Wiki Weapons and the Future of Gun Control

[Ephiral]

Good thing I'm not most of them. If I were stationed in specific places, I would want to be armed. Some people really hate military and look for them. I think civilians should have the right to carry a gun legally. Some people even use them as a living to feed their families. There are proper places to have a weapon, and I don't think gun control is going to do anything for it any more than laws against drugs has done for that.

People who are feeding their families with guns are generally not in the middle of a dense civilian population. It's worth noting that military and police training tend to focus on very different things when it comes to firearms, for good reason. And... well, I see no real justification for the added danger of guns being a right. What benefit is there to society?

As to guns vs drugs: Did you miss the earlier point about how it's kinda hard to build a pistol in your basement or grow one in your backyard? Therein lies the difference. If most illegal weapons were Sten guns, you might have a point, but they're not. The overwhelming majority originate with legitimate owners.

[The Golden Touch]

Actually, I pointedly ignored that comparison. Guns are as easy to procure as anything else.

[Ephiral]

Actually, I pointedly ignored that comparison. Guns are as easy to procure as anything else.

Not saying they're especially difficult to procure as it stands. What I'm saying is that that procurement almost always involves a legitimate source. So yes, if you want to restrict the number of guns in illegitimate hands, reducing the number of legitimate suppliers and owners is a valid means to approach the problem.

[Dashenka]

Just keep in mind it isn't the guns fault.

No but I cannot think of ANY reason why a gun could be useful for. The things are made to kill. I know some people say that they are for protection but let's be honest, you buy a gun so you can shoot somebody who aggravates you. It's the whole 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' thing.

I just wonder when those weapon freaks in America wake up and see that it's all BS. People kill people yes but what about a kid bringing one to school to be 'cool' to his friends. Gun accidentally goes off, other kids die.

I'm baffled at why stuff like this is still happening in the US. It can't be stupidity cause America is producing so many smart things, so it has to be ignorance.

[Ephiral]

No but I cannot think of ANY reason why a gun could be useful for. The things are made to kill. I know some people say that they are for protection but let's be honest, you buy a gun so you can shoot somebody who aggravates you. It's the whole 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' thing.

Food and extremely rural home/self defense. Though that doesn't justify handguns. (Disclaimer: My country has a lot of sparsely populated wilderness. People who live in it can get a longarm as young as 16. I see no issue with this as long as they're trained in responsible use.)

[The Golden Touch]

Not saying they're especially difficult to procure as it stands. What I'm saying is that that procurement almost always involves a legitimate source. So yes, if you want to restrict the number of guns in illegitimate hands, reducing the number of legitimate suppliers and owners is a valid means to approach the problem.

I would much rather see a strict system for legal purchasing/registering guns that attempting to ban them from civilian hands.

No but I cannot think of ANY reason why a gun could be useful for. The things are made to kill. I know some people say that they are for protection but let's be honest, you buy a gun so you can shoot somebody who aggravates you. It's the whole 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' thing.

I just wonder when those weapon freaks in America wake up and see that it's all BS. People kill people yes but what about a kid bringing one to school to be 'cool' to his friends. Gun accidentally goes off, other kids die.

I'm baffled at why stuff like this is still happening in the US. It can't be stupidity cause America is producing so many smart things, so it has to be ignorance.

So I carry a gun so I preemptively plan to hurt someone. >>;; Yikes. I did not know that about myself. The military has trained me so well!

But some reasons why I know my friends have guns are hunting, target shooting, and self defense. My LPO has rifles so he can go out an shoot deer and elk so he doesn't have to spend money at the store for ground beef or steaks. I've even bought some of it off him. Oh shit, there's also an Olympic shooting team that use guns in competition. Not to mention people that have them to protect themselves from people that have hurt them before.

There are some children that are actually informed and not ignorant of firearms kept in their house... Like this kid!. What does cause accidents like this, I will agree with you is ignorance, and a blatant disregard for proper training with firearms. There are ways to prevent these kind of accidents.

[Hemingway]

Two things should be fairly obvious in a meaningful discussion on gun control.

First: Gun control is possible. To say that people who want them will get them no matter what, is an oversimplification - and not necessarily true, guns being a finite resource, as it were. If the supply is limited, it's limited for everyone.

Second: Banning guns outright, when they've been available for a long time, isn't going to fix anything immediately. As much as social scientists dislike talking about culture as a meaningful factor in anything, I don't think anyone can deny that the US gun culture is different from elsewhere.

How this relates to the possibility of easily and cheaply producing your own gun using a 3D printer is another thing, but it seems to me like if there's a real market for this sort of technology, it's not actually with private citizens. I mean, doing anything in secret that relates to the internet ( which, obviously, is a huge part of this ) is difficult. And you know the laws on something like this would be strict, because there's money involved. If private citizens could print their own guns legally, that threatens the arms industry. The beauty of the corporate state, I suppose.

But if it could be done quickly and reliably, then I can see it becoming something of a revolution for militaries and law enforcement. It changes everything in that case.

Obviously, that's a considerable if - who'd want to trust a printed gun over a proven, manufactured one, if their life depended on it? But if, then it's not difficult to imagine it having a huge impact on the economy. Which is, to say, everything.

[Ephiral]

I would much rather see a strict system for legal purchasing/registering guns that attempting to ban them from civilian hands.

As I mentioned above, I'm not necessarily supporting a ban. I just think they're a privilege that must be justified, not a right whose denial needs justification. A restrictive system, whereby a would-be purchaser must prove themselves competent and capable? Good. One that requires a reasonable need? Better.

