What's in the News? 2.0

[Yvellakitsune]

I think that the first clause in the second amendment needs to be addressed far more often than it is:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Show me the regulations.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title10/subtitleA/part1/chapter12&edition=prelim

CHAPTER 12—THE MILITIA
Sec.
246.Militia: composition and classes.
247.Militia duty: exemptions.
       
Amendments
2016—Pub. L. 114–328, div. A, title XII, §1241(a)(1), (o)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497, 2512, renumbered chapter 13 of this title "THE MILITIA" as chapter 12, redesignated item 311 "Militia: composition and classes" as item 246, and redesignated item 312 "Militia duty: exemptions" as item 247.

§246. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

...............

Here is a partial list of organized militias, tiers of the reserve system, other agencies, and the unorganized militia that can be federalized for service in the USA and roughly approximated in the order they would be called up in.... situation dependent.

Active duty US Military
Coast Guard (DHS in peace time but joins the Navy if required)
Military Reserve Components... (Federal reserve elements)
Air/National Guard Components... (State based reserve elements)
Retired Reserve (retired military on pension are considered on “half-pay” and subject to recall)
Individual Ready Reserve (served in the military for less than 8 years)
Merchant Marine (can be mobilized under the US Navy)
Civil Reserve Air Fleet (federal mobilization of airlines to move the military)
Civil Air Patrol (auxiliary component for the Air Force)
And yes... Selective Service and the draft pool (ie: the civilian population in the unorganized militia that is regulated by policy and law.)

Selective Service requirements are not fixed and change based on Military requirement vs. population available.  In the name of equality, women will soon be included.  Even illegal aliens are subject to selective service.  If the emergency was great enough, they could mobilize anyone or everyone in the ”unorganized militia” in theory.

Historically, civilian ships and the railways were brought into national service.

Government civilians carry an equivalent military rank based on their GS level and actually can be sent to war and it is usually spelled out in their contracts if the position is identified as “emergency essential.”  I had several who worked for me while I was in the military at one time.  I deployed with civilians at times as well from DOD, State Department, Department of Justice and a slew of other three letter agencies. 

In modern times, it has been discussed and debated about issuing Letters of Marque (regulated under Congress) to corporations primarily in the realm of cyberwarfare.  Here is one link: http://opiniojuris.org/2013/03/04/revive-letters-of-marque-and-reprisal-to-launch-cyber-attacks-against-china/

About the only people not covered are immigrants and non-immigrants on visas and children.  If nothing else, you are in the draft pool or “unorganized militia” in Title X of the US Code.  Unless you want to argue banning women from owning firearms until it’s rewritten. 

[Tamhansen]

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title10/subtitleA/part1/chapter12&edition=prelim

CHAPTER 12—THE MILITIA
Sec.
246.Militia: composition and classes.
247.Militia duty: exemptions.
       
Amendments
2016—Pub. L. 114–328, div. A, title XII, §1241(a)(1), (o)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497, 2512, renumbered chapter 13 of this title "THE MILITIA" as chapter 12, redesignated item 311 "Militia: composition and classes" as item 246, and redesignated item 312 "Militia duty: exemptions" as item 247.

§246. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

...............

Here is a partial list of organized militias, tiers of the reserve system, other agencies, and the unorganized militia that can be federalized for service in the USA and roughly approximated in the order they would be called up in.... situation dependent.

Active duty US Military
Coast Guard (DHS in peace time but joins the Navy if required)
Military Reserve Components... (Federal reserve elements)
Air/National Guard Components... (State based reserve elements)
Retired Reserve (retired military on pension are considered on “half-pay” and subject to recall)
Individual Ready Reserve (served in the military for less than 8 years)
Merchant Marine (can be mobilized under the US Navy)
Civil Reserve Air Fleet (federal mobilization of airlines to move the military)
Civil Air Patrol (auxiliary component for the Air Force)
And yes... Selective Service and the draft pool (ie: the civilian population in the unorganized militia that is regulated by policy and law.)

