Israel / Hamas Conflict in the West Bank

[inkybus]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0gkg5fh
The firest query in the interview was if the spokesperson of Hamas agrees that 260 people were massacred at a music festival on saturday morning.

The answer was "We accept that these people are living in [excess] and two million and a half palestinians [suffer in the meantime]."
*paraphrased the quotes in the brackets

I am speechless.

[elone]

Key developments:

COGAT head Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian issues genocidal threat to Palestinians: “Human animals must be treated as such. There will be no electricity and no water [in Gaza], there will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”

National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir announces plans to arm Jewish “civilian security teams” in the West Bank, Jerusalem, and Palestinian areas in ‘48

Israel bombs Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt for second time, after army spokesperson tells Gazans to flee to Egypt

Israeli army spokesperson says, “our focus is on (creating) damage, not on precision” in Gaza attack

Gaza Health Ministry: 13 Palestinian families have been massacred since Saturday; most “still under the rubble”

UN: At least 200,000 Gazans have been internally displaced due to Israeli airstrikes

Hamas and Islamic Jihad claim to be holding 130 Israeli captives in Gaza

124 Israeli soldiers, 41 police officers among dead in Israel

Israel claims to have killed 1,500 Palestinian fighters inside Israeli territory

Gaza hospitals overwhelmed; WHO calls for humanitarian corridor into Gaza to deliver medical aid

Israel’s bombardment of the Gaza Strip entered its fourth day on Tuesday, October 10. Since Hamas fighters in Gaza launched their multi-prong offensive on Saturday, thousands have been killed.

The death toll inside Gaza surpassed 770, with more than 4,000 injuries as a result of airstrikes. Among the dead are at least 140 children, according to Palestinian health sources in Gaza. Over a dozen Palestinians have also been shot and killed in the West Bank, primarily during confrontations with Israeli forces.

Israeli airstrikes continued to pound Gaza between Monday and Tuesday. Among the areas hit was the densely populated al-Rimal neighborhood in Gaza City, a largely commercial and residential area with apartment buildings, businesses, and shops.

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/operation-al-aqsa-flood-day-4-you-wanted-hell-you-will-get-hell-israeli-army-chief-says-calling-palestinians-human-animals/

[Chulanowa]

Please take a bit longer to read next time. I explicitly wrote 'stopped'.

Yes you did. And when you're talking about "the evil terrorists and the evil people who feed them who are "just as bad as the evil terrorists," it's hard to be so naive as to think you mean "stopped" as anything other than "killed." Especially since all those people - the families and doctors who shelter, the neighbors and co-workers who collaborate, the cooks and farmers who feed - are being bombed and shelled and otherwise turned into industrial grade human pulp.

But maybe I'm just seeing apartment blocks and clinics and border crossings being reduced to rubble on the backdrop of seventy-five years of horror, ethnic cleansing and oppression, and so am being uncharitable. Maybe you meant "the evil terrorists and the evil people they interact with daily who are all just as bad as the evil terrorists" ought to be restrained in a firm but loving hug. Or maybe, maybe you meant that the cause of the militants (and the evil people around them who are all just as bad as the evil terrorists!) itself ought to be stopped, by ending the occupation of Palestine entirely, recognizing the rights of Palestinian refugees, paying reparations for those seven decades of atrocity, and otherwise resolving the issues that spur these movements in a fair and just manner towards Palestine?

Yeah I bet that's it.

BBC news reports thousands of Hamas sites hit by aircraft.  Really, are there that many Hamas sites?

Hard to tell.

First off, Hamas has a military branch (Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades) and a social branch (Dawa). They do different things, and they really only overlap in staff when it comes to Hamas' function as a political party. But this means that both a rocket manufactory used by Izz al-Din and a kitchen managed by Dawa are "Hamas Sites."

There's also the logic used by ahem some people that asserts anywhere any member of hamas goes, anyone they interact with, is also "Hamas," and needs to be bombed to smithereens.

