The Struggles of the Politically 'Purple'

Started by Twisted Crow, March 04, 2017, 07:39:06 PM

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Twisted Crow

I don't typically get a chance to get objective or self-introspective takes at LGBT+ related stuff very often. ContraPoints seemed to be as close as I am going to find in that regard, for a while. One that seemed to take an open-minded look at the problems people could be facing.

I thought that channel got into some trouble for something recently, or was that someone else? Then again, YouTube is getting crazy on it's own money makers... again. ::)

Tolvo

Well usually she gets in trouble when she very thoughtlessly posts about nonbinary people or endorses something about how trans people shouldn't transition and are just men, the recent stuff was over her platforming a Truscum Buck Angel who outs and deadnames other trans people, famously Lana Wachowski(Of the famous Wachowski sisters creators of the Matrix and various other things). Buck spends a lot of time working with TERF's(Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists) on twitter. Truscum are also known as Trans-Medicalists, the general thing is they want to gatekeep who can be trans and consider it that unless you fit their specific model of what a trans person is you are not truly trans which Contra commonly flirts with. It's why I usually advise people to not herald her as good as she's anything but, and pretty constantly screws up and blames it on everyone else like her now infamous claimed of being the last of the old school trans generation that non-binary people didn't exist during(Note I came out before Contra, she's only about 30, it is 100% a lie on her part). But it is in line with kind of her brand, her whole thing is trying to make trans politics digestible for people who are far right but it just often ends up making people who still use slurs and hate us claim to be progressives and leftists as they do it. Most people I know these days immediately distrust cis people and even some other trans people when they say they love Contra though many just don't see all the shit she does in public.

Skynet

When I linked to ContraPoints I did it on account that said YT video was one of the few of its kind which showcased problems with incel culture while showing an understanding look to the otherwise less toxic people who get manipulated into said space. In hindsight she was likely not the best messenger to use, and I'm sorry for not considering this at the time.

Remiel

Quote from: Skynet on November 29, 2019, 03:01:21 PM
When I linked to ContraPoints I did it on account that said YT video was one of the few of its kind which showcased problems with incel culture while showing an understanding look to the otherwise less toxic people who get manipulated into said space. In hindsight she was likely not the best messenger to use, and I'm sorry for not considering this at the time.

That's the thing.  You don't change people's minds by screaming at them, by yelling how wrong they are.  You change minds by trying to understand them, even if you don't agree with them.  I think she certainly made a noble effort at that in the video that Skynet linked to. 

Twisted Crow

This is similar to why I sometimes bring up people like Dr. Shaym, actually. Sometimes I feel that some of points made by those like him have considerable meat for many sides to chew on at the table. The problem is when one slaps the others at said table with that information, in the spirit of "So, there!"

It doesn't magically make the point invalid, but the attitude is rather counterproductive. If I am going to be an asshole about something, it usually doesn't make others want to listen. It doesn't matter how "right" I am in that position.

Twisted Crow

To be clear, I'm not saying the ContraPoints is right about everything. But I sometimes have similar criticisms about said "slap" attitude in these little 'information warfare' situations on YT.

Twisted Crow

I am continously blindsided by my right-wing father and grandfather in politic discussions, constantly discouraged from playing devil's advocate. These are not only for either liberal or leftist arguments, but even in defense of some conservative or libertarian ideals. Topics like abortion, racism, sexism, the Constitution, religion, Freedom of Speech, why it is basically wrong to be masculine at all now, the list goes on. I love my family, but there is a reason I hate the arguments I see them and others make.

Take abortion and my problems with it versus most conservative stances on it. Their issue is typically that abortion is a sin against God. As someone that goes the lines between agnostic and atheism, I don't care about it being a "sin". What I do care about is that (provided that abortion is legal) a woman can just opt out of parenthood but, practically speaking, I can not. Even more worrying, there are legal precedents set by some states that a woman can even sue her sperm donor for child support. It also doesn't even matter if this sperm is stolen, either. This is why I care about things like abortion. I want to know what the hell my rights are. How can I have sex and still legally opt out of parenthood? Hell, last I checked in California: a woman can just claim that her baby is mine and it is up to me to take a DNA test to prove that I am not. If I don't take that test within the time given, then the court can just decide that I am the father, even after I have later evidence to prove otherwise.

This is the stuff I care about, but no... lets talk about why God doesn't approve of it. What is infuriating is that it works given the right-wing Christian domain. Just as left wing media loves hijacking words and broadening them so openly to a point where they lose meaning, I deal with Fox News regulars thumping away at me with their bibles. Just as much as the progressive movement zealously attacks the very core of Freedom of Speech itself with nauseating micro-litigating, conservatives frustrate me by shit out of nowhere. Gays are bad, abortion is bad, therefore the law of the land must be Abraham God's law to further legislate human behavior.