Selective Service requirements are not fixed and change based on Military requirement vs. population available.  In the name of equality, women will soon be included.  Even illegal aliens are subject to selective service.  If the emergency was great enough, they could mobilize anyone or everyone in the ”unorganized militia” in theory.

Historically, civilian ships and the railways were brought into national service.

Government civilians carry an equivalent military rank based on their GS level and actually can be sent to war and it is usually spelled out in their contracts if the position is identified as “emergency essential.”  I had several who worked for me while I was in the military at one time.  I deployed with civilians at times as well from DOD, State Department, Department of Justice and a slew of other three letter agencies. 

In modern times, it has been discussed and debated about issuing Letters of Marque (regulated under Congress) to corporations primarily in the realm of cyberwarfare.  Here is one link: http://opiniojuris.org/2013/03/04/revive-letters-of-marque-and-reprisal-to-launch-cyber-attacks-against-china/

About the only people not covered are immigrants and non-immigrants on visas and children.  If nothing else, you are in the draft pool or “unorganized militia” in Title X of the US Code.  Unless you want to argue banning women from owning firearms until it’s rewritten.

You could definitely debate the 'well regulated' part here.

Also, this means everyone over 45 needs to hand back their weapons, as does anyone under 17, as neither falls under the class of militia. Same would go for women, people wearing glasses, people with hearing aids, people with disabilities. \so that in fact means that under chapter 12, there should be a medical and psych eval before you're licensed to carry a weapon.

[Yvellakitsune]

I was addressing the “militia” argument in my post and what is regulated.

I already addressed what you said. Plus the Supreme Court didn’t take your opinion.

Eligibility requirements for a draft and for overall military service change.  The Civil War drafts were different than WWI, changed again for WWII, again for Korea, again for Vietnam, and again with current Selective Service.  I also pointed out they are currently under review again. 

If there was a major emergency, say a plague in the USA, they could decide anyone from age 14 to 75 could be drafted to contain infected people in quarantines and handle dead bodies based on the available population versus the requirement. 

The real aspect of the “well regulated militia” is a government requirement, not that of the person.  The amendment is perfectly clear on the peoples’ right.  If the government decides that what I listed is regulated enough, that is it.  The people’s right is still there.  Being in a militia is not a requirement of the people.  It’s an obligation of the government.  The right of the people is a limitation on the government. 

If you want to change the people’s right, you have to repeal it.  If you want checks and requirements on people to exercise something, it by definition is no longer a right and becomes a government granted privilege like driving is.  So the only option is repeal. 

In a twist, the Second Amendment could be used to justify the bulk of the liberal platform as it is worded.  If the “militia” is the people (as the Supreme Court ruled) and the government is obligated to ensure the militia is “well regulated.”  You could argue that the militia (ie: people) needs to be healthy (healthcare) trained (education) quartered (housing) and provisioned (food, water, etc) in order to be “well regulated” (ie: in good working order). 

[Oniya]

In a twist, the Second Amendment could be used to justify the bulk of the liberal platform as it is worded.  If the “militia” is the people (as the Supreme Court ruled) and the government is obligated to ensure the militia is “well regulated.”  You could argue that the militia (ie: people) needs to be healthy (healthcare) trained (education) quartered (housing) and provisioned (food, water, etc) in order to be “well regulated” (ie: in good working order).

And y'know?  I'd be good with that, with the addition of training to ensure that this 'well-regulated' militia knew how to handle their equipment.

[TheGlyphstone]

The 2nd amendment, as previously quoted:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Yvellakitsune helpfully copied the entirety of USC Title X Chapter 12.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title10/subtitleA/part1/chapter12&edition=prelim

And now let's add the third joker in the deck, Heller vs. District of Columbia - the landmark 5-4 Supreme Court decision that actually codified the individual right to possess a firearm:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html

Judgements 1f) and 2) in Heller simultaneously upheld US vs. Miller, permitting the government to restrict what types of firearms are permissible to the militia (aka the citizenry) and reaffirmed the legality of the National Firearms Act.


