Kingdom Supremacy[Non-Con Human](rules Lite, Grand Strategy)

[Ontan]

Hope you all had / are having an excellent holiday season!

The pagan solstice feasting has officially ended over here, so it’s back to the questions:

• What does trade power actually do? I understand the mechanics (National Order -> elect a neighbouring nation -> sum both faction’s trade power stats), but I don’t think it actually states what the payoff is. Do you simply gain gold equivalent to the number of trade points?
• Regarding the Tech Web and prerequisites: do you need all preceding technologies to unlock something, or just one? For example, does Fishing require both Economics and Engineering, or only one of them? As Joanie demonstrates (apologies for singling you out!), it can have a massive effect of faction creation: the potential to start with something like Capital Ventures or Physics just annihilates the other two starting traits. 
• Just to check my understanding of combat is right: using the Assume Command action applies to combat on the next turn. Also, Manoeuvre and Assume Command are meant to be used in conjunction as a sort of super-command...?

Edit: Just noticed that Joanie has updated her nation's info. The Rivan Empire is looking good! I also love that you tied in the other factions in Valeria's history  :-)

[Remiel]

been a busy week, but I definitely plan on submitting a nation / character this weekend.

[Jezabelle]

Hope you all had / are having an excellent holiday season!

The pagan solstice feasting has officially ended over here, so it’s back to the questions:

• What does trade power actually do? I understand the mechanics (National Order -> elect a neighbouring nation -> sum both faction’s trade power stats), but I don’t think it actually states what the payoff is. Do you simply gain gold equivalent to the number of trade points? You gain the sum of both factions' trade power in your gold income, so it behooves anyone to trade with high trade power nations
• Regarding the Tech Web and prerequisites: do you need all preceding technologies to unlock something, or just one? For example, does Fishing require both Economics and Engineering, or only one of them? As Joanie demonstrates (apologies for singling you out!), it can have a massive effect of faction creation: the potential to start with something like Capital Ventures or Physics just annihilates the other two starting traits.  This is true, but given the slow speed of tech acquisition it also puts you at a far expanse on the web--and makes you make important decisions about what kind of history your nation has had.  Rather than seeing them come into their own we want to begin with nations that have a storied history and developed country, then mash them together into the scrape.
• Just to check my understanding of combat is right: using the Assume Command action applies to combat on the next turn. Also, Manoeuvre and Assume Command are meant to be used in conjunction as a sort of super-command...? Maneuver's commander refers to the person making the Warfare roll for that army, whereas Assume Command refers to literally attaching yourself to the unit--thanks for pointing out that ambiguity, with that explanation do you think there's a better wording I could utilize?

Responses inserted directly into the text.

edit: yeah it does happen on the next turn, to fix (one of) the Shindo problem(s) wherein you could simply meta a turn to counter a movement.  Here, you're needing to make certain calls a whole turn in advance, somewhat lessening that issue.

[Ontan]

Thanks for the replies! I erroneously assumed that each tech required all the preceding ones (e.g. Great Siege Weapons needing Siege Weapons and Algebra), not just a single adjoining one. I admit, it’s a bit surprising that we don’t, because it now renders the other faction traits literally useless. For instance:

Mercantile trait: +4 Trade Power
Scientific Trait (selecting Trade Caravans and Capital Ventures): +5 trade power, +6 gold, +1 trade partner, enables trade other neutral territories, immediate access to adjoining techs (Apothecaries, Planned Economy, Trade Fleet, and Logistics).

It’s a similar deal for the Artistic trait. If I’m going for a prestige path, I might as well start the game with +3 research and +1 building bonus (along with trade and fleet bonuses), and then aim for Monuments. System-wise, it puts a faction in a far stronger position; roleplay-wise, it still depicts a culturally-inclined society of temple builders anyway.

Edit to clarify: looking back, that all sounds a lot saltier than intended. None of the above is meant as a complaint: even if every single faction ended up going with the scientific trait, the game wouldn’t actually be any worse off for it. I guess I’m just now considering whether to change my own faction’s trait, or whether to stick with my original choice.



In other news, the holiday season means no work… and you know what that means: Ontan suddenly has too much time on his hands.

large images ahead

If only for reference, here’s the ‘slow’ version of the tech web, where advanced techs required all preceding techs. Basically, the only difference is the inclusion of arrows to denote prerequisites:

I’ll also try to get my character written up, and my faction otherwise finalised over the next day or so.

