The Inherent Racism of Modern Mainstream Rap Music

[Euron Greyjoy]

Having always been a fan on old school hip hop acts like Wu Tang Clan, NWA, Tupac, Biggie Smalls, Arrested Development, Onyx, and Geto Boys, I was always disgusted by modern mainstream rap. A lot of modern rappers I lack skill or flow of past rappers, but theres more to it then that. Modern rap promotes negative stereotypes of  black people, yet the young black youth is lapping it up. Rap went from positivity and brotherhood to  how many big booty bitches you have in your music video, how many drugs you do, how much money you have, and how much stuff you own. Rap music also promotes the stereotype of black men being violent.

17th cenutry Hottentot



21st century  rap music video



The Hottentot sterotype comes from the days of slavery, in which black women were seen as overly promiscuous that they would actually attack men. 

What goes for rap today

Put in work, run up on a killer then I put him in the dirt
Run up in the buildin', semi gon' squirt
That's what a nigga get when they getting on my nerves
I ain't lying, lay 'em on the curb
Riding on a killer who be coming at Ferg! (Damn)
Girl you twerk, twerk that kitty girl make it purr
Put in work, Flacko put 'em in the dirt
French got the shovel he gon' put him in the earth
Trinidad maniac with a all gold hearse
Yeah, uh, put in work
Schoolboy Q with a pound of the purp
So much work he'll smoke up the Earth

Though what really bothers me is the idea the people behind the scenes who own the record companies, are white. They are the ones controlling the music and the advertising. Though they are mostly responsible, the blame should really fall on the fans.  After all they are the ones buying music, that promotes negative stereotypes. So why is mainstream rap music so popular? Is it because it gives kids the fantasy of being rich and famous or do people just don't care, due to that sick beat doe?

[Oniya]

Though what really bothers me is the idea the people behind the scenes who own the record companies, are white. They are the ones controlling the music and the advertising. Though they are mostly responsible, the blame should really fall on the fans.  After all they are the ones buying music, that promotes negative stereotypes. So why is mainstream rap music so popular? Is it because it gives kids the fantasy of being rich and famous or do people just don't care, due to that sick beat doe?

I have to agree with you about the messages inherent in many popular rap lyrics, but I was under the impression that there were at least a few big name rap labels that were owned and operated by non-whites?  (I'm speaking as a complete outsider here.  The closest things to rap that I've listened to recently are Pet Shop Boys and Murray Head.)

[Euron Greyjoy]

There might be some, but the majority are white owned. For example Interscope and Def Jam records both have white presidents. Some more information I found about who actually controls music.

As of this writing, there are five giant music companies that dominate and control the music business. They are Universal Music Group, Warner Music, Sony Music Group, BMG, and EMI. Operating through several hundred subsidiaries and over a thousand labels, these five
companies, according to Nielson SoundScan figures, control approximately 86% of the U.S. and world music market, and all but EMI are part of even larger global entertainment conglomerates.

As you can see the modern day rap  industry is like that of the minstrel shows. However, instead of white guys with black face making fools of themselves, they have genuine black people chucking and jiving. Hell NAS and Nick Cannon made a video about it. Though I think some of it comes from NAS being jealous, that hes no longer popular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVqVwGWocM

[Sabby]

Oh man, do I finally get to talk about the kids and their rap music? =D It's just noise, why do they have to swear so much? I'm 25, too early for this kind of talkin'!

[Euron Greyjoy]

Oh man, do I finally get to talk about the kids and their rap music? =D It's just noise, why do they have to swear so much? I'm 25, too early for this kind of talkin'!

Eh I'm twenty two, so I'm relatively old. I think this is important because modern rap not only affects the way some blacks act, but also affects the views of some whites on blacks.

[Lux12]

You aren't alone in saying this. Spike Lee is one of the many people thinking the same thing.

To be honest, I've never been a huge hip-hop fan and I've only really recently been able to bring myself to buy anything by hip hop artists because it did seem that for so long it was dominated by this minstrelsy aesthetic which betrayed its revolutionary roots. I wanted to hear another Chuck D shouting "Fight the power!" not Trinidad James going on about how he has "All gold everything"(Though I readily admit that's an awesome stage name). Hip hop was invented to empower the underclass and black people in particular and now a bunch of white record execs neglect the artists with something to say about society who remember in their souls those first djs, mcs, and b-boys/girls who took to the streets to create a new cultural path that would allow people to hear their voice. I mean even artists who are often stereotyped as reckless hooligans had something really important to say about the struggles of black people. Tupac, NWA, Ice Cube,  Bone Thugs, and others had something to say. The public may not have been comfortable with it, but dammit they had a message and come hell or high water they were going to make sure someone heard them.  While the stereotypical gangsta aesthetic stands out in the minds of many the so called current wave of "glam rap" is even worse because it does not even discuss uncomfortable realities.  Corporate America feeds the masses these stereotypical images and attempts to make sure it's the only one the public sees. Granted the artists are not to blame entirely afterall, the white run record labels do actively choose to neglect the rappers that would speak against this sort of thing in favor of those they think they can sell to the public in minstrel show style. They promote these images, they advertise, and they try to pull the strings to decide which singles you hear on the radio and which videos you see on youtube.  It doesn't help that this the image white Americans (who still make up the bulk of the population) eat up. Part of it may be unconscious bias, another peer pressure, and of course the fact that this is the image the corporate powers that be seek to expose the public to. To be frank, I think America needs to change its mind collectively. We need to change attitudes in the broader society to stop this.

In my opinion even the beats have suffered as a result.

[Euron Greyjoy]

You aren't alone in saying this. Spike Lee is one of the many people thinking the same thing.

To be honest, I've never been a huge hip-hop fan and I've only really recently been able to bring myself to buy anything by hip hop artists because it did seem that for so long it was dominated by this minstrelsy aesthetic which betrayed its revolutionary roots. I wanted to hear another Chuck D shouting "Fight the power!" not Trinidad James going on about how he has "All gold everything"(Though I readily admit that's an awesome stage name). Hip hop was invented to empower the underclass and black people in particular and now a bunch of white record execs neglect the artists with something to say about society who remember in their souls those first djs, mcs, and b-boys/girls who took to the streets to create a new cultural path that would allow people to hear their voice. I mean even artists who are often stereotyped as reckless hooligans had something really important to say about the struggles of black people. Tupac, NWA, Ice Cube,  Bone Thugs, and others had something to say. The public may not have been comfortable with it, but dammit they had a message and come hell or high water they were going to make sure someone heard them.  While the stereotypical gangsta aesthetic stands out in the minds of many the so called current wave of "glam rap" is even worse because it does not even discuss uncomfortable realities.  Corporate America feeds the masses these stereotypical images and attempts to make sure it's the only one the public sees. Granted the artists are not to blame entirely afterall, the white run record labels do actively choose to neglect the rappers that would speak against this sort of thing in favor of those they think they can sell to the public in minstrel show style. They promote these images, they advertise, and they try to pull the strings to decide which singles you hear on the radio and which videos you see on youtube.  It doesn't help that this the image white Americans (who still make up the bulk of the population) eat up. Part of it may be unconscious bias, another peer pressure, and of course the fact that this is the image the corporate powers that be seek to expose the public to. To be frank, I think America needs to change its mind collectively. We need to change attitudes in the broader society to stop this.

In my opinion even the beats have suffered as a result.

Agreed, but seeing how music has become background noise the beats are adequate.

Other then not having millions of dollars, a big house, a ton of bitches, a lot of cars, and etc what are these fans missing? Then again most of these rappers don't even have all those things, the record company provides them to act as props. The only thing I can think of is rap provides fulfills a void for masculinity, the fans are missing. However, this cant be so because metal is pretty manly and doesn't need big booty women, in their music videos. Then again I cant imagine girls shaking their butts to lyrics about Satan, war, serial killers, and political issues.

I mean we went from this, a song about showing the prejudice of 911 when it came to answering emergency calls from the ghettos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wBVVZ9RU_c

To this a song about some asshole, who allegedly sells crack to the community. What a good mission to give to the kids, Mr. 2 Chainz. You don't need to go to school kids, just sell crack. I mean it worked for 2 Chainz didn't it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVjeKltMVJs

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I honestly question how much responsibility falls on fans.  Advertisers are not paid so that a company can simply have an advertising budget.  This is an industry designed to coherence and tempt people into buying a product.  Rap music is more than simply lyrics and songs, but the branding of a lifestyle that is part of not only the American dream but also the underprivileged.  The music features rags to riches stories which Americans are brought up to worship and believe.  Someone from the ghetto now has money raining from the sky and women rubbing on them.  For someone that is struggling to get by, has few prospects and truly feels as if the world is against them such songs give them some hope and meaning.  Mix that with an advertising campaign that pushes the artist and their songs as legitimate, as one of “them” and there is a myth people want to buy into here.  That they too can make it.

[Euron Greyjoy]

I honestly question how much responsibility falls on fans.  Advertisers are not paid so that a company can simply have an advertising budget.  This is an industry designed to coherence and tempt people into buying a product.  Rap music is more than simply lyrics and songs, but the branding of a lifestyle that is part of not only the American dream but also the underprivileged.  The music features rags to riches stories which Americans are brought up to worship and believe.  Someone from the ghetto now has money raining from the sky and women rubbing on them.  For someone that is struggling to get by, has few prospects and truly feels as if the world is against them such songs give them some hope and meaning.  Mix that with an advertising campaign that pushes the artist and their songs as legitimate, as one of “them” and there is a myth people want to buy into here.  That they too can make it.

You bring up brilliant points and it reminds me of the self help books/selfmade rags to riches stories. However, there is the inherent problem of limited social mobility, in this tough economy. Hell even with a good economy its hard for people to move from poor to rich. My main thing is if they are a low of the social economical totem pole, they shouldn't be buying rap CDs. Instead they should be saving or investing money, so they can actually get out of their rut. However, that is cruel to say that they should give up entertainment just for money.

[Valthazar]

The music features rags to riches stories which Americans are brought up to worship and believe.  Someone from the ghetto now has money raining from the sky and women rubbing on them.  For someone that is struggling to get by, has few prospects and truly feels as if the world is against them such songs give them some hope and meaning.

Contrary to popular belief, those in the ghettos are not necessarily the sole target audience for much of hip hop music.  It's a controversial statistic for sure, and one that is often debated, but anywhere from 40-70% of consumers are white.  Whatever the percentage is, the fact is that this kind of music, and music videos, appeal to a wide socioeconomic audience.

As an example, suburban white kids love flashing gang signs and snorting Smarties candies to pretend they are using cocaine.  Recently a University of Alabama student was kicked out for making a "racial slur."  In reality, she probably had a sheltered life, and feels 'ghetto' by making a statement like, "Chi O got NO n***as!!!" - something we'd hear in mainstream rap.  (The N-word often has a different negative meaning in the context of rap - referring to being lazy or less successful, as opposed to its more commonly known negative meaning in mainstream society).

[Euron Greyjoy]

Contrary to popular belief, those in the ghettos are not necessarily the sole target audience for much of hip hop music.  It's a controversial statistic for sure, and one that is often debated, but anywhere from 40-70% of consumers are white.  Whatever the percentage is, the fact is that this kind of music, and music videos, appeal to a wide socioeconomic audience.

