Griping About Politics

[Missy]

It's also wildly successful in terms of quality of life for its citizens.

I suppose that depends on your definition of quality of life.

[Notadrywall]

Not really. By basically any metric,  China's quality of life has been consistently going up at impressive rate.

[Forsaken]

No, you got the warning PM for being rude.

If that were the case then the ones who instigated it and attacked me should have got warnings.

No. It's because I'm conservative.

[Chulanowa]

You held up China as a model of socialist economic success. I just pointed out one of the considerably less savoury aspects of that model. In fairness, I can understand why you'd have preferred it if I'd kept quiet about it.

And then I explained to you how two facts can both be true at the same time. For instance, "China lifted literally billions of people out of destitution through socialist policies" is a true statement, and "China has engaged in egregious over-reach and human rights abuses in Xinjiang in the name of fighting terrorism" is also a true statement. You quoted that so I have to assume you read it.

Now I'm curious, Chula - you say you identify as a Marxist/Leninist, but you're speaking very positively of Maoist China. I was under the strong impression, from other self-described Communists, that the two were not very compatible or friendly with each other.

Are you talking about Maoism as in Marxism-Leninism-Maoism? Or as in the weird personality cult that formed around Mao? Or the Communist Party of China's Marxism-Leninism with Mao Zedong Thought (which is quite different from M-L-M)? Since we're talking about China, I'm guessing that one; in which case are you talking about MLwMZT before Mao's death, or after Deng Xiaoping's revisions? Or perhaps the new popular movement to re-revise it to return more to something of orthodox Marxism? (as was the nucleus of the Tianamen Square and Jasic Worker protests)

This shit gets complicated and to be truthful, is mostly over my head.

While I'm sure there's plenty of Marxist-Leninists who have animosity towards Mao Zedong Thought (especially the modern iteration, often denigrated as "Dengism") and vice-versa I... usually don't bother with factional fighting. I mean shitposting, yeah you bet, that's a time-honored intra-Marxist tradition. Criticism and debate on ideas, absolutely, that's core stuff. But actually being like "nooooo you have a book on your reading list I don't like! You don't accept this idea I consider orthodox, arrrgh!" stuff, nah, that's just wasted energy. Gains nothing.

Marxism is supposed to be scientific (or at least, as scientific as one can get with socioeconomic theory.) meaning that you collect data, examine your theory with the new data, and update the theory as needed to conform with the data gathered. Since obviously Karl Marx had a pretty limited worldview, and there's been a lot of brains applied to Marxism in the intervening 175 years, there's been a lot of data and thought and examination since "Capital." And since Lenin, since Stalin, since Mao, since Castro, since Hoxha, etc.

I see no reason to disparage the clear gains of China under a socialist model simply because that model does not perfectly conform to one that I cleave closer to. Every society is going to engage with socialism in a different way, according to the needs and history and traditions and conditions of that society.

[Chulanowa]

If that were the case then the ones who instigated it and attacked me should have got warnings.

No. It's because I'm conservative.

Let me lay it out for you. All pretensions aside, Elliquiy is a site where people come to write smut, mostly about their favorite Netflix Original Series. PRoC exists primarily as the site's grease trap, to keep "unpleasant" topics from floating out of the bilge and into other sections of the site.

What I'm getting at is that this is a fucking silly place, and the idea of trying to make yourself a righteous martyr of conservativism on the same site where people post Dr. Who inflation porn as roleplay promps is just goofy as hell.

So just take my advice and chill the hell out a bit, man.

[Oniya]

If that were the case then the ones who instigated it and attacked me should have got warnings.

No. It's because I'm conservative.

Seeing that most people don't make a public spectacle about being reminded to read the stickies, you have no data on which to base that assumption.

[Forsaken]

Let me lay it out for you. All pretensions aside, Elliquiy is a site where people come to write smut, mostly about their favorite Netflix Original Series. PRoC exists primarily as the site's grease trap, to keep "unpleasant" topics from floating out of the bilge and into other sections of the site.

What I'm getting at is that this is a fucking silly place, and the idea of trying to make yourself a righteous martyr of conservativism on the same site where people post Dr. Who inflation porn as roleplay promps is just goofy as hell.

So just take my advice and chill the hell out a bit, man.

I was and am chilled. I just don't take shit.

I do love how you and others are making assumptions about me and attacking me. Don't worry you all seem to be Left wingers so nothing will happen to you.