[Jezabelle]

Thanks for the replies! I erroneously assumed that each tech required all the preceding ones (e.g. Great Siege Weapons needing Siege Weapons and Algebra), not just a single adjoining one. I admit, it’s a bit surprising that we don’t, because it now renders the other faction traits literally useless. For instance:

Mercantile trait: +4 Trade Power
Scientific Trait (selecting Trade Caravans and Capital Ventures): +5 trade power, +6 gold, +1 trade partner, enables trade other neutral territories, immediate access to adjoining techs (Apothecaries, Planned Economy, Trade Fleet, and Logistics).

It’s a similar deal for the Artistic trait. If I’m going for a prestige path, I might as well start the game with +3 research and +1 building bonus (along with trade and fleet bonuses), and then aim for Monuments. System-wise, it puts a faction in a far stronger position; roleplay-wise, it still depicts a culturally-inclined society of temple builders anyway.

Edit to clarify: looking back, that all sounds a lot saltier than intended. None of the above is meant as a complaint: even if every single faction ended up going with the scientific trait, the game wouldn’t actually be any worse off for it. I guess I’m just now considering whether to change my own faction’s trait, or whether to stick with my original choice.



In other news, the holiday season means no work… and you know what that means: Ontan suddenly has too much time on his hands.

large images ahead

If only for reference, here’s the ‘slow’ version of the tech web, where advanced techs required all preceding techs. Basically, the only difference is the inclusion of arrows to denote prerequisites:

I’ll also try to get my character written up, and my faction otherwise finalised over the next day or so.

That's a beautiful image tech web image!

My intention was for the scientific to potentially get an edge but to have a lower ceiling--those techs don't go away because the Scientific civ started with them, but the Scientific civ will never get that trait bonus.

Can you think of any variable-changes-only fix that would well address this issue, either knocking Scientific down one tech or jacking up the other traits' number(s)?

[JoanieSappho]

Regarding the traits, I'm going to probably ramble a bit.
Artistic seems to be the best off of the non-scientific traits - that +3 per artwork is an ongoing boost that can't really ever be matched, and prestige counts for a fair bit. Starting with Physics gives me a better start, yes, but I'm still worried that an Artistic civ is going to get ahead of me in prestige and basically stay there forever.
Mercantile, though, does seem to be a bit behind the other two. Perhaps give it +1 trade partner and/or a little bit of a boost to taxing - Scientific gives a big initial boost, Artistic basically doubles the prestige per year from artwork, Mercantile could perhaps give a little more gold per taxation to keep it viable?

[Jezabelle]

Regarding the traits, I'm going to probably ramble a bit.
Artistic seems to be the best off of the non-scientific traits - that +3 per artwork is an ongoing boost that can't really ever be matched, and prestige counts for a fair bit. Starting with Physics gives me a better start, yes, but I'm still worried that an Artistic civ is going to get ahead of me in prestige and basically stay there forever.
Mercantile, though, does seem to be a bit behind the other two. Perhaps give it +1 trade partner and/or a little bit of a boost to taxing - Scientific gives a big initial boost, Artistic basically doubles the prestige per year from artwork, Mercantile could perhaps give a little more gold per taxation to keep it viable?

The thing is, would a Mercantile player be upset if they wound up with one more potential trade partner than there are other nations in the game?  It would let them get to max partners faster but kind of nullify the reward of some parts of the tech tree.

Hmmm, I do like the idea of Mercantile having an internal bonus as well as a trade bonus.

How about +¤1 for every 2 regions controlled?  Every region already grants +¤1 in taxes, so rather than literally doubling that amount I'd 1.5 it.  Of course that'd make odd numbered regional acquisitions less meaningful it'd still make even numbered acquisitions more meaningful for them.

If that change is made should Mercantile also gain +1 Trade Partner, or will the internal boost to gold (beginning at +¤2) be sufficient?

[Ontan]

Again, there’s nothing actually wrong with everyone picking Scientific for their faction. The game wouldn’t be any less fun because of it, and there’s still a lot of customisation about which techs to pick, so all this discussion is somewhat academic. Still, just for the sake of balance…

Rambling ahead

Artistic seems to be the best off of the non-scientific traits - that +3 per artwork is an ongoing boost that can't really ever be matched, and prestige counts for a fair bit.

A few thoughts on the Artistic Trait:

• Prestige only grants a bonus to research, and maybe a modest bonus to military. Starting with Physics and Algebra does all that anyway (+3 research, +1 fleet, and more trade power to spend on units) with some extra benefits to boot.
• The Artistic trait also expensive in terms of opportunity cost, as it only does something when you spend a personal action: if I want to exploit it, I have to forgo other actions such as development or commanding armies. Again, compare it to Scientific, where you get a bunch of bonuses automatically rather than having to ‘work’ for it.
• However, the biggest problem with Artistic is that it only takes effect at the end of each year, which imposes a big delay on any benefit. In other words, it’s only useful if you’re able to forecast prestige targets for the year after the one you take actions. Similarly, it confers no benefit whatsoever for the first 4 turns of the game, during the initial gold-rush for neutral territory.