As an example, suburban white kids love flashing gang signs and snorting Smarties candies to pretend they are using cocaine.  Recently a University of Alabama student was kicked out for making a "racial slur."  In reality, she probably had a sheltered life, and feels 'ghetto' by making a statement like, "Chi O got NO n***as!!!" - something we'd hear in mainstream rap.  (The N-word often has a different negative meaning in the context of rap - referring to being lazy or less successful, as opposed to its more commonly known negative meaning in mainstream society).

I can believe I forgot to mention that in my OP. My main question is why is supposed black culture, popular among whitey? My guess for white males at least, was the idea is rap music fulfills a void of masculinity for these kids.

[Oniya]

There is an overabundance of what we used to call 'bubblegum pop' these days, and a lot less 'angry young man' music (other than rap), as far as I can tell.  Perhaps that's the appeal.  There's also the weird idea that criminality or 'gangster' things are 'cool' (for example, the whole 'saggy pants' phenomenon).   I'm still looking for an explanation for that.

[Valthazar]

Purely my opinion, and I'm sure many will disagree, but there seems to almost be a subtle emasculation of white males in media.  Whether it is in sitcoms where men are often portrayed as the lovable idiot (Everybody Loves Raymond, Two and Half Men, King of Queens, etc), or in music videos like White & Nerdy.

In addition, in advertisements featuring a black male and a white male, more often than not, it is the white male that is portrayed as the "less cool" one.  Check out these ads:
Samsung Galaxy S5 Commercial
Subway Commercial

These are just examples - but I think it's clear that if a song like White & Nerdy were targeted at black males, there would be an uproar on social media.  In addition, just as many feminists point out the sexism present in video games and media, people would be quick to point out the stereotyping of blacks in advertisements, if they were the ones frequently portrayed as the "less informed" one.

As such, it is not surprising that many young white males want to avoid this seemingly "uncool stigma" of... being a white male.  Combine this with the hyper-sexualization attributed to black males, as Euron Greyjoy mentioned, and it only exacerbates the problem.

[Euron Greyjoy]

Theres always metal that promotes masculinity.  Also Valthazar is correct about how being a white male, in now uncool. Across all forms of media white men are portrayed negatively. Like in sitcoms they are portrayed at fumbling man children, who would be lost without their all powerful wife.

[consortium11]

I think there are two points here.

The first is the watering down of hip-hop as it becomes mainstream. Euron Greyjoy's already pointed out the difference between hip-hop acts of a previous generation and the current crop but likewise if one delves below the "hot 40" or whatever the charts are called one can find a selection of excellent "underground" rappers, MC's, producers etc putting out a lot of quality work, much of which is a lot more self-aware and intelligent than the stuff in the charts. That's not to say that there isn't awful stuff on the underground hip-hop scene... there is, frequently just as bad as the mainstream acts people decry but with a lower budget.

But hip-hop is far from alone in that.

You can take basically any genre that's made it into the charts and see how the current chart darlings generally produce lesser music then either their forefathers or the more underground scene. Punk with the pop-punk craze of the late 90's/early 2000's, post-hardcore with the rise of emo, metal with the rise of nu-metal and the screamo variations, the difference between the pounding techno one would hear if they made it through the queue into Berghain (something everyone should do once in their life) and the sort of cheesy techno that hits the charts, dubstep fans having to listen to Taylor Swift incorporate a few elements into her songs. Hell, I'm sure somewhere out there there's some country and western fans bemoaning how poppy and commercial all these new singers sound compared to the good ol' days.

As a general rule the mass-market version of a genre is going to be toned down... musically, lyrically and thematically. To use hip-hop as an example it's far less controversial to rap about making a lot of money and having a lot of sex with a soft beat playing below then it is to "fuck tha police" over a pretty aggressive backing beat. To take punk it's a lot safer to have a happy poppy song about a failed relationship sung by some nice looking clean cut young men than an angry, spite-filled anthem about the way the rich seem immune to the law sung by a scary lookin' fellow. That's simply the way of the world.

But one thing about hip-hop is seemingly unique.

The way it's associated with black (and in particular African American) culture.

Other genres should arguably be associated with a skin colour as well... rock is largely the domain of the white man, as is punk. Some even are... country and western is largely associated with white people as well. But none of those genres have quite the same connection to race that hip-hop seems to. Country and Western may be associated with white people but it's generally associated with white people from the South of the US... there is no such geographic restriction when it comes to hip-hop. Sure, there's east-coast vs west-coast vs dirty-south and all that but they're all seen as hip-hop and hip-hop is seen as black man's music in the way that other genres aren't.

Pretty much wherever one is in the West it seems to be an unspoken assumption that any black person... regardless of background, appearance or any other factor... likes hip-hop. There's no such assumption for a white person. There may be one based on dress sense or location but simply from being white? Not so much.

And that's rather strange to me.

[Euron Greyjoy]

Well black people did invent hip hoppity music, but they also invented blues and jazz. However, a lot of white musicians played the blues and jazz during their heydays, so both became American genres. I hate to stereotype (going to stereotype anyway), but a lot of black youth get their sense of identity from rap music. As they see rap as something uniquely theres with the odd pale face.

[Valthazar]

Pretty much wherever one is in the West it seems to be an unspoken assumption that any black person... regardless of background, appearance or any other factor... likes hip-hop. There's no such assumption for a white person. There may be one based on dress sense or location but simply from being white? Not so much.

And that's rather strange to me.

I think this is part of a broader issue.  If we are ever going to become a post-racial society, where we judge people on the content of their character, we all need to move past this basal logic where something is only "ours" if it is of "our" ethnicity.  Like consortium says, white people have largely moved past this, but the black community still holds onto this.  I can certainly empathize with the historical biases the black community has faced, but continuing to hold onto this "otherness" is only dividing us all.

Sadly, many black male youths are intimidated by their black peers if they show interest in school, or going to college - as these are often associated as the domain of "whites," and somehow deviating from the black community.  Many of the things we (assuming most of us are not low-income blacks) herald as racial progress are actually not embraced by the black community.  For example, we may think interracial relationships are a sign of unity between whites and blacks.  However, given that far more black males than black women have interracial relationships, many attribute this to the decline of black urban communities, as single motherhood has drastically increased.

As such, while individual black men and women become immersed into "mainstream" American culture, this is often perceived as a threat to the black community, which is dealing with many of its own issues.  Hip hop may be seen as a way to retaliate against this steady integration into white culture (which at least to some, integration into white culture may appear to be at the detriment of their community). 

This may also be the underlying mentality which leads to other 'minor' concerns, such as the need for a black Santa Claus, and other representations of 'otherness.'

[Euron Greyjoy]

If you guys want to see something really sad, play these two songs at the same time. If you don't see the problem, you are  the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMK45nYx4oc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SBN_ikibtg

As long as mainstream rap continues to promote negative stereotypes of blacks, the Bill o'Reillys of the world  will always have fuel to be prejudice against blacks. Its bad enough they call rap thug music and think only thugs listen to it.

[Valthazar]

I guess the point is, why criticize the media when several members within the black community itself seem to actively want to embrace these so-called "negative stereotypes" present in mainstream rap videos?  I certainly feel that they have the ability to decide whether certain behaviors are positive or negative (such as drug use, manner of dress, etc.)

It's largely a moot point when several of us, as non-blacks, decry a certain behavior as 'negative' when the members of that community seem to be actively embracing it.  Is it possible that what we proclaim to be negative is actually a behavior that this sub-community seems to embrace as a distorted form of ethnic identity?  (akin to how the n-word has been embraced by the black community - which is a negative word in our eyes, but a positive in theirs).

For example, this is a documentary-style video shot featuring many of the residents of Marcy Projects (a government public housing project in NYC).  I am sure many of them are aware that dressing in such a manner, and using so much profanity, n-words, and saying "f*** the blue and white" are preventing them from gaining employment.  But to them, cleaning up their act is deviating from their understanding of "black culture" - as flawed an understanding as that may be.

As I mentioned earlier, many young black males are actively discouraged by their black peers from studying hard and trying to develop themselves professionally, since it is often viewed as betraying their community.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_dipQxaTTU

[Euron Greyjoy]

Perhaps because if they don't promote negative stereotypes, record labels won't pick them up and give them  a record deal. So rappers have three choices don't rap, be an underground rapper and don't promote negative stereotypes, or sell out their race for a quick buck. I mean look at all the rap groups who had one hit wonders then disappeared. Mainly these groups one hit wonder songs were dance songs.

While a stretch there is a correlation....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcFQjG3TiBw

The sad thing this isn't the official group/artist video, but a fan one. And wait theres more! This isn't the only one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRBLmogRL4c

It just breaks my heart that we went from Muddy Waters and Duke Ellington to Lil Wayne and 2Chainz.

[Valthazar]

Euron, I don't know your heritage, but as a non-black myself, I feel that it is rather pompous for me to start dictating to the black community what is positive behavior and what is negative behavior.  I think what all of us can agree on though, is that the media is portraying blacks poorly in rap videos - and like you said, many of these are produced by non-blacks.

But what are we to say when many blacks are openly supporting and re-enacting these depictions?  Do we try to convince them that this distorted expression of "black culture" is negative?  They would likely find that to be extremely racist - as if we knew more about what is "proper" black culture than they did!

I understand the concerns you are making, but as a non-black person myself, I don't feel comfortable trying to convince countless people in the black community that they are "selling out their race" (as you say) by choosing to dance how they feel is a genuine expression of their culture.

[Euron Greyjoy]

Now that you said that and I had the time to think about it, you're right. It is highly pompous of me as a white person, to try to dictate what is good or bad behavior. And I wasn't saying the fans were selling out their race, I was referring to the rappers who make songs like Does Your Chain Hang Low and Crack. We all are members of the human race and these negative stereotypes are only hurting things, not fixing them.

[Valthazar]

I think we can compare it to feminism today.  Women notice that they are being portrayed negatively in the media, and the women themselves choose to transform these sexist representations.  On the other hand, if women were actively embracing these sexist depictions, it would be rather odd (and probably insulting) for men to start instructing women on what is positive for them.

It is things like this that what we need:  Those within the black community itself who are encouraging positive behavior (as we also see it).  It is rather sad that even one of the CNN commentators considers this a bad thing, but then again, who am I to tell him what is right or wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKiQxfEDvOI

[Sho]

If you guys want to see something really sad, play these two songs at the same time. If you don't see the problem, you are  the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMK45nYx4oc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SBN_ikibtg

As long as mainstream rap continues to promote negative stereotypes of blacks, the Bill o'Reillys of the world  will always have fuel to be prejudice against blacks. Its bad enough they call rap thug music and think only thugs listen to it.

Just had to add that that tune in general is actually a really popular Southern children's song about hounds and how long their ears are. My guess is that 2Chainz was pulling on that (particularly considering the lyrics - do your chain hang low compared to do your ears hang low). That was a song that I sang every day when I was little, and it had nothing to do with race or rap culture. Here's the children's song, just FYI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzPt3Y2E_Rc

[consortium11]

Just had to add that that tune in general is actually a really popular Southern children's song about hounds and how long their ears are. My guess is that 2Chainz was pulling on that (particularly considering the lyrics - do your chain hang low compared to do your ears hang low). That was a song that I sang every day when I was little, and it had nothing to do with race or rap culture. Here's the children's song, just FYI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzPt3Y2E_Rc

It's actually the other way around.