And then there's the propaganda of the Israel Defense Ministry. To hear the ministry tell it, they have magical bombs that have perfect pinpoint precision and produce explosions that only hit who they want to be hit by explosions, all delivered by cool, professional, perfectly-trained soldiers who would never stray from absolute protocol or international law, ever, even by mistake. There are never any accidents, never any mistakes, and certainly never any wanton destruction. Everywhere that has ever been damaged by an Israeli bomb or shell or missile is, according to the Ministry, a "Hamas Site." Everyone killed by Israeli fire is, according to the ministry, "A Hamas Terrorist." If pressed by the fact they bombed a school full of children it will claim that the children were "used as human shields." Basically everywhere an Israeli explosion hits becomes a "Hamas Site" and everyone killed in those explosions posthumously becomes a Hamas militant, according to the Defense Ministry.

[midnightblack]

I am of the same thought: the palestinians who just want to get along are not to blame. It's the Terrorists in Hamas and those evil people who collaborate with them, shelter them, feed them and occasionally fight alongside them... they are just as bad as the terrorists.

Such reprehensible people should be stopped sooner rather than later.

That's a lot of dead people you're wishing for there Inkybus. I'm not sure that's the same thought as anyone on this thread.

Please take a bit longer to read next time. I explicitly wrote 'stopped'.

Yes you did. And when you're talking about "the evil terrorists and the evil people who feed them who are "just as bad as the evil terrorists," it's hard to be so naive as to think you mean "stopped" as anything other than "killed." Especially since all those people - the families and doctors who shelter, the neighbors and co-workers who collaborate, the cooks and farmers who feed - are being bombed and shelled and otherwise turned into industrial grade human pulp.

But maybe I'm just seeing apartment blocks and clinics and border crossings being reduced to rubble on the backdrop of seventy-five years of horror, ethnic cleansing and oppression, and so am being uncharitable. Maybe you meant "the evil terrorists and the evil people they interact with daily who are all just as bad as the evil terrorists" ought to be restrained in a firm but loving hug. Or maybe, maybe you meant that the cause of the militants (and the evil people around them who are all just as bad as the evil terrorists!) itself ought to be stopped, by ending the occupation of Palestine entirely, recognizing the rights of Palestinian refugees, paying reparations for those seven decades of atrocity, and otherwise resolving the issues that spur these movements in a fair and just manner towards Palestine?

Yeah I bet that's it.

So, the tragedy in Israel aside, do you get this weird sort of kick, stimulation or dopamine rush when acting like you're several branches of the tree of life short from developing Broca's area and figuring out language?

That aside and returning to the main problem, the reality is that the horizon of a non-military solution is well beyond reach at this point. Removing Hamas one way or another (which may imply actively killing its members and supporters until they decide it might be a good idea to surrender) and returning the Gaza strip to a form of civilian control that doesn't involve terrorists, religious fanatics and several flavors of sociopaths is the only way to end violence and prevent it from escalating further. Israel itself could certainly do with fewer of the same in charge, though it might be too little too late for this generation. As always, the innocent suffer the most, their only fault being the incompetence and inadequacy of their leaders.   

[Forsaken]

Hamas has declared it is open to peace talks because they met their objectives! You really have to wonder about these people. What objectives? To kill civilians? To take hostages? To parade a naked dead woman on the front of your vehicle? They have no idea about optics and the Pro Palestine protests in the West, especially Sydney, Australia are a worry too. How exactly do you support a group that openly and purposely killed civilians the way they did? How do you defend that?

Israel will pound these people into dust. Hamas has no clue whatsoever what it has done. As the phrase from 1973 goes "The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." 

[Forsaken]

Hamas has declared it is open to peace talks because they met their objectives! You really have to wonder about these people. What objectives? To kill civilians? To take hostages? To parade a naked dead woman on the front of your vehicle? They have no idea about optics and the Pro Palestine protests in the West, especially Sydney, Australia are a worry too. How exactly do you support a group that openly and purposely killed civilians the way they did? How do you defend that?

Israel will pound these people into dust. Hamas has no clue whatsoever what it has done. As the phrase from 1973 goes "The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

https://nbcmontana.com/news/nation-world/at-least-40-babies-killed-beheaded-in-israeli-kibbutz-outside-gaza-reports-say-israel-palestine-hamas-terrorists-terrorism-invasion-middle-east-conflict-attack

Amazing people the Palestinians.

[GloomCookie]

If Hamas were indeed open to peace talks, they should have considered that before targeting a civilian music festival and carting off hostages. It doesn't help that in their hostage taking, they took several American hostages. Depending on how they wish to play thing, they might see that as a win.

