Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?

Started by Callie Del Noire, November 07, 2013, 11:22:49 PM

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Callie Del Noire

I am curious.. I've looked around after seeing one alt news source post from a friend of mine put on his facebook page. I can't help but wonder if they 'vanished' her for being too much trouble? Or if something happened while she was on hunger strike and no one wants to admit she's hurt/dead/dying whatever.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24848893

Toral Stimins

Poetin is looking more and more like Stalin was in his heighdays. People just 'disappearing'. I hadn't heard it, but it rings all sorts of alarmbells for me.

gaggedLouise

Moving a captive prisoner to another jail, or to a special closed department of some kind, when he/she is protesting against their conditions at the present jail, that's an old Soviet method. The intention being to break off communication lines between said prisoner and other inmates, and ultimately to the outside world.

In itself it wouldn't have to indicate that she had been long-term harmed or fallen unconscious or the like, they might just want to keep her out of sight, but yes it could sort of equal dumping her in a dark dungeon. And in that kind of remote place, of course there would be nothing to stop continued abuse.  :-(


Anyone wanting to have a look at how hunger strikes and prisoner resistance were handled in the early decades of the Soviet Union, and how the prison system and jail regime vs political convicts changed from the last days of old Russia into the Soviet era, sometimes within the same prison buildings - take a look at the final chapter of Vol.1 of Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago. It's called simply "Prison", but inside is an engaging analysis of how the attitudes of prisoners, guards and local prison managers changed over a couple of decades, and of the tough choices over strategy and morals that prisoners had to make if they wanted to fight back from inside the cells.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Dashenka

She didn't vanish. She's just transported to a different prison. Really those western media attention lines are getting annoying. Just because the BBC or her husband doesn't know where she is, doesn't mean she vanished.  >:(

The reason why she got moved I think is because of all the attention she was getting in prison. There's more pressing matters in Russia at the moment and the last thing the Putin regime wants is for Nadezhda to get more attention. Oldest trick in the book. You go to prison and when that doesn't work, you'll go to another prison.

Also the prison authorities saying they don't have her there, doesn't mean she isn't there. They're just not telling anybody even if she was.

So to answer your question Callie. Yes. They moved her for being too much trouble :)
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Oniya

Just because nobody knows where she is, other than the people that moved her, doesn't mean she vanished?  Collins English Dictionary would beg to differ:

vanish [ˈvænɪʃ]
vb (intr)
1. to disappear, esp suddenly or mysteriously
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Toral Stimins

Quote from: Dashenka on November 08, 2013, 07:37:08 AM
She didn't vanish. She's just transported to a different prison. Really those western media attention lines are getting annoying. Just because the BBC or her husband doesn't know where she is, doesn't mean she vanished.  >:(

The reason why she got moved I think is because of all the attention she was getting in prison. There's more pressing matters in Russia at the moment and the last thing the Putin regime wants is for Nadezhda to get more attention. Oldest trick in the book. You go to prison and when that doesn't work, you'll go to another prison.

Also the prison authorities saying they don't have her there, doesn't mean she isn't there. They're just not telling anybody even if she was.

So to answer your question Callie. Yes. They moved her for being too much trouble :)

More pressing matters? Like how to deal with a bunch of possible homosexual sports people in the upcoming Winter Olympics? Or Russian diplomats that go off the rails and beat their kids in the street in a not named European city and then demanding for the police (who arrested the diplomat) to be arrested?

You cannot deny that Putin is, no matter how much he will deny it, starting to look like a copy cat to Iosif Vissarionovich, in all the bad ways of the word.

Or how to protect Edward Snowdon from the West? God forbid that someone from the west would use polonium on him.

Dashenka

Quote from: Oniya on November 08, 2013, 07:51:21 AM
Just because nobody knows where she is, other than the people that moved her, doesn't mean she vanished?  Collins English Dictionary would beg to differ:

vanish [ˈvænɪʃ]
vb (intr)
1. to disappear, esp suddenly or mysteriously

But somebody knows where she is, thus saying nobody knows where she is, is a lie. The people writing the article and her friends and familie don't know where she is but does that still define as vanished?


Quote from: Toral Stimins on November 08, 2013, 07:54:38 AM
More pressing matters? Like how to deal with a bunch of possible homosexual sports people in the upcoming Winter Olympics? Or Russian diplomats that go off the rails and beat their kids in the street in a not named European city and then demanding for the police (who arrested the diplomat) to be arrested?

I've lived in the The Netherlands so I know the current relations between Den Haag and Moscow. Those are more pressing matters. The ever present thread of terrorism, how to keep all the provinces and republics together, oil, gas, natural resources, poverty, corruption. All these things are more pressing matters.

Snowden deserves protection and Western Europe cannot provide that cause they all got Kerry so far up their asses that they can't even sit properly.

I didn't say I agree with Putin on this matter but I doubt it was Putin who told the prison to move Nadezhda. I'm pretty sure he's got better things to do than to sign and order prisoners to be moved.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Oniya

Quote from: Dashenka on November 08, 2013, 08:01:07 AM
But somebody knows where she is, thus saying nobody knows where she is, is a lie. The people writing the article and her friends and familie don't know where she is but does that still define as vanished?

If a magician locks her assistant in a cupboard, waves her wand and does her patter, and then opens the cupboard to show it is now empty, the magician knows where the assistant is.  The assistant knows where the assistant is.  It is still called a 'vanishing act'.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Dashenka

Quote from: Oniya on November 08, 2013, 08:04:40 AM
If a magician locks her assistant in a cupboard, waves her wand and does her patter, and then opens the cupboard to show it is now empty, the magician knows where the assistant is.  The assistant knows where the assistant is.  It is still called a 'vanishing act'.

No. It's called deceit. Comparing prisoner transport  like this with a magic act is a bit like comparing a plane crash with a kid falling off his bicycle.

I think a lot of people know where she is but they just won't tell anybody because that would immediately nullify the effect of moving her in the first place.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Toral Stimins

Quote from: Dashenka on November 08, 2013, 08:01:07 AM
But somebody knows where she is, thus saying nobody knows where she is, is a lie. The people writing the article and her friends and familie don't know where she is but does that still define as vanished?


I've lived in the The Netherlands so I know the current relations between Den Haag and Moscow. Those are more pressing matters. The ever present thread of terrorism, how to keep all the provinces and republics together, oil, gas, natural resources, poverty, corruption. All these things are more pressing matters.

Snowden deserves protection and Western Europe cannot provide that cause they all got Kerry so far up their asses that they can't even sit properly.

I didn't say I agree with Putin on this matter but I doubt it was Putin who told the prison to move Nadezhda. I'm pretty sure he's got better things to do than to sign and order prisoners to be moved.

The current relations between The Hague and Moscow are chilly to say the very least. In a year classed by both as their 'friendship year'. But to the Dutch it's more and more like the friendship has only to come from the Netherlands. The fact that Russia hijacked a Greenpeace ship in international waters, if it were Somalians the world would cry shame, but since nobody ever questions Putin, nothing is heard. Most of the activists on the Greenpeace ship are still held captive. Somewhere.

To my opinion, of course does Putin know where she is. And even more, I wouldn't be surprised in the very least if he's not the one who's signed the transfer. You can say a lot about the guy, but he's a manipulator first class, he's no doubt studied some people in power before.