"Turkey in the Straw" and "Zip Coon" both use the same music but different lyrics. It's hard to point to which came first; both were popular in the 1820's and 1830's with Zip Coon arguably being more popular as it was taken on by blackface artists.

The "Do your ears hang low" version is a later development, generally seen as being developed in the early 1900's and becoming popular during the first world war. The first historical reference to it I know of is actually a version known as "do your balls hang low" which was sung by British soldiers during the Somme; it's quite likely that the "ears hang low" lyrics was an attempt to sanitize the more obscene lyrics... and that in turn that was a way to remove the racist connotations of the earlier song.

[Sabby]

Wait, ears hanging low is a racist stereotype? That's a new one to me.

[Euron Greyjoy]

Its not, but the song incorporates the melody of the racist song "Zip Coon". Which consortium11 pointed out.

[Sho]

Huh. Well, I learned something new today. Thank you!

That being said, I don't really think a rapper sampling that song really is the best example of black musicians using racist stereotyping against themselves in their music. I doubt that many people would even have made that connection in terms of the tunes being similar; it's a bit misleading to sample the Zip Coon song and imply that 2Chainz was sampling a song that is inherently racist when, for most people (at least where I grew up), the connotation would instead be that he was playing with a traditional children's tune that everyone grew up with.

I also don't necessarily think the music is racist in and of itself; the lyrics, though many are asinine, generally reflect what their lives are like. In the ghetto, selling drugs is often the only way that kids have any hope of getting some real money. There isn't any sort of substantial education.

Yes, there is pressure to not be 'nerdy', but it's different than has been implied earlier. In my experience, going to school is seen as uncool because it's a complete waste of time. The level of education (the facilities, over-full classrooms, and lack of any real educational materials) ensure that a high school degree from these schools means almost nothing. Forget going to college - the kids I've worked with who went to college from the ghetto were forced to take at least a year, if not more, of remedial classes in order to have the chance to even pass community college classes. Going to school is seen as a waste when you could be making money - and being underage, selling drugs is a quick way to do that, and if you've done it when you're young then it becomes a main source of income as you get older. Pair that with neighborhoods that are generally plagued by high levels of street crime and gang violence...well. That's all the kids see; if you grow up in a social circle with certain values, you inherently pick up on them. The violence is so inherent that most of the kids - and the rappers who come out of these neighborhoods - live with a 'live fast, die young' mentality. They don't rap about deeper issues because they have no reason to think that anything with ever change.

That's not to say that I think rap music today is good, or promotes a good image. I think that earlier rap was more coherent in their messages demanding social change. That being said...I think the matter is fairly complicated. If we were to provide decent employment opportunities as well as better education in low-income heavily-minority-filled neighborhoods, I think you would see the negative racial stereotypes promoted in music change rapidly.

...Sorry if that's not too clear. Long day at work. :P

[la dame en noir]

As a black woman, I always found it as brainwashing. From years of slavery and oppression, I still think many black people still have this mindset. Back then, It wasn't sexy or attractive to have big asses or curves. So, the racist white community deemed black women Jezebels and it was our fault if we were raped, because our bodies were too sexually arousing. But ever since the song "I like Big Butts", now its a thing to have an ass.

Another thing that rap has also contributed to is the light skin vs dark skin. This is also a slave mentality where darker skin blacks were kept outside and deemed ugly. But the lighter skinned ones were kept inside, used as mistresses, and raped. Then came the mixed child and they ended up passing for white and thus were also allowed to own slaves themselves. This kind of thinking still resides in my community and its quite sad.

[Euron Greyjoy]

Could you perhaps provide examples of light vs dark skin in rap? I've always heard there was some kind of beef between the two, but I never thought it came from hip hop.

[la dame en noir]

Could you perhaps provide examples of light vs dark skin in rap? I've always heard there was some kind of beef between the two, but I never thought it came from hip hop.

I'm talking about the video vixens, not necessarily the word content.

[Mathim]

I remember working night shifts at a gas station and there was this pervasive delusion, presumably a mental virus transmitted by this sort of brainwashing music, where these poor black males (not just young ones; I was around 20 at the time and one of them had to be around his mid-30's if not older) would brag about "I'm 'bout to be getting a record deal" and other ridiculous nonsense and one of them even chatted up a limo driver who came in to gas up the limo he was driving, saying he'd hire him as his driver once his record contract came through. I mean, seriously? Is there so little logic going on that these poor deluded people think it's that easy? I see others selling their own CD's outside of convenience/liquor stores who are at least taking it upon their own initiative to become successful without just lucking out so they've at least put more thought and effort into it, which I kind of respect. But every time they offer one of their CD's, even for only a dollar, I decline because, as I tell them, "The entire genre just has absolutely no appeal for me whatsoever." Whether that sounds like a criticism or insult, it's the truth.

Another anecdote from my gas station days was something that still sticks with me today. A white woman pulls up, her radio blasting, and when she opens her door before turning off the car, all I hear is some angry voice screaming, "Niggas, I just wanna fuck, fuck, fuck..." before the radio or whatever she was listening to died. I seriously couldn't just ignore that and asked her how she could possibly want to listen to that. She kept a straight face and said it wasn't the lyrics she was listening to, it was 'the beat'. While that may very well be, I sure as hell could not possibly ignore something like those lyrics no matter how much I may have liked the melody they accompanied. Thoughts?

[Oniya]

She kept a straight face and said it wasn't the lyrics she was listening to, it was 'the beat'. While that may very well be, I sure as hell could not possibly ignore something like those lyrics no matter how much I may have liked the melody they accompanied. Thoughts?

I'm reminded of the quintessential quote from American Bandstand:  'It's got a good beat and you can dance to it!'  (for historical reference, the phrase was in reaction to this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWdId6h017Q

in the 'Rate a Record' segment.)

[la dame en noir]

However, we always judge rap music, but we don't look at some of the rock music out there today.

I remember hearing rock songs that would talk about burning small animals and the devil and killing people. Suicide also seems to be one of the bigger topics in some of the rock I heard growing up. No one ever really says anything about that, but they turn right around talk about what black people listen to and do.

[Mathim]

However, we always judge rap music, but we don't look at some of the rock music out there today.

I remember hearing rock songs that would talk about burning small animals and the devil and killing people. Suicide also seems to be one of the bigger topics in some of the rock I heard growing up. No one ever really says anything about that, but they turn right around talk about what black people listen to and do.

Isn't rap supposed to be more culturally linked, though, and not just appealing to or produced by fringe groups like some of this other stuff you mention? Those rock songs you mention might be speaking to everybody in general, but in a lot of rap where they're calling themselves or their listeners the n-word, I'm pretty sure they're talking to a specific group. I could be wrong but that's pretty much what I think this thread centers on the racist element of that particular genre and not the non-racist (but still pretty fucked up) elements of other genres.

[Sabby]

As someone whose listened to metal his whole life, I'm not seeing the two as being remotely comparable. Every genre has it's handful of songs you wouldn't want to play with your family around, but there's few genres out there that do it like rap. It's just so consistent in how debauched it is, and that's not a bad thing. Doesn't bother me if someone wants to listen to things like 'Dollah on mah dick', I just don't think it's fair to say that rock is anywhere near the same level.

[la dame en noir]

I'm quite certain you don't have any idea exactly where I'm getting at with my post.

[la dame en noir]

Isn't rap supposed to be more culturally linked, though, and not just appealing to or produced by fringe groups like some of this other stuff you mention? Those rock songs you mention might be speaking to everybody in general, but in a lot of rap where they're calling themselves or their listeners the n-word, I'm pretty sure they're talking to a specific group. I could be wrong but that's pretty much what I think this thread centers on the racist element of that particular genre and not the non-racist (but still pretty fucked up) elements of other genres.

Actually no, especially whenever is going around saying "Nigga" in the first place. It always irks me that people don't know the difference between the two.

[Oniya]

However, we always judge rap music, but we don't look at some of the rock music out there today.

I remember hearing rock songs that would talk about burning small animals and the devil and killing people. Suicide also seems to be one of the bigger topics in some of the rock I heard growing up. No one ever really says anything about that, but they turn right around talk about what black people listen to and do.

Actually, there was a big brouhaha about sex, drugs, violence, suicide and devil worship in rock lyrics back in the 1980's.   Frank Zappa, John Denver, and Dee Snider (of Twisted Sister fame) testified before the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee in August of 1985.  Before the hearings had concluded, the RIAA started putting those 'Parental Advisory' stickers on albums.

[Kythia]

Dee Snider pointed out that he wasn't gonna take it, no he wasn't gonna take it, he wasn't going to take it, any more.

IIRC.

[Oniya]

That song actually made the PMRC's 'Filthy Fifteen' (for violence), along with Darling Nikki, She Bop (who knew verb conjugation could be dirty?), Sugar Walls, and WASP's 'Animal'.

One of the more amusing moments of the hearing was that - after then-Senator Al Gore had expressed that he was a fan of and greatly admired both Zappa and Denver - Dee Snider asked him if he was going to say he was a fan of Twisted Sister as well.

[Euron Greyjoy]

Dee Snider pointed out that he wasn't gonna take it, no he wasn't gonna take it, he wasn't going to take it, any more.

IIRC.

Marry me <3

But in all seriousness most metalheads aren't serial killers or worship Satan, but a lot of rap fans try to emulate the lifestyle of rappers.

[Lux12]

However, we always judge rap music, but we don't look at some of the rock music out there today.

I remember hearing rock songs that would talk about burning small animals and the devil and killing people. Suicide also seems to be one of the bigger topics in some of the rock I heard growing up. No one ever really says anything about that, but they turn right around talk about what black people listen to and do.

There's an entire subgenre of hip hop that talks about that stuff too. It's called horrorcore and people have been attacking that quite viciously for some time now. Granted most of those artists aren't my cup of tea because their lyrics typically don't talk about my style of horror, but yeah people are perhaps a bit too harsh on horrorcore artists when their lyrical content isn't all that different from those that thrash metal, black metal and death metal bands have been using for ages. It may not be my style, but some times I think the criticism is a bit too harsh.

Plus people have attacked that and all manner of rock through out history over lyrical content. They did it in the 60s with drug content, more of the same in 70s, but that's when people started thinking the devil was in every song. In the 80s they had the whole PMRC thing where it fever pitch and people flipped shit about Marilyn Manson and continue the satanic panic with regards to rock music. It was also during that time that everyone got up in arms about Cop Killer by  rap metal band Body Count which is fronted by Gangsta Rap legend Ice T. However, Ice T had something to say when he and his band composed that song. It wasn't Cannibal Corpse who, no offense to their fans, wrote about seemingly mindless and ridiculously explicit gore with no intent other than to shock (which is precisely the reason I can't listen to them). But that's been going on for so long that it feels like you're beating a dead horse when someone says "OMG that rock band said something shocking!" People have been judging rock music since the 50s when a number of radio stations and older people were terrified of it because they thought it was too sexual and too black. That's right, back in the 50s, racism was a reason some people hated rock music. In fact, many of the early great pioneers were black Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, Fats Domino, and many others were architects of the sound back then.

