanted man in the world, and departed with his corpse before Pakistan’s military knew they were there. Quite the formidable defense system they got there I am sure the US military was terrified.

As for planned invasions, the US has supplied billions of dollars of aid to Pakistan. They are in fact the largest recipient of US financial aid. See the links below, but they still hid the most wanted terrorist in the world for years. The only invasion I see here is an invasion of misappropriated US capital.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/blog/2014/08/12/penny-dollar-us-foreign-aid-about-one-percent-spending/?gclid=CJ2W_8rk1sACFVJo7Aod7B0ALw

http://www.usaid.gov/pakistan

[Kythia]

Your stats are very misleading, Retribution.

Between 2002-2010, US Congress approved $18 billion in military and economic aid from the United States. However the Pakistan Treasury only received $8.647 billion in direct financial payments.

So only about 50% of aid actually goes to Pakistan.  Further around 66% of US aid over the period 2002-2014 has been military aid - i.e. it has been to be used solely for various military purposes.  That's not aid.  it's really not.  That knocks the 8 billion down to around 3 billion.

I'm certainly not claiming that the aid is non-existant - it's not it's substantial - but simply that the majority of this "aid" goes to benefit the US, not Pakistan.  Which, obviously, causes ill feeling - Pakistanis are being told "Look at all this help we give you" when in fact that "help" is almost entirely self serving or doesn't in fact exist.

[DarkAngel111]

As for the planned US invasion until being scared off, you are clearly referring to the mission that assassinated Osama Bin Laden. You know the most wanted man in the world? He had apparently been hiding in Pakistan’s proverbial back yard for years and no one in the country knew? Us Special Forces then invaded Pakistan’s air space, killed said most wanted man in the world, and departed with his corpse before Pakistan’s military knew they were there. Quite the formidable defense system they got there I am sure the US military was terrified.

As for planned invasions, the US has supplied billions of dollars of aid to Pakistan. They are in fact the largest recipient of US financial aid. See the links below, but they still hid the most wanted terrorist in the world for years. The only invasion I see here is an invasion of misappropriated US capital.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/blog/2014/08/12/penny-dollar-us-foreign-aid-about-one-percent-spending/?gclid=CJ2W_8rk1sACFVJo7Aod7B0ALw

http://www.usaid.gov/pakistan

I respectfuly bowed out of this conversation, Which relates to Islam,
You want to talk politics?, Let me give you some stats.

300 million $ worth of Properties are being built by our Political leaders, while they receive this said 8 or so billion in aid.

Its really not helping Pakistan. Its payments being made to politicians to secure their Interests.
Why else would USA support the Most Utterly Rigged election in the history of pakistan?.

Our Leaders are selling Coal and Gold reserves to US in exchange for this So called aid.


you said they found Bin Laden, But do you know, Usama Bin Laden was Shot down in 2007, by US army Operation, Just before the Milatary Coup ended in pakistan. The information never got out because America Forced its Feet into Ground and influenced policy to get a Democratic Government that has now Taken More Loans and AId than Pakistan has needed in 60+ years. Yet Our Economy has never been lower?.

Where is this Aid going?, Its Bribes to Keep Politicians in Their Pockets.

As for Why America Fears pakistan?, its the Nukes We keep. Why don't you go tell your army boots to set foot here, and we will see if US survives a day.
This is not Iraq or Afghanistan. The Civilian populas here once Chased out Armed Forces of India With Sticks in 65 war. That is what they Fear.

Laden Operation happened because the Elected Goverment then was allowing drones, if you read reports they flew under the radar, even then 2 of their Choppers were shot down. We did not want to Provoke a war, that is the only reason why we didn't shoot US down.

Why do you think the World's largest army (india) does not attack and take over pakistan? They Outnumber us 100 to 1, yet they don't dare.

[Retribution]

Well this discussion I think we can all agree is going no place. So as I bow out I will use Kythia's $3 billion figure. That is billion with a big B. As a tax payer it vexes me seeing that very large pile of money when Bin Laden was found out behind the proverbial barn. The rest of the details we could argue forever, but for example I accept that there is corruption going on with said money and we will leave it at that.

[DarkAngel111]

This discussion will never go anywhere, it is a reason why I never engage myself in in them, not sure what possessed me to get into it here.

I am requesting no more questions be directed to me.

[Kythia]

I am requesting no more questions be directed to me.

Are you sure?