Holding the provinces together more pressing? Would you have classed Ukraine as a province? Or Estonia? It's just as you want to see it. The days of Glasnost are well and truly over, it's back to the old days.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Dashenka on November 08, 2013, 07:37:08 AM
She didn't vanish. She's just transported to a different prison. Really those western media attention lines are getting annoying. Just because the BBC or her husband doesn't know where she is, doesn't mean she vanished.  >:(

The reason why she got moved I think is because of all the attention she was getting in prison. There's more pressing matters in Russia at the moment and the last thing the Putin regime wants is for Nadezhda to get more attention. Oldest trick in the book. You go to prison and when that doesn't work, you'll go to another prison.

Also the prison authorities saying they don't have her there, doesn't mean she isn't there. They're just not telling anybody even if she was.

So to answer your question Callie. Yes. They moved her for being too much trouble :)

So, you're saying that when a US prison fails to provide a location of someone it's a bad thing BUT when a Russian prison system does it , it's just business as usual? No offense but the Russian detention system has been infamous for decades for all manners of human right violations. These women were found guilty of a relatively minor offense and shipped off to a maximum security prison. Now, the government WONT tell her husband AND her lawyers were she is?  And we are NOT to assume the worse?

Love those rose colored glasses you're wearing there.


Dashenka

Quote from: Toral Stimins on November 08, 2013, 08:12:37 AM
The current relations between The Hague and Moscow are chilly to say the very least. In a year classed by both as their 'friendship year'. But to the Dutch it's more and more like the friendship has only to come from the Netherlands. The fact that Russia hijacked a Greenpeace ship in international waters, if it were Somalians the world would cry shame, but since nobody ever questions Putin, nothing is heard. Most of the activists on the Greenpeace ship are still held captive. Somewhere.

To my opinion, of course does Putin know where she is. And even more, I wouldn't be surprised in the very least if he's not the one who's signed the transfer. You can say a lot about the guy, but he's a manipulator first class, he's no doubt studied some people in power before.

Holding the provinces together more pressing? Would you have classed Ukraine as a province? Or Estonia? It's just as you want to see it. The days of Glasnost are well and truly over, it's back to the old days.

1. I agree on the Greenpeace ship. Russia had no right to enter, arrest and then drag the ship to Murmansk. On the other hand, Dutch companies still do a lot of (new) trading with Russian companies.

2. He does where she is but I don't believe he ordered it. I also agree that he is a manipulator.

3. No Ukraine and Estonia are not provinces. I mean Chechnya, Dagestan, Igushetia, Tatarstan, etc.

As I've said in previous topics regarding Russian politics, Russia cannot be governed like western europe or the US. It would be all out war in a week or two. So in order to keep the peace he and his government do what is necessary to keep the country together. Trust me when I say that it's in the best interest of the whole world if he succeeds.


Quote from: Callie Del Noire on November 08, 2013, 08:19:45 AM
So, you're saying that when a US prison fails to provide a location of someone it's a bad thing BUT when a Russian prison system does it , it's just business as usual?

Love those rose colored glasses you're wearing there.


No? I never said that? I didn't even mention the US system. If I would I'd have gone straight for Guantanamo Bay. But I didn't. I don't know how the US system works. The fact that they relocated her is of course a way to keep her quiet. If it's business as usual, well you all seem to know the answer to that. I don't agree with the way she treated either. I just answered your question.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Oniya on November 08, 2013, 08:04:40 AM
If a magician locks her assistant in a cupboard, waves her wand and does her patter, and then opens the cupboard to show it is now empty, the magician knows where the assistant is.  The assistant knows where the assistant is.  It is still called a 'vanishing act'.

+3. Of course.

You've got a funny way of un-defining "vanish", Dashenka. In 1970s Latin America, countries like Argentina and Chile, thousands of people were grabbed from their homes by cops or by secret military units and taken to secret locations for torture and interrorgation. Many of them were never heard of again, some were dumped into the sea from airplanes and helicopters or killed and buried in back yards or forests. They're known as "the Disappeared".

Now, for every such group who were taken care of, questioned and, often, ultimately killed, there will have to be some people in the Argentine Navy or secret police, etc, who knew exactly what happened to those particular persons. Only, precisely those persons who gave any orders or helped out were sworn to silence.

Actually, those KNVD and GULAG boys used similar tactics back in the day, too.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Dashenka

Quote from: gaggedLouise on November 08, 2013, 08:45:24 AM
+3. Of course.

You've got a funny way of un-defining "vanish", Dashenka. In 1970s Latin America, countries like Argentina and Chile, thousands of people were grabbed from their homes by cops or by secret military units and taken to secret locations for torture and interrorgation. Many of them were never heard of again, some were dumped into the sea from airplanes and helicopters or killed and buried in back yards or forests. They're known as "the Disappeared".

Now, for every such group who were taken care of, questioned and, often, ultimately killed, there will have to be some people in the Argentine Navy or secret police, etc, who knew what happened woth those particular persons. Only, those persons were sworn to silence.

Actually, those KNVD and GULAG boys used similar tactics back in the day, too.

Yes but what you say is that these people all died and never were seen again. Nadezhda has just been transferred to a different location. Nadezha is not dead. (no pun intended)
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Toral Stimins

Quote from: Dashenka on November 08, 2013, 08:24:24 AM
1. I agree on the Greenpeace ship. Russia had no right to enter, arrest and then drag the ship to Murmansk. On the other hand, Dutch companies still do a lot of (new) trading with Russian companies.

2. He does where she is but I don't believe he ordered it. I also agree that he is a manipulator.

3. No Ukraine and Estonia are not provinces. I mean Chechnya, Dagestan, Igushetia, Tatarstan, etc.

As I've said in previous topics regarding Russian politics, Russia cannot be governed like western europe or the US. It would be all out war in a week or two. So in order to keep the peace he and his government do what is necessary to keep the country together. Trust me when I say that it's in the best interest of the whole world if he succeeds.


No? I never said that? I didn't even mention the US system. If I would I'd have gone straight for Guantanamo Bay. But I didn't. I don't know how the US system works. The fact that they relocated her is of course a way to keep her quiet. If it's business as usual, well you all seem to know the answer to that. I don't agree with the way she treated either. I just answered your question.

I know I am derailing this from the original post, apologies for that.

Yet, I just have to, according to wiki (I know, not the most reliable source in the world) there are 83 federal subject in the Russian Federation. 46 of those are classed as oblasts, or provinces. 21 are classed as republics, which are nominally autonomous, and all four that you mention (etc) are falling into that category. Which in some ways means that whomever is or was in power, acknowledges that those parts of the Federation have a right for autonomy. Who, somewhere along the time line of history, were independent from Moscow.

Josep Tito held Yugoslavia together (even though he was no native), Hitler managed to get a greater Germany and he was Austrian. Iosip was from Georgia and held the Soviet Union together, but to say it was best for their countries is to try to say surpression is good.

It surprises me a great deal that Scotland and Wales (and Northern Ireland for that matter) are not independent countries. That Pays Basque and Catalunya are still part of Spain, that the Southern provinces of the Netherlands and the Flemish part of Belgium haven't formed a country and I can name a fair few more of those regions where the borders just were cut the wrong way around. But isn't it time to let more people have their own country rather than civil wars all the time? I'm old enough to remember that attack in Chechnya on that school, never again I would say.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: gaggedLouise on November 08, 2013, 08:45:24 AM
+3. Of course.