I can certainly tell you that the NSBM bands certainly aren't looked upon with kindness by most rock fans. I mean, nazi metal music seems kind of antithetical if you ask me. Especially considering what an inspiration the blues and jazz have been to metal musicians and all rock genres in general. It has always seemed absurd to be a racist and be a fan of rock music to me.

The other thing I think that upsets people with regards to this is the apparent degradation of a culture and music style that had revolutionary roots. The decay of a genre that was founded in social consciousness. Some people feel that it has been corrupted form it's original state. They're terrified that the revolutionary spirit from which hip hop first hip hop artists emerged has become lost in a sea of  bling and braggadocio based rhymes. I have to admit that's one of the reasons I couldn't get into much rap music for a long time.  That and the beats didn't seem quite as good for a long time.Even he first gangsta rappers were people with a revolutionary outlook. What people forget is that those artists were basically activists talking about unpleasant truths.

This is similar to one of the reasons a lot of people got up in arms about pop-punk bands in the punk subculture. It seemed so divorced from the rebellious, socially critical, often political nature of punk that most earlier forms had championed. People had a similar gripe about emo (which oddly enough did have revolutionary roots as protest against perceived lack of real emotion in mainstream music.) Grunge was sort of born of a similar reaction to Pop Metal/Glam Metal in the eighties.

However I won't argue that you don't have a good point. A lot of things that have origins in the culture of black people, music, fashion, slang, literature, and many other things have been ridiculed and treated as lesser if not out right ignored throughout history. We should be more careful and consider the reasons why we are criticizing something related to the culture of black people.  Maybe we just don't understand as well as we think we do. No art should be considered totally above criticism, but  we should be more mindful of why we're criticizing it.

[Silk]

I can't see much Rythem and poetry in most modern Rap

[la dame en noir]

When I took a class in American music, I was shocked to see that these songs from back in the day were just as raunchy, if not worse than what we listen to now. Hokem Blues was known for its completely and utterly dirty and sexual content and I've always wondered why my people were such a sexual group.

But then you look at the development of Rock n Roll and see that those same elements from blues are directed into that genre of music as well. Hell, when Rock n Roll emerged, white people called it  (rather the older generation) "Jungle music" or "Colored music" because it was rooted in black culture. So when Elvis came to the scene, white parents went nuts because now their white children had a white man that sounded black, singing these songs...thus corrupting their children.

So when I point out certain styles of Rock, I mean it as a here now thing...
Rock is associated with a white crowd now(for whatever reason) and not very much negativity is thrown that way. But if it has to do with black folks (and its not Jazz or Blues) its bashed until it can't be bashed anymore.

[Sabby]

Could you provide some kind of evidence that the majority of rock top rock singles in the charts glorify satanism and suicide?

[la dame en noir]

Lord have mercy. I'm not talking about mainstream.
And what I'm talking about is how bad and terrible and evil is always linked with my fucking people.

[Valthazar]

Lord have mercy. I'm not talking about mainstream.
And what I'm talking about is how bad and terrible and evil is always linked with my fucking people.

I think the point we are all making is that the culture in mainstream rap music is NOT representative of African Americans, and is perpetuating harmful stereotypes that are unfortunately negatively affecting the African American community.

[Euron Greyjoy]

Outside of metal shows, you don't see a whole lot of people, living the lifestyle. Yet if you go to any predominately urban area, there are living the lifestyle rap promotes for better or worst.

[la dame en noir]

The point I'm making, seeing as I don't know whose black or not in this thread is: Every musical genre that was brought up in a black community was deemed bad in some way. It happened with Blues, Jazz, and Rock n Roll, now its Rap. I'm not saying Rap is an art form without flaws, i'm saying its just a little ridiculous that this genre is always being picked out among others.

[Euron Greyjoy]

You do got a point, a sad yet true point. However, when I made this thread, I wasn't aiming to degrade another black art form. I believe I came into this with an open mind and a heavy heart, pointing out the internal racism of modern rap.

[la dame en noir]

The entertainment business has its underlined racism. And the racism between black people is very apparent.

[Euron Greyjoy]

While yes that is indeed true, black rappers have the choice, of wither or not they want to rap a song that promotes negative stereotypes.

[la dame en noir]

When you grow up in a community where not every black person wants an education or feels that they can't go anywhere because they are being stereotyped, the easiest thing to do is go about it through entertainment. Its like slavery, my ancestor's had great musicality and could sing and dance...thats all we were good for.

So with the mindset that some have, thats what they gravitate towards. Its sad, but true.

[Valthazar]

I think what Euron Greyjoy is saying is that mainstream rappers today have a choice whether or not to present drug references, degrading speech about women, swear words, n-words, etc. 

Despite their millions, they continue to propagate the same negative messages (even if their managers are coercing them to).  The reality is that they still make the choice to go through with it.

[Euron Greyjoy]

Exactly. While perhaps a smaller market than in the past, there are people out there that want messages of black positivity like the days of Public Enemy, A Tribe Called Quest, and Arrested Development.

[la dame en noir]

There are other rappers out there that promote positivity. But, they don't get enough attention because of the entertainment business. Common is one of them. What I'm just trying to point out is WHY these things happen.

[TaintedAndDelish]

We ride roller coasters to experience fear in a safe way. Likewise, we watch movies and read books that explore situations and feelings that we might not otherwise be able to connect with. This is just my guess, but I'm willing to bet that introducing taboo topics like racism, slavery, poverty and crime into music might provide both the musician and listeners with a similar type of avenue to explore these topics from a safe distance.

With regard to the connection made between the "white" producers and racist material, if the material in question was not what the audience wanted, then they would not pay for it, and hence the "white" producers would not be making their money. Those who are successfully producing and marketing this music are successfully discovering what their audience wants and giving it to them. I think the idea that producers and marketers are somehow "brainwashing" the audience is a bit of a stretch. Try to sell something that nobody wants. You won't get very far.

[Valthazar]

With regard to the connection made between the "white" producers and racist material, if the material in question was not what the audience wanted, then they would not pay for it, and hence the "white" producers would not be making their money. Those who are successfully producing and marketing this music are successfully discovering what their audience wants and giving it to them. I think the idea that producers and marketers are somehow "brainwashing" the audience is a bit of a stretch. Try to sell something that nobody wants. You won't get very far.

Imagine if a Tupac existed today in the mainstream, rapping about meaningful social issues like his perspective on Ferguson, Missouri or other issues that impact the black community on a meaningful level.  I bet he would get a huge following - as much if more than the typical mainstream rapper talking about how easily he can get women or how rich he is.

[TaintedAndDelish]

That's possible, but sometimes you just want something dark and taboo. You want to hear someone say or shout the things that you are feeling, or you want someone to validate your feelings as taboo as they may be.  You are not really going to get that from a sanitized version of what you are looking for. When you crave bitter, sweet just doesn't cut it.

[Apple of Eris]

Imagine if a Tupac existed today in the mainstream, rapping about meaningful social issues like his perspective on Ferguson, Missouri or other issues that impact the black community on a meaningful level.  I bet he would get a huge following - as much if more than the typical mainstream rapper talking about how easily he can get women or how rich he is.

If that's what they were rapping about, they wouldn't be 'a Tupac'. Rappers cover the topics they do because they're popular and sell albums. There's still folk protest musicians in whit culture, but they get no coverage in the entertainment industry because those aren't you average pop happy songs; same thing with Rap. They have artists that do that, but they're not going to have the popular reach anymore that 'protest rap' did in the 80's/90's with groups like Public Enemy.

After all, where's the new generation's Bob Dylan? I don't hear them on rock radio either.

[Kythia]

If that's what they were rapping about, they wouldn't be 'a Tupac'. Rappers cover the topics they do because they're popular and sell albums. There's still folk protest musicians in whit culture, but they get no coverage in the entertainment industry because those aren't you average pop happy songs; same thing with Rap. They have artists that do that, but they're not going to have the popular reach anymore that 'protest rap' did in the 80's/90's with groups like Public Enemy.

After all, where's the new generation's Bob Dylan? I don't hear them on rock radio either.

This.

Record labels know what sells and what is popular - if a new anyone, not just Tupac, would actually be popular they would exist.  As Apple of Eris points out, its not that noone is making that music for the industry to promote, just that they're not promoting that music.

There's no money on the table.

[Valthazar]

I think Euron and I were referring to existing "mainstream" black rappers/artists reforming their ways after gaining popularity (regardless of their content) to set a new example now that they are famous.  For example, take the example of Kid Cudi a few years ago.  He announced openly that he is changing his ways to set a positive example.

He expressed on his Tumblr page that he's giving up smoking weed.  His new albums are going to be radio-friendly, and not contain any N-words.  Check out some of his tweets from when he turned around in 2011:

"Also, the WZRD album does not contain any profanity or the usage of the word “n**ga”. A universal album for everyone."

“Haha man some of yall really upset theres no profanity?? You know songs can be written with out them right? "

I'm not exactly a fan of Bill O'Reilly, but check out his speech in this video:  He totally reformed his ways once he gained fame, and setting a positive example, expressing the power of mainstream rap artists to enact change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75IJG0rEBHg

[Euron Greyjoy]

The question is it really racist, if they adopted at their own? I mean look at the N word. For the longest time it was hateful and ignorant word, but a lot of blacks adopted it, as a term of endearment.

[Mathim]

The point I'm making, seeing as I don't know whose black or not in this thread is: Every musical genre that was brought up in a black community was deemed bad in some way. It happened with Blues, Jazz, and Rock n Roll, now its Rap. I'm not saying Rap is an art form without flaws, i'm saying its just a little ridiculous that this genre is always being picked out among others.

Your point is perfectly valid, I wasn't aware you were making it before. The only thing I can think of as far as today why it gets comparatively more bad press is that the influence it has on behavior and culture is stronger, more visibly present and pervasive. You see way more youths acting out the thug life glamourized in some rap, than goth kids who listen to their style of music. Even if it's only media coverage of it, when it's more in our line of sight we tend to focus on it more. Personally, I see TONS of that stereotypical negative-rap-culture behavior from a majority of the young African-American males (ages 15-30's) on the two college campuses I frequent. So at least for me, it's not just a media hype thing.

[Valthazar]

Personally, I see TONS of that stereotypical negative-rap-culture behavior from a majority of the young African-American males (ages 15-30's) on the two college campuses I frequent. So at least for me, it's not just a media hype thing.

Me too.  I had a professor in undergrad say, "if you want to be an executive, then dress like an executive.  Fake it till you make it, because it works."

The sad part is that many of these African-American males are very talented and intelligent (accounting majors, education majors, etc.).  Yet, if they went out on the street, no one would take them seriously, because who in their right mind would honestly go to someone sagging their jeans and using the n-word, for their retirement planning?  If their accountant is acting like a thug, what does that say about his professionalism?

In the career center, there are a lot of kids (of all races) who say they have trouble getting any jobs or internships.  First step is to clean up your act, and behave like the people you want to be.

[Mathim]

Me too.  I had a professor in undergrad say, "if you want to be an executive, then dress like an executive.  Fake it till you make it, because it works."

The sad part is that many of these African-American males are very talented and intelligent (accounting majors, education majors, etc.).  Yet, if they went out on the street, no one would take them seriously, because who in their right mind would honestly go to someone sagging their jeans and using the n-word, for their retirement planning?  If their accountant is acting like a thug, what does that say about his professionalism?