I am tired of both parties giving the government too much control over my life. Look at it this way... the roads they tax you to drive on are often fucked up and in need of repair. The messed up roads damage your car, which you are also taxed annually to own and drive. You have to pay to fix that damage with the money you earn, which they also tax once you earn it. Basically, you are deadass being taxed by the government for paying your taxes to the government.

People are having laughs and/or watching the news posturing this generation's Watergate and everyone is eating it up like it's the next reality show. Meanwhile, I feel like the only one connecting any dots. Or at least, trying to.

Remiel

It sounds like you identify as a Libertarian.

And I would add that, if so, you are not alone.  There are plenty of people, mostly younger males, who are fed up with the socially regressive policies of the Republican Party (who kowtow to religious fundamentalists and upper class/corporate interests) and yet are alarmed by the zealotry and "cancel culture" of the left. 

I used to identify as a Libertarian, but nowadays I take the view that there are some elements of living in a civilized society that cannot be provided (or, at least, cannot be provided fairly)  by the private sector.  Hospitals, public education, national parks and wildlife preserves, police and fire services, and the military would fall under this umbrella.  I think the case can certainly be made that privatization of jails has been a humanitarian disaster as well.  I think paying taxes is just a burden that a society must endure, if said society adopts the view that human beings have a right to health, safety, and the opportunity to pursue the American dream, regardless who they are.

I am curious to know your opinions on income inequality, and if you think it is a problem?

Twisted Crow

I also used to claim Libertarian but hesitate to claim that label for similar reasons. I merely bring up taxes as a metaphor, though I do think we have some rather redundant ways of bleeding money from the people to make up for the government's long-lasting trend of spending money that it doesn't have. This is where I almost jump in bed with Conservative Republicans until they end up doing similar shit (as Vekseid points out much earlier in this thread). Some conservatives are not very conservative. I will at least praise the ones I have seen calling this out on their own. I usually have to logically trap a lefty into a corner to get them to admit that the Democratic Party doesn't always do things in the interest of it's people they are supposed to be representing. And the mental gymnastics are rather annoying given that I always have to weed out their overwhelming bias first.

But I feel that some of that money that the gov't collects does go toward where it belongs, like in the examples you mention. But I feel that we rob Peter to save Paul too much. Line out a budget within our government's needs and stick with it. If we only have so much money to put back into this country so that it functions correctly, then we need to stick with that plan. But when I look around, I just don't see my government sticking to the plan. I see some of the same holes in the same streets for over a decade. Where is the money going? Hospitals charge you about $50 for something like an IV bag in their bill. Again, where is the money going? To top it off, we have too many pointless laws and ways for our police to slap us with just so that the government can gain revenue. Some examples? There should be no law that requires adult drivers to put on a seat belt. Me putting on my seat belt (which I still do) doesn't protect you from me on the roads. It doesn't even protect me from you. It is supposed to protect me from me. But... 'click it or ticket', one more way for my state to reach into my pocket with an arbitrary rule that serves no real purpose. Another example is marijuana, which is good that we have been wising up and decriminalizing it (in some states). Just legalize it. Hell... that is one thing I might support the government taxing, as a matter of fact. Take power away from drug dealing, the government collects revenue, and people have their weed. It's win-win, unless you're a weed dealer.  ^-^

On income disparities, I feel mixed in places. In the State of Texas, for example, minimum wage is around $7.25 an hour. It has been this way since 2009, if I recall. Since then, our cost of living is much higher since then. Affordable housing being the thing that's been kicking our asses for a while. It costs too much to even live in a shithole apartment. This cost goes up about every year while I get paid only a little more after some months of working at wherever. It is simply untenable. Which is why I roll my eyes at my parents and grandparents for digging at us millenials for being lazy and lacking ambition. When, in reality, we are having to work harder just to get by. The American dollar isn't worth nearly as much as it used to be.

In the other hand, I think part of our problem is that we are eating too much of our middle class instead of our rich elite. I know a few leftist friends of mine that "don't see the harm" in taxing business entities as people. I have to remind them that this hurts small business owners more than mega corporations. The guy that grosses 150k from his business shouldn't be taxed as if that money was his. Some of that money is going to go back to the business. He should be taxed according to what he actually pays himself from that business. If he pays himself 40k, then that is what he earned that year. The rest are for his personnel, inventory, etc. and shouldn't be taxed unless he touches that money for any other reason.