You've got a funny way of un-defining "vanish", Dashenka. In 1970s Latin America, countries like Argentina and Chile, thousands of people were grabbed from their homes by cops or by secret military units and taken to secret locations for torture and interrorgation. Many of them were never heard of again, some were dumped into the sea from airplanes and helicopters or killed and buried in back yards or forests. They're known as "the Disappeared".

Now, for every such group who were taken care of, questioned and, often, ultimately killed, there will have to be some people in the Argentine Navy or secret police, etc, who knew what happened woth those particular persons. Only, those persons were sworn to silence.

Actually, those KNVD and GULAG boys used similar tactics back in the day, too.

'The Disappeared' is a fairly widespread occurrence in the 'bad old days' in a lot of areas. Just last week, Gerry Adams (Former IRA commander/Sinn Fein leader) was accused via dead bed confession of one of his old soldiers of disappearing a mother of 10.  RTE TV and BBC are doing a special on the Disapeared of Ireland.

Dashenka, when you get NOTHING from the system and you are family and/or a prisoner's lawyer, that is a BAD thing. That was one of the major concerns over 2012s MDAA, the fact that the USG over meant could take a citizen into custody without charge, try them (with right to lawyer OR facing ones accuser) and never even get to hear the charges against you.

When a system REFUSES to account for those in their custody, that is BAD.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Dashenka on November 08, 2013, 08:47:29 AM
Yes but what you say is that these people all died and never were seen again. Nadezhda has just been transferred to a different location. Nadezha is not dead. (no pun intended)

How do you know that? No statement to the husband Or her lawyer. No statement on her health, she was on hunger stroke. No accounting for where she is.

No offense hut we do NOT know she is alive, fit or healthy.  The lack of a body doesn't mean she's alive. Simply that she isn't at her old prison.

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Dashenka on November 08, 2013, 08:47:29 AM
Yes but what you say is that these people all died and never were seen again. Nadezhda has just been transferred to a different location. Nadezha is not dead. (no pun intended)

Having somebody vanishing into "night and fog" (as the Nazis put it) is a first step towards the prison masters getting an open season to treat the prisoner in whatever way they like. Including killing, raping or beating up that person.

It's the responsibility of any prison aithorities to keep track of its inmates. And to offer some reliable in formatikon to the public on where any given prisoner is. If Russia doesn't do that it will take about five minutes before these henchmen find they have aroused suspicions among the public that the punishment is going to become harsher than it was set out as in the sentence.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Toral Stimins

Quote from: gaggedLouise on November 08, 2013, 09:00:41 AM
Having somebody vanishing into "night and fog" (as the Nazis put it) is a first step towards the prison masters getting an open season to treat the prisoner in whatever way they like. Includingh killing, raping or beating up that person.

It's the responsibility of any prison aithorities to keep track of its inmates. And to offer some reliable in formatikon to the public on where any given prisoner is. If Russia doesn't do that it will take about five minutes before these henchmen find they have aroused suspicions among the public that the punishment is going to become harsher than it was set out as in the sentence.

For a moment I thought you were talking about what the Americans do in Guantanamo Bay or what they did in Iraq. No matter how we despise the show trial that Nadezhda had, at least she had one, something that cannot be said for a lot of prisoners the US is holding.

It is appalling that she has no right to see anyone, or that her husband and lawyers have no right to see her or hear from her, but it is not much different from how the US treats their prisoners of war. And yes, it wasn't the start of the discussion, but you just opened that door very wide for me.

Dashenka

Quote from: Toral Stimins on November 08, 2013, 09:05:17 AM
It is appalling that she has no right to see anyone, or that her husband and lawyers have no right to see her or hear from her, but it is not much different from how the US treats their prisoners of war. And yes, it wasn't the start of the discussion, but you just opened that door very wide for me.

+1


Callie, I don't know what I have to do or say to make it clear that I do not agree with it but I do understand why it happens.

There is too much international attention on Pussyriot for Putin to sign a kill order (if he even would want that). So IF she is really dead, (which I don't believe) it wasn't Putin's doing but an accident, a complication on her hunger strike or a rogue general of the Russian army doing it.

What do you think would happen to Snowden or Assange if they were to set foot on US soil? Wouldn't the US do everything in their power to make them 'vanish' as well? I don't agree but I do understand.

Furthermore I personally find it shocking and bordering on some sort of racism that when minor things like this happen in Russia, without any evidence, the whole world screams murder but when Israel or the US or the UK commit much more serious and more crimes against the ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION, it's in the newspapers for a day and then the most disgusting and scary person in the world, Kerry spreads some more lies and everything is good again.

And people still wonder why the Russians have more and more of a distrust towards the west. At least Putin and Russia's biggest concern is INTERNAL politics whereas Europe and the US are more concerned with what's going on in Russia than the terrible mess they leave in their own countries. There's some food for thought.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Toral Stimins

Quote from: Dashenka on November 08, 2013, 09:28:38 AM
+1


Callie, I don't know what I have to do or say to make it clear that I do not agree with it but I do understand why it happens.

There is too much international attention on Pussyriot for Putin to sign a kill order (if he even would want that). So IF she is really dead, (which I don't believe) it wasn't Putin's doing but an accident, a complication on her hunger strike or a rogue general of the Russian army doing it.

What do you think would happen to Snowden or Assange if they were to set foot on US soil? Wouldn't the US do everything in their power to make them 'vanish' as well? I don't agree but I do understand.

Furthermore I personally find it shocking and bordering on some sort of racism that when minor things like this happen in Russia, without any evidence, the whole world screams murder but when Israel or the US or the UK commit much more serious and more crimes against the ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION, it's in the newspapers for a day and then the most disgusting and scary person in the world, Kerry spreads some more lies and everything is good again.

And people still wonder why the Russians have more and more of a distrust towards the west. At least Putin and Russia's biggest concern is INTERNAL politics whereas Europe and the US are more concerned with what's going on in Russia than the terrible mess they leave in their own countries. There's some food for thought.

Not even food for thought. The God's honest truth. The US isn't interested in what happens back home, they don't even really care that the whole country is on the verge of shutting down because they haven't got money, as long as they can keep playing police people of the world, it seems to be fine. The US is literally bankrupt, but hey, it's capitalism, things like that are normal.

It doesn't make it right what Russia is doing, far from it, but as always it's a good diversion from your own problems. Point out someone elses and people might actually forget the problems at home.

Callie Del Noire

#21
Quote from: Dashenka on November 08, 2013, 09:28:38 AM
+1


Callie, I don't know what I have to do or say to make it clear that I do not agree with it but I do understand why it happens.

There is too much international attention on Pussyriot for Putin to sign a kill order (if he even would want that). So IF she is really dead, (which I don't believe) it wasn't Putin's doing but an accident, a complication on her hunger strike or a rogue general of the Russian army doing it.

What do you think would happen to Snowden or Assange if they were to set foot on US soil? Wouldn't the US do everything in their power to make them 'vanish' as well? I don't agree but I do understand.

Furthermore I personally find it shocking and bordering on some sort of racism that when minor things like this happen in Russia, without any evidence, the whole world screams murder but when Israel or the US or the UK commit much more serious and more crimes against the ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION, it's in the newspapers for a day and then the most disgusting and scary person in the world, Kerry spreads some more lies and everything is good again.