They might decide that they want the US to act as an arbitrator, or even try to make demands for the hostages, figuring that the US military won't be able to handle supplying both Ukraine and Israel at the same time. That's a mistake, but that's because they don't understand that if America does one thing extremely well, it's logistics. We will get those arms where they need to go, and we will do so on time with a fresh apple pie.

Joking aside, there was a pair of letters released by students that received such harsh backlash, their names had to be redacted.

More than 30 student groups at Harvard released a statement after the attack saying that Israel was “entirely responsible for all unfolding violence,” and the University of Virginia’s Students for Justice in Palestine said Hamas’s actions, while left hundreds of Israeli civilians dead, represent “a step towards a free Palestine.”

“We stand in solidarity with Palestinian resistance fighters and all oppressed people around the world seeking freedom and a better world,” the UVA group said.

The Harvard letter received so much backlash, including from the university’s president, that the names of all the original signing organizations have been taken off. Harvard Hillel responded to it by saying they are “deeply pained that instead of finding solace and support among our Harvard community in the days following the bloodiest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, we encountered further hatred and anti-Semitism here in Cambridge.”

Yeah. There are a lot of reasons that Israel isn't necessarily the best country in the world, but claiming that they absolutely deserved hundreds of dead civilians perpetuated by a terrorist group is not exactly a critical thinking moment for the students here.

[Oniya]

Please keep the conversation on what's going on, rather than making personal attacks or engaging in hair-splitting.  Definitions of words can be found at https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary, should there be any confusion.

[RedPhoenix]

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/operation-al-aqsa-flood-day-4-you-wanted-hell-you-will-get-hell-israeli-army-chief-says-calling-palestinians-human-animals/

The site you quoted is funded by a holocaust denier who believes Jews drink blood and that Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion was too timid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondoweiss#Funding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Unz#Relation_to_anti-Semitism,_Holocaust_denial,_homosexuality_research,_etc.

Maybe that's why it forgot to mention the butchered Israeli babies.

[RedPhoenix]

figuring that the US military won't be able to handle supplying both Ukraine and Israel at the same time.

Moscow is certainly counting on it.

Sergey Mardan, one of Russia’s best-known propagandists and host of the eponymous show on the state channel Solovyov Live, wrote on his Telegram channel that he was happy for the Russians who moved to Israel because they didn’t want to live in a country that is at war with its neighbors.

He added, “This mess is beneficial for Russia, because the globalist toad will be distracted from Ukraine and will get busy trying to put out the eternal Middle Eastern fire.” Mardan explained, “Iran is our real military ally. Israel is an ally of the United States. Therefore, choosing a side is easy!” 

"‘Only Good News Today’ — Russia’s Propagandists Delight as Israelis Die - Russia reacts to events in Israel with schadenfreude and mockery"
https://cepa.org/article/only-good-news-today-russias-propagandists-delight-as-israelis-die/

(The Centre for European Policy Studies is described as an "independent platform for exchange and offer potential solutions for EU policymaking through research projects and publications")

It's not that hard to see why. Western money and resources going to defend Israel means less to defend Ukraine, which I think we all understand can't hold off Russia on its own. One might wonder at what point "world war is our best scenario" becomes morally repugnant but apparently Russia is past that point already.

But they aren't the only ones celebrating.

Tehran, which has commended the operation, has denied involvement. Iran’s mission to the United Nations issued a statement calling the attack “fiercely autonomous and unwaveringly aligned with the legitimate interests of the Palestinian people.”

Deputy national security adviser Jon Finer reiterated Monday that the United States believes Iran is “broadly complicit” in Hamas attacks in Israel, but said the US does not have “direct information” linking these attacks to Iran at this time.

"Hamas and Iran are longtime allies. Did Tehran help with its attack on Israel?"
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/09/middleeast/hamas-iran-israel-attack-analysis-intl/index.html

Hamas leadership of course, was nowhere near any of this because despite what Tehran says it's impossible to see how any of this is going to do anything good for the Palestinian people. Not that Hamas leadership has been there in quite awhile. They lounge around in hotels more luxurious than most people reading this thread will ever stay in hundreds of miles away from Gaza while sending a generation of radicalized young men to start a war that they know has only one outcome.

