What if god was one of us... or at least thought and learned...

[Stattick]

Jews don't believe in hell. Hell is a Christian invention.

And it's one that makes no sense whatsoever. Let us say that evil can be quantified and measured. We'll say that a teaspoon of evil is for a pretty small sin, like telling a white lie, while a gallon is for a pretty serious sin, like murder. We're all carrying around some sin, or so the book says. But here's the thing... how do gallons compare with years? How many years of time should you be tortured for killing a man? Should it be for the average amount of time a man would be expected to live, minus his age, plus or minus what good or ill he would have done in his life? Sounds pretty fair to me. So, I murder a dude that's 20. He would have been expected to live until he was 70, and let's say that everything else leveled out to equal zero, it would mean that I should spend 50 years in the lake of fire. But an eternity? That's no kind of fair. Why do I spend an eternity in the lake of fire, when people that literally killed millions of people are spending the same exact amount of time in hell along side me. It's like comparing the mass of a grain of sand against the mass of the solar system. Nothing should equal an infinite amount of torture, because our sins are finite in nature. No God worthy of worship would ever torture even Hitler or Stalin for eternity. It makes no sense at all. It is, and I do mean this literally, infinitely unjust.

Old Testament, New Testament... makes no difference to me. Both of them are severely flawed, and I cannot put my belief in them. If the books are literally true, then God is infinitely evil for torturing unbelievers for all of eternity because they refused to believe in an illogical belief system. If the books are not literally true, but parts are figuratively true, other parts are historical, some parts are literally true, and so forth, than it's harder to say. Because then you're getting into philosophy and theology to try to determine the correct meaning from the books, and separate the truth from the lies. And as far as I'm concerned, there's sort of no point in looking at any of the mainstream Christian theology, because they agree on one point: If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you're going to be tortured for eternity. So, rejecting the mainstream forms of Christianity, the only form that doesn't have that requirement, the one that turns God infinitely evil, is Universal Unitarians. And as far as they're concerned, the Bible isn't all that big of a deal.

So, it all comes down to a gamble at the end. If there is a God... otherwise, we just die and are worm food, and all of our religions were just folly (probably the likeliest answer anyway). You can choose to worship an evil God, or you can choose not to worship an evil God. I figure it this way: if God is evil, I'm fucked no matter what I do. Either I land in the lake of fire at death, or I worship him, go to heaven for a bit, then realize that God's evil, and then after a bit of rebellion, I tossed into the lake of fire anyway. So, it's best not to bend knee to someone that's unworthy of my devotion in the first place. On the other hand, maybe the Bible got it all wrong, and isn't true. Well, if that's the case, then God is probably a merciful being who will weigh my decisions after death, look and see that I was a pretty good person when I lived, and say, "Yeah, come on in and live in my house dude." Or maybe the Bible's wrong, but God's still a douchebag. That takes me back to the first scenario, that of worshiping an evil God.

So, I just go my own way and do my own thing. Maybe it'll screw me in the end. I think it's unlikely that it's likely to screw me more than an evil God would though.

[Vanity Evolved]

Jews don't believe in hell. Hell is a Christian invention.

And it's one that makes no sense whatsoever. Let us say that evil can be quantified and measured. We'll say that a teaspoon of evil is for a pretty small sin, like telling a white lie, while a gallon is for a pretty serious sin, like murder. We're all carrying around some sin, or so the book says. But here's the thing... how do gallons compare with years? How many years of time should you be tortured for killing a man? Should it be for the average amount of time a man would be expected to live, minus his age, plus or minus what good or ill he would have done in his life? Sounds pretty fair to me. So, I murder a dude that's 20. He would have been expected to live until he was 70, and let's say that everything else leveled out to equal zero, it would mean that I should spend 50 years in the lake of fire. But an eternity? That's no kind of fair. Why do I spend an eternity in the lake of fire, when people that literally killed millions of people are spending the same exact amount of time in hell along side me. It's like comparing the mass of a grain of sand against the mass of the solar system. Nothing should equal an infinite amount of torture, because our sins are finite in nature. No God worthy of worship would ever torture even Hitler or Stalin for eternity. It makes no sense at all. It is, and I do mean this literally, infinitely unjust.

