Fighting Your Friends (On Political/Social Topics)

[Panthean]

In the heat of the presidential campaign and in light of the recent state laws passed regarding the use of gender-specific restroom facilities across multiple states, I have come to find myself in more and more heated debates with not only random people on the internet but with some of my friends as well, and not only on the topic of transgender issues but on the topics of homosexuality, guns, crime, #BlackLivesMatter, illegal immigration, etc. Recently, these topics made feminism, something that used to dominate the discourse on my Facebook feed, fall to the back-burner in the wake of the 2016 political season. And in this discourse I come across ignorance, as well as bias--conscious and unconscious--including my own, and in no small amounts from anyone. When I get into these debates with people I don't know, it hardly affects me. I win or I lose, I learn or I teach or I accomplish nothing and I move on. But when it comes to my friends, it's a little more frustrating.

Understand first that I don't add anyone to my list of Facebook friends that I haven't met in real life. It's a very private social network for me. Some of them I've known for years. Some I am closer to than others, but I am actually friends with all of them. I have two friends who are pro gun, one of whom is a veteran. I have several friends who are pro gun-control. I have many friends who support Sanders, some who support Hillary, and a couple who support Trump... as well as another one or two who don't like Trump but will vote for him over the democratic nominee, regardless. I have... many Christian friends who I met when I was a "born again" evangelical, of which, most are anti-gay marriage, many are transphobic, but a few of whom are staunch allies and supporters like myself. When it comes to topics of race, I have learned a lot in the past few years and will likely learn a lot more in the coming years, however, I find myself in quite a bit of disagreement with what I see as misdirection and lack of cohesion within the #BlackLivesMatter movement, and my friends are all over the place when it comes to race as it relates to crime and police brutality. Thankfully, I do not believe I have any climate change deniers as friends--at least they haven't made their views known.

Simply not taking part in these discussions is not an option, in my opinion. I'm not one to shy away from an argument, even one which I am most certain to lose given the crowd I'm arguing with. And these issues, I believe, are important. I believe that if I can open a dialogue with someone, and teach them something I know or learn something I didn't know that that can enlighten us, and help make more informed, better choices--knowledge is the greatest weapon against injustice as well as our own biases, conscious or unconscious. Furthermore, one thing that #BlackLivesMatter has convinced me of is that not talking about an issue is as good as my consent to the issue--it's a concept that applies not only to race but to every issue, political or otherwise.

So the question I pose to you here on Elliquiy is this: When it comes to discussions on topics such as these with the people you know who disagree with you, how do you fare? How do you start and get involved with these discussions and how do you make your point without losing your friends? And... I suppose I'm also curious what kind of things your friends say on these matters that gets you to respond? What also, are the things they say that irk or offend you?

Personally, one of my most hated statements is "TL;DR." Because it often comes after I respond to something they said. And to describe my feelings... there's a line in the song "Farmer Refuted" from the hit Broadway musical Hamilton. In the song, a man offers "free thoughts on the continental congress" in opposition of the Revolution. The line comes when the man continues to repeat himself without responding to Hamilton and Hamilton says "Don't modulate the key and not debate with me!" It is my sentiment exactly... "You started this discussion when you made that post. If you don't want to read my or anyone else's counter-arguments, then you shouldn't post stuff like that to begin with."

[Oniya]

With regards to the gun control issue, you might want to read some of Jim Wright's pieces on Stonekettle.  He's a gun owner (and veteran) who is pro-gun control, and makes some good arguments.  I'd be cautious sharing his stuff directly, since Jim can be a bit acerbic at times, but he has a lot of good talking points.

With the ones that are prone to TL;DR, the best way to avoid that is to post in dialog (or talk to them face to face), rather than with huge info-dumps.  Ask questions like 'Why do you think that?'  Sort out what points you have common ground on, and build off of that.

[Anteros]

I do with my friends what I do with most other people, I examine their arguments in order to understand their point of view, ask them how they came to hold a given opinion and present my own arguments as well as the thought process that led me to form a particular opinion, so they can understand my position.
Even if we don't end up agreeing, at least we understand each other and know where the other comes from.
We always try to be respectful even when our divergences are fundamental, like on matters of religion, and I always do research, because if something is worth arguing about, it's worth being understood as thoroughly as possible.

