Slang as accepted language use.

[Tamhansen]

Does the job they're applying for require the ability to write in formal english/dutch/whatever? If so, then obviously their application would show that they are unsuitable. Otherwise, I don't see that it would be hugely relevant. Maybe an extra effort from the HR deparment in organizing their employment records but that'd be about all.

If people are being discriminated against because of stereotypes of people who speak that language, then that's terrible and I think it needs to be addressed. If they're being selected against because language skill and usage is an aspect of the position then that's just rather common sense.

No matter what kind of job it is. Why the hell would an employer hire someone who can't even bother to speak the proper language? Apparently that person is unmotivated. There are certain basic skills an employer is right to expect.

[Serephino]

Learning to speak proper (insert language here) is important no matter where you live if you don't want to end up at a crappy job.  Here in the US we are taught proper English, and are expected to use it in higher education and trying to get jobs.  My boyfriend has gotten points taken off of school papers because of grammar mistakes.

It is possible for immigrants to learn the language of where they live.  One of my friends is Hispanic, and his great grandmother who came from Mexico learned at least some English.  His grandmother speaks both Spanish and English.  She speaks Spanish at home, but found it easier to survive in the world by learning English.  His grandfather was from Cuba, and learned enough English to get by.  That means my friend and his mother also speak both.  As a police officer dealing with the public, he's found being able to speak Spanish helpful, except when he gets woken up at 3am to translate.

[Caehlim]

No matter what kind of job it is. Why the hell would an employer hire someone who can't even bother to speak the proper language? Apparently that person is unmotivated. There are certain basic skills an employer is right to expect.

So, seasonal labourers who pick grapes for a day need to learn the official language of that nation-state in order to be "motivated" and worthy of hiring? I'm not sure that your stance is very practical.

[Callie Del Noire]

So, seasonal labourers who pick grapes for a day need to learn the official language of that nation-state in order to be "motivated" and worthy of hiring? I'm not sure that your stance is very practical.

I'm mixed on offical language.. I understand the need to offer options for assisting those who don't speak english.. BUT there is a need for English in some spots as the sole means of communication. Nothing was more annoying in a workspace than half the staff speaking a language the other side doesn't speak (the case I'm using is the Filipino sailors talking Tagalog in the workspace. Nothing is more fun than coming in to find your ONLY other qualified Support Equipment operator told the supervisor that I said he could go home for the day.. in FRONT of me in language that I don't speak. Or being the only person in the disbursing office speaking English when I come in for a pay issue)

In some cases, English is needed as the only language but we need to be able to help folks who can't speak it well or at all.

[Tamhansen]

Depends. If the employer wishes not to hire them because they do not speak the language it should be their right yes. If the employer does not care, that's the employer's choice. My point is that if you do not bother to learn the language you should not be surprised to be left by the roadside.

P.s. That was most likely the worst attempt at reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen.

[Callie Del Noire]

Depends. If the employer wishes not to hire them because they do not speak the language it should be their right yes. If the employer does not care, that's the employer's choice. My point is that if you do not bother to learn the language you should not be surprised to be left by the roadside.

P.s. That was most likely the worst attempt at reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen.

I wasn't trying to state one or the other.. just admitting.. I'm conflicted. And I am. I've been on the wrong side of the 'don't speak the language' experience. (both in service and in Ireland)

It ain't fun being excluded.

[TaintedAndDelish]

While its common to use light slang that's regionally accepted while speaking, ( in NYC, "Gonna instead of "going to" ) one needs to know how to write properly and they need to know when its not OK to use such shortcuts and locally accepted slang. If someone sent me an email at work that had even a little local slang, I would question their judgment and intelligence. There's a good chanced that I would not take them seriously and would quite likely forward that email to fellow employees for a good laugh. Sounds harsh? It is, but that that's the kind of impression slang can make.

In the US, some schools have elected to teach "ebonics" which is basically slang spoken in some poor areas. I believe the idea was to build up the student's self esteem by validating his 'local dialect'  and to help make a distinction between that and what they call "Standard English."