Twisted Crow

I am kinda curious now about what the state of the site might be like in 2020 when Trump (likely?) wins again. I remember 2016, and those weren't very fun times for me. I look at Biden and Trump and feel about the same as I did in 2016. Granted, Biden has more charisma than Clinton. He also does nothing that speak to my interest. I hate everything Taylor Swift says, and I just as soon write her name on a ballot than vote for Biden, Trump, Ms. Native American or... really anybody. Buttigieg almost has me. But even he spins the wheel too much rather than taking a hammer and smashing it to pieces.  -_-

Oniya

I'm going to point out that Warren was surprised herself by the DNA test, and has since apologized for believing something that her older relatives had told her was true.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Twisted Crow

Yeah, I did read about that. My frustration around her puts me in a vexing position. Did she benefit from that before all this? If so, I am still upset that people like her can just apologize and let the media handwave her off when if it were Republican or a moderate, they'd be irredeemable once the media was through them. On the other (more frustrating) hand, my own personal beliefs in situations like this should push me to back off of Warren for exactly that reason. As I have said before many times, to rob one of their choice in redemption is to rob them of their very humanity. If I deny her of redemption, than am I any better than the others that despise in doing just that? When is a time for justice and when is a time to forgive and allow people to learn? That contingency should be determined by something other than what team you play for. But I know not where this contingency should be; hence my frustration.  -_-

So I suppose that maybe I am more angry that this accountability isn't very fair or equal across the board.  A big reason why I hate journalism and how it is to be taken in. It's often about what team they play for as opposed to the deeds themselves when the ideals of justice should be consistent. If one person can just say "my bad", then we shouldn't be able to call a lynch mob on someone else for making a similar mistake. :-\

Seriously, Elliquiy needs a thinking emote. Like this one. 🤔

ReijiTabibito

Not sure if or how people will respond to this statement, but my take on being a Libertarian is the same as my take on Communism - any attempt at it, as it is proposed in theory, is doomed to failure because it ignores an essential facet of human nature.  Milton Friedman, the economist, used to love to point out that Communism (or whatever interchangeable word he used for it at the time) fails because it refuses to recognize self-interest, and that a society built around self-interest would be better than one that is built around its total absence.  I don't agree with him fully on the matter - a society whose entire organizing principle is self-interest can become just as bad, just in a different way - but I do agree that recognizing self-interest exists and accounting for it is essential in dealing with societies.

Trump is likely to win in 2020 because the economy is doing well, and barring any major torpedoes hitting the administration before then, the incumbent always tends to win when the economy is doing well.  Trump's major enemy is not any of the Democrats in this race - though Joe Biden could give him decent competition - but himself and his inability to restrain himself from fulminating and saying stupid things on Twitter.

I'm looking at this Democrat field and getting a 2012 Republican field vibe - subbing in Biden for Romney (the guy out to an early lead, of whom was asked 'really?  This is the guy?'), I think you're going to see a carousel of the media going from one candidate to the next, before finally settling for Biden and whoever his running mate ends up being (maybe Buttigieg?).  It's no secret to me why Biden has remained durable throughout this entire process - no Democrat has ever won without the overwhelming support of the black community, and that whole bloc is in Biden's camp.  And yes, it really does come down to 'I was Barack Obama's vice president!  Don't you remember how genteel and suave Obama was?'  I found an article in...I want to say The Atlantid?  Where the writer basically sat down with blacks to ask about 2020, and the overwhelming response was Biden, but when she asked why, she specified that 'the reason can't involve Barack Obama.'  She didn't get a lot of coherent answers with that stipulation.

(In my opinion, that is a sign of a cult of personality - that even the guys surrounding the cult-figure get this sort of afterglow that boosts them up in the minds of the cultists.)

Twisted Crow

I seriously want someone to try to sell me on Buttigieg. Make me believe. Come, Democrats. Make me your brother, for once!

TheGlyphstone

Quote from: Dallas on December 19, 2019, 11:21:40 PM
I seriously want someone to try to sell me on Buttigieg. Make me believe. Come, Democrats. Make me your brother, for once!

Beats me. Any argument I could make for him, Biden already has a stronger claim on.

ReijiTabibito

There is one argument I have made with my friends about Buttigieg that can't be made about Biden.  Biden is a Silent Generation from Delaware who has sat in Congress and in the halls of the elite (the Senate specifically) for the last 4 decades.  He's old.  He's out of touch.  While I personally like his 'No Malarkey' slogan, that tells you more about who I am than it does about him.  He's remained largely insulated from the events that have affected the youngest set in our nation - the War on Terror; the 2008 subprime housing crisis; the ballooning of student debt because of the exploding number of college administrators; the hollowing out of what used to be the industrial heartland of America.

Buttigieg, on the other hand, is young, and has seen firsthand a lot of those things.  He served in the military in Afghanistan, and even after coming out as gay in supposedly homophobic Indiana, was re-elected as mayor of South Bend with over 80% of the vote.  (Either that puts paid to the notion that Hoosiers are homophobic, or it says that he did a bang-up enough job that people didn't care.)  He's the mayor of a (fairly) small town in the Midwest - the part of the country that is most affected by de-industrialization, the housing crisis, and the opioid epidemic.