[Beguile's Mistress]

This is why I don't visit facebook or most social media sites and politics, religion and sexuality as well as child rearing are discussions I avoid.  Since it makes no difference what your own opinion and because some people just like to argue no matter what the entire process, even the most diverse and congenial venues, is non-productive.  I'd rather associate myself with groups in real life that have a chance to help people and change oppressive laws and attitudes so that is where my energies go.  For example, I volunteer with our Children's Hospital, two LGBT groups, our child care center at work and the resale shop attached to my church parish.  I also volunteer what ever clerical services I have the ability and time for on behalf of local politics. 

No fuss.  No muss.  No arguments.  Lots of good feelings and positive results.

[Lustful Bride]

The internet is usually the worst place to get good arguments and discussions. E seems to be the only one that doesn't obey that rule.

I personally listen to arguments and while I don't think the opposing faction of (Inset Topic Here) is wrong, I tend to think that they possibly don't have all the data, or usually that the data they have looked at is only in their favor. So I tend to try and be on the fence about things, perhaps they are right in 99% of encounters but there will always be the 1% where my side is right.

I also like to think that even if I or the person of the opposing faction is wrong, we should still respect one another. HAving differing oppinions is good (it keeps us from becoming The Borg) and so long as we respect one another and don't break down into insults or bigotry or youtube commenting, then the discussion has been productive since we have both learned something from the other even if we don't agree on it.

This is why I don't visit facebook or most social media sites and politics, religion and sexuality as well as child rearing are discussions I avoid.  Since it makes no difference what your own opinion and because some people just like to argue no matter what the entire process, even the most diverse and congenial venues, is non-productive.  I'd rather associate myself with groups in real life that have a chance to help people and change oppressive laws and attitudes so that is where my energies go.  For example, I volunteer with our Children's Hospital, two LGBT groups, our child care center at work and the resale shop attached to my church parish.  I also volunteer what ever clerical services I have the ability and time for on behalf of local politics. 

No fuss.  No muss.  No arguments.  Lots of good feelings and positive results.

*Applause ensues* ^_^

[Anteros]

This is why I don't visit facebook or most social media sites and politics, religion and sexuality as well as child rearing are discussions I avoid.  Since it makes no difference what your own opinion and because some people just like to argue no matter what the entire process, even the most diverse and congenial venues, is non-productive.  I'd rather associate myself with groups in real life that have a chance to help people and change oppressive laws and attitudes so that is where my energies go.  For example, I volunteer with our Children's Hospital, two LGBT groups, our child care center at work and the resale shop attached to my church parish.  I also volunteer what ever clerical services I have the ability and time for on behalf of local politics. 

No fuss.  No muss.  No arguments.  Lots of good feelings and positive results.

... Wow.
I hope I'm not being inappropriate but I find this so hot.
*Fans self*

[Far eyes]

I have a friend who i have had since i was 12 and he was 7 i believe there is a 5 year difference between us. We are mostly into the same things and in general we went trough a lot of the same kind of shit. The main difference between us, i am an atheist no i dont go around telling people they should renounce there fate, for the same reasons i dislike it when any religion dos that to me. The big difference between me and my best friend, he is religious in some aspect perhaps deeply so. I do say in some because its not something that runs his life but meany years ago we both came to a simple understanding.

We can both respect the others life choice without making an argument out of it, or having the need to evangelize the other. We it is simply a topic we do not discus, we know each others opinions on it and its fine we can just both move on with our lives it dos not mean we are not the best of friends it just means we do not agree on everything 100%. And 100% agreement is not why you make friendships, there is more to that then just that.

[Panthean]

This is why I don't visit facebook or most social media sites and politics, religion and sexuality as well as child rearing are discussions I avoid.  Since it makes no difference what your own opinion and because some people just like to argue no matter what the entire process, even the most diverse and congenial venues, is non-productive.  I'd rather associate myself with groups in real life that have a chance to help people and change oppressive laws and attitudes so that is where my energies go.  For example, I volunteer with our Children's Hospital, two LGBT groups, our child care center at work and the resale shop attached to my church parish.  I also volunteer what ever clerical services I have the ability and time for on behalf of local politics. 

No fuss.  No muss.  No arguments.  Lots of good feelings and positive results.

That's a noble cause. I'm more concerned with trying to change the views of my friends and sometimes my friends' friends because it's the social stance of the public--not the law--that makes life the most difficult for people in the transgender and LGB communities. Public opinion matters. The poor opinion of the public is the reason why laws protecting minority groups are necessary in the first place. I couldn't dream of changing public opinion, but if I could just change one person's stance to a more positive one, I could help the world in accomplishing this monumental task in some small way--I can switch one voice in one community from one that is anti-LGBTQ to one that is supportive and helpful.