[Caehlim]

P.s. That was most likely the worst attempt at reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen.

You do realize that named logical fallacies aren't just magic words that you chant to make your opponents arguments vanish like David Copperfield's scantily clad assistant. Right? You actually have to demonstrate that the person is employing said logical fallacy and how in doing so their argument is rendered invalid.

Perhaps you'd care to explain why this conversation...

Caehlim: Depends on the job.
Katataban: No matter what kind of job it is.
Caehlim: Even seasonal-labour such as grape-picking?

Is the worst reductio ad absurdum you've ever seen and how we might all be so lucky as to never encounter any RAAs worse than it?

Or is there perhaps some other element to the conversation that I missed in my paraphrasing to which you are referring?

[Oniya]

Even with something as 'simple' as fruit picking, there is a certain amount of communication that has to go on between employer and employee.  (What do you look for in a ripe product?  Are there situations where the product should be removed and discarded instead of picked and packed?)  Being able to do so without resorting to charades is going to be preferred by the employer, and therefore it is likely that employees with that skill are going to be given more opportunity.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Things like unskilled labour and trade actually have a long history of getting by just fine without common languages, or of motivating the creation of pidgins and yes, slangs. I think Caehlim is right that this isn't a compelling objection.

[Love And Submission]

Yes how dare people speak differently then you. They are clearly lazy and unwilling to work because they
can't afford to take classes or buy a tutor since no one will hire them.\How awful non-conformity is.

It's like homosexuals  , Why can't they just learn to be straight at work? It makes me uncomfortable
and shows they're unwilling to fit in!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Sarcasm.

[TheGlyphstone]

Yes how dare people speak differently then you. They are clearly lazy and unwilling to work because they
can't afford to take classes or buy a tutor since no one will hire them.\How awful non-conformity is.

It's like homosexuals  , Why can't they just learn to be straight at work? It makes me uncomfortable
and shows they're unwilling to fit in!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Sarcasm.

Unless you're working at a brothel, that actually is reducto ad absurdum.

[Callie Del Noire]

Back to the original post.. (and I apologize for my derailing efforts in this)

I figure that it's a question of how much give a much larger culture can give to any subculture that won't give any ground in accommodation. Have to balance the needs of the smaller group against how much letting them isolate themselves might hurt them over all.

Takes someone more skilled than me to make that call.

[Tamhansen]

Yes how dare people speak differently then you. They are clearly lazy and unwilling to work because they
can't afford to take classes or buy a tutor since no one will hire them.\How awful non-conformity is.

It's like homosexuals  , Why can't they just learn to be straight at work? It makes me uncomfortable
and shows they're unwilling to fit in!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Sarcasm.

Again using completely irrelevant points in an attempt to derail the point.

The people This post was about are people born in the country, who have access to a free education system AND on top of that are given access to special courses outside school geared especially to them. Clearly if they can't speak the language they are simply not making an effort.

[Silk]

Things like unskilled labour and trade actually have a long history of getting by just fine without common languages, or of motivating the creation of pidgins and yes, slangs. I think Caehlim is right that this isn't a compelling objection.

Except were living in the era of safety legislation and protocols, where not only do you have to know the fire exit but you must also understand the cucumstances of fire, and the assembly point.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Except were living in the era of safety legislation and protocols, where not only do you have to know the fire exit but you must also understand the cucumstances of fire, and the assembly point.

Um no, most of the unskilled labour jobs that immigrants are brought in / hired for do not in fact have sophisticated safety protocols. (Of course this does indicate a problematically exploitative environment and also that learning the native language can get you access to safer jobs... provided the native populace is willing to hire you, which is where racism often becomes a factor.)

[Callie Del Noire]

Um no, most of the unskilled labour jobs that immigrants are brought in / hired for do not in fact have sophisticated safety protocols. (Of course this does indicate a problematically exploitative environment and also that learning the native language can get you access to safer jobs... provided the native populace is willing to hire you, which is where racism often becomes a factor.)