So in summary, we have one vague constitutional amendment, one bulky chunk of legalese that, as Oniya noted, has issues when used as the be-all and end-all of the discussion, and one Supreme Court decision that, like the 2nd itself, tends to lead to people loudly repeating the bits they like and conveniently ignoring the bits they don't.

[Yvellakitsune]

And y'k now?  I'd be good with that, with the addition of training to ensure that this 'well-regulated' militia knew how to handle their equipment.

Groups like the NRA would not have an issue with that. 

The most useful courses I had in high school was Spanish and Junior Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (JROTC), even before I joined the Army.  First aid, map reading and navigation, dispute settlement, leadership fundamentals and hands on experience, more emphasis on US government and civics, and my high school had small bore rifle training and marksmanship.  (Today they just use airguns.)  It doesn’t have to be a military format specifically like JROTC, but that curriculum I think would benefit a lot of people in the USA overall.  Along with some financial awareness education.  High school has become so focused on college prep that practical life skills have been neglected.... and compounded even more with both parents working. 

[TheGlyphstone]

Groups like the NRA would not have an issue with that. 

The most useful courses I had in high school was Spanish and Junior Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (JROTC), even before I joined the Army.  First aid, map reading and navigation, dispute settlement, leadership fundamentals and hands on experience, more emphasis on US government and civics, and my high school had small bore rifle training and marksmanship.  (Today they just use airguns.)  It doesn’t have to be a military format specifically like JROTC, but that curriculum I think would benefit a lot of people in the USA overall.  Along with some financial awareness education.  High school has become so focused on college prep that practical life skills have been neglected.... and compounded even more with both parents working.

Honestly? I think the NRA would have a problem with it, and that's one of the reasons I dislike it so much. There's a gulf of middle ground where the moderates and semi-moderates of the left and right could find some compromises, like training or universal background checks. But that is anathema to the conservative fringe who see any hedges placed by the government on their right - despite, paradoxically to my thinking - it's that same government providing and enforcing said right. The same fringe is responsible for the NRA blocking efforts by the FTA to digitize their background check system, because the fringers fear 'lists' of gun owners being made as the first step on a slippery slope. And that fringe composes the bulk - not all, but the majority - of the NRA's membership roll and provides most of the organization's revenue via membership fees.

In turn, the NRA caters to them and validates their position despite them being a minority of total gun owners. A 30-second google search gives me estimates as low as 265 million and as high as 383 million for the number of civilian-owned firearms in the US. There are 230 million adults in the US, and estimates of gun ownership range from a low of 25% to a high of 45%. The NRA claims a membership of 5 million people, so at the high end they represent 8.69% of American gun owners, and 4.83% at the low end. A group comprised of between 5% and 9% of armed citizens, largely the most extreme of that population, controls 95% of the national dialogue regarding gun ownership and stifles more reasonable discussion in the interests of protecting its political power.

[Sara Nilsson]

maybe split the guns discussion off into a separate thread?

[Yvellakitsune]

So you don’t think that the NRA would take the opportunity to familiarize say... high school students with firearms through safety programs.  You think they would give up having an opportunity to shape the discussion and increasing the comfort level of the population at large around firearms? 

It could even have a stabilizing effect on the NRA by bringing in more moderate people from that gulf you mentioned.  Getting them back to their roots. 

I grew up on military school districts on military bases.  We had an annual class on what to do if you encounter unexplored ordnance because if you played in the woods around military bases, you might find something got accidentally dropped.  Even simple awareness classes can benefit comfort levels.   Maybe some people need merely awareness classes, others might take classes in handling.  Either way it builds a baseline of comfort and understanding for further discussion.  Common vernacular alone would benefit the issue greatly instead of the hyperbole we get with just the word “assault rifle.” I think groups like the NRA would jump at the opportunity to be part of it.  As opposed to letting one side define the whole thing.

That’s why I think they would jump at the opportunity to provide training. 

(As for splitting the thread, I think Tolvo has one already if it gets moved.)