Lastly, note that Monuments generate +10 prestige per turn. That’s +40 a year, compared to an absolute maximum of +24 per year from artistic (i.e. every single action spent creating art). Admittedly there are the added complexities of buildings (getting the material, using up a construction slot), but the benefit is almost double, and you haven’t given up a faction trait to get it. An Artistic faction will get an impressive boost in years 2-3, but it then becomes irrelevant when Monuments enter play anyway.

My intention was for the scientific to potentially get an edge but to have a lower ceiling--those techs don't go away because the Scientific civ started with them, but the Scientific civ will never get that trait bonus.

Are you expecting people to exhaust the entire tech tree, though? Even if that happens, we’re talking a small, highly situational endgame bonus compared to a guaranteed head-start. If 4X games have taught me anything, it's that half the civilisations are usually buried (or hopelessly behind) within the first third of gameplay.

Can you think of any variable-changes-only fix that would well address this issue?

Well... no. I actually had an idea for a complete overhaul, but it's going waaaay off script, so I won't be offended if you trash it immediately.

Faction Traits

The idea is that traits should define how the civilisation proceeds on its quest to greatness: rather than just getting a passive bonus, it rewards a strategy which actively pursues it. Additionally, this system means that players aren’t forced to “give up” on a certain aspect of the game just because they didn’t specialise in it from the onset. Prestige should still be relevant, even if you’re concentrating on a warlike strategy; conversely, you shouldn’t be consigned to a hopeless thrashing just because you didn’t go a 5-Warfare character and someone else did. So, here’s my idea:

Aggressive factions (remember, gold & trade is only ever used for military units) get a means of obtaining prestige, which they’d otherwise have to give up on. Obviously they won’t be able to compete with a dedicated Artistic / Monuments player, but it might be enough to let them jostle for second place with their neighbours. It also means they at least have a chance of getting some research done, if only due to prestige slowly accruing:

• Mercantile: Performing the Trade action generates 2 Prestige.
• Warlike: Performing the Raid action generates 2 Prestige.

Peaceful factions earn a small gratuity of gold from their associated action. It’s not enough to compete with the armies of warlike civilisations, but padding out the treasury means they can at least call upon mercenaries as a one-off emergency measure:

• Scientific: Performing the Research action generates 1¤.
• Artistic: Performing the Create Art action generates 1¤.

Using this method, specialising according to faction trait would still make you the best at something, but you can at least dabble in the other fields. It means that factions aren't too homogenised, as they’re strongly incentivised to stick to different playstyles, but there’s still some utility to using their weaker actions due to the accumulation of little windfalls.

That's a beautiful image tech web image!

Glad you approve  :-) It's there if you want to use it, but don't feel obligated to do so.

[Jezabelle]

Again, there’s nothing actually wrong with everyone picking Scientific for their faction. The game wouldn’t be any less fun because of it, and there’s still a lot of customisation about which techs to pick, so all this discussion is somewhat academic. Still, just for the sake of balance…

Rambling ahead

A few thoughts on the Artistic Trait:

• Prestige only grants a bonus to research, and maybe a modest bonus to military. Starting with Physics and Algebra does all that anyway (+3 research, +1 fleet, and more trade power to spend on units) with some extra benefits to boot.
• The Artistic trait also expensive in terms of opportunity cost, as it only does something when you spend a personal action: if I want to exploit it, I have to forgo other actions such as development or commanding armies. Again, compare it to Scientific, where you get a bunch of bonuses automatically rather than having to ‘work’ for it.
• However, the biggest problem with Artistic is that it only takes effect at the end of each year, which imposes a big delay on any benefit. In other words, it’s only useful if you’re able to forecast prestige targets for the year after the one you take actions. Similarly, it confers no benefit whatsoever for the first 4 turns of the game, during the initial gold-rush for neutral territory.

Lastly, note that Monuments generate +10 prestige per turn. That’s +40 a year, compared to an absolute maximum of +24 per year from artistic (i.e. every single action spent creating art). Admittedly there are the added complexities of buildings (getting the material, using up a construction slot), but the benefit is almost double, and you haven’t given up a faction trait to get it. An Artistic faction will get an impressive boost in years 2-3, but it then becomes irrelevant when Monuments enter play anyway.