That's not always true. You get a lot of immigrant workers in more machine intensive industries, for example things like meat packing industry which has a very HIGH amount of automation and limb hazards. As well as what little textile industry that remains in the country. People who hire the immigrants (legal or otherwise) don't always care for high safety standards or informing their staff.

Not being able to speak the local language can get you hurt. Safety information isnt' always translated and don't think 'low paying jobs' means 'hazard free' in the way of machinery or technical skills.

[Cyrano Johnson]

That's not always true. You get a lot of immigrant workers in more machine intensive industries. . . People who hire the immigrants (legal or otherwise) don't always care for high safety standards or informing their staff.

We are not disagreeing. I said immigrants are often hired into workplaces that don't have sophisticated safety protocols, not that these were necessarily low-risk workplaces.

[Lux12]

They're forced to take the jobs so many born citizens refuse to take and then people bash them for it.

[Callie Del Noire]

They're forced to take the jobs so many born citizens refuse to take and then people bash them for it.

They aren't forced.. if anything I'd say they are taken advantage of. And typically when the companies get caught..they lose while the companies get off with a slap on the wrist.

[Oniya]

Out of curiosity, is there a reason given for why these people don't wish to learn the local language?  I saw up-thread that classes are apparently offered, but people don't take advantage of them.  Is it willful?  Is it a situation where they can't read the notices telling them about the classes - which is apparently a problem with the Nepalese in my area? (Or worse:  'Illiterate?  Call for free assistance!')

[Caehlim]

sorry for sounding like a redneck supremacist, but I've been to towns in Arizona where *everything* is in Spanish. The Safeway, the Kroger, the McDonald's... everything. and these places are heavily populated by Mexicans. I dunno, it was fucking irritating that I was a foreigner in my own country...

You mean towns like Tucson or Tubac... that were founded by Spain?

Imagine how the Mexicans living there felt in 1847, I think they may have felt a little bit more than fucking irritated at how they were treated in their own country.

And next time you feel 'like a foreigner in your own country', I invite you to talk to a native american. The 1.54% of the population in Arizona who speak Navajo, probably have a bit more right to be annoyed than you do.

[Caehlim]

The people This post was about are people born in the country, who have access to a free education system AND on top of that are given access to special courses outside school geared especially to them.

No disagreement here with any of that. I've no doubt that there are a lot of resources available, most likely available at free or very low cost. In my country we have similar programs available and the same thing happens here to some extent.

Clearly if they can't speak the language they are simply not making an effort.

Quite possibly true. So the question is, why not?

Certainly some of the people may be simply lazy but with the numbers of people you're talking about, it seems unlikely that that is the explanation for everyone. Particularly when apparently speaking formal dutch is so advantageous.

So why, when they are given access to these resources, is it not working? That is the question you should be asking and I think the answers that you find will be much more interesting and relevant to solving the problem.

[Oniya]

So why, when they are given access to these resources, is it not working? That is the question you should be asking and I think the answers that you find will be much more interesting and relevant to solving the problem.

That's pretty much the question I just asked.

[Caehlim]

That's pretty much the question I just asked.

Ah, so I see.

It's a good question.

I do have a thought as to the answer, but I can't remember my source and didn't really want to try to prove a point when I'm unable to cite any evidence. But I can still bring it up for discussion.

I was reading (somewhere) that in America fewer black people will take up higher learning in the form of college degrees because they perceive that it won't benefit them. The theory goes that if persecution will stop them from getting the job, even if they do get the degree, then why bother wasting a lot of time on doing it. (and unfortunately there is actual evidence showing that persecution does still stop minorities getting certain jobs despite America's reforms and efforts on this point).

I don't really know the situation in Rotterdam, but I expect a similar process might be occurring. Why learn formal dutch if it doesn't actually offer you a benefit? Is your time better spent learning dutch for a job that you'll get turned down for eventually anyway? Or is it better spent getting a job at the local corner-store selling hotdogs to other streetspeak speakers?

(I have a vague memory that this may have been in a book called 'The undercover economist', or possibly a different book called 'Filthy lucre' but I'm not 100% certain that it's even one of those two).