And people still wonder why the Russians have more and more of a distrust towards the west. At least Putin and Russia's biggest concern is INTERNAL politics whereas Europe and the US are more concerned with what's going on in Russia than the terrible mess they leave in their own countries. There's some food for thought.

Let's take a look at this. 

1.  It has been established that the US DoJ has NO standing to persecute Assange.  Whereas his actions that have left him a 'prisoner' in a consulate where of his own doing. Had he NOT fled Sweden, odds are he'd be able to rant and froth without worry elsewhere. He fled potential prosecution in SWEDEN by asserting that the US would snatch him up. Let's be honest if they thought they had a case, the White House and DoJ could have done so while he was in the UK, before or after his arrest for flight from persecution. He didn't commit treason, so there was never a death penalty in any potential US case. And let's be honest too many folks were watching him for them to do half the shit he said we would.

2. If the 'vanishing of a singer' is 'internal politics', a phrase you like to toss out a lot, it could be argued that Snowden's release of sensitive information and violation of the national security agreement as well as NDAs here in the US could be a strictly internal US matter and by your argument none of anyone else's business.

3. I find it an interesting measure that whenever we point out any issues with civil liberties anywhere in the former soviet sphere Isreal is tossed out as an 'ignored violator' by you. Why not one of the dozen Arab/Islamic states, China, South American or Asian states? Israel isn't clean true, but I don't see a veritable PILE of dead reporters, or prosecuted opposition leadership/party members like I do in Russia, Syria, Egypt, Iran, and other locations you don't bring up. There have been what? Something like 40 to 200 journalist murders unsolved since Putin stepped up to power in the 90s depending on which source you trust? Over a dozen dissident/ political rivals in prisoner for dubious crimes,  and more than a handful of questionable deaths by people who fled Russia. At least one death by polonium and a handful of other poisonings.

You toss out a remarkably high standard for the west but don't seem to think anyone should hold other counties to it.

Dashenka

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on November 08, 2013, 09:58:31 AM
Let's take a look at this. 

1.  It has been established that the US DoJ has NO standing to persecute Assange.  Whereas his actions that have left him a 'prisoner' in a consulate where of his own doing. Had he NOT fled Sweden, odds are he'd be able to rant and froth without worry elsewhere. He fled potential prosecution in SWEDEN by asserting that the US would snatch him up. Let's be honest if they thought they had a case, the White House and DoJ could have done so while he was in the UK, before or after his arrest for flight from persecution. He didn't commit treason, so there was never a death penalty in any potential US case. And let's be honest too many folks were watching him for them to do half the shit he said we would.

2. If the 'vanishing of a singer' is 'internal politics', a phrase you like to toss out a lot, it could be argued that Snowden's release of sensitive information and violation of the national security agreement as well as NDAs here in the US could be a strictly internal US matter and by your argument none of anyone else's business.

3. I find it an interesting measure that whenever we point out any issues with civil liberties anywhere in the former soviet sphere Isreal is tossed out as an 'ignored violator' by you. Why not one of the dozen Arab/Islamic states, China, South American or Asian states? Israel isn't clean true, but I don't see a veritable PILE of dead reporters, or prosecuted opposition leadership/party members like I do in Russia, Syria, Egypt, Iran, and other locations you don't bring up. There have been what? Something like 40 to 200 journalist murders unsolved since Putin stepped up to power in the 90s depending on which source you trust? Over a dozen dissident/ political rivals in prisoner for dubious crimes,  and more than a handful of questionable deaths by people who fled Russia. At least one death by polonium and a handful of other poisonings.

You toss out a remarkably high standard for the west but don't seem to think anyone should hold other counties to it.

And the thousands of suffering Palestinians on the west bank? Let's ignore them? It's what everybody seems to be doing for years and years.

Example on my view on this whole Russia vs the West thing.

When Russia refused to sign the UN treaty to invade and interfere in Syria, it made world news and most UN countries blamed Russia for being too passive and protecting it's ally.

When the US blocked/blocks EVERY SINGLE treaty saying Israel should stop commiting war crimes against the palestinians, NOBODY gives a fuck. (until one day the Arabian Liga and Russia have had enough of it and hopefully bomb the place off the map)

The US has been giving the finger to world politics, international treaty's and the UN for years and years and years and suddenly when Russia tells them to suck on it and fuck off, everybody gets wildly upset that Russia is the culprit.
I cannot believe that so many people fail to see that. When America (or it's allies) does it, it's fine and justified and maybe even the only right thing to do, but when Russia does EXACTLY the same thing, it's terrible.
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Quote from: Callie Del Noire on November 08, 2013, 09:58:31 AM
Let's take a look at this. 

1.  It has been established that the US DoJ has NO standing to persecute Assange.  Whereas his actions that have left him a 'prisoner' in a consulate where of his own doing. Had he NOT fled Sweden, odds are he'd be able to rant and froth without worry elsewhere. He fled potential prosecution in SWEDEN by asserting that the US would snatch him up. Let's be honest if they thought they had a case, the White House and DoJ could have done so while he was in the UK, before or after his arrest for flight from persecution. He didn't commit treason, so there was never a death penalty in any potential US case. And let's be honest too many folks were watching him for them to do half the shit he said we would.

2. If the 'vanishing of a singer' is 'internal politics', a phrase you like to toss out a lot, it could be argued that Snowden's release of sensitive information and violation of the national security agreement as well as NDAs here in the US could be a strictly internal US matter and by your argument none of anyone else's business.

3. I find it an interesting measure that whenever we point out any issues with civil liberties anywhere in the former soviet sphere Isreal is tossed out as an 'ignored violator' by you. Why not one of the dozen Arab/Islamic states, China, South American or Asian states? Israel isn't clean true, but I don't see a veritable PILE of dead reporters, or prosecuted opposition leadership/party members like I do in Russia, Syria, Egypt, Iran, and other locations you don't bring up. There have been what? Something like 40 to 200 journalist murders unsolved since Putin stepped up to power in the 90s depending on which source you trust? Over a dozen dissident/ political rivals in prisoner for dubious crimes,  and more than a handful of questionable deaths by people who fled Russia. At least one death by polonium and a handful of other poisoning a.

Wow, just wow.

Yasser Arafat was also killed by polonium and it's beyond reasonable doubt that Israel did that. Israel who pulls the 'we were almost killed off by the German' card so many times that people actually forget they are the occupying country. It was called Palestina for so many reasons. The land of Yeshua (give or take the spelling) wasn't even close to where it is now. If reporters and not citizens are a measure of how good or bad a country is, then no, Israel doesn't make the deadline, but hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian citizens killed for no other reason than they are not Jewish should be called as race murder.

The information that Snowden brought out, like the fact that the US of A spied on European leaders is of course very sensitive information. Because, it's no good that we in Europe know that a country that's supposed to be our 'friend' is actually spying on us. Should I refer to the act that was signed by Bush in 2002? That the US of A can and will invade the Netherlands (after all, it's only a fellow country in NATO) if an American is ever brought to trial for crimes against humanity? (Rule number 1 of NATO says that if one country of NATO is attacked all countries of NATO are attacked.

Assange was only prosecuted in Sweden after he had been outed for his other work. In fact, the women who were forced into filing, had no plans of doing so. But yet, that is not mentioned anywhere anymore.