[Vekseid]

I was and am chilled. I just don't take shit.

You do talk a fucking lot of it. "Where was everyone else's warning PM!?"

...in private messages. There's a key word there.

Do you have any idea how often we get that?

I've been told to chill out for my own attitude at points.

I could have a hissy fit. Become so hostile I have to shut the site down because I can't convince the community to continue supporting it and am afraid at my complete lack of understanding of the site's legal situation.

Or I could just... chill out.



Seriously ask Chula how much he feels I respect his opinions.

You use language like this...

Keep denying. It is what the Left do. Deny, deny, deny.

...is this supposed to convince people?

It's just putting up an image of a person and arguing with the image, rather than with the person themselves. It doesn't convince anyone of much other than painting yourself as an ass.

I'm very moderate overall.

Yet looking through your posts here you only complain about 'the Left', so you should probably understand people are skeptical of what you say in this regard.

[TheGlyphstone]

And then I explained to you how two facts can both be true at the same time. For instance, "China lifted literally billions of people out of destitution through socialist policies" is a true statement, and "China has engaged in egregious over-reach and human rights abuses in Xinjiang in the name of fighting terrorism" is also a true statement. You quoted that so I have to assume you read it.

Are you talking about Maoism as in Marxism-Leninism-Maoism? Or as in the weird personality cult that formed around Mao? Or the Communist Party of China's Marxism-Leninism with Mao Zedong Thought (which is quite different from M-L-M)? Since we're talking about China, I'm guessing that one; in which case are you talking about MLwMZT before Mao's death, or after Deng Xiaoping's revisions? Or perhaps the new popular movement to re-revise it to return more to something of orthodox Marxism? (as was the nucleus of the Tianamen Square and Jasic Worker protests)

This shit gets complicated and to be truthful, is mostly over my head.

While I'm sure there's plenty of Marxist-Leninists who have animosity towards Mao Zedong Thought (especially the modern iteration, often denigrated as "Dengism") and vice-versa I... usually don't bother with factional fighting. I mean shitposting, yeah you bet, that's a time-honored intra-Marxist tradition. Criticism and debate on ideas, absolutely, that's core stuff. But actually being like "nooooo you have a book on your reading list I don't like! You don't accept this idea I consider orthodox, arrrgh!" stuff, nah, that's just wasted energy. Gains nothing.

Marxism is supposed to be scientific (or at least, as scientific as one can get with socioeconomic theory.) meaning that you collect data, examine your theory with the new data, and update the theory as needed to conform with the data gathered. Since obviously Karl Marx had a pretty limited worldview, and there's been a lot of brains applied to Marxism in the intervening 175 years, there's been a lot of data and thought and examination since "Capital." And since Lenin, since Stalin, since Mao, since Castro, since Hoxha, etc.

I see no reason to disparage the clear gains of China under a socialist model simply because that model does not perfectly conform to one that I cleave closer to. Every society is going to engage with socialism in a different way, according to the needs and history and traditions and conditions of that society.

It sounds like the other thing I was told is right at least- put five Communists in a room and you'll get seven answers to what Communism is. :-)

If it helps any, the definition I had in my head from that long-ago conversation was that "Maoist/Stalinist" ideals were essentially pro-authoritarian, that a revolutionary minority forcibly imposing a socialist state and concentrating all power into a small group was a good and necessary step along the road to communism. Meanwhile "Marxism" held to the opposite, that a successful socialist uprising needed willing mass support from the proletariat, and that concentrating the power simply created a new bourgeois/elite caste - in this case, the Communist Party/Chinese Communist Party itself - who would have no reason to relinquish their control.

I knew there would be an immense degree of nuance beyond that, but it was the surface level impression I had of the divide - whether the authoritarian, totalitarian states imposed by Stalin and Mao and carried forward into the police state of modern China were positive inevitabilities along or corrupt deviations from the road to communism.

[Forsaken]

You do talk a fucking lot of it. "Where was everyone else's warning PM!?"

...in private messages. There's a key word there.

Do you have any idea how often we get that?

I've been told to chill out for my own attitude at points.

I could have a hissy fit. Become so hostile I have to shut the site down because I can't convince the community to continue supporting it and am afraid at my complete lack of understanding of the site's legal situation.

Or I could just... chill out.



Seriously ask Chula how much he feels I respect his opinions.

You use language like this...

...is this supposed to convince people?