The Hamas leader behind the deadliest attack on Israel watched and celebrated the invasion from the safety of his Qatar office.

Ismail Haniyeh was spotted with other Hamas officials cheering for joy before they prostrated themselves on the floor and praised God.

It came as the terrorist group launched the single deadliest attack ever launched against Israel - which the Jewish state has claimed is 'our 9/11'.

Israeli media said at least 700 people were killed and 2,000 wounded in Saturday's attack.

US secretary of state Antony Blinken said as many as 1,000 Hamas fighters were involved in the assault, a high figure that underscored the extent of planning by the militant group ruling Gaza.

"How Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh watched attack on Israel on TV from his office in Qatar as he celebrated with other officials"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12608271/How-Hamas-leader-Ismail-Haniyeh-watched-attack-Israel-TV-office-Qatar-celebrated-officials.html

These attacks have also stalled the year-long protests from within Israel to stop their government from expanding its power. This is probably going to be the worst damage to Israel in the long-term, at least from the perspective of those who want a better Israeli government. Picture all the power us Americans gave up to our government post 9/11. It's hard to imagine the exact same thing isn't going to happen in Israel now.

In response to the 7 October incursions from the Gaza Strip, several organizations have paused their protests and called for anyone who is called for military service to "stand for the defense of Israel immediately and without hesitation"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform_protests

And for those wondering why, if things are so bad in Gaza, the people don't just leave, here's an informative article. The short answer is - they do when they can. But they have to not only find an open way out, they have to deal with Hamas often not letting people leave on top of that. That's assuming they can even gather the resources necessary to pack up their lives and go in the first place. Or find somewhere willing to take them.

He departed through Gaza's main portal to the world, a black iron gate on the Egyptian border.

In recent years, this gate has been open only a couple of days every few months, as Egypt and Israel imposed a blockade to contain Hamas and keep militants from getting out. Egypt tightened its border after the 2013 overthrow of the country's Islamist President Mohammed Morsi and as it battled militants near Gaza in the northern Sinai Peninsula.

In May 2018, the border gate was opened to "alleviate the burdens of the brothers in the Gaza Strip," as Egypt's President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi tweeted. Days earlier, as the U.S. inaugurated its new embassy in Jerusalem, Israeli troops fatally shot 59 Palestinians and wounded more than 2,700 during protests and violence along the Israeli fence with Gaza.

The Egyptian border crossing has remained open, teeming with young men like Kurdi, waiting for Hamas authorities to call their names over a scratchy loudspeaker to board a bus and cross. Absent official emigration statistics, experts in Gaza estimate 35,000 to 40,000 Gazans have left since mid-2018.

"It's: 'Let me get out of Gaza and I'll figure it out,' " says Caitlin Procter, a Harvard University research fellow studying migration out of Gaza. "It speaks to the level of desperation."

"'I Want To Get The Hell Out Of Here': Thousands Of Palestinians Are Leaving Gaza"
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/04/733487137/i-want-to-get-the-hell-out-of-here-thousands-of-palestinians-are-leaving-gaza

I'm not making excuses for what Hamas did, but it is worth pointing out that it's very easy to be radicalized when your life is this hopeless and you live in a police state. The Palestinians are the sacrificial pawns here. Like always. :(

It seems a lot of Americans are just calling this another day in the Middle East, but I fear this is just the start.

[inkybus]

And of course those nutcases in Hamas try to play off their reprehensible actions to a higher power, as if that shit was not already old 928 years ago. Lunatics!

[Chulanowa]

So, the tragedy in Israel aside, do you get this weird sort of kick, stimulation or dopamine rush when acting like you're several branches of the tree of life short from developing Broca's area and figuring out language?

I understand how "context" works. But like I said, I'm sure I was being unduly uncharitable due to the circumstances, and Inkybus totally was calling for the full liberation of Palestine as a method of stopping militant resistance to the occupation.

Speaking of.

That aside and returning to the main problem, the reality is that the horizon of a non-military solution is well beyond reach at this point. Removing Hamas one way or another (which may imply actively killing its members and supporters until they decide it might be a good idea to surrender) and returning the Gaza strip to a form of civilian control that doesn't involve terrorists, religious fanatics and several flavors of sociopaths is the only way to end violence and prevent it from escalating further. Israel itself could certainly do with fewer of the same in charge, though it might be too little too late for this generation. As always, the innocent suffer the most, their only fault being the incompetence and inadequacy of their leaders.