Are you expecting people to exhaust the entire tech tree, though? Even if that happens, we’re talking a small, highly situational endgame bonus compared to a guaranteed head-start. If 4X games have taught me anything, it's that half the civilisations are usually buried (or hopelessly behind) within the first third of gameplay.

Well... no. I actually had an idea for a complete overhaul, but it's going waaaay off script, so I won't be offended if you trash it immediately.

Faction Traits

The idea is that traits should define how the civilisation proceeds on its quest to greatness: rather than just getting a passive bonus, it rewards a strategy which actively pursues it. Additionally, this system means that players aren’t forced to “give up” on a certain aspect of the game just because they didn’t specialise in it from the onset. Prestige should still be relevant, even if you’re concentrating on a warlike strategy; conversely, you shouldn’t be consigned to a hopeless thrashing just because you didn’t go a 5-Warfare character and someone else did. So, here’s my idea:

Aggressive factions (remember, gold & trade is only ever used for military units) get a means of obtaining prestige, which they’d otherwise have to give up on. Obviously they won’t be able to compete with a dedicated Artistic / Monuments player, but it might be enough to let them jostle for second place with their neighbours. It also means they at least have a chance of getting some research done, if only due to prestige slowly accruing:

• Mercantile: Performing the Trade action generates 2 Prestige.
• Warlike: Performing the Raid action generates 2 Prestige.

Peaceful factions earn a small gratuity of gold from their associated action. It’s not enough to compete with the armies of warlike civilisations, but padding out the treasury means they can at least call upon mercenaries as a one-off emergency measure:

• Scientific: Performing the Research action generates 1¤.
• Artistic: Performing the Create Art action generates 1¤.

Using this method, specialising according to faction trait would still make you the best at something, but you can at least dabble in the other fields. It means that factions aren't too homogenised, as they’re strongly incentivised to stick to different playstyles, but there’s still some utility to using their weaker actions due to the accumulation of little windfalls.



Glad you approve  :-) It's there if you want to use it, but don't feel obligated to do so.

While I like your proposal

• I don't see raids being common enough to justify making that the whole centerpiece of Warlike.
• Any fundamental change impacts all previously submitted Kingdom sheets in a game I've spent a long time to get any sheets for.

You see my dilemma.  With a different Warlike I could approve fundamentally, pending assent by all other players.

[Ontan]

That all sounds eminently reasonable - I wouldn’t want any changes forced upon players who’ve already finalised their nation. Regarding the Warlike trait, I’d probably change it to: “Performing the Assume Command action grants +1 Prestige”. It’s a smaller bonus, but I feel that command actions aren’t something you really need to go out of your way for: if your nation is invading or defending, you’ll want to do it anyway.

Also, my character sheet is finally done, so it might be worth adding it to the Kingdoms and Characters roster - it occurs to me that it only has one entry right now, which might be dissuading potential players skimming over the thread.

[Remiel]

Still parsing through all the information.  Since Ontan is going with a Mesoamerican theme, I'll probably use a Chinese/Asian theme.  And I also claim gold as my color.

As far as the civ traits go, I see what Ontan is getting at.  Perhaps, instead of having Scientific start with 2 extra techs, it's simply easier for them to research new techs? Perhaps it only costs them 15 Lore instead of 20 to research?

Also, can you explain what the character skills do?  I think I get Warfare, but I'm not sure about the other two.

[Jezabelle]

Still parsing through all the information.  Since Ontan is going with a Mesoamerican theme, I'll probably use a Chinese/Asian theme.  And I also claim gold as my color.

As far as the civ traits go, I see what Ontan is getting at.  Perhaps, instead of having Scientific start with 2 extra techs, it's simply easier for them to research new techs? Perhaps it only costs them 15 Lore instead of 20 to research?

Also, can you explain what the character skills do?  I think I get Warfare, but I'm not sure about the other two.

Hmm, that's actually a pretty elegant solution.

Lore is rolled to research, craft, create art, and give prestige to other nations.

Civics is rolled to build, make money, develop, and repair.

[Remiel]

Is there a limit of one building per region?

[Jezabelle]

Is there a limit of one building per region?

Yes, development and development related actions will be far more common than building I suspect.