It's just putting up an image of a person and arguing with the image, rather than with the person themselves. It doesn't convince anyone of much other than painting yourself as an ass.

Yet looking through your posts here you only complain about 'the Left', so you should probably understand people are skeptical of what you say in this regard.

Hmmm look in the mirror.

[GloomCookie]

Hmmm look in the mirror.

Dude, chill. You're not the only conservative on this forum, but you're viciously attacking anyone you perceive as left leaning. I may not always get along with Vekseid and we have had disagreements in the past, but we're respectful and tolerant of each other. And believe me, I've said a lot of stupid shit here in PROC that Vekseid has taken issue with, but he has never attacked me personally. He will try and poke holes in my arguments, which is what a good debate is about. You seem focused on targeting people for their beliefs. Take a step back, breathe, calm down, and relax.

[Rinzler]

China has engaged in egregious over-reach and human rights abuses in Xinjiang in the name of fighting terrorism

Have to say that forced labour and forced sterilization is quite the novel way of fighting terrorism. Still, as you were.

[Chulanowa]

Have to say that forced labour and forced sterilization is quite the novel way of fighting terrorism. Still, as you were.

Thus the "egregious overreach" and "human rights abuses" part of my post(s).

Seriously ask Chula how much he feels I respect his opinions.

Giggling at the implication that I would have an answer other than "huh?"

[Rinzler]

Thus the "egregious overreach" and "human rights abuses" part of my post(s).

Which should've been enough. Yet you saw fit to add the 'in the name of fighting terrorism' part. Why did you do that?

[Vekseid]

I didn't get the impression Chula meant it to be exculpatory. That's just the dressing they place on it because if they called it 'Sinification' there would be no illusions about what it is, and it would taint every past 'Sinification' event accordingly.

[Chulanowa]

Which should've been enough. Yet you saw fit to add the 'in the name of fighting terrorism' part. Why did you do that?

Because that's the reasoning China is using for what they're doing.

What are you struggling with?

[Rinzler]

Because that's the reasoning China is using for what they're doing.

Do you think that reasoning is spurious or not?

What are you struggling with?

Not what you're struggling with, apparently.

[Chulanowa]

Do you think that reasoning is spurious or not?

Spurious? No, because in fact there have been quite a few terrorist attacks by various groups in Xinjiang. The Turkestan Islamic Party has also staged a few in the rest of China, and has even tried to conduct attacks as far afield as Norway.

I think China's response to this in Xinjiang has resulted in egregious overreach and human rights abuses, however.

Not what you're struggling with, apparently.

True, you're not having to deal with a constantly-hostile Brit who's working hard to misunderstand every word said to you.

My current struggle is that I'm using english to talk to a British person. Maybe I could try to transcribe a Dane farting through caramel pudding

[Chulanowa]

Mental note; make sure to actually delete the snarky response you type but don't want to post  XD

[Rinzler]

Calm down dude. This is, as you say, just a site where people come to write Dr Who sex stories.

Anyway, I'll let it go now, as you've thoroughly confirmed my suspicion that all that lies ahead for us is an impasse. And frankly, I also suspect the mods are hovering. Anyway, have a good day!

BTW, I wasn't being hostile, just wry and urbane like the proper chap I am.

[Oniya]

In case people were wondering - it turns out that Forsaken was a repeat offender who has been previously permabanned and has been attempting duplicates for 10 years.  It seems his sole purpose in life is to join ERP forums and make an ass of himself to get banned, claiming the 'Left' is out to get him. 

Be excellent to one another.

[Missy]

[Chulanowa]

In case people were wondering - it turns out that Forsaken was a repeat offender who has been previously permabanned and has been attempting duplicates for 10 years.  It seems his sole purpose in life is to join ERP forums and make an ass of himself to get banned, claiming the 'Left' is out to get him. 

Be excellent to one another.

That's some Wile E. Coyote shit

[TheGlyphstone]

Now that he's gone, Chula, did you miss my earlier question about clearing up my apparent misconceptions regarding Marxist/Maoist thought? I'm always interested in learning about other points of view on the world.

[GloomCookie]

In case people were wondering - it turns out that Forsaken was a repeat offender who has been previously permabanned and has been attempting duplicates for 10 years.  It seems his sole purpose in life is to join ERP forums and make an ass of himself to get banned, claiming the 'Left' is out to get him. 

Be excellent to one another.

Damn. I mean, I kinda figured it was something stupid like that. Anyway, carry on my peeps.