Before Hamas, it was Islamic Jihad. Before Islamic Jihad, it was an alphabet soup of militant organizations; the PLA, the PFLP, DLFP, PLF, ALF, PAF. Lots of P's, L's and F's in that soup I guess. Several of those are actually still going, but Western reporting tends to blanket them under Hamas, just like all of the small ones got blanketed under the PLA back in the day. After Hamas, it will be someone else not too far removed launching rockets or sending bombs or doing whatever else

Why is that?

Well, I know the answer dancing in a lot of noggins is that this is some sort of "proof" of Palestinian (or perhaps Arab, or perhaps Muslim) aberrance. "They're incapable of peace!" "They only understand violence!" "They're ALL evil!" or something along those lines. Such brilliant minds love to go "Where are the peaceful protestors?!" and "Where is the Palestinian Gandhi!" - not so much actually wondering these things (there's been a ton of peaceful protest and nonviolent resistance by Palestinians, after all) but as a method of blaming the brutality the Palestinians face regularly on the Palestinians themselves, for "not producing a Gandhi," instead of on the people doing the brutalizing.

(Which is ironically sort of like how Gandhi blamed the Jews for millions of Jews killed in the Holocaust because they didn't willingly "offer themselves to the butcher's knife." Apparently he thought the willing sacrifice of a smaller million would have "aroused the nations against Germany" and saved a greater million, proving that Gandhi was kind of a dumbfuck.)

But okay, so why the long history of militancy, and the absolute certainty it will continue, even if somehow the latest big-name group is "stopped"?

Well... it's the occupation. It's always been the occupation. See these excuses of blaming the character of Palestinians, or acting like militancy is some sort of evil corruption vs. "the good ones" is nothing but excuse-making for the Israeli occupation of Palestine. It's apologia. It's a bunch of smug and broadly ignorant people trying to make a fig leaf for the occupation and all it entails, either became they agree with it, or because they don't know enough to bother disagreeing (which should lead one to going "I don't know enough to have an opinion," but hate is cathartic so there we go)

Militant violence against occupation and occupiers is a regular thing through history. It is literally regarded as an inherent right to all people under international law. Such resistances are often characterized as heroes, even when they are brutal and their acts otherwise reprehensible. The French resistance against the Nazis didn't stop at killing Nazis. They murdered a fucking lot of French people seen as "collaborators," from actual Vichy officials (who were definitely collaborators) to prostitutes who took hire from Germans. Here in the US we have (mostly) gotten over the conceits of "ungodly massacres committed by the red Indians" and recognize at least some heroism in men like Crazy Horse, Tecumseh, and Geronimo, who absolutely fucking did kill a lot of unarmed civilians over the course of their resistance to invasion and colonization. Israel sees the first-century kanai and the second-century Bar Kokhba revolt as inspirational, if not foundational, and those motherfuckers certainly did not save their knives exclusively for the Roman Legions.

So long as there is an occupation to fight against, it will be fought, in whatever form or method the occupied judge to be effective or able. So if you want to stop the militancy, you need to end the occupation that literally guarantees that militancy.

The site you quoted is funded by a holocaust denier who believes Jews drink blood and that Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion was too timid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondoweiss#Funding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Unz#Relation_to_anti-Semitism,_Holocaust_denial,_homosexuality_research,_etc.

Maybe that's why it forgot to mention the butchered Israeli babies.

RedPhoenix, you cite the DailyMail in your post after this, an Islamophobic and racist rag run by shitgibbons for shitgibbons. It's such a mess that it's banned as a source on Wikipedia. Ironically it's also ardently pro-Russia in most regards, so kinda surprised to see it as your go-to.

Maybe we ought to stick to the content rather than trying to well-poison; any media source is going to have all sorts of shit dragging along behind it after all.

[elone]

The site you quoted is funded by a holocaust denier who believes Jews drink blood and that Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion was too timid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondoweiss#Funding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Unz#Relation_to_anti-Semitism,_Holocaust_denial,_homosexuality_research,_etc.

Maybe that's why it forgot to mention the butchered Israeli babies.