Public Enemy, the band, has not been so much prosecuted in the US, but they have sure been harassed by politics, why? Because they were black and rapped about what the black community thought.

When Russia, The Soviet Union, had long found that there should be no distinction between race colours, America still had a division between black and white waiting rooms, toilets and a lot more. I welcome the fact that it might look America has grown up with a black president, but even that is challenged and questioned to this day and age. 'Is he really American?' Who gives a toss? Nobody on your side of the Atlantic is really American, unless they are of Indian origin, all others are imported.

I am very much against what Russia has done now with Nadia, what they did with Raoul Wallenberg in the past, Aleksander Solzjenetsin and many many many others, it is no fair game for you to point anything out to Russia, America is just as much at fault. Period.

Callie Del Noire

#24
Quote from: Toral Stimins on November 08, 2013, 10:14:32 AM
Wow, just wow.

Yasser Arafat was also killed by polonium and it's beyond reasonable doubt that Israel did that. Israel who pulls the 'we were almost killed off by the German' card so many times that people actually forget they are the occupying country. It was called Palestina for so many reasons. The land of Yeshua (give or take the spelling) wasn't even close to where it is now. If reporters and not citizens are a measure of how good or bad a country is, then no, Israel doesn't make the deadline, but hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian citizens killed for no other reason than they are not Jewish should be called as race murder.

The information that Snowden brought out, like the fact that the US of A spied on European leaders is of course very sensitive information. Because, it's no good that we in Europe know that a country that's supposed to be our 'friend' is actually spying on us. Should I refer to the act that was signed by Bush in 2002? That the US of A can and will invade the Netherlands (after all, it's only a fellow country in NATO) if an American is ever brought to trial for crimes against humanity? (Rule number 1 of NATO says that if one country of NATO is attacked all countries of NATO are attacked.

Assange was only prosecuted in Sweden after he had been outed for his other work. In fact, the women who were forced into filing, had no plans of doing so. But yet, that is not mentioned anywhere anymore.

Public Enemy, the band, has not been so much prosecuted in the US, but they have sure been harassed by politics, why? Because they were black and rapped about what the black community thought.

When Russia, The Soviet Union, had long found that there should be no distinction between race colours, America still had a division between black and white waiting rooms, toilets and a lot more. I welcome the fact that it might look America has grown up with a black president, but even that is challenged and questioned to this day and age. 'Is he really American?' Who gives a toss? Nobody on your side of the Atlantic is really American, unless they are of Indian origin, all others are imported.

I am very much against what Russia has done now with Nadia, what they did with Raoul Wallenberg in the past, Aleksander Solzjenetsin and many many many others, it is no fair game for you to point anything out to Russia, America is just as much at fault. Period.

So, it's okay to bring up segregation but I can't point out prior bad act on the behalf of the Russian government even over the last decade.? Nice double standard. .

Okay, the Arrafat 'poisoning'. One, chain of custody in that is very iffy. Two, they waited TEN years to do it?  Sorry, guickie google, nine years. The woman who REFUSED an autopsy then has him dug up now? I'm sorry but I'm dubious till the Swiss do their FULL assessment which was still ongoing.

Do I have heartburn over the Isreali/Palastenian crisis? Yes. Do I wish the moderate parties would steer their government into supporting their following their own treaties. Yes.

Do I wish everyone in the Middle East would make both sides sit down, stop using the Palestians as their chess pieces in a fight? YES. Hell YES?  I know that there are a lot of Persians, Arabs and others that would like nothing more than to fight Isreal to the last Palestians. NEITHER side in that conflict is clean.

I have repeatedly wished my own party would man up and ell the crazy conservative Isreali leadership to man up and obey the treaty conditions. I know about TEN moderate Jews here in the US, friends/teachers/former coworkers who pray daily that the reform movement ongoing in Isreal breaks the death grip the ultra orthodox and conservative factions have on the government.

As for Snowden's 'revelation' of US spying. Please , it has long been common assumption that we spy on our allies and vice versa. How about a source for that 'act' Bush signed to invade the Netherlands please.  The thing is..Snowden's revealed it. That's it. I know that the US has in the past asked British and French 'diplomats' to leave for spying. It is the way of the world. Do I like it? no. Can I change it? Not much beyond writing to my elected officials and comparing about over reach. Which I've done. I think the vast scope of the NSA has been out of control since 9/11. Said so repeatedly. I think the NSA needs to be broke up and that the DoD should be coordinating drone strikes with the CIA providing intelligence,more oversight and a shit ton more on the Rules of Engagement. My take on the last decade and change in US intelligence actions? We need to de-privatize US intelligence, stick to rules engagement that are clear and defined, and put a shit ton of cash into rebuilding overseas human intelligence.

As for no racism in Russia? Please check your sources.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2013/06/07/racism-russia-how-moscow-capitalizes-xenophobia

Google Yaya tourė while you're at it.

I'm just as hard on my country about issues like 'Rendition' and the atrocity they put in the 2012 NDAA where if you were linked to 'terrorist' elements, you could potentially lose your rights as a citizen. I have called, written and commented a LOT about it. It is WRONG to deny your own citizens their rights.

And that's MY issue with this. You start down that slope and you start thinking of the bullshit like its okay to 'outsource' interrogations to countries who have a 'flexible' outlook on 'enhanced' interrogation. 'Sequestering' problem prisoners means less accountability to what is done to them. Ask Nelson Mandela what he thought of that. 

Do I claim the US is Lilly white in the actions of the lasted decade+? Fuck no. I'm terrified by the continuing failure of my fellow citizens to let go of the FEAR and realize that our actions are enabling our enemies. I served my country. I love it. I want it to return to a more reasoned and rational course. I want them to do the fight the RIGHT way. Unfortunately I'm in the minority. So I speak up and refuse to be silent about its sins. I respect Snowden for speaking up, BUT I also think a whistleblower should face the music. This NEEDS to be done publicly and openly. Daniel Ellsberg faced the music when he released the Pentagon papers after repeated attempts to go thru several elected officials. NONE of who would put those papers in the official record.

The right way is never the easy way. It has a cost in time, money, and blood. But it is one that should be done.

That is why I brought that original article up. Russia is not as well ground in the protection of dissent. Accountability is something everyone should hold out as a way to say 'see we are playing by the rules.' If they refuse to account for the whereabouts of a minor offender like this, what about the more politically dangerous prisoners? 

I'm done for now and am stepping out for a day before I say something gets the thread locked


Toral Stimins

You've opened a sewer now, A big one. Google Yaya Touré you say? And that coming from an American? At least, I presume with the South of the Mason/Dixon line, as it is unfamiliar to me.

Yaya Touré said he was racially abused by the Moscow public. And CSKA (the army club btw, as opposed to Dynamo - Internal Affairs, Spartak - Sports affairs, Torpedo - Car manufacturing) said he was making it up.

In this case it's a he-say, they-say story. As strangely enough, there's no evidence to be found. The game, as it was a CL game, was broadcasted live in a fair few countries, yet no country picked it up. It is Touré's word against CSKA's word.

Mario Balotelli walked out off the pitch in friendlies in Italy not so long ago, I don't hear you about those. But that was in Italy. Don't try to play a football card against me, you'll lose, day in day out. I eat, sleep and breath football like you do air.