I'm not a Democrat - but even I'm looking at the field going 'really? A bunch of grandparents are going to tell us how to fix the country?'  My general distrust of Boomers isn't because I believe they're greedy economic vampires - as you might hear some say - only interested in extracting wealth for themselves.  My general distrust of that particular generation comes from the fact that they have led a gilded life from the very start.  They grew up in the postwar economic boom, benefited from the economic expansion of the 1980s under Reagan...my gripe with Elizabeth Warren's 'We're going to get you a scholarship to college, yay!' isn't that I believe people don't need to go to college, but rather that college has gotten twice as expensive without getting twice as good, and your plan does nothing to deal with that problem.  I'm citing numbers offered by Andrew Yang, but in 1986 the ratio of professors to administrators on college campuses was 5:2 - but by 2007, barely twenty years later, that ratio was now 4:5.

Buttigieg doesn't have memories of the 'good old golden days' to conjure up to imagine how they're going to fix the problem, and thus isn't going to be susceptible to their allure.  If that makes sense.

Twisted Crow

That might be a good summary of why I am quicker to trust him than Biden. If he won, I don't I'd mind much. Though my fear with Buttigieg somehow winning (though I don't think he will), that he could end up taking that convertible drive in Dallas at some point.  :-\

TheGlyphstone

Quote from: ReijiTabibito on December 19, 2019, 11:42:38 PM
There is one argument I have made with my friends about Buttigieg that can't be made about Biden.  Biden is a Silent Generation from Delaware who has sat in Congress and in the halls of the elite (the Senate specifically) for the last 4 decades.  He's old.  He's out of touch.  While I personally like his 'No Malarkey' slogan, that tells you more about who I am than it does about him.  He's remained largely insulated from the events that have affected the youngest set in our nation - the War on Terror; the 2008 subprime housing crisis; the ballooning of student debt because of the exploding number of college administrators; the hollowing out of what used to be the industrial heartland of America.

Buttigieg, on the other hand, is young, and has seen firsthand a lot of those things.  He served in the military in Afghanistan, and even after coming out as gay in supposedly homophobic Indiana, was re-elected as mayor of South Bend with over 80% of the vote.  (Either that puts paid to the notion that Hoosiers are homophobic, or it says that he did a bang-up enough job that people didn't care.)  He's the mayor of a (fairly) small town in the Midwest - the part of the country that is most affected by de-industrialization, the housing crisis, and the opioid epidemic.

I'm not a Democrat - but even I'm looking at the field going 'really? A bunch of grandparents are going to tell us how to fix the country?'  My general distrust of Boomers isn't because I believe they're greedy economic vampires - as you might hear some say - only interested in extracting wealth for themselves.  My general distrust of that particular generation comes from the fact that they have led a gilded life from the very start.  They grew up in the postwar economic boom, benefited from the economic expansion of the 1980s under Reagan...my gripe with Elizabeth Warren's 'We're going to get you a scholarship to college, yay!' isn't that I believe people don't need to go to college, but rather that college has gotten twice as expensive without getting twice as good, and your plan does nothing to deal with that problem.  I'm citing numbers offered by Andrew Yang, but in 1986 the ratio of professors to administrators on college campuses was 5:2 - but by 2007, barely twenty years later, that ratio was now 4:5.

Buttigieg doesn't have memories of the 'good old golden days' to conjure up to imagine how they're going to fix the problem, and thus isn't going to be susceptible to their allure.  If that makes sense.

I hadn't really looked at him that way, and it makes sense now that I do. I was only judging the two by their policy lanes and the voter-demographic they're competing for, but I can see a big difference in the driving mindset they'd have.

Twisted Crow

Correction, because my phone sucks:

If he won, I don't think I'd mind much.


Though, I'd be afraid for him.

Oniya

The next Dem president is going to have to do a lot of rebuilding before they even get to their own policies.

Our relations with our allies are currently in the toilet.
Our trade agreements are currently crap for both farmers and manufacturing.
Our human rights reputation is in shambles.

If we have another four years of this, you'll see a lot of people scared for their very lives.  LGBTQ people.  People of color.  People with chronic illnesses.  Poor people.  Women.  Jewish and Muslim people.

If any of your friends fall into any of these categories, Trump needs to go.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Twisted Crow

The fear I have on the next Dem POTUS is the inevitable drastic pendulum swing. Like this President and the one before him, I am afraid that the next one will overcompensate beyond what is necessary.

HannibalBarca

QuoteThe next Dem president is going to have to do a lot of rebuilding before they even get to their own policies.

That's been the norm for decades now, unfortunately.
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Oniya

Quote from: HannibalBarca on December 22, 2019, 11:32:18 AM
That's been the norm for decades now, unfortunately.

True enough.  Getting back to 'center' is likely to take the full term.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

TheGlyphstone

And then the next GOP president will undo all of that progress.