Maybe you should have mentioned that your information comes from the Anti-Defamation League, one of the most far right and pro Israel sites anywhere and one that spews misinformation.

I did not mention the thousands of innocent civilians that Israel had murdered/bombed over the years and will continue in Gaza, babies included.

[RedPhoenix]

RedPhoenix, you cite the DailyMail in your post after this, an Islamophobic and racist rag run by shitgibbons for shitgibbons. It's such a mess that it's banned as a source on Wikipedia. Ironically it's also ardently pro-Russia in most regards, so kinda surprised to see it as your go-to.

Maybe we ought to stick to the content rather than trying to well-poison; any media source is going to have all sorts of shit dragging along behind it after all.

No, copy pasting white supremacist propaganda from a blog funded by holocaust deniers that are attempting to pass it off as "news" is not even on the same stratosphere as citing to a shit-stirring tabloid, which I readily concede is what the dailymail is, when the only thing I cited to that place for was the content of a video directly on the link at the time.

Ironically the article you linked on wikipedia doesn't support most of your points. There's nothing there about a pro-Russia bias or Islamophobia. The only section on racism is three sentences, two specific articles an a quote from an ex employee that says nobody he worked with was racist but the place was institutionally so. You could say that about almost any English speaking news source that existed prior to the turn of the century and probably most that came after too (well, except the nobody there being racist bit, the complete opposite has been said about all sorts of media that's still credible by wiki's standards). And two racist articles? Accusation of islamophobia and pro russia bias? That is the sort of general public opinion attack that you could level at the New York Times just as easily if you aren't going to cite anything for it.

I linked that article for the video that appeared to be directly in the site at the time whereas everywhere else was just embedding it from twitter. At the time it was the most reliable source I could find for anyone who wanted to watch the video (literal video, not the opinion of the writers or anyone else, actual video of what was happening) for the point I was using it for - that the leaders of Hamas were calling for violence that they were never going to suffer from. I haven't seen anything that would suggest this is not completely true.

Now that the video in question has been uploaded all over the internet you can find it all over. Hell, you can watch it on this Spanish soccer magazine's site: https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/world-news/2023/10/10/6524861122601d69168b45a3.html if the upload source is getting in the way.

What I did was read through what elone posted, wonder why it was so different than the accounts from the apnews and the guardian on the same topics (the ap news site is constantly updating so I can't find the same article now but they aren't shying away at all from pointing out what Israel is doing) - https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-airstrikes-hostages-e4ae51a640a3fc04b23ea9561703f874, (same with the guardian this probably won't even show the same content by the time you read it) https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/11/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-death-toll-us-egypt-passage-gaza and wonder why such a clearly one-sided account was posted when reputable sources are so readily available that are doing nothing to sugar coat Israel's aggression and aren't just reporting numbers and events presented in a way to make Israel look a bad as possible (which is really not something you have to go off the beaten path for here).

I found the answer to that question and posted it after reading the article in question and wondering why it was presenting such a different picture. I found nothing to suggest it had access to more accurate information than the AP did, and so I checked to see if there was some other explanation and it came up really easily - it's presenting a different story than credible news sources because it's white supremacist propaganda from a blog funded by a person who thinks the Jews should be exterminated.

I'm going to take the apparently controversial position that such bile doesn't belong on Elliquiy.

Maybe you should have mentioned that your information comes from the Anti-Defamation League, one of the most far right and pro Israel sites anywhere and one that spews misinformation.

I did not mention the thousands of innocent civilians that Israel had murdered/bombed over the years and will continue in Gaza, babies included.

Those links are to wikipedia. If you think what they've posted is wrong you should probably tell them. 

Are you disputing that the blog you linked to is funded by holocaust deniers?

[inkybus]

Reputable sources are so readily available that are doing nothing to sugar coat Israel's aggression and aren't just reporting numbers and events presented in a way to make Israel look a bad as possible (which is really not something you have to go off the beaten path for here).

Here's hoping that those that make it out and away from the bloodshed find a better life away from the monstrosity of their leadership, on both sides.

[RedPhoenix]

Here's hoping that those that make it out and away from the bloodshed find a better life away from the monstrosity of their leadership, on both sides.

Yeah, that's the next humanitarian crisis looming here. More than two million residents of Gaza are now refugees.