[Sara Nilsson]

When I was young and naive.. ok a little over 10 years ago when I came to this country I took an NRA gun course as I wanted to continue my hobby of shooting at targets. And the course was abysmal. Like really really bad. It was more a "You should join the NRA, because liberals are bad. btw here is a shotgun why don't you shoot a few rounds at the target" Did they cover some safety? Sure they did but it wasn't what I would call a safety course more a "lets you try out a few guns and we will talk briefly about safety" just watching say Hickock45 on youtube is better safety course

Ok simplified but seriously I had to struggle to not facepalm especially considering how frigging expensive the course was. And being someone who goes to the range a few times a month on average I meet enough NRA members to say at least those around here will fight against ANY restriction of any kind. Even having to take a safety course to them is anathema. Slippery slope comes up all the time.

[TheGlyphstone]

So you don’t think that the NRA would take the opportunity to familiarize say... high school students with firearms through safety programs.  You think they would give up having an opportunity to shape the discussion and increasing the comfort level of the population at large around firearms? 

It could even have a stabilizing effect on the NRA by bringing in more moderate people from that gulf you mentioned.  Getting them back to their roots. 

I grew up on military school districts on military bases.  We had an annual class on what to do if you encounter unexplored ordnance because if you played in the woods around military bases, you might find something got accidentally dropped.  Even simple awareness classes can benefit comfort levels.   Maybe some people need merely awareness classes, others might take classes in handling.  Either way it builds a baseline of comfort and understanding for further discussion.  Common vernacular alone would benefit the issue greatly instead of the hyperbole we get with just the word “assault rifle.” I think groups like the NRA would jump at the opportunity to be part of it.  As opposed to letting one side define the whole thing.

That’s why I think they would jump at the opportunity to provide training. 

(As for splitting the thread, I think Tolvo has one already if it gets moved.)

I think we are seeing two very different things. You envision a sort of voluntary training course in high school? The NRA would love that, free advertising and an early start at growing their next generation of members. What I suspect Oniya envisions is a training requirement; much like, say, a drivers license, youd be required to pass a basic safety and usage course to carry a gun. The NRA's core would flip its lid at the idea, even if the training was free or paid for by the government, because of their fear towards giving liberals any wedge at all into gun limits.

[Sara Nilsson]

https://abc7ny.com/health/measles-outbreak-rockland-bars-unvaccinated-from-public-places/5218203/

ROCKLAND COUNTY, New York (WABC) -- Rockland County has declared a state of emergency over the ongoing measles outbreak, with Executive Ed Day announcing that non-vaccinated minors are now barred from public places.

It is sad that we have gotten to this place that fucking measles outbreaks are now so bad.

[Skynet]

If you want to change the people’s right, you have to repeal it. If you want checks and requirements on people to exercise something, it by definition is no longer a right and becomes a government granted privilege like driving is.  So the only option is repeal. 

To the bolded: are we talking legally or philosophically?

Legally speaking there's already checks and requirements for just about every Constitutional right. Threatening to kill the US President will get you a visit from the Secret Service. Commercial speech is regulated in many ways, such as preventing companies from mislabeling products. Freedom of religion only goes so far, in that Rastafarianism's use of drugs for personal transcendence is illegal due to our War on Drugs. Freedom of assembly can be restricted in a state of emergency, like what happened in Ferguson, MS. Even the right to protest can be limited in regards to things such as holding up traffic without a permit.

I recall you mentioning that you're a Republican in this or another thread. I do not know your specific opinions on my above examples, but many of said government restrictions and exceptions are often both socially and legally allowed for reasons of practicality and public safety. I often see this human right "no government" absolutism applied very selectively by conservatives in regards to firearms and neglect most of the others.

[Skynet]

PS for other threads regarding firearms and 2nd Amendment discussion, I'd like to point people to a thread I made a while ago.

[TheGlyphstone]

Its not even consistent within the pro firearms movement sometimes. To use a bluntly obvious example, rocket propelled grenade launchers are illegal to own for civilians, and no one complains about this. There are severe limits on private ownership for fully automatic machine guns, and only the fringiest of the fringe protest that.  These were upheld by the same court case that affirmed private individual gun ownership to begin with, and you cant throw out one while demanding the other as long as they come from the same source.