Old Testament, New Testament... makes no difference to me. Both of them are severely flawed, and I cannot put my belief in them. If the books are literally true, then God is infinitely evil for torturing unbelievers for all of eternity because they refused to believe in an illogical belief system. If the books are not literally true, but parts are figuratively true, other parts are historical, some parts are literally true, and so forth, than it's harder to say. Because then you're getting into philosophy and theology to try to determine the correct meaning from the books, and separate the truth from the lies. And as far as I'm concerned, there's sort of no point in looking at any of the mainstream Christian theology, because they agree on one point: If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you're going to be tortured for eternity. So, rejecting the mainstream forms of Christianity, the only form that doesn't have that requirement, the one that turns God infinitely evil, is Universal Unitarians. And as far as they're concerned, the Bible isn't all that big of a deal.

So, it all comes down to a gamble at the end. If there is a God... otherwise, we just die and are worm food, and all of our religions were just folly (probably the likeliest answer anyway). You can choose to worship an evil God, or you can choose not to worship an evil God. I figure it this way: if God is evil, I'm fucked no matter what I do. Either I land in the lake of fire at death, or I worship him, go to heaven for a bit, then realize that God's evil, and then after a bit of rebellion, I tossed into the lake of fire anyway. So, it's best not to bend knee to someone that's unworthy of my devotion in the first place. On the other hand, maybe the Bible got it all wrong, and isn't true. Well, if that's the case, then God is probably a merciful being who will weigh my decisions after death, look and see that I was a pretty good person when I lived, and say, "Yeah, come on in and live in my house dude." Or maybe the Bible's wrong, but God's still a douchebag. That takes me back to the first scenario, that of worshiping an evil God.

So, I just go my own way and do my own thing. Maybe it'll screw me in the end. I think it's unlikely that it's likely to screw me more than an evil God would though.

This was brought up quite nicely in The Atheist Experience, where one of the hosts questioned this; it's impossible to justify infinite punishment for finite crimes. Even with the Big Bads, Hitler, Stalin, etc., even with crimes against humanity that stacked up, you'll still reach a point where you can't be punished any longer. Infinite punishment only fits infinite crimes.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

The notion of Hell has never fit for me or really made much sense.  Rings more true of a boogie man than of anything true.

[Ironwolf85]

The Hell we know was created and adapted by the Roman Church from Norse mythology,  even then Dante and Milton had more influence over it than the Roman Church did.

I find the Islamic "hell" (diffrent term, means place of punishment) more interesting, only the truely horrible (Stalin, Hitler, Osama Bin ladin, ect.) go there, and are basically burned/tortured till the sin is paid for, then they go on to heaven.

[Vanity Evolved]

The Hell we know was created and adapted by the Roman Church from Norse mythology,  even then Dante and Milton had more influence over it than the Roman Church did.

I find the Islamic "hell" (diffrent term, means place of punishment) more interesting, only the truely horrible (Stalin, Hitler, Osama Bin ladin, ect.) go there, and are basically burned/tortured till the sin is paid for, then they go on to heaven.

Which brings up the question; why have faith, then? Unless we're actively murdering babies and eating their hearts, we just go to Heaven anyway.

[Oniya]

I think most people would rather take a miss on the burning and torturing part.  (Which begs the question:  Are masochists who do horrible things sent to Heaven first, and then go on to Hell after they've paid their dues?)

[Vanity Evolved]

I think most people would rather take a miss on the burning and torturing part.  (Which begs the question:  Are masochists who do horrible things sent to Heaven first, and then go on to Hell after they've paid their dues?)

Yeah, but what happens to the not so evil people? If Hell is just for the Hitlers, Stalins and Mao's of the world, I can only assume the rest go straight to Heaven.

[Ironwolf85]

that's where the forgiveness stuff comes in, not to mention persional paradise is supposed to be good enough that you won't care.
look up the movie what dreams may come.
still can't please everyone with every faith, that's why we've got so many.

[TaintedAndDelish]

Wait forgiveness? Why would a god create an imperfect being, then punish it for not being perfect? That's abusive.

Did not god create this devil himself? Did he lack the foresight to see where that would lead to? Could an entity powerful and bright enough to create the world possibly be that stupid?

[Vekseid]

While I don't consider myself an atheist, I don't really buy the thought that YHWH is the Creator, if such a being exists. YHWH is a fearful, envious, petty entity that makes mistakes regularly and is quite limited in capability.

I see knowing logic, science, the Universe entire as glimpsing at the Mind of God. It is humbling, awe-inspiring, and empowering all at the same time. I find the question of whether or not there is an intelligence to such a construct to be fascinating, but it's entirely tangential to what we see, perceive, and are capable of performing with our accumulated knowledge. It's productivity considering what we are currently capable of probing is quite limited, so I tend to feel there are better pursuits than arguing over it.