Egypt is so filled with refugees already from all the neighboring wars - https://www.unhcr.org/eg/about-us/refugee-context-in-egypt - 300,000 war refugees currently.

Lebanon is overwhelmed too, Syria is in shambles. Currently most Palestinian refugees live in Jordan, but who knows how many more they can take? I guess they're to figure that out now.

This appears to be what Biden is pushing for at the moment - a way out for all the innocent Gazans. But two million people are going to be very hard to find homes for. And it's not just the bombing. Food and medical supplies are already gone. The innocents in Gaza obviously didn't plan for this, nor really could they have given how little access to resources they have.

“None of us even know what ‘safe’ means in Gaza,” said 28-year-old Hind Khoudary, who was hunkered down in the upscale Roots Hotel as deafening explosions thundered.

“These are not people with (militant) affiliations, these are people from higher classes, foreign organizations and media,” she said of those around her. “But on days like this, there is zero difference.”

Residents described a dangerous dance around the heavy Israeli bombing — fleeing home, crashing at relatives’ apartments, fleeing again to U.N. schools and then starting all over again in an attempt to find some sense of safety.

“It is better than dying,” said 37-year-old Muhammad al-Bishawi, exhausted as he hustled between a U.N. shelter in Gaza City and his home in Beit Lahiya to secure food and other supplies before returning.

On Saturday after the massive Hamas attack, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned Gaza civilians of the horrors to come, promising to unleash the full force of the Israeli military on the strip.

“Get out now,” he said, addressing Palestinians in Gaza. “Because we will operate everywhere.”

Khoudary was listening to him as the airstrikes intensified, trapped in her home with nowhere to run.

“Why didn’t he tell us where to flee?” she asked. “Because we’d really like to know.”

"Under heavy bombing, Palestinians in Gaza move from place to place, only to discover nowhere is safe"
https://apnews.com/article/palestinians-israel-hamas-gaza-2f3d8a95f8b8324d1b002048ff3eb34b

We had a local program for Syrian refugees a few years ago but we only ever managed to get a small handful through all the immigration hurdles. For all the rhetoric nobody in the West ever seems to want to open the door for these poor people. I don't even know if I'm healthy enough to go through all that again either now.

[elone]

What I did was read through what elone posted, wonder why it was so different than the accounts from the apnews and the guardian on the same topics (the ap news site is constantly updating so I can't find the same article now but they aren't shying away at all from pointing out what Israel is doing) - https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-airstrikes-hostages-e4ae51a640a3fc04b23ea9561703f874, (same with the guardian this probably won't even show the same content by the time you read it) https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/11/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-death-toll-us-egypt-passage-gaza and wonder why such a clearly one-sided account was posted when reputable sources are so readily available that are doing nothing to sugar coat Israel's aggression and aren't just reporting numbers and events presented in a way to make Israel look a bad as possible (which is really not something you have to go off the beaten path for here).

I found the answer to that question and posted it after reading the article in question and wondering why it was presenting such a different picture. I found nothing to suggest it had access to more accurate information than the AP did, and so I checked to see if there was some other explanation and it came up really easily - it's presenting a different story than credible news sources because it's white supremacist propaganda from a blog funded by a person who thinks the Jews should be exterminated.

I'm going to take the apparently controversial position that such bile doesn't belong on Elliquiy.

Those links are to wikipedia. If you think what they've posted is wrong you should probably tell them. 

Are you disputing that the blog you linked to is funded by holocaust deniers?

Just a comment, no matter where the information came from, that does not make any of it or all of it untrue. Wikipedia quotes the IDF and Anti Defamation League as sources for information. They are hardly infallible and change their stories like the wind changes direction. I checked the validity of most of it. Some of what you may see as controversial was run in the Times if Israel and the Washington Post. You tube videos are online showing what was purportedly said and who said them. Mondoweiss receives some funding from Ron Utz it appears.  I had never heard of the man. In any case it sounds like "shoot the messenger".  Of course, all these may be wrong or products of AI.