[Beorning]

DarkAngel, I genuinely understand and respect that this discussion might be hard for you - and I do not want to cause anyone any distress. So, if you want to bow out, I'll respect that. On the other hand, please consider this: you believe that I have a wrong image of Islam. Then, maybe you could help me with dispelling some of my fears?

You know, I've been attacked for my religious views, too. And what I did was trying to *talk* to the people that attacked me. And to show what my worldview was about.

How can we learn to understand each other, if we don't talk? How can I verify and dismiss my fears about Islam, if no Muslim won't talk to me about them?

Also, respectfully, I'd like to take issue with this:

Are they really? They have been killed by the thousands,
and Let me tell you, If they hadn't fought back like they did, however Unjustified it is and however Wrong I think it is, it would not be dissimilar to the Mass Genocide carried out by hitler on Jews.

For some reason no one here is concerned that Muslim Population would be Wiped clean if they just Stood by and watched.

and this:

I don't see anyone getting up for their rights, I don't see any Humanitarian foundations standing up for Gaza, Or Afghanistan, or Iraq. And even if they did get up no one made a difference it was all a photo-session.

Firstly, I am very concerned for civilian victims of conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan. As I said earlier, I condemn what Americans did in Iraq and it terrifies me to think how many innocent people died because of that war. That said, please don't compare this to the Holocaust! Americans did not go to Afghanistan and Iraq to *exterminate* Muslims because of their religion. They didn't build deathcamps and they didn't gas people to death. With all due respect to the horrific plight of civilians in these two countries, there is no Holocaust-like genocide going on there. Please, don't make this kind of comparisons, because they are really off.

Secondly, please don't say that there is no Western concern about Gaza! Actually, there's a lot of support for Palestine here in Europe and there are Western humanitarian organizations helping people there. One of them is my country's PAH. It really isn't fair for you to belittle the honest work done by people like that...

[Zakharra]

  I got a question DarkAngel. It's nothing to do with the topic that you've bowed out of, but it is kind of off topic. I have noticed when you post, often a lot of the words in the middle of sentences are capitalized. Why? It looks like you're putting in unnecessary capitalization. I haven't seen a writing style like that since I last saw old broadsheets or books/pamphlets from the turn of the last century. It looks somewhat jarring to see sentences written like that.

And back on topic: it looks like you are very sensitive about any criticism about Islam, I read the posts and I didn't see any real attacks against you, just against certain aspects of Islam and those who use its name, but you seemed to take those as an attack against you personally. Nowhere did I see people like Beorning or others launch an attack against you. They were relaying what they had themselves experienced and heard and were saying what they have perceived from world events and such about Islam and those groups purporting to be Islamic. Try to understand that a criticism against Islam is -not- an attack on you personally. I think you need to learn to separate yourself from that and to try not take any such criticism against the religion personally.

[Ephiral]

Okay, I *really* take issue with what you're saying here, Ephiral. It actually borders on sneaky personal attack. "What's really motivating them"? Please...

That... okay, was a bit harsh.

I repeat: only ten years ago, I was firmly in the same camp as you. I kept saying the same things you say! But over the years, I kept watching the news and... really, I just can't help wondering lately. We've had the Taliban, we have ISIS, we have apostates being executed for leaving Islam, we have women stoned for being rape victims, we have the educational issues raised by Valthazar, now we have "Sharia Police" in Germany... I mean, look at all of this together. Is there really no point we'd be allowed to start wondering whether, maybe, there is some sort of problem within Islam itself?

We have the IRA, we have widespread abuse of women and children, we have the severe educational problems in fundamentalist America, we have major evangelical figures calling for the death or conversion of ISIS, we have the leading Charismatic/Pentecostal publication putting out articles that openly call for the genocide of 1/7 of the world's population and claim you're not a real Christian unless you're ready to participate personally...
At what point are we allowed to start wondering whether, maybe, there is some sort of problem within Christianity itself?

And yes, sure, other religions aren't free from the "ugly side". But the problem is, Islam seems to have a really *big* ugly side. You keep mentioning Westboro Baptist Church, people - but let's imagine that there is a whole army conquering lands and executing people in the name of WBC... At the same time, many countries subscribe to WBC-style laws... and in another countries, there would be attempts to introduce WBC ideas into schools etc. Imagine all this happening at the same time. Would you really still be saying that WBC isn't a problem? And would it be so utterly nonsensical to wonder if, maybe, there's something wrong within Christianity itself, as WBC-like ideas get this kind of recognition among Christians?