[SinXAzgard21]

As I mentioned above, I'm not necessarily supporting a ban. I just think they're a privilege that must be justified, not a right whose denial needs justification. A restrictive system, whereby a would-be purchaser must prove themselves competent and capable? Good. One that requires a reasonable need? Better.

Protection is a reasonable need as it is the second amendment. 

[Healergirl]

Dashenka,

Not ignorance, not stupidity.  Culture.  The Minuteman ethos is very real, very powerful.  Not merely in the blatant terms of defending against government tyranny, also in terms of defending one's self.  You disagree as to the utility of firearms?  Well, you didn't take in tales of The Minuteman with your mother's milk, like so very many Americans have.

[Ephiral]

Protection is a reasonable need as it is the second amendment.

Protection is why there's a force of armed personnel with a system of overwatch in place, last I checked. And not only is the US not the world, but the Second Amendment is not a need so much as an attempt at justification. One I don't see standing up on its own.

[SinXAzgard21]

Protection is why there's a force of armed personnel with a system of overwatch in place, last I checked. And not only is the US not the world, but the Second Amendment is not a need so much as an attempt at justification. One I don't see standing up on its own.

Yup, because the 'armed personnel' can stop it all.  That is why we have people breaking into houses still, people getting murdered in their own homes.  I'm done, it is obvious you are not for civilians owning guns.  So this conversation is going to go no where.  I will own a gun if I choose.  I will shoot someone if I need to defend my home and my family because I will damn sure not wait for the cops to get there eventually.  That is all I really have to say.

[Ephiral]

Yup, because the 'armed personnel' can stop it all.  That is why we have people breaking into houses still, people getting murdered in their own homes.  I'm done, it is obvious you are not for civilians owning guns.  So this conversation is going to go no where.  I will own a gun if I choose.  I will shoot someone if I need to defend my home and my family because I will damn sure not wait for the cops to get there eventually.  That is all I really have to say.

...the US and other countries with high civilian gun ownership still have those problems, though. I have no problem with needful, responsible civilians owning guns. (See above re: my complete lack of issue with my country handing rifles to 16-year-old civilians.) I just recognize that they're dangerous, and so the default should not be permissive.

[Tairis]

Protection is why there's a force of armed personnel with a system of overwatch in place, last I checked. And not only is the US not the world, but the Second Amendment is not a need so much as an attempt at justification. One I don't see standing up on its own.

A force of armed personnel... with an average response time of 7 to 8 minutes after an emergency call is made. And it can be considerably more.

http://apbweb.com/featured-articles/1188-response-times-city-to-city.html
http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/results/ps/policeresponse

I, and my other US citizens with concealed weapons permits and/or guns at home, prefer not to be helpless for 10 minutes hoping a cop is going to show up. In an emergency situation whatever is going to happen has already happened after 10 minutes. By the time the cops show up its going to be a crime scene, not a rescue.

The idea of 'proving need' is a fallacy. We have numerous states and cities that say you need to 'prove need' for a CC license. Statistically you know what it means? It means they deny that license to hundreds of legitimate people because someone at a courthouse gets to decide whether you're 'worthy' by their biased standards. Background checks are fine. A bureaucrat deciding whether my 'need' is valid is not.

[Ephiral]

You know what? After reflecting on the matter, I just realised how little I care to get into this particular debate any further right now (never mind that it's wildly off-topic for the thread).

[bubby]

The following is the best thing I've seen on gun control:

The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 1

The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 2

The Daily Show: John Oliver's Australia & Gun Control's Aftermath

[Hemingway]

So, ah. Apparently there's now a fully 3D printed gun out there. I haven't read the article thoroughly, so I might be missing something. Here's one from CNN.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/06/tech/innovation/3d-gun-video/index.html

[Tairis]

@bubby

I do love the hell out of the daily show but I wouldn't exactly call it a fair and balanced review. The actual numbers for aussie land aren't quite so cut and dry :P

So, ah. Apparently there's now a fully 3D printed gun out there. I haven't read the article thoroughly, so I might be missing something. Here's one from CNN.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/06/tech/innovation/3d-gun-video/index.html

Yea, I'm curious to see how it holds up to actual testing. The lowers I could definitely see though I'm not sure how they're going to hold up on the long term. I can't grasp how ABS plastic is supposed to contain the pressures that the barrel and such are subjected to, though.

[Driskoll]

Wow. That happened way faster than I thought possible. I guess it will still be a few years before anything bigger can be made and/or printing a fully assembled weapon. Not really sure how to feel about this though.

[Healergirl]

Mmph.  One round fired, and we can't be sure some of the propellant was emptied out of the cartridge first.

I wouldn't shoot the thing.  Usable home-fabricated guns are coming... but I'm not sure this qualifies.

[Sasquatch421]

Hell, my one issue of Game Informer had advertised a book on making working guns out of legos... Can't remember the name right off hand... I'll see if I can find it even if they wouldn't be 3D printed.

Though I wouldn't fire the thing either...

[Oniya]

Hell, my one issue of Game Informer had advertised a book on making working guns out of legos... Can't remember the name right off hand... I'll see if I can find it even if they wouldn't be 3D printed.

Though I wouldn't fire the thing either...

Not unless it was powered by rubber bands and springs, and used the little '1-bys' as ammo.

Ah, Internet.  I love you so!

http://nostarch.com/legoheavyweapons

[Sasquatch421]

Yeah I just found it as well... They did use the 1-bys for ammo and really nifty looking at them.

[Neysha]

While you are all wasting time with overly pricey wiki guns...

$7 12-Gauge Zip Gun Homemade Shotgun

[MercyfulFate]

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

Gun violence is at a 20 year low, yet Americans are convinced it's as bad as it's ever been. That's media driven perceptions for ya!