In the career center, there are a lot of kids (of all races) who say they have trouble getting any jobs or internships.  First step is to clean up your act, and behave like the people you want to be.

That is logical. If you want to act the part when you're on your downtime, I could care less. If you're on a college campus I don't want to hear that music blasting away on your iPhone while you're walking down a hallway because you don't care about other people's desire not to be exposed to that; we have rules against that kind of thing so flouting them like that is wrong whether you believe that because you idolize rappers or not. I have actually had black students apologize to me for the behavior of other black students that embarrassed them so badly. THAT shit made my jaw drop. If someone's behavior is that bad, and it's because they believe the bullshit being fed to them by their favorite rap stars...I can't say anything kind about it. I know I've seen plenty of self-described 'wiggers' who embarrass the shit out of me, too, so it's definitely not exclusive to one community even if it's only targeted at one.

[Ephiral]

Your point is perfectly valid, I wasn't aware you were making it before. The only thing I can think of as far as today why it gets comparatively more bad press is that the influence it has on behavior and culture is stronger, more visibly present and pervasive.

Really? That's the only reason you can think of? Nothing else comes to mind, particularly in the historical context NubianPrincess has been explicitly providing?

[ningyou]

Oh boy, this thread.

As someone whose listened to metal his whole life, I'm not seeing the two as being remotely comparable. Every genre has it's handful of songs you wouldn't want to play with your family around, but there's few genres out there that do it like rap. It's just so consistent in how debauched it is, and that's not a bad thing. Doesn't bother me if someone wants to listen to things like 'Dollah on mah dick', I just don't think it's fair to say that rock is anywhere near the same level.

Doesn't metal have a big, big problem with racism (and misogyny, and homophobia) and honest-to-god neo-nazis?

also has anyone decrying rap in this thread actually listened to it i mean holy shit between Euron bemoaning OH IT'S ALL BITCHES AND CASH MONEY WHY CAN'T IT BE POSITIVE LIKE BIGGIE AND TUPAC AND NWA (lmao have you even listened to some of their lyrics) and the dude talking about how consistently debauched rap is

also also how gross and patronising is it for a bunch of white dudes to make weird generalisations about how ~all rap these days is drugs and money and big booty bitches~ and oh gosh, the black community should know better?

The question is it really racist, if they adopted at their own? I mean look at the N word. For the longest time it was hateful and ignorant word, but a lot of blacks adopted it, as a term of endearment.

Oh boy. Oh boy. Let me tell you about reclaiming slurs! Reclaiming slurs is a super contentious issue for p. much every community that has historically had slurs leveled at them in the first place but in part it's super simple!

Here's the simple part: are you black? No? Then it's still a racist slur that you absolutely should not use. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. "Lots of blacks adopted it as a term of endearment?" Doesn't matter.

[Valthazar]

Here's the simple part: are you black? No? Then it's still a racist slur that you absolutely should not use. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. "Lots of blacks adopted it as a term of endearment?" Doesn't matter.

I think part of the issue is that for better or for worse, most employers are white.  So if black youth are trying to get good jobs and develop their careers, they need to avoid language that caters to only their own ethnic group.  While using the N-word may be socially acceptable among other blacks, it is not professional or acceptable for a black person to be using the N-word in the company of other races (especially in a work setting).

All of us realize that we need to work together and adjust how we say things to function in a multicultural society.  This applies to people of all races.

Much of the hiring bias against minorities is due to certain behavioral traits that may be considered appropriate among their own subcultures, but not in wider society as a whole.  That's why many of us take issue with the use of the N-word in rap videos, which only perpetuates this negative behavior.

[Lux12]

Really? That's the only reason you can think of? Nothing else comes to mind, particularly in the historical context NubianPrincess has been explicitly providing?

Seconded. She's making some really important points here about the topic being discussed here. They make one reconsider some of their criticisms at the very least.

[ningyou]

Yes, by all means, double down on the patronizing I'M ONLY THINKING OF WHAT'S BEST FOR ~BLACK YOUTH~ shit. That is an absolutely amazing idea.

I think part of the issue is that for better or for worse, most employers are white.

Most employers, huh? Most employers everywhere? Most employers in every field in the US? What? This seems like a really dumb broad statement to make. 

So if black youth are trying to get good jobs and develop their careers, they need to avoid language that caters to only their own ethnic group.

Ohhhhhh goody. Also how is that word "language catering to their own ethnic group?" Do you honestly think that slurs (even reclaimed slurs!) are ~language catering to (whatever ethnic/etc. group they were used against)~? Do you think fa**ot is language catering to queer people? (and so on and so forth?)

And setting aside your whole SLURS = LANGUAGE CATERING TO THAT GROUP thing, it sounds like the underlying point here is 'oh golly y'know if black ppl want to get ahead in their career, maybe they should talk like white ppl,' which is also pretty gross! _{And wrapped up in a bunch of assumptions and stereotypes about how black people and white people talk.}

While using the N-word may be socially acceptable among other blacks, it is not professional or acceptable for a black person to be using the N-word in the company of other races (especially in a work setting).

All of us realize that we need to work together and adjust how we say things to function in a multicultural society.  This applies to people of all races.

Yeah see i don't think many people are going to be like WAIT I SHOULDN'T USE SLURS IN A PROFESSIONAL SETTING???? GOSHHHHH I HAD NO IDEA and the only comfort to me as i read your post is imagining Aziz Ansari saying "SHUT UP" in a loop. (Tom is like...the third-best character on Parks and Rec. Third-best!)

Also I see your words about working together in a multicultural society but everything else there seems to say, "These minority folk should really act more white if they want to get ahead, you know?"

Much of the hiring bias against minorities is due to certain behavioral traits that may be considered appropriate among their own subcultures, but not in wider society as a whole.  That's why many of us take issue with the use of the N-word in rap videos, which only perpetuates this negative behavior.

Wow. Wooooooooooooow.

The "hiring bias against minorities" isn't because gosh, you know, you want to like them but they just act too black/latino/queer/etc. with the exception of The Good Ones inappropriate behaviour, you freaking tosspot. It's because of, you know, white people being racist (and those racist attitudes being reinforced by other racist white people over time). Do you think centuries of systemic discrimination both overt and subtle came out of anything other than straight up racism?

_{Also this is a really bizarre reason to ~take issue with rap videos~ but okay.}

[Oniya]

Let's try to remain civil here.  Points on both sides can be made without resorting to language that attacks other members.

[ningyou]

....um. Wow. Okay. So "tosspot" is just as bad as (if not worse than) "it's black people's own fault that employers discriminate against them, because they just don't know how to *act* in public?" Got it. :S

[Valthazar]

ningyou, I was not trying to single you out or anything, I was just sharing my thoughts on this subject.

It is safe to say the vast majority of employers (management positions and above) are not black (or minorities, for that matter).  This means that minorities face bias - and a well-documented one at that.  As a result, over the long-term, the goal is to create a society where management positions are equally represented by a variety of races.  This is also why we encourage more women to enter engineering and science fields.

I never suggested that any minority should "talk like white people."  All I said is that certain behaviors and personality traits are frequently associated with those who are successful in their careers.  Look at people who have done well in life, whether it is international giants like Narendra Modi (the prime minister of India) and Alassane Ouattara (the president of Cote d'Ivoire) or simply minorities who have been successful in everyday life (working in management, accounting, teaching, medicine/nursing, etc).  All of these people are successful because they know the importance of operating in a multicultural society, and avoid behaviors that insulate themselves along ethnic lines.  When an African American uses the n-word when speaking with other African Americans, or dresses in a manner found in mainstream rap videos, they are essentially making a choice to not participate in the mainstream, multicultural society (a conglomeration of European, Asian, Hispanic, and Black cultures).  Rather, they are making a choice to associate themselves with the image portrayed in the media.

To be successful in any career, it is important to present oneself in a manner that is welcoming and pleasant to all people.  I'm not saying this is right, it's just the way of the world.  The likelihood that a minority working in accounting is going to get clients of any race, dressing in saggy jeans and using the n-word, is very slim at best.

The point a few of us were making earlier, and from what I gather what Euron was saying, is that many of these negative associations within the black community have been artificially introduced through the media.  It's a shame that these artificially introduced images have been embraced by much of the black community when it is predominantly white producers who are funding this.

[Alixana]

I never suggested that any minority should "talk like white people."  All I said is that certain behaviors and personality traits are frequently associated with those who are successful in their careers.  Look at people who have done well in life, whether it is international giants like Narendra Modi (the prime minister of India) and Alassane Ouattara (the president of Cote d'Ivoire) or simply minorities who have been successful in everyday life (working in management, accounting, teaching, medicine/nursing, etc).  All of these people are successful because they know the importance of operating in a multicultural society, and avoid behaviors that insulate themselves along ethnic lines.

I've been following this discussion for a while, and I wasn't really planning on butting in, but really? Your example of a person who knows how to operate in a multicultural society is Narendra Modi? Hindu Nationalist Narendra Modi? The man who has been dogged for over a decade by (well-founded) accusations that he bears partial responsibility for literally thousands of Muslims murdered in the 2002 Gujarat riots?

When an African American uses the n-word when speaking with other African Americans, or dresses in a manner found in mainstream rap videos, they are essentially making a choice to not participate in the mainstream, multicultural society (a conglomeration of European, Asian, Hispanic, and Black cultures).  Rather, they are making a choice to associate themselves with the image portrayed in the media.

First of all, it's hard to blame most minorities for failing to fully integrate with a society that has been discriminating against them to various degrees for hundreds of years, and continues to do so largely unabated in many regards. Talking about their making a "choice" to not participate in the mainstream sounds an awful lot like talk about how people make a "choice" to be poor or uneducated. Yes, you usually have some degree of choice, but it's really easy to lose sight of the full circumstances when you're looking down from a position of privilege. If you're born into a community where your prospects for success in "multicultural society" are minimal at best, it's pretty hard to turn your back on your friends and family in order to try to integrate yourself into what might as well be a foreign culture - and, on top of that, knowing that you'll be faced with near-constant racism even as you try and do so. And that's just one aspect, not even touching on issues like poverty and education.

Oh, and mainstream American society is very much not multicultural except perhaps at the fringes. The fact that people listen to hip-hop and do yoga and eat Mexican food does not make it any less dominated by white Americans.

To be successful in any career, it is important to present oneself in a manner that is welcoming and pleasant to all people.  I'm not saying this is right, it's just the way of the world.  The likelihood that a minority working in accounting is going to get clients of any race, dressing in saggy jeans and using the n-word, is very slim at best.

To be successful in any career, it is important to present oneself in a manner that is pleasant to people with money and power. In the United States, these people are usually white.

There are really two separate things going on here, though. The first is that there are certain standards that are very much racist, because they are imposed by a white majority/elite. For example, I know that there is a lot of criticism of the expectations around women's hair in the professional realm, because they're often based around what is convenient for white women, even if this can be much more difficult for black women based on the predominant characteristics of those groups' hair (and let's not even get into all the sexist double-standards). There are also major issues around things like discrimination against minority dialects (AAVE being the most obvious one), and, of course, flat-out racism. These and other similar issues can all be major barriers to minorities in the professional world.