There is no proof, nothing whatsoever that Yaya Touré was racially abused in the CSKA match. Yet the club was found guilty of it. There is nothing of evidence, nothing at all. UEFA officials were there, as they are at all CL matches, but they heard nothing. And yet, CSKA was found guilty. Mayhap, just mayhap, because they are Russian.

vtboy

Quote from: Toral Stimins on November 08, 2013, 10:14:32 AM
it's beyond reasonable doubt that Israel did that.
Source, please.
Quote
but hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian citizens killed for no other reason than they are not Jewish should be called as race murder.
Source, please.
Quote
That the US of A can and will invade the Netherlands (after all, it's only a fellow country in NATO) if an American is ever brought to trial for crimes against humanity?
Source, please.
Quote
In fact, the women who were forced into filing, had no plans of doing so.
Source, please.
Quote
Public Enemy, the band, has not been so much prosecuted in the US, but they have sure been harassed by politics, why?
Source, please.
Quote
it is no fair game for you to point anything out to Russia, America is just as much at fault.
So, one who is a citizen of a country that is not squeaky clean (by your lights) has no right to criticize the policies of another country? Very enlightened.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Toral Stimins on November 08, 2013, 11:19:28 AM
You've opened a sewer now, A big one. Google Yaya Touré you say? And that coming from an American? At least, I presume with the South of the Mason/Dixon line, as it is unfamiliar to me.

Yaya Touré said he was racially abused by the Moscow public. And CSKA (the army club btw, as opposed to Dynamo - Internal Affairs, Spartak - Sports affairs, Torpedo - Car manufacturing) said he was making it up.

In this case it's a he-say, they-say story. As strangely enough, there's no evidence to be found. The game, as it was a CL game, was broadcasted live in a fair few countries, yet no country picked it up. It is Touré's word against CSKA's word.

Mario Balotelli walked out off the pitch in friendlies in Italy not so long ago, I don't hear you about those. But that was in Italy. Don't try to play a football card against me, you'll lose, day in day out. I eat, sleep and breath football like you do air.

There is no proof, nothing whatsoever that Yaya Touré was racially abused in the CSKA match. Yet the club was found guilty of it. There is nothing of evidence, nothing at all. UEFA officials were there, as they are at all CL matches, but they heard nothing. And yet, CSKA was found guilty. Mayhap, just mayhap, because they are Russian.

Okay, I will break my silence on this.

One. Since I'm an American, I can't be objective. Yeah I read the bit in Italy, but if I pulled up every accusation of Racism that didn't cover your source I'd be typing forever. Did you look/read my cited source from world policy or just jump on the Yaya comment. I'm guessing you didn't.

Are you going to pull the 'White American Southerner' can't know racism card? I've had discrimination, try being Scotch/Protestant in an Irish Catholic school in Ireland in the 70s. I had dates get snubbed because I was White, and she wasn't and vice versa.

Everywhere there is discrimination. If you haven't suffered from it or had a friend suffer from it you're lucky.

You keep bring up tangents and I keep responding to them and you go further afield.

What, pray tell, does racism on a soccer pitch in Italy have to do with the failure to provide timely and accountable locations and state of health for a prisoner in Russia. Particularly one whose only crime is to suffer from a chronic lack of taste and/or common sense in how she protests in her own country?

Now, I'm done. I'll nit be posting any more in this tread for 24 hours.

Toral Stimins

Quote from: vtboy on November 08, 2013, 11:45:52 AM
Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.So, one who is a citizen of a country that is not squeaky clean (by your lights) has no right to criticize the policies of another country? Very enlightened.

Great contribution, I applaud you!

vtboy

I guess I should just assume you are an unbiased and unimpeachable source of verifiable information, rather than risk implying you might just be parroting rubbish gleaned from crackpot conspiracy websites. Sorry for being gullible that way.

Oniya

Quote from: Toral Stimins on November 08, 2013, 12:13:13 PM
Great contribution, I applaud you!

Please read the stickies in this section.  Asking for sources in this part of the forum is a valid point.
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I must express my dismay at my perception that many people are engaging in a competition of racing to the bottom in pointing out other countries societal ills as a defense of their own nations alleged failings.
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Quote from: Neysha on November 08, 2013, 01:30:27 PM
I must express my dismay at my perception that many people are engaging in a competition of racing to the bottom in pointing out other countries societal ills as a defense of their own nations alleged failings.


Agree - two wrongs don't make a right.


And how on earth did this thread drift from Pussy Riot and Russian prisons to discussing Yaya Touré and the alleged racist slurs of a Russian football spectator crowd...within the first page?

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Quote from: gaggedLouise on November 08, 2013, 01:36:15 PM

Agree - two wrongs don't make a right.


And how on earth did this thread drift from Pussy Riot and Russian prisons to discussing Yaya Touré and the alleged racist slurs of a Russian football spectator crowd...within the first page?

No idea, but in cases like these, it would be helpful to focus... like a laser beam perhaps, on the original topic at hand before it goes massively adrift in blood libeling each other for national transgressions.

For what it's not worth, Dashenka's initial post seems to be rather spot on IMHO, editorializing aside. It seems fairly likely to me that this poor lass was probably transferred to a different prison and the Russian authorities in charge simply aren't telling the media or the husband where she is, likely in an effort to avoid further scrutiny of her accommodations as opposed to the other possible interpretation, which would have her having been executed by the state and thrown in a forgotten ditch somewhere and thus vanished in a completely different sense of the term.
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Dashenka

Quote from: gaggedLouise on November 08, 2013, 01:36:15 PM

Agree - two wrongs don't make a right.


And how on earth did this thread drift from Pussy Riot and Russian prisons to discussing Yaya Touré and the alleged racist slurs of a Russian football spectator crowd...within the first page?


Because I get tired of the biased media attention Russia is getting globally and on Elliquiy. I stated why I think Nadezhda got transferred and in saying that I apparently said something to offend Callie, which was never my intention, merely to answer the question. Then the bashing began. What I only said from there on was that everything Russia is doing now, the Americans or Europeans have already done before. Just because this happens in Russia means it's big news and terrible and frankly, I'm sick and tired of Americans mostly blaming Russia for stuff America does as well. Putin was elected as president of Russia. He cares for what happens in Russia and what happens outside of Russia and what people think of him outside Russia is not important to him. Obviously Obama and Kerry were elected as president of the entire world.

How epic would the UK be if Cameron did that? Or how great would America be if Obama and Kerry got as much effort into ruling America as they do in ruling the rest of the world?


And one more thing...

Quote from: vtboy on November 08, 2013, 11:45:52 AM
Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.So, one who is a citizen of a country that is not squeaky clean (by your lights) has no right to criticize the policies of another country? Very enlightened.

Have you ever seen this tv show called 'the news'? If you deny that Israel is commiting crimes against humanity, you either have never watched or read the news, or you are ignorant or stupid.

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Pay very close attention to this.

The very next lump of personal insult, goalpost moving, special pleading or tu quoque that gets added to the steaming pile that this thread has turned into gets it locked. plus an official warning for the one who drops it.

Chris Brady

Uh, Dashenka, the amount of attention Russia is getting, good or bad, has been minimal compared to the various threads dealing with mostly North American issues.  Like Presidential issues/politics, attempted American Laws that will affect the world (SOPA and PIPA), U.S. Military threads...