[Tolvo]

Also citizens cannot defeat the US military. It is very much a fantasy, the modern military has such a massive gap with civilians it's just not possible. And wasn't really back in the day. The Revolutionary War would have failed if not for former British Military(Such as George Washington) and the aid of foreign powers in Europe who supported the Colonists against the British. It's incredibly rare to see a citizen revolt actually work without some form of military aid and support. Peasants struggled to revolt against Medieval rulers since they lacked armor that could protect them from even volleys of arrows while the King's army very much could(Civil wars were usually what caused change then). And in an age of tanks and drones and body armor and so many advanced weapons and vehicles that can't even be harmed without military grade weaponry, what could people do? Even giving people automatic rifles wouldn't be enough to let citizens take on the military.

But in strange news.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/garfield-phones-mystery-devices-washing-up-on-beaches-france/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=65451723

The Garfield phone mystery has been solved.

[Lustful Bride]

So apparently the EPA cant even agree on basic scientific facts anymore, like breathing polluted air being unhealthy.

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/28/707166015/epa-science-panel-considering-guidelines-that-upend-basic-air-pollution-science

[Tamhansen]

So apparently the EPA cant even agree on basic scientific facts anymore, like breathing polluted air being unhealthy.

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/28/707166015/epa-science-panel-considering-guidelines-that-upend-basic-air-pollution-science

that's what you get when you ban scientists from using science, and replace their directors with fosil fuel lobbyists.

[Lustful Bride]

We may have just found the ultimate weapon against mosquitos. Skrillex Clickable link.

[Lustful Bride]

Seems like we may be hitting the breaking point on all the trash we dump in space. India's missile test might have made it worse.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/india-anti-satellite-missile-test-a-terrible-thing-nasa-chief-says/ar-BBVw5YR?ocid=spartandhp

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

Vladimir Zelensky, the actor, appears for being favourite, in Ukraine presidential elections.

https://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/6288202

[Lustful Bride]

New Brunei anti LGBT causes outrage and some boycotts, but especially inspires fear among the LGBT community in the region.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/lgbt-community-flees-brunei-following-inhumane-new-stoning-laws/ar-BBVvNpN?ocid=spartandhp

[Polymorph]

Good old hypocrisy. One group of people demonstrating for their rights and freedoms turn on an innocent bystander going about their own business and physically attack them because they are opposed to her rights and freedoms. Transgender woman attacked by Algerian pro democracy demonstrators.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47799288

[Sara Nilsson]

Good old hypocrisy. One group of people demonstrating for their rights and freedoms turn on an innocent bystander going about their own business and physically attack them because they are opposed to her rights and freedoms. Transgender woman attacked by Algerian pro democracy demonstrators.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47799288

yeah saw that yesterday. Major trigger warning on that video. poor woman

[Sara Nilsson]

MASSIVE TRIGGER WARNING.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-stirs-uproar-alleged-rape-victim-closed-legs/story?id=62185027&cid=clicksource_4380645_null_card_hed

The Supreme Court Advisory Committee on Judicial Conduct said Russo asked the victim, who was seeking a restraining order in a domestic violence case, if she could have closed her legs to thwart the alleged assault and questioned if she “knew how to stop somebody from having intercourse" with her, according to a transcript of the May 2016 hearing.

"Do you know how to stop somebody from having intercourse with you?" Russo asked. "How would you do that?"

She responded, saying "I'd probably physically harm them … tell them no … to stop," or "try to run away."

Russo continued to press her, asking "Run away, get away. Anything else?"

"I -- that's all I know," she said.

"Block your body parts? Close your legs? Call the police? Did you do any of those things?" the judge asked.

Sadly, this isn't a rare thing. That a judge, or police officer puts the blame on the victim. Or at least puts it on us to somehow prevent it. Which is why I never bothered even going to the cops, why add to the already insane pain when those that are supposed to protect you and give you justice makes you a victim again. Fuck this guy. With a rusty railroad spike covered in fireants holding little swabs of rubbing alcohol to make it even more painful.