But there is also a separate group of issues, which relate primarily to class rather than race, and I think you are conflating the two to some extent. You mentioned people wearing baggy jeans, but it's not as if only black people wear baggy jeans. Most people wear different clothes casually than they do at work, especially if they work in an office or similar environment. Most people speak differently at work and with their friends. If people don't have nice clothes to wear to work and have difficulty speaking and acting in a professional manner, it's not because they listen to too much rap. It's probably because they are poor and uneducated. And yes, there is a significant correlation between your race and your socioeconomic status, and no, it has nothing to do with music videos and everything to do with the fact that American society is very racist. Your elites and to a lesser extent the white majority as a whole has been holding down most minority groups (especially African Americans) for literally hundreds of years at this point. Is it really a surprise that they can't "integrate" fully?

[ningyou]

Okay, first off, (a), quit digging, and (b), there was an employment study done about discrimination based on "black-sounding" names vs. "white-sounding" names on resumes! No showing up for the interview with a clock around their necks, just names on a piece of paper.

Job applicants with white names needed to send about 10 resumes to get one callback; those with African-American names needed to send around 15 resumes to get one callback.

The 50 percent gap in callback rates is statistically very significant, Bertrand and Mullainathan note in Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment on Labor Market Discrimination (NBER Working Paper No. 9873). It indicates that a white name yields as many more callbacks as an additional eight years of experience. Race, the authors add, also affects the reward to having a better resume. Whites with higher quality resumes received 30 percent more callbacks than whites with lower quality resumes. But the positive impact of a better resume for those with Africa-American names was much smaller.

The experiment, conducted between July 2001 and January 2002, reveals several other aspects of discrimination. If the fictitious resume indicates that the applicant lives in a wealthier, or more educated, or more-white neighborhood, the callback rate rises. Interestingly, this effect does not differ by race. Indeed, if ghettos and bad neighborhoods are particularly stigmatizing for African-Americans, one might have expected them to be helped more than whites by having a "good" address.

Further, discrimination levels are statistically uniform across all the occupation and industry categories covered in the experiment. Federal contractors, sometimes regarded as more severely constrained by affirmative action laws, do not discriminate less. Neither do larger employers, or employers who explicitly state that they are "Equal Opportunity Employer" in their ads.

ningyou, I was not trying to single you out or anything, I was just sharing my thoughts on this subject.

It is safe to say the vast majority of employers (management positions and above) are not black (or minorities, for that matter).  This means that minorities face bias - and a well-documented one at that.  As a result, over the long-term, the goal is to create a society where management positions are equally represented by a variety of races.  This is also why we encourage more women to enter engineering and science fields.

"The vast majority" of employers are not minorities (white. you mean "they're white."), ergo minorities will face bias. You say this without putting any qualifiers or disclaimers on it.

So you're saying that white employers are biased against "minorities" by default. White employers are biased against all minorities by default. And you said in your previous post that "much of the hiring bias against minorities is due to behavioural traits that may be appropriate ~among their own subcultures~ but not in polite society."

Let's just put these two things together. "Most white employers are biased against minorities by default, but the minorities bring that bias on themselves through behaviour that is okay when they're among their own but not in a business setting/society in general/whatever." What are you saying here if not that minorities will face discrimination for acting too non-white (or non-male, or non-straight, or non-cis, or whatever)? Do you honestly believe that university-educated black people interviewing for accounting firm jobs or w/e show up in sagging jeans and talk like Lil' Jon?

Also it's mighty white of you to "encourage women to enter engineering and scientific fields," but...well. (Yes, I know it's tech-centric, but it talks about STEM fields generally too.)

I never suggested that any minority should "talk like white people."  All I said is that certain behaviors and personality traits are frequently associated with those who are successful in their careers.  Look at people who have done well in life, whether it is international giants like Narendra Modi (the prime minister of India) and Alassane Ouattara (the president of Cote d'Ivoire) or simply minorities who have been successful in everyday life (working in management, accounting, teaching, medicine/nursing, etc).  All of these people are successful because they know the importance of operating in a multicultural society, and avoid behaviors that insulate themselves along ethnic lines.  When an African American uses the n-word when speaking with other African Americans, or dresses in a manner found in mainstream rap videos, they are essentially making a choice to not participate in the mainstream, multicultural society (a conglomeration of European, Asian, Hispanic, and Black cultures).  Rather, they are making a choice to associate themselves with the image portrayed in the media.

To be successful in any career, it is important to present oneself in a manner that is welcoming and pleasant to all people.  I'm not saying this is right, it's just the way of the world.  The likelihood that a minority working in accounting is going to get clients of any race, dressing in saggy jeans and using the n-word, is very slim at best.

The point a few of us were making earlier, and from what I gather what Euron was saying, is that many of these negative associations within the black community have been artificially introduced through the media.  It's a shame that these artificially introduced images have been embraced by much of the black community when it is predominantly white producers who are funding this.

There's a lot here I'm not going to address because I don't have the stamina right now to look at every screwed up thing you say and explain politely but in exacting detail why it's screwed up and then patiently wait for you to tell me how oh, I'm sorry, you misunderstood, what we really meant was ____ and do the whole thing over again.

Not going to address the thing about how a black person dressing like a rapper at any point or using the n-word at all ever is apparently making a choice not to participate in society as a whole, and how acting like a gangsta rapper is...what does "insulating themselves along ethnic lines" even mean here? Are you saying that behaving like an extra from a "mainstream rap video" is one of these behaviours? Are you trying to say that acting and dressing like Snoop Manticore with the cameras on or w/e = African-American Culture?

Not going to address how apparently the key to success is not acting too ethnic in our multicultural society (and one of your examples for this is....really? Narendra Modi?) as opposed to a mix of hard work, luck, privilege (which includes being privileged enough to get an education and be allowed into/learn how to navigate rich, white business and/or political settings!), and timing, 'cos I feel like talking about intersectionality would fly right over your head.

Not going to address how bizarrely specific it is for you to talk about "a minority" working in accounting and presenting like a gangsta rap stereotype.

Not going to...you get the idea.

Also, rereading the OP, Euron is...Euron is not making a lot of sense. He lists a bunch of super profane gangsta rappers from the 90s and talks about how they were positive (?????) but now literally all rap is about stacks of money, doing all the drugs and getting all the big booty bitches, but it's really mostly white record moguls' doing (you are aware the radio isn't the only place people get their music, right?), but it's really black people who should know better than to listen to music that "promotes negative stereotypes." Like, don't get me wrong, there are issues with the rap scene, but...."black people should know better than to listen to music that promotes stereotypes!" (meanwhile, white people don't have to critically examine everything they listen to because of course)

So why is mainstream rap music so popular? Is it because it gives kids the fantasy of being rich and famous or do people just don't care, due to that sick beat doe?

"That sick beat doe," really? This is...not the way to not sound like a closet racist. (There's more to say here about lack of opportunity and systemic discrimination affecting aspirations, but this is long enough already. lol.)

Also also from the first page:

I think this is part of a broader issue.  If we are ever going to become a post-racial society, where we judge people on the content of their character, we all need to move past this basal logic where something is only "ours" if it is of "our" ethnicity.  Like consortium says, white people have largely moved past this, but the black community still holds onto this.  I can certainly empathize with the historical biases the black community has faced, but continuing to hold onto this "otherness" is only dividing us all.

lmao between this and the thing about THE UNCOOL STIGMA OF BEING A WHITE MALE i can't take your opinions seriously anymore (see also: http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/5-things-white-people-cultural-appropriation/ )

[ningyou]

Oh, and mainstream American society is very much not multicultural except perhaps at the fringes. The fact that people listen to hip-hop and do yoga and eat Mexican food does not make it any less dominated by white Americans.

This, so much.

[Alixana]

Also, rereading the OP, Euron is...Euron is not making a lot of sense. He lists a bunch of super profane gangsta rappers from the 90s and talks about how they were positive (?????) but now literally all rap is about stacks of money, doing all the drugs and getting all the big booty bitches, but it's really mostly white record moguls' doing (you are aware the radio isn't the only place people get their music, right?), but it's really black people who should know better than to listen to music that "promotes negative stereotypes." Like, don't get me wrong, there are issues with the rap scene, but...."black people should know better than to listen to music that promotes stereotypes!" (meanwhile, white people don't have to critically examine everything they listen to because of course)

This made me re-read the OP. Let's take another look.

Though what really bothers me is the idea the people behind the scenes who own the record companies, are white. They are the ones controlling the music and the advertising. Though they are mostly responsible, the blame should really fall on the fans.  After all they are the ones buying music, that promotes negative stereotypes. So why is mainstream rap music so popular? Is it because it gives kids the fantasy of being rich and famous or do people just don't care, due to that sick beat doe?

Wait, what was that? ZOOM AND ENHANCE!

Though they are mostly responsible, the blame should really fall on the fans.

And let's just clear up those pronouns...

Though [white people] are mostly responsible, the blame should really fall on [black people].

Yeah, I guess that about sums it up. And by "it" I mean US race relations over the last 300 years or so.

[TaintedAndDelish]

ningyou, I was not trying to single you out or anything, I was just sharing my thoughts on this subject.

It is safe to say the vast majority of employers (management positions and above) are not black (or minorities, for that matter).  This means that minorities face bias - and a well-documented one at that.  As a result, over the long-term, the goal is to create a society where management positions are equally represented by a variety of races.  This is also why we encourage more women to enter engineering and science fields.

I never suggested that any minority should "talk like white people."  All I said is that certain behaviors and personality traits are frequently associated with those who are successful in their careers.  Look at people who have done well in life, whether it is international giants like Narendra Modi (the prime minister of India) and Alassane Ouattara (the president of Cote d'Ivoire) or simply minorities who have been successful in everyday life (working in management, accounting, teaching, medicine/nursing, etc).  All of these people are successful because they know the importance of operating in a multicultural society, and avoid behaviors that insulate themselves along ethnic lines.  When an African American uses the n-word when speaking with other African Americans, or dresses in a manner found in mainstream rap videos, they are essentially making a choice to not participate in the mainstream, multicultural society (a conglomeration of European, Asian, Hispanic, and Black cultures).  Rather, they are making a choice to associate themselves with the image portrayed in the media.

To be successful in any career, it is important to present oneself in a manner that is welcoming and pleasant to all people.  I'm not saying this is right, it's just the way of the world.  The likelihood that a minority working in accounting is going to get clients of any race, dressing in saggy jeans and using the n-word, is very slim at best.

The point a few of us were making earlier, and from what I gather what Euron was saying, is that many of these negative associations within the black community have been artificially introduced through the media.  It's a shame that these artificially introduced images have been embraced by much of the black community when it is predominantly white producers who are funding this.

Valthazar really nailed it here.

One of the lessons I've learned over the years, is that bonding with your employers does a lot more for your career than being the brightest or best at doing what you do. Those who fail to bond with those in power end up getting less in return.

*If this paragraph does not make sense to you, read it again and again.*

Those who fail to bond include people who behave in a way that's conducive to their work environment, but who fail to win the friendship and/or support of their employers.

This is not about the color of your skin or country of origin, this is about fitting in, bonding, and becoming someone whom your employer WANTS to hold on to, and WANTS to reward. Like it or not, this is one of the keys to success.

Those who alienate themselves by failing to bond miss out.