[RedPhoenix]

The ADL is not the source for Unz's quotes. Unz himself is. Here they are, all from the article I linked:

In July 2018, in articles for The Unz Review, he wrote about the claims in the Czarist forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Henry Ford's The International Jew. Ford's work, a series of antisemitic pamphlets published in the 1920s, appeared to Unz to be "quite plausible and factually-oriented, even sometimes overly cautious in their presentation." He partly accepted the standard consensus on the Protocols but believes they were assembled by "someone who was generally familiar with the secretive machinations of elite international Jews against the existing governments... who drafted the document to outline his view of their strategic plans."

In August 2018, Unz made use of Holocaust denial arguments and wrote, "I think it far more likely than not that the standard Holocaust narrative is at least substantially false, and quite possibly, almost entirely so." That same year, The Unz Review published material written by Holocaust denier Kevin Barrett, while Unz himself defended David Irving, who lost his libel case against Deborah Lipstadt. Unz also implied that Mossad was involved in the murders of President John F. Kennedy and his brother Robert. Writing about the 2001 September 11 attacks in a September 2018 article for his Review, Unz stated: "the vast weight of the evidence clearly points in a single direction, implicating Israel and its Mossad intelligence service, with the case being overwhelmingly strong in motive, means, and opportunity.”

So to make sure I understand, your current position is that this was all generated by AI to make him look bad? Or is your reference to "youtube videos" that you think the Jews doing 9-1-1 is accurate, because lord knows that's all over youtube.

State your position clearly please.

[elone]

The ADL is not the source for Unz's quotes. Unz himself is. Here they are, all from the article I linked:

So to make sure I understand, your current position is that this was all generated by AI to make him look bad? Or is your reference to "youtube videos" that you think the Jews doing 9-1-1 is accurate, because lord knows that's all over youtube.

State your position clearly please.

No, you are as wrong as it gets. I asserted that "all these" may be AI in reference to the entire post. Somewhat tongue in cheek but you took it as literal truth and referring to Unz.( I guess potato chips are off my list, Utz is way to close). I do not support Unz or any of his beliefs as I see them. At any rate, you are way off topic, I suggest you start a a new one. My reference to videos was from watching someone from the Israel Defense Ministry speaking.

So the answer is you understand nothing of my positions and ignore most of them.

[RedPhoenix]

I'm glad that you disavow those views and that you won't be posting blogs funded by people who push them anymore.

See we can all get along when we're reasonable.

Moving on, if anyone finds anything about organizations helping refugees please post it here. It's so hard to figure out what's actually going to help in these early days of a crisis.

[inkybus]

I gotta chime in just a sec here that the name of the website "Mondoweiss" is very tongue-in-cheek. The only worse way would've been just naming themselves Stormfront.

Mondo=world, weiss=white.

Poetry.

[elone]

I'm glad that you disavow those views and that you won't be posting blogs funded by people who push them anymore.

Where did anyone say that?

I gotta chime in just a sec here that the name of the website "Mondoweiss" is very tongue-in-cheek. The only worse way would've been just naming themselves Stormfront.

Mondo=world, weiss=white.

I guess everyone with weiss in their name should go change it immediately? It is a fairly common name actually. Philip Weiss is the editor.

"Philip Weiss is an investigative journalist whose work has appeared in the New York Times Magazine, Esquire, and Harper's. A controversial 2008 article, "The Affairs of Men," published in New York magazine, sought to explain why so many men pursue sexual variety. Weiss also writes the Anti-Zionism blog, Mondoweiss. He is the author of American Taboo: A Murder In The Peace Corps, and he's working on a novel."

Like I said, "Don't shoot the messenger"

[RedPhoenix]

Where did anyone say that?

It comes with disavowing something. When you reject a belief you don't go around spreading it. Hope that helps.

[inkybus]

Philip Weiss is the editor.

And 88 is "just a number".

But at least it's a good way to filter stuff, for me. And don't worry, no one is shooting the messenger- just a bit of Vicious Mockery will do.

[elone]

Sorry, 88 means nothing tome and vicious mockery has no place here unless you want this topic shut down.

For you information, Weiss is not Unz.  They are different people. Read the Mondoweiss rules. You could also call it Weiss' world. I think you would find anti semitism under a rock in the desert. Being against apartheid and supporting Palestinian rights (not Hamas murder) is not anti semitic.  If you even know what that means. From Websters.

Semite
noun
Sem·​ite ˈse-ˌmīt   especially British  ˈsē-ˌmīt
1: a. member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs
    b. descendant of these peoples

2: a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language