There's a lot more America 'bashing' than any other country on this particular section of the board.

As for people worrying about the Pussy Riot band member, don't you think they're entitled?  Russia has not had a internationally clean record of human rights.  Yes, all countries have had abuses, even my home of Canada isn't exactly spotless (I'm remembering Somalia, and the fact that CNN got Canada to disband a special forces division on the actions of three men, which were pretty horrific), but until the mid to late 80's, Russia had quite a few horror stories coming from it.  Not to mention that moving a prisoner out of one prison to another for political reasons is pretty damn shady no matter who is doing it.  America, Canada, Brazil, Iran, Russia or any of the other 100+ countries we have on this wonderful water ball of mud we call home.
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Dashenka

Oh my God what does a girl have to do before people will understand that just because I understand why something happens I don't necessarily agree with it.

Also Americans bashing America is fine. Russians bashing Russia is fine. I could even live with Americans bashing Russia if they knew even a little bit of what's going on in Russia but the fact is that a lot of people have their opinion on Putin and Russia, which you are entitled to, but don't know the first thing about Russia. That's what bothers me.

I also think it's idiotic that they got send to prison in the first place but having experienced first hand the situation Russia is in now, explains a lot and THAT is something that doesn't ring home with a lot of people in the west.
Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals and I get my back into my living.

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gaggedLouise

Quote from: Neysha on November 08, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
No idea, but in cases like these, it would be helpful to focus... like a laser beam perhaps, on the original topic at hand before it goes massively adrift in blood libeling each other for national transgressions.

For what it's not worth, Dashenka's initial post seems to be rather spot on IMHO, editorializing aside. It seems fairly likely to me that this poor lass was probably transferred to a different prison and the Russian authorities in charge simply aren't telling the media or the husband where she is, likely in an effort to avoid further scrutiny of her accommodations as opposed to the other possible interpretation, which would have her having been executed by the state and thrown in a forgotten ditch somewhere and thus vanished in a completely different sense of the term.


For the record, I never said in this thread that I thought it was likely or "almost certain" that Nadzhezhda had been executed, had fallen into a coma or had been gang raped by the jail wardens. Only that the act of moving her to a completely undisclosed location was a foul move and a course of action that's been used in the past to run over a prisoner's rights - in the Soviet Union, and in other places.

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Quote from: Dashenka on November 08, 2013, 02:12:47 PM

Have you ever seen this tv show called 'the news'? If you deny that Israel is commiting crimes against humanity, you either have never watched or read the news, or you are ignorant or stupid.

If commonly accepted notions of civility are insufficient cause to refrain from ad hominem attacks, perhaps you should consider their implication that the maker has nothing of substance to say.

It is precisely because I read newspapers and watch broadcast news that my skepticism is aroused by statements that Israel is killing hundreds of Palestinians "for no other reason than that they are not Jewish which should be called race murder," the implication being that it is the policy of Israel to engage in the sort of ethnic cleansing that took place not that long ago in the Balkans, and is occurring today in North Africa. To be sure, Israel has used violence against Palestinians, sometimes with justification and sometimes without. I have yet to see any evidence that its purpose has ever been to exterminate Palestinians "because they are not Jewish." About 20% of the population of Israel is Arab, most of whom identify themselves as Palestinian, and nearly all of whom are either Israeli citizens or legal residents of Israel. More than 10% of the members of the Knesset are Arab citizens of Israel, as is one of Israel's Supreme Court justices. However heavy handed or oppressive you may think Israel's policies are with respect to the occupied territories, the suggestion that the nation is engaged in genocidal murder is far-fetched, to put the matter most kindly.

Similarly, because I follow the news, I am very curious about the source, if any, for the statement, "it's beyond reasonable doubt that Israel did it [i.e., murdered Arafat]." Though there is plenty of innuendo from those who see advantage in smearing Israel with the crime, I have yet to see any reported evidence to suggest involvement by Israel in the apparent poisoning. Nor does it make sense that Israel would have killed him. At the time of his death, Arafat, isolated in Ramalah, was little more than the titular head of an organization which had become moribund with factionalism and in-fighting. Israel did not assassinate Arafat when he had real influence. Why would it turn him into a martyr after he had devolved into impotence?

Then there was the comment about Israel "pull[ing] the 'we were almost killed off by the Germans' card." I am not one to assume anti-Semitism lies behind dispassionate criticisms of Israeli policy, many of which I share. However, reference to the holocaust as a "card," coupled with entirely unsubstantiated charges of genocidal animus and responsibility for Arafat's death, forces me to wonder just what really motivated these statements.

And, while I am on the subject of motive, there is also your suggestion that only someone who does not watch or read or understand the news could differ with your perception that "Israel is committing crimes against humanity." This is of a piece with the reflexive appeals of bigots to what "everyone knows," as in "everyone knows that gays are pedophiles," or "everyone knows that blacks are lazy and shiftless," or "everyone knows that Jewish bankers are conspiring to take over the world." Such incantations seek only to avoid thought and to shield prejudice from the sort of scrutiny which would show its factual vacuity.   

ShadowFox89

Quote from: Toral Stimins on November 08, 2013, 09:05:17 AMIt is appalling that she has no right to see anyone, or that her husband and lawyers have no right to see her or hear from her, but it is not much different from how the US treats their prisoners of war. And yes, it wasn't the start of the discussion, but you just opened that door very wide for me.

Big difference between suspected terrorists held as prisoners of war and one of your own citizens being given a kangaroo court trial then later transferred with no contact to her lawyer or family before or after the transfer.

We've tried closed GB, but people keep putting a huge fit up over it. Where do you suppose the prisoners go? Let free? Put into civilian penitentiaries? I'd be on of the first in line to argue that our (USA's) legal system needs an overhaul, but there's a world of difference between "This girl said something bad about our leader" and "these guys maybe likely possibly have planned to kill hundreds of people".

I seem to recall certain posters within this thread positing the theory that Israel was behind the chemical attacks on civilians in Syria. Which was found to be false. Hell, Russia has been sending more and more weapons to Syria ever since Assad was ordered to disarm the chemical weapons that we know about.

But, back to the topic on hand. There are a good deal of things going on in Russia that point back to the 'old ways'. Cracking down on personal liberties, political leaders acting like James Bond villains (Putin just needs a fluffy white cat to sit on his lap), reporters who write articles that have a negative view on the government dying mysteriously, etc. I'm half expecting Putin to announce that he is replacing the Russian Constitution at some point.
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Dashenka

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on November 09, 2013, 07:05:09 AM
Big difference between suspected terrorists held as prisoners of war and one of your own citizens being given a kangaroo court trial then later transferred with no contact to her lawyer or family before or after the transfer.

Hell, Russia has been sending more and more weapons to Syria ever since Assad was ordered to disarm the chemical weapons that we know about.

In style with this topic.... Source?

She was given a normal trial and found guilty. I don't agree with the laws but if you break the law, you get punishment. The reason why she's in prison wasn't because she said something about Putin but the location and the way they did it is illegal. Disgracing the church is a crime.
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I don't need to fight to prove I'm right and I don't need to be forgiven.

Callie Del Noire

#42
Okay, after taking time to cool off and think I guess I failed in my original and ongoing posts to point out WHY this concerned me.