If you work for someone who wears their pants low, grabs their dick during conversation, and raps in your face, then doing the same may help you to fit in. If you try to pull that crap in corporate America, they will eventually get rid of you for something dumb - like browsing the Internet on company time, or leaving the workplace with a company owned pen or paper clip.

[Valthazar]

I apologize that I couldn't address each of your points.  I realize we share a difference in perspective.

lmao between this and the thing about THE UNCOOL STIGMA OF BEING A WHITE MALE i can't take your opinions seriously anymore (see also: http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/5-things-white-people-cultural-appropriation/ )

I would appreciate not being assumed to be a white male.  I was born in India and lived for several years in Europe before coming to the US around age 10.  I have experienced racism and discrimination first hand.  Since the topic of "black sounding" versus "white sounding" names was raised, perhaps I'll share a personal example.  I work in the field of education, which is drastically white dominated.  I have an "Indian sounding" name, which perhaps would be an advantage if I were working in the field of medicine or engineering ( :-) ), but sadly, it often works against me in my field.  I have been asked about my writing skills (likely due to my name), and I have been mistaken for an "international student" despite being an American citizen speaking fluent English with a regular American accent.  Heck, most places where I interviewed at didn't even have a single minority on their staff.

Biases do exist, I do not deny that at all.  But I only have one life, and I can choose to either dwell on "white privilege" or I can choose to be the best version of myself possible.  An equally qualified white guy may be able to make a great first impression to an employer despite wearing jeans and a polo shirt.  I probably wouldn't be able to pull that off due to bias.  I can either wallow in that prejudice, or I can accept that I face bias, and choose to dress and act very professionally.  In other words, the bias against me is not my fault, but I still retain a degree of control that can still put me on equal footing with others.

Do you honestly believe that university-educated black people interviewing for accounting firm jobs or w/e show up in sagging jeans and talk like Lil' Jon?

I work at a college, and you would be surprised how many students (regardless of race) behave during mock interviews.  As I described above, a black student (or any minority for that matter) needs to present himself far more professionally than a white candidate in order to have the same opportunities.  Many of our black students are from underprivileged backgrounds who are using student loans and federal grants to fund their entire education (which makes it all the more important for them to get jobs).  Many of them do come in a dress shirt and blazer, but frequently don't tighten their ties properly, or sag their pants at their hips, causing their shirt to stick out at the belt.  I can only cringe when they start the interview with, "What's up, bro?" or "What's up, man?"  I had one black student come in wearing a do-rag.  These are great kids, but they haven't received the right influences that will help them to become successful in professional life (which is their true goal).

But there is also a separate group of issues, which relate primarily to class rather than race, and I think you are conflating the two to some extent. You mentioned people wearing baggy jeans, but it's not as if only black people wear baggy jeans. Most people wear different clothes casually than they do at work, especially if they work in an office or similar environment. Most people speak differently at work and with their friends. If people don't have nice clothes to wear to work and have difficulty speaking and acting in a professional manner, it's not because they listen to too much rap. It's probably because they are poor and uneducated.

You're absolutely right, but you are speaking on a broader level, critiquing the role of race in America, and how it can be improved for the future.  I am speaking about minorities that live in America right now.  If I am speaking to an 18 or 19 year old black student, what can I do to help him or her have the successful career that he/she desires?  A major part of that is in shedding the negative imagery found in rap videos - because things are much harder to achieve as a minority.  That doesn't mean it's impossible, just requires more work.

[Euron Greyjoy]

Also, rereading the OP, Euron is...Euron is not making a lot of sense. He lists a bunch of super profane gangsta rappers from the 90s and talks about how they were positive (?????) but now literally all rap is about stacks of money, doing all the drugs and getting all the big booty bitches, but it's really mostly white record moguls' doing (you are aware the radio isn't the only place people get their music, right?), but it's really black people who should know better than to listen to music that "promotes negative stereotypes." Like, don't get me wrong, there are issues with the rap scene, but...."black people should know better than to listen to music that promotes stereotypes!" (meanwhile, white people don't have to critically examine everything they listen to because of course)

"That sick beat doe," really? This is...not the way to not sound like a closet racist. (There's more to say here about lack of opportunity and systemic discrimination affecting aspirations, but this is long enough already. lol.)

Also also from the first page:

lmao between this and the thing about THE UNCOOL STIGMA OF BEING A WHITE MALE i can't take your opinions seriously anymore (see also: http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/5-things-white-people-cultural-appropriation/ )

I'm saying mainstream rap is dominated, by the likes of 2 Chainz and Lil Wayne, that promote negative stereotypes. There are probably underground rapers, who go back to the days of old, rapping about black unity and positivity, like Public Enemy or A Tribe Called Quest. However, like I said earlier they're not heard of,  because white record label owners, don't think it will sell or just prefer keeping the status quo.

How is "That sick beat doe" racist?

So are you denying, that the media isn't portraying white men to be uncool and imbeciles?

I just think its funny that I was trying to point out of the racism in mainstream rap, only to be called a closeted racist.

This made me re-read the OP. Let's take another look.

Wait, what was that? ZOOM AND ENHANCE!

And let's just clear up those pronouns...

Yeah, I guess that about sums it up. And by "it" I mean US race relations over the last 300 years or so.

I was referring to the blame lies on the fans and rappers, who buy into black negativity.


Just a heads up everyone, I'm thinking of closing this thread in order to make the sequel thread, on how in America though forced segregation is over, we now choose to segregate ourselves.

[Oniya]

How is "That sick beat doe" racist?

It could be perceived as such (or at least as a slur), due to the fact that you were deliberately imitating a style of speech associated with a group with the intent of portraying something as negative.

[Euron Greyjoy]

It could be perceived as such (or at least as a slur), due to the fact that you were deliberately imitating a style of speech associated with a group with the intent of portraying something as negative.

Thanks for providing me your insight, Oniya. However, I use doe daily in my online vocabulary, and wasn't using it as a slur.

[Kythia]

Is it just me who did an advanced search just then?  I hope not.

[consortium11]

Is it just me who did an advanced search just then?  I hope not.

I'm still reeling from my failure of pop culture knowledge... I assumed "doe" was just a typo (most likely "dope" with the p dropped) rather than a real word in and of itself.

[Kythia]

I'm still reeling from my failure of pop culture knowledge... I assumed "doe" was just a typo (most likely "dope" with the p dropped) rather than a real word in and of itself.

You need to get down with the kids.  Be a bit more "hip" as us kids say. 

[Euron Greyjoy]

Doe = though

At least thats how my bro and I use it.

[Oniya]

See, personally, I'd taken the whole 'it's all about the beat' attitude as being primarily that of a carefree, perhaps even naive adolescent.  Calling something good 'sick' also seems to place the speaker on the younger and more urban side of things (I can't help but think of the song 'Bad').  This does not inherently define the speaker's race, although it does tend to sound like a certain socioeconomic class - sort of the same way that folks in the UK see certain phrasing as typically 'chav'.  Toss that into a discussion where the previously mentioned attitude is being criticized, and it can be misinterpreted quite easily.

I am also reminded of a verse from a group called 'Five Men Acoustical Band':

And the sign said 'Long haired, freaky people'
Need not apply.'
So I tucked my hair up under my hat
And I went in to ask him why.
He said 'You look like a fine, upstandin' young man,
I think you'll do.'
So I took off my hat and said 'Imagine that.
Huh. Me, workin' for you?'

[Euron Greyjoy]

Personally I'm a lyric man, but a lot of modern mainstream rap fans, focus on the beat instead. *Shrugs* It explains why the lyrics are so bad, when rappers can just rely, on having "dat sick beat doe". However, you got to remember the audience of most rap fans, they are mostly people who go to the club or party. Nothing starts a party like Favor Flav, rapping about how 911 takes their sweet time arriving in a predominately black area, when called.

[ningyou]

Ohhhhhhhh boy. Forget about this thread for a day, come back to a ~cornucopia~ of Bad Posts.

Valthazar really nailed it here.

One of the lessons I've learned over the years, is that bonding with your employers does a lot more for your career than being the brightest or best at doing what you do. Those who fail to bond with those in power end up getting less in return.

*If this paragraph does not make sense to you, read it again and again.*

Those who fail to bond include people who behave in a way that's conducive to their work environment, but who fail to win the friendship and/or support of their employers.

This is not about the color of your skin or country of origin, this is about fitting in, bonding, and becoming someone whom your employer WANTS to hold on to, and WANTS to reward. Like it or not, this is one of the keys to success.

Those who alienate themselves by failing to bond miss out.

If you work for someone who wears their pants low, grabs their dick during conversation, and raps in your face, then doing the same may help you to fit in. If you try to pull that crap in corporate America, they will eventually get rid of you for something dumb - like browsing the Internet on company time, or leaving the workplace with a company owned pen or paper clip.

Short answer

More constructive answer: holy shit, have you met any black people? Any at all? Have you met any black person in corporate america who sags their pants, grabs their crotch, and raps in people's faces? Have you even read about this happening outside of Free Republic fever dreams? Because I have this funny feeling that uh yeah no.

Like...yes, even if the awkward self-help book phrasing is kind of obnoxious, of course "bonding with your employers does a lot more for your career than being the brightest or best." (Though putting 100% of the blame for "failing to bond" on employees rather than employers - who are human beings with likes and dislikes and foibles and prejudices! - is kinda...victim-blamey isn't quite the word, but it's close enough!) But when you start talking about people failing to bond with their employer specifically because they're cosplaying as Lil' Jon in the office, you just sound kinda weird and dumb and racist.

Also corporate America isn't a monolith, but I sooooort of get this feeling like all your knowledge of it comes from teevee or Kindle smut, so yeah. And white people get in trouble or get fired for browsing the internet too! :v and lmao at the IF one of them coloured folks SOMEONE SAGS THEIR PANTS AND SWINGS THEIR JUNK AND RAPS IN CORPORATE AMERICA THEY'LL GET THEM SOMEHOW THEY MIGHT FIRE THEM FOR LEAVING THE BUILDING WITH A PAPERCLIP thing. Like, setting aside the small matter of of 'how could they tell with a generic pen or a freaking paperclip,' have you heard of at-will employment? In like half the US employers can just fire people for any reason (thanks, google!) unless the employment contract says they can only be fired for cause, and if an employer actually said they fired a can-only-be-fired-for-cause minority employee for leaving with a paperclip or pen it would be such a stupidly obvious pretext that there's no way they wouldn't get sued for discrimination.

Also oh my *god* saying "If this paragraph does not make sense to you, read it again and again" with asterisks and in bold font is incredibly obnoxious and condescending (and i'm sorry, but it doesn't make your post any less weird and dumb and wrong).

_{Also I DON'T MEAN TO JUDGE OR ANYTHING but I've noticed both in this thread and the Sarkeesian thread that you can tell who the garbage posters are going to be by looking at avatars, l o l}

[ningyou]

I would appreciate not being assumed to be a white male.  I was born in India and lived for several years in Europe before coming to the US around age 10.  I have experienced racism and discrimination first hand.  Since the topic of "black sounding" versus "white sounding" names was raised, perhaps I'll share a personal example.  I work in the field of education, which is drastically white dominated.  I have an "Indian sounding" name, which perhaps would be an advantage if I were working in the field of medicine or engineering ( :-) ), but sadly, it often works against me in my field.  I have been asked about my writing skills (likely due to my name), and I have been mistaken for an "international student" despite being an American citizen speaking fluent English with a regular American accent.  Heck, most places where I interviewed at didn't even have a single minority on their staff.