With regards to the gun control issue, you might want to read some of Jim Wright's pieces on Stonekettle.  He's a gun owner (and veteran) who is pro-gun control, and makes some good arguments.  I'd be cautious sharing his stuff directly, since Jim can be a bit acerbic at times, but he has a lot of good talking points.

With the ones that are prone to TL;DR, the best way to avoid that is to post in dialog (or talk to them face to face), rather than with huge info-dumps.  Ask questions like 'Why do you think that?'  Sort out what points you have common ground on, and build off of that.

Bookmarked Stonekettle for later. Good point on the TL;DR. As an English major I learned to make complete arguments backed up with research. It's a little over some peoples' heads, sadly. But I've never been very conversational--socially awkward the whole time I was growing up, I didn't ever get much experience.



On the topic of respect and keeping friends: I've got that much down. I don't often see my friends disappearing from Facebook, even the ones with whom I have intense, heated exchanges with (mainly, the Trump fan who likes to post anti-liberal propaganda and straight up lies).

I was able to educate one of my other friends who opened up with anti-trans sentiments. And that's the kind of thing that I go for--that's the reason I continue to take these stances. He didn't agree with me completely in the end, but I was able to make him understand the other side a little better--I was able to make him see where the anti-LGBT laws where hurting people and even convinced him that emotion does have a real place in a debate.

A couple of my friends from the Christian fellowship I used to be a part of are trying to start up a religiously centered Youtube channel where they discuss matters such as abortion, pornography, homosexuality, transgender issues, and racial discrimination. They want to give themselves a voice with which they can share their beliefs. If they want to have a voice, then they should do their research. They should do well to be informed about the topic. I'm worried about them. I think they can do real harm if they become popular enough.

[Beguile's Mistress]

... Wow.
I hope I'm not being inappropriate but I find this so hot.
*Fans self*

I never had a response like that before but I like it.  Thank you. :-)

That's a noble cause. I'm more concerned with trying to change the views of my friends and sometimes my friends' friends because it's the social stance of the public--not the law--that makes life the most difficult for people in the transgender and LGB communities. Public opinion matters. The poor opinion of the public is the reason why laws protecting minority groups are necessary in the first place. I couldn't dream of changing public opinion, but if I could just change one person's stance to a more positive one, I could help the world in accomplishing this monumental task in some small way--I can switch one voice in one community from one that is anti-LGBTQ to one that is supportive and helpful.

Opinions do matter a lot but unless the discussion can be kept civil and enlightening it is counter productive in my opinion.  I have seldom be able to get a person who has already made up their mind and is firmly entrenched in their own point of view to even consider there might be another way to look at things.  Even some people who consider themselves open-minded, accepting and diverse have prejudices that work against the causes they think they stand for.  I don't have a lot of time to work through all of that so I do what I can.  I do try to talk to people who are willing to listen, discuss and tell me how they feel and why.  I know I'm not 100% right 100% of the time so I'm willing to learn as well.  The thing is, though, that a lot of the people who disagree with me aren't able to articulate their position or just don't want to. 

[Oniya]

But I've never been very conversational--socially awkward the whole time I was growing up, I didn't ever get much experience.

Something I vaguely remember from college is a technique called the 'Socratic method'.  (Pretty sure that's the right name, anyways.)  The basic idea is that you ask them questions about their stance and point out contradictions - such as countering the argument that transgenders should use the bathroom 'they were born to use' with the awkward reality of a trans-male model entering the ladies room (as he would have to under the North Carolina law).  Or finding out if the person who is averse to gun control will agree that a person with a history of paranoid delusions might not be the best person to be running around with a gun.

[Panthean]

Something I vaguely remember from college is a technique called the 'Socratic method'.  (Pretty sure that's the right name, anyways.)  The basic idea is that you ask them questions about their stance and point out contradictions - such as countering the argument that transgenders should use the bathroom 'they were born to use' with the awkward reality of a trans-male model entering the ladies room (as he would have to under the North Carolina law).  Or finding out if the person who is averse to gun control will agree that a person with a history of paranoid delusions might not be the best person to be running around with a gun.

I do say that. And to be blunt, they're too stupid to understand what I'm saying.

[Lustful Bride]

I do say that. And to be blunt, they're too stupid to understand