I apologize, I let myself be distracted and tried to answer/comment on many issues way far afield from the orignal issue at hand. The fact that a woman has vanished within the system for something like a fortnight or more depending on which new source you trust.

Fourteen to eightteen days are the numbers I see most in the articles/blogs I've looked through. Just no comment from the official record.

Okay, for those of you who do NOT have a grounding in Western Government, that is a scary thing. Accountabilty in government is a big issue in the West and one of the reasons so many give the US and UK so much crap on their 'war on terror'. Accountabilty. I find it very disturbing that the family and the woman's lawyers cannot get any statement or update on her location. Over two weeks with no comment? That is chilling. Accountabilty is the BIGGEST flaw I see in our own current penal system as more loopholes and gaps are found. I haven't found a penal system outside of Sweden or Japan that doesn't need MAJOR reform. (SIDE BAR: We need to deprivatize our own system BADLY)

Do I think Putin is involved? No. I think someone further down the system just said something along the lines of 'F-them' and hasn't responded or filed the paperwork. Leaving her in limbo. It's happened here in the US, though when it does.. and it can be proven to have malice of forethought, typically someone loses their job and the family gets rich rich rich.

Side note.. since I can't find a source I trust.. what exactly DID the girls do in the church? I've heard they taped video in two different churchs in their 'costume' (the colored Baclavas) and did a prayer on the video asking God to remove Putin from office.. but anything beyond that (on either side) seems either too sedate or extreme to believe.

ShadowFox89

Quote from: Dashenka on November 09, 2013, 07:24:31 AM
In style with this topic.... Source?

She was given a normal trial and found guilty. I don't agree with the laws but if you break the law, you get punishment. The reason why she's in prison wasn't because she said something about Putin but the location and the way they did it is illegal. Disgracing the church is a crime.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57575885/pussy-riot-punk-band-remains-defiant-of-putins-russia/
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/mar/06/russian-punks-pussy-riot-putin-protest
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/2/pussy-riot-membermissingfornearlytwoweeksintransithusband.html

I specifically used three news sites that don't have a large bias here in America. No, I don't know about any of their reputations for reliability abroad. Frankly, I really don't care, as that's hearsay and any statements about such would be shifted due to opinion.
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Callie Del Noire

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on November 09, 2013, 02:32:55 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57575885/pussy-riot-punk-band-remains-defiant-of-putins-russia/
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/mar/06/russian-punks-pussy-riot-putin-protest
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/2/pussy-riot-membermissingfornearlytwoweeksintransithusband.html

I specifically used three news sites that don't have a large bias here in America. No, I don't know about any of their reputations for reliability abroad. Frankly, I really don't care, as that's hearsay and any statements about such would be shifted due to opinion.

Thank you, that clears a bit up for me. I still think the girls suffered from lack of bad taste but that isn't criminal hear and none of those are as extreme as I had heard.

Toral Stimins

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on November 09, 2013, 02:52:55 PM
Thank you, that clears a bit up for me. I still think the girls suffered from lack of bad taste but that isn't criminal hear and none of those are as extreme as I had heard.

But that's the problem, we all look at something that might or might not be criminal where we live or come from. In Russia, what they did, was a criminal offense. And so they were brought to justice. No matter how bad we think it is. In the Netherlands you can smoke weed sort of legally. But in many other countries it's a criminal offense. We Dutch think that's strange. But that's how countries work.

(btw, apologies for how I was last night)

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Toral Stimins on November 09, 2013, 02:58:35 PM
But that's the problem, we all look at something that might or might not be criminal where we live or come from. In Russia, what they did, was a criminal offense. And so they were brought to justice. No matter how bad we think it is. In the Netherlands you can smoke weed sort of legally. But in many other countries it's a criminal offense. We Dutch think that's strange. But that's how countries work.

(btw, apologies for how I was last night)

I understand. To me, as as christian, it's weird that I cannot visit the inside of a Mosque, but that is their way. I get it on one level but on another I don't see it as 'fair/rational'.

Likewise I don't see how this protest on separating church and state is any worse than the awful video Madonna did YEARS ago  in a church. I understand on an intellectual level that my 'foundation' of things is different but my gut still goes 'this is stupid' and wonder why they didn't just put the girls in a minimum security facilty and forget about them for 2 years? The PR angle of this is drawing more and more attention on somehting that could have been 'ignored' away by putting them somewhere quiet and secure. Simply saying 'here she is on the phone, and she'll be at prison X next week' would have done WONDERS for keeping this low key.

gaggedLouise

I think the point they wanted to make was not just the Russian church being supported by the state, but how the church is paying back and offering definite support for Putin and his regime. In that sense, the way they were jackhammered in court proved them right - if one is ready to see that the court was playing down to the wishes of the church and (more or less by proxy) of Putin.

That's not to say that Putin or anyone else in the Kremlin personally would have ordered the verdict, but the court certainly knew what the regime wanted. Nadzhezhda and the others are walking in a long line of Russian prisoners of conscience and martyrs.

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Toral Stimins

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on November 09, 2013, 03:19:54 PM
I understand. To me, as as christian, it's weird that I cannot visit the inside of a Mosque, but that is their way. I get it on one level but on another I don't see it as 'fair/rational'.

Likewise I don't see how this protest on separating church and state is any worse than the awful video Madonna did YEARS ago  in a church. I understand on an intellectual level that my 'foundation' of things is different but my gut still goes 'this is stupid' and wonder why they didn't just put the girls in a minimum security facilty and forget about them for 2 years? The PR angle of this is drawing more and more attention on somehting that could have been 'ignored' away by putting them somewhere quiet and secure. Simply saying 'here she is on the phone, and she'll be at prison X next week' would have done WONDERS for keeping this low key.

Couldn't agree with you more. Which leads directly to the second half of the thread title, return to the 'good old days'. I fear it's nothing something we'll never understand, how some countries work.

Toral Stimins


gaggedLouise

Yep.

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/missing-pussy-riot-member-found-in-siberian-hospital/news/2013/11/16/78794

The piece quotes an open letter from her, written at an early time during her hunger strike. From the hospital, she told her husband she has not been beaten during her strike or afterwards. Hmm, good.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: gaggedLouise on November 18, 2013, 01:13:39 AM
Yep.

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/missing-pussy-riot-member-found-in-siberian-hospital/news/2013/11/16/78794

The piece quotes an open letter from her, written at an early time during her hunger strike. From the hospital, she told her husband she has not been beaten during her strike or afterwards. Hmm, good.

Now, would it have been so bad to say this twenty something days ago? Back in the 80s during the h block hunger strikes the Brits were always clear and open about the strikers conditions. It was a political mess but hiding folks, even if it's due to beuracractic apathy made this worse than it had to be. 

I don't get why in case like this they don't go with the pleasant but firm approach.

ShadowFox89

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on November 18, 2013, 10:08:07 AMI don't get why in case like this they don't go with the pleasant but firm approach.

Pleasant but firm in Eastern Europe usually means either the food, the drink, or hand around your throat :P
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Callie Del Noire

Quote from: ShadowFox89 on November 18, 2013, 01:50:59 PM
Pleasant but firm in Eastern Europe usually means either the food, the drink, or hand around your throat :P

I know.. but that is what my gut asks. You make martyrs.. they grow rebellions. If you simply use the law as written to quietly shuffle them through their sentences they have less leverage to use against your regime.

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