Biases do exist, I do not deny that at all.  But I only have one life, and I can choose to either dwell on "white privilege" or I can choose to be the best version of myself possible.  An equally qualified white guy may be able to make a great first impression to an employer despite wearing jeans and a polo shirt.  I probably wouldn't be able to pull that off due to bias.  I can either wallow in that prejudice, or I can accept that I face bias, and choose to dress and act very professionally.  In other words, the bias against me is not my fault, but I still retain a degree of control that can still put me on equal footing with others.

Ooookay. First off, I didn't "assume you to be a white male." I think that it is hilarious and asinine when men talk about how BEING A WHITE MALE JUST ISN'T COOL ANYMORE BECAUSE commercials/comedy characters/FEMINISM!!!1!/etc., and I said 'I cannot take your opinions seriously because you said this thing about white men before!' But i did not say YO LOOK AT THIS WHITE BOY UGH or anything.

That said, a nonwhite person genuinely bemoaning how BEING A WHITE MALE IS JUST NOT COOL ANYMORE and talking about how you can either dwell on white privilege or be the best you can be because really guise you have some control over the effects of white privilege seems like stockholm syndrome (and not the fun kind).

I work at a college, and you would be surprised how many students (regardless of race) behave during mock interviews.  As I described above, a black student (or any minority for that matter) needs to present himself far more professionally than a white candidate in order to have the same opportunities.  Many of our black students are from underprivileged backgrounds who are using student loans and federal grants to fund their entire education (which makes it all the more important for them to get jobs).  Many of them do come in a dress shirt and blazer, but frequently don't tighten their ties properly, or sag their pants at their hips, causing their shirt to stick out at the belt.  I can only cringe when they start the interview with, "What's up, bro?" or "What's up, man?"  I had one black student come in wearing a do-rag.

...So you've formed your opinion based on some black university students (not grown-ass adults, university students, and I assume all guys! _{please don't tell me your opinions on black women i know they're just going to be worse and i'm going to get depressed}) showing up for mock interviews in business dress but wearing their slacks at their hips (not actually sagging, just wearing them with a belt at their hips)? And because some of them greet you informally (again, in a *mock* interview), and because one student wore a do-rag (which is dumb, but making broad generalisations about ~black youth~ based on this is dumber)? 

These are great kids, but they haven't received the right influences that will help them to become successful in professional life (which is their true goal).

oh my god shut up you patronising idiot

also "great kids" lmao how old even are you

I'm saying mainstream rap is dominated, by the likes of 2 Chainz and Lil Wayne, that promote negative stereotypes. There are probably underground rapers, who go back to the days of old, rapping about black unity and positivity, like Public Enemy or A Tribe Called Quest. However, like I said earlier they're not heard of,  because white record label owners, don't think it will sell or just prefer keeping the status quo.

I think that it's more that you're so ignorant of rap outside of like...a quarter of the top 40? Maybe? that you haven't heard of them, and you're making assumptions based on super limited knowledge and stereotypes.

How is "That sick beat doe" racist?

You're asking if black people are too ignorant to care that they're embracing stereotypes and you end it by mimicking AAVE. Think about it.

So are you denying, that the media isn't portraying white men to be uncool and imbeciles?

I think it's the kind of inane BS men tend to focus on as proof of MISANDRY!!!1!1!!. Like, sure, some commercials or sitcoms portray some white men as ~lovable buffoons~, but who gives a shit when -- just looking at recent news -- when people talking about actual RL news in ~the media~ suggest that maybe Michael Brown deserved to die for possibly stealing some swisher sweets (even if the cop who murdered him didn't actually know this at the time), or that maybe Renisha Mcbride deserved to die for having car trouble and asking for help in the wrong (i.e. white) neighbourhood? And as for shows and things, lots of those portray women as nags and whores who bring awful things on themselves, black folk as illiterates and ~thugs~, hispanics as The Help, trans women as perverts/deceivers/rapists....I could go on, but the point is that i'm not denying that a very small part of the media portrays white men as ~imbeciles~. The point is that it is a drop in the bucket compared to how everyone else is represented in the media.

(Also I can't help thinking of the Steubenville rape coverage and the CNN reporter talking about how getting convicted of raping a young girl DERAILED TWO BOYS' PROMISING FUTURES OH GOSH IT'S SO AWFUL THOSE BOYS WATCHED THEIR LIVES FALL APART, but nope, i guess the media is just a hotbed of misandry.)

I just think its funny that I was trying to point out of the racism in mainstream rap, only to be called a closeted racist.

Just stop, dude.

Just a heads up everyone, I'm thinking of closing this thread in order to make the sequel thread, on how in America though forced segregation is over, we now choose to segregate ourselves.

Please don't make the sequel. This is a Bad Thread with a lot of Bad Posters and unthinking, reflexive racism. Let it die.

Also if you think de facto segregation is over or that segregated neighbourhoods are the product of ~choosing to segregate ourselves~ rather than a whole bunch of things including but not limited to white folk ~keeping the coloureds out~ by any means necessary for decades you've got another thing coming.

[Valthazar]

ningyou, we simply are discussing different perspectives, no need to call TaintedandDelish dumb or me an idiot.  The main reason I felt you assumed me to be white was because of this quote:

Also it's mighty white of you to "encourage women to enter engineering and scientific fields," but...well.

I think the primary difference between what we are saying is that you are speaking about blacks currently working in corporate America, while I am speaking about the enormous population of black Americans who are unable to work in corporate America (either due to bias, lack of education, lack of experience in multicultural society among whites, emulation of imagery shown in rap videos, etc.). 

It is important to realize that if anyone (black, white, or any race) is currently holding a job, then they have been deemed qualified for the position.  What is concerning is the much greater amounts of black youth who will be unable to even compete for these jobs due to the variety of factors discussed earlier.

[TaintedAndDelish]

Ohhhhhhhh boy. Forget about this thread for a day, come back to a ~cornucopia~ of Bad Posts.

Short answer

More constructive answer: holy shit, have you met any black people? Any at all? Have you met any black person in corporate america who sags their pants, grabs their crotch, and raps in people's faces? Have you even read about this happening outside of Free Republic fever dreams? Because I have this funny feeling that uh yeah no.

I know plenty of black people. As for folks who behave in a way that puts them at odds with their work environment, you see less of that in the work place and even less in higher level jobs. This is not about race, this is about fitting in. This applies not only to rapping out loud and grabbing your dick, but also dressing like an emo or metalhead, or wearing your sexual preferences or controversial religious beliefs on your sleeve. Those who fail to fit the part don't get very far.

Though putting 100% of the blame for "failing to bond" on employees rather than employers - who are human beings with likes and dislikes and foibles and prejudices! - is kinda...victim-blamey isn't quite the word, but it's close enough!)

I think you missed the point here. Yes, you can get a job and sustain it, and yes, at times people do get laid off. I'm saying that when you get along with those in power, you benefit from that personal alliance. If you fail to do this, you don't get the extra benefit. You are just another number. I'm not sure where this victim angle comes into play.

But when you start talking about people failing to bond with their employer specifically because they're cosplaying as Lil' Jon in the office, you just sound kinda weird and dumb and racist.

As stated before, if you act in a way that is in opposition to your environment and wittingly or unwittingly make yourself to be an outcast, you will end up getting treated as such. Blaming everyone else and declaring yourself a victim might make you feel better about it, but it does not address the problem.

Also corporate America isn't a monolith, but I sooooort of get this feeling like all your knowledge of it comes from teevee or Kindle smut, so yeah. And white people get in trouble or get fired for browsing the internet too!

No, my knowledge comes from over 20 years of personal experience. I started out with a half-assed alternative high school education having been kicked out of mainstream high school, and worked my way to where I am today. I couldn't afford college. I borrowed and purchased books and educated myself over time after pulling my head out of my ass and learning that acting like an outcast was working against me.

:v and lmao at the IF one of them coloured folks SOMEONE SAGS THEIR PANTS AND SWINGS THEIR JUNK AND RAPS IN CORPORATE AMERICA THEY'LL GET THEM SOMEHOW THEY MIGHT FIRE THEM FOR LEAVING THE BUILDING WITH A PAPERCLIP thing. Like, setting aside the small matter of of 'how could they tell with a generic pen or a freaking paperclip,' have you heard of at-will employment?

I've seen people get canned for small offences, and I've seen others get away with breaking lots of rules.  What I have not seen is people who fit in and who are well bonded with their employers getting fired or laid off over stupid stuff. 

In like half the US employers can just fire people for any reason (thanks, google!) unless the employment contract says they can only be fired for cause, and if an employer actually said they fired a can-only-be-fired-for-cause minority employee for leaving with a paperclip or pen it would be such a stupidly obvious pretext that there's no way they wouldn't get sued for discrimination.

This isn't about the technical reason for dismissal, it's more about benefiting from personal alliances. The bit about the paper clip was clearly an exaggeration.

Also oh my *god* saying "If this paragraph does not make sense to you, read it again and again" with asterisks and in bold font is incredibly obnoxious and condescending (and i'm sorry, but it doesn't make your post any less weird and dumb and wrong).

Maybe you should read that paragraph again.

_{Also I DON'T MEAN TO JUDGE OR ANYTHING but I've noticed both in this thread and the Sarkeesian thread that you can tell who the garbage posters are going to be by looking at avatars, l o l}

Would you agree with this statement if we replaced "posters" with "employees" and "avatar" with "personal image" ?

Let's translate that and see it if still holds true:

I DON'T MEAN TO JUDGE OR ANYTHING but I've noticed ... that you can tell who the garbage employees are going to be by looking at their personal image, l o l

[consortium11]

Ooookay. First off, I didn't "assume you to be a white male." I think that it is hilarious and asinine when men talk about how BEING A WHITE MALE JUST ISN'T COOL ANYMORE BECAUSE commercials/comedy characters/FEMINISM!!!1!/etc., and I said 'I cannot take your opinions seriously because you said this thing about white men before!' But i did not say YO LOOK AT THIS WHITE BOY UGH or anything.

No, but you did say (as Valthazar has already mentioned):

Also it's mighty white of you...

Now, that sat fairly awkwardly for me when looked at in conjunction with other things you've said...

_{And wrapped up in a bunch of assumptions and stereotypes about how black people and white people talk.}

So it's a case of either assuming Valthazar (who has always been open about his background and history) is white or making a bunch of assumptions about how white people talk, think and act and saying Valthazar is following them.

I actually hope you're not being truthful above and you did assume Valthazar is white. Because the other option is essentially accusing him of "acting white"... which is basically a variation of the choc-ice ("black on the outside, white on the inside") or banana ("yellow on the outside, white on the inside"... although generally used in a less pejorative sense) type slurs when someone from a minority is accused of "betraying" either their own or other minorities by being too "white" in their manner.

Or it could be neither of the two and actually the precise nature of your point got lost in a sea of passive-aggressive snark that might be welcomed or appreciated in other places but is somewhat of an awkward fit in a sub-forum that tends to concentrate on fairly precise language and (tone argument points notwithstanding) has a "Be polite, be civil, be respectful" rule.

[Blythe]

Time for a break.

The thread will be locked for now.