Brexit

[Sara Nilsson]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46446694

The full Brexit legal advice will be published, due to a 18 vote lead on those against it, 311 votes to 293.

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1070001166464049152

Is the moment the vote was announced live with the reactions of those in the House of Commons.

Is there a .. "what this means for dummies" somewhere? Ill admit I don't follow what it all means

[Tolvo]

It will probably be very incriminating since most advice from actual experts has been that Brexit is a terrible idea and will severely damage the economy. Making it available to the public what their advice was that they received will probably make May look really poor when already support for Brexit is down and people are considering throwing her out. Including finding her government in contempt of UK Parliament.

And this.

https://www.businessinsider.com/mps-vote-for-dominic-grieve-brexit-amendment-2018-12

Meaning they can get rid of her, and if they really wanted stop Brexit from happening.

[Mechelle]

I don't think the vote makes much difference, actually. It does highlight the strange arrogance of this government, who just walk into avoidable defeats, but we knew about that anyway. We also know that Brexit is bad for the country economically, regardless of any legal advice; the people who support it do so on grounds of sovereignty, or so they say  (the fact that Parliament can vote against a  government for treating them with contempt, for the first time ever, does show that Parliament is sovereign, though, surely). If Mrs May loses the withdrawal bill by only 18 votes next week, she will be happy, oddly, showing that while this is another humiliation, things go on as before.

It was intriguing to see how some of May's loyal allies and personal friends did vote against her, while some of the older hard left anti-Europeans of the Labour party were canvassed by the right wing Jacob Rees-Mogg to do likewise. It's a mess, as usual, but Parliament does get more control.

Meanwhile, former leader Nigel Farage has resigned from UKIP following its swing towards Tommy Robinson and the extreme right, surely marking its end as a serious party and a European jurist has given his opinion that the UK can unilaterally withdraw our request to leave, and don't need the agreement of the other members of the EU to do this.

As I say, it's all a mess, and who knows what will happen.

[Tolvo]

Yeah it's basically Brexit might not happen, if we are lucky. But also it might happen. It all is really such a poor idea and people have made so many poor choices. It is amazing that these people can even pass anything at all.

[Eye of Horus]

It would also appear that, despite May’s continued refusal to release the unredacted legal advice, someone within the Cabinet has leaked it on their own initiative:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1069004442316546049?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1069004442316546049&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fleftfootforward.org%2F2018%2F12%2Fbrexit-legal-advice-the-government-is-treading-on-thin-ice-by-defying-parliament%2F

[gaggedLouise]

One of the chief attorneys of the EU Court has advised that Britain would have the option of simply turning full back on Article 50, and stop Brexit, if there is no viable deal emerging from the process in parliament. Not a full court decision, but in the great majority of cases the court will follow this kind of advisory opinion.

Of course, the political cost for some people in UK politics would be huge - but better that than havoc all over the country. :).

[Mechelle]

I have been a bit slow to post this, but, a day or two ago, Conservative Brexiter Priti Patel said that Britain  should use the threat of food shortages in Ireland to obtain a better Brexit. Even though some of the stories of the Great Famine of the 1840's are more complex than legend would have us believe, I am open-mouthed at the lack of historical awareness and the political tin ear required to make a statement like this.
I think she has tried to back pedal since, but she said what she said.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-ireland-food-shortages-threat-risk-priti-patel-negotiate-better-deal-a8672326.html

[Tolvo]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/08/momentum-anti-fascists-to-protest-against-far-right-brexit-rally-in-london

Looks like the big Brexit rally by Neo Nazis in London is gonna have tons of Counter Protesters from Antifa in Labor, supported by the Shadow Chancellor and Labor.

[Mechelle]

I think the heading is a bit misleading and simplifies things.
The far right groups have attempted to hijack Brexit for their own purposes, while the protesters are welcoming people to oppose them whether they voted for or against Brexit. Quite a few Labour supporters did vote for Brexit (although, contary to the popular mythology, I live in a safe Labour seat in the north which voted to remain), while Labour has its own internal problems with anti-semitism.

[Mechelle]

I have seen (from a left wing source, so do account for any bias) that there were 3000 right wing marchers compared to 15,000 anti-fascist protesters. The march was organised by the rump of UKIP, most of whose respectable or relatively centrist members have left in protest following their recruitment of former (?) fascist "Tommy Robinson" as an adviser, but must be seen as a humilatingly poor turnout.

It didn't take long, though, to accidentally run into another left wing source accusing Israel of funding Robinson. British politics today...

[Tolvo]

He's not really formerly a fascist he's still pretty open about it. It's why he is banned from certain countries.

Why would Israel try to fund Tommy or his people? That doesn't sound like it would make any sense. I have seen some reason to believe there is some Russian influence(Not yet from Russian government but Russian anti-LGBTQIA+ activists). But even those are not definite and are more a "Well they want the same thing, and were in the same place at the same time" kind of thing. And Russia and Israel have incredibly different ways of doing influence and their goals are different. Like Israel while it has fascist-leaning leaders it has those who oppose them, they're butting heads with Russia due to Syria. Israel usually only supports fascists if they are Anti-Palestinian specifically but not anything else. And Russia is more the kind to fund those sorts of things while Israel usually has pretty open lobbying groups in governments. If it's more George Soros conspiracies, and since George Soros is Jewish it must be the secret Jewish ruling class of Israel or some such other poppycock, which I'd believe since Trump did retweet such things about it, that's just dumb as hell conspiracy theory stuff.