No, it wouldn't be nonsensical at all. So the fact that very few people are doing it even as leading voices call for mass murder and genocide, but 0.002% of the Muslim population is taken as representative is... troubling.

There's another factor at play, too: As I've noted before, the particularly violent groups tend to happen in and immediately around places that have been routinely getting bombed or shelled for twenty years or more. A lot of these people literally have never known a time when they weren't at risk of getting blown the hell up by the people these organizations call "enemy". Personally, I think being constantly surrounded by violence and bloodshed does a lot more to make a violent outburst seem palatable or desirable than any holy book.

[Vekseid]

I think you've misinterpreted his points Veks.

To quote the original statement (emphasis mine):

"Slaughtered" not "slaughtering". He's asking for examples of time when Muslims weren't being slaughtered.

Now, that's a difficult one but largely because it's hard to point to any periods of history where members of any major religion weren't being slaughtered, frequently by different sects of their own religion.

I took it to mean when Muslims were not facing serious aggression and were in fact the serious aggressors. Otherwise the statement makes little logical sense.

That said...

Just to pick out the three bolded examples, if the intention really was to "wipe clean the Muslim populous" then one would have to conclude that the Israeli and Coalition governments and armies are pretty much the single most incompetent forces in the history of the world. If they really wanted to wipe out all the Muslims in those areas they could come pretty damn close, even without resorting to nukes. Yet they haven't.

His mention of Anatolia (Turkey) is downright offensive. The slaughter of millions of non-Muslims - more than everything the US has done in all of its theaters involving Islamic populaces from Barbary to the Philippines - is casually swept under the rug, but somehow this is an offense against Muslims.



To reiterate, I'm not making the statement that Christianity or any ideology is 'better'. Christianity has the Albigensian crusade, the entire fucking Teutonic order and the Baltic crusades, Charlemagne's Saxon mini-genocide, the Spanish Inquisition, atrocities during the Third Crusade, the Thirty Years' War, the 'pornocracy', Uganda...

I don't particularly care to make a list of which one was 'worse'. I put no stock on either, they each have the blood of tens if not hundreds of millions of dead on their names. Islamism and Dominionism are both powerful sociopolitical forces in the modern age, and both are still willing to kill - or have others killed - for what they think is right.

It's not a history or situation I would take pride in.

[Sheoldred]

In Bruce Bawer's book I came across a new word I haven't seen before. Dhimmi. He painted a rather sad picture of what it means. Google results spin a similar tale.

So basically dhimmis are Jews, Christians, and everybody else who isn't a Muslim living in Muslim conquered lands as second-hand citizens. A far cry from the 'you have my religion and you have yours, let's still be friends and live in peace'. No better than the 'kafirs' the way Bill Warner speaks of them.

Here's a quick article about it but take it with a grain of salt, could be Jewish propaganda: http://www.jewishmag.com/57mag/dhimmi/dhimmi.htm

Anyway, perhaps there's somebody more educated on the subject who could explain this to me? Bruce Bawer seems convinced that many Muslims living in Europe treat europeans as dhimmis already.

[Zakharra]

  This is one thing I have never really understood. Why do so many muslims insist that religious law become secular law? As far as I know, in Europe and the Americas, there is a definite divide between secular power and religious power, so even though a nation might be mostly one religion (counting the different branches and sects as one for convenience) the religion itself is not the law of the land. But one thing I have seen in the news time and again is an insistence of many muslims that Sharia become secular law for them, or have just as much power as secular law. Why this insistence on putting a religion's laws over  a nation's laws, especially when not all, or even most people do not follow that religion?

[Ephiral]

  This is one thing I have never really understood. Why do so many muslims insist that religious law become secular law? As far as I know, in Europe and the Americas, there is a definite divide between secular power and religious power, so even though a nation might be mostly one religion (counting the different branches and sects as one for convenience) the religion itself is not the law of the land. But one thing I have seen in the news time and again is an insistence of many muslims that Sharia become secular law for them, or have just as much power as secular law. Why this insistence on putting a religion's laws over  a nation's laws, especially when not all, or even most people do not follow that religion?

That's a good question.

[Kythia]

  This is one thing I have never really understood. Why do so many muslims insist that religious law become secular law? As far as I know, in Europe and the Americas, there is a definite divide between secular power and religious power,

Eh, not sure I'd agree with you.  Don't forget England, Denmark and Greece have an established Church.  Sweden did until pretty recently as well I think - Louise?  Too lazy to google.