[Remiel]

~Work in Progress~

Coat of Arms:

Nation Name: Xiangye Empire
Ruler:  The Divine Concubine
Chancellor:  TBA
Cultural Trait: Scientific

Territory/Regions:  4
Development:  0
Food:  11 (8 from territories, 3 from farm)
Materiale (+Yearly Income):  4 (+8) (4 from territories, 4 from mine)
Gold (+Seasonal Income) (-Upkeep): ¤10 (+¤4 from territories)
Max Trading Partners: 1
Trading Partners:
Trade Power: 1 (1 base)
Upkeep: -¤14

Prestige:  4 (+0 Yearly: Art) (+0 Art Creation) (+4 Territory) (-0 from Dishonour)
Army Cap: 2 (+0 from Buildings) (+0 from Tech) (base 2)
Fleet Cap: 1 (+0 from Buildings) (+0 from Tech) (base 1)
Armies:
The Bronze Legion - 4 Infantry (4 Upkeep)
The Golden Legion - 4 Infantry (4 Upkeep)
Fleets:
The Concubine's Fleet - 3 Ships (6 Upkeep)
National History:

Artworks:

Technologies:
Knowledge (K)
Architecture: -1 Materiale to Building Costs

[Remiel]

Am I doing this right so far?  I was strongly contemplating giving my country the Mercantile trait, and then promptly initiating a trade agreement with the High Sea Clans.  Lol.

Also, can 3 ships transport 4 infantry?

[Jezabelle]

Am I doing this right so far?  I was strongly contemplating giving my country the Mercantile trait, and then promptly initiating a trade agreement with the High Sea Clans.  Lol.

Also, can 3 ships transport 4 infantry?

It's looking good to me.

Yeah, you only need one ship per space to form the "bridge" for travel, infantry are never technically within a ship.  Do consider your Fleet Cap with that.

[MisoThe Mouse]

Interested! The only caveat is that I’d love to play a supporting character rather than a faction leader - that's just a RP preference more than anything.

Same, I am very interested. But in a duke, or influential merchant family capacity.

[Jezabelle]

Same, I am very interested. But in a duke, or influential merchant family capacity.

Excellent!

There's lots of options right now because nobody has an additional character in their nation yet, so you could potentially join up with any of them.

[Remiel]

Sorry, follow-up question:

Let's say I go with my build as posted above.  I have  ¤10, and my income is +4, but my upkeep is -14.  That means I'll be in the black for one year, but I'll run out of cash very quickly and, in fact, have a balance of -10 in the second year unless I come up with additional revenue pretty damn quickly, right?

[Ontan]

Perhaps, instead of having Scientific start with 2 extra techs, it's simply easier for them to research new techs? Perhaps it only costs them 15 Lore instead of 20 to research?

Not that it’s my decision to make, but... yeah. Yeah, I’ll admit that’s a better solution than mine   :-)

Joanie was also asking about the Artistic trait - does that need to be adjusted? Say, to +2 instead of +3?

Same, I am very interested. But in a duke, or influential merchant family capacity.

I’m sure you’ll be welcomed with open arms by any faction - mine included, obviously! I’ll grudgingly concede the Aztec / fantasy-Mesoamerica theme isn’t for everyone, but even so, I’d love to have a second character on board.

All that said, though... do give some consideration to leading a faction of your own. I originally baulked away from doing so, but the extra rules are actually pretty straightforward, and I’m really glad I changed my mind. 

Sorry, follow-up question:

Let's say I go with my build as posted above.  I have  ¤10, and my income is +4, but my upkeep is -14.  That means I'll be in the black for one year, but I'll run out of cash very quickly and, in fact, have a balance of -10 in the second year unless I come up with additional revenue pretty damn quickly, right?

Wait for the official word from our resident GM, but I suspect it’s a deliberate setup to incentivise expansion and territorial tensions: the overwhelming majority of gold mines are in neutral territory sandwiched between factions.

Also, remember that you can generate a lot of gold via actions each turn, so you’re not actually dependent on map resources. Nations can nominate their trade partner(s) as part of their grand strategy; individual characters can also perform the “trade” action as one (or both) of their personal actions each turn.

I’m not sure whether you can voluntarily disband units, though. I’m guessing you can’t for mercenaries, hence all the rules about them going rogue when they don’t get paid (making it a deal-with-the-devil arrangement?), but maybe you can for faction-made troops. Jez?

[Jezabelle]

I’m not sure whether you can voluntarily disband units, though. I’m guessing you can’t for mercenaries, hence all the rules about them going rogue when they don’t get paid (making it a deal-with-the-devil arrangement?), but maybe you can for faction-made troops. Jez?

Mercenaries check whether or not they can be paid at a separate junction.  To disband your normal troops, it's the same as shuffling units between armies--you just shuffle them into nothingness more or less, then don't have to pay their upkeep anymore.