[Mechelle]

Yes, two points are that a lot of centrists fell over themselves to praise Robinson when he disavowed racism, although he has hardly been consistent in that, while some on the left will blame Israel whenever possible for anti-semitic reasons. It doesn't make sense, apart from the usual anti-semitic themes of Jewish puppetmasters bringing down the left.

[Tolvo]

It is always a damn shame when I see people who I think should be better than that peddling it. They seem fine, care about a lot of causes, I'm quite fine with the boycott and things(Though I do see certain problems like it being actually effective, and lots of other countries like the USA do similar things to Israel and aren't boycotted), but then when it gets into "All Jewish people are loyal to and influenced by Israel's government and must apologize for it" it's like, "Really? You seemed mostly fine up until you said that." It's why I try to be specific when I talk about problems I have with the Israeli government and mention usually mitigating things and common conspiracy theories that are false and that even lots of citizens of Israel disagree with their government.

[Tolvo]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46481643

The BBC just reported that the UK can cancel Brexit, essentially, without the need for approval from the other members of the EU, and retain membership. According a decision made in an EU court.

[gaggedLouise]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46481643

The BBC just reported that the UK can cancel Brexit, essentially, without the need for approval from the other members of the EU, and retain membership. According a decision made in an EU court.

So the way back from the precipice is open - but if it is finally taken a LOT of politicians will have some very awkward questions dropped in their laps. Also, there would be a monumental debate about who's let down whom, across several parties.

[Mechelle]

It was yet another chaotic day in Parliament today as Mrs May, despite insisting at the start of the day that tomorrow's vote on the withdrawal agreement would go ahead,  had a sudden change of heart mid-morning, fearing a particularly heavy defeat. The Speaker of the House of Commons had indicated that the vote might still go ahead unless there was a vote to say that there should not be a vote (!) but, as far as I can tell, there won't be either vote, for now, anyway. Meanwhile, the Leader of the Opposition has chosen not to lead a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, probably on the basis that it would make the Conservatives band together out of party loyalty, so both big parties seem to be operating for narrow, short term partisan advantage, not that that is any surprise.

At least, yesterday's right wing march seemed to go peacefully, although there was an unpleasant image when one of the UKIP\fascist marchers brought along a noise as he thought Theresa May was guilty of treason.

[Tolvo]

https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1072234234901860353

Lloyd Russell-Moyle an MP also got expelled for taking the Mace during Parliament.

[Sara Nilsson]

https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1072234234901860353

Lloyd Russell-Moyle an MP also got expelled for taking the Mace during Parliament.

explanation for us idiots? I take it is a symbolic protest of some form?

[Mechelle]

https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1072234234901860353

Lloyd Russell-Moyle an MP also got expelled for taking the Mace during Parliament.

Lloyd Russell-Moyle has also said that if he us sent to the Tower for contempt of Parliament, Mrs May should be in the cell next to his.
Incidentally, I first of him just a few days ago when he became the first MP to speak openly about being HIV positive.

[Tolvo]

explanation for us idiots? I take it is a symbolic protest of some form?

It basically means that he feels Parliament is a sham and does not represent the people. It's an important symbol of it.

Which I do agree with that sentiment, about a lot of elections and officials. Not sure though if it was a publicity stunt or is his genuine view since I don't know him too well.

[Mechelle]

He has said it was a spur of the moment protest. He wasn't widely known (although he is becoming so now!) but received a lot of praise for his speech about HIV.

[Sara Nilsson]

It basically means that he feels Parliament is a sham and does not represent the people. It's an important symbol of it.

gotcha. That is what I figured.

[Oniya]

I was not expecting that.  I was thinking a small representation of a mace, like - gavel-sized.  Symbolic.  Not something that looked capable of cracking a few skulls (despite the ornamentation).

[Tolvo]

Ironically it probably couldn't do that well. It's too big to be a mace for war. It is a symbolic one. There are symbolic versions of a lot of weapons, which people often confuse for being meant for war. Like the double headed axe was typically a symbol thing not meant for combat. Though I'm also not sure what material it is made of either. *Cracks knuckles*

Now let me detail the entire history of maces in warfare, you see it started with-

[Oniya]

Ironically it probably couldn't do that well. It's too big to be a mace for war. It is a symbolic one. There are symbolic versions of a lot of weapons, which people often confuse for being meant for war. Like the double headed axe was typically a symbol thing not meant for combat. Though I'm also not sure what material it is made of either. *Cracks knuckles*

Now let me detail the entire history of maces in warfare, you see it started with-

It's definitely unwieldy, but once you get a little momentum on that sucker...  F=ma could translate into 'Fuck!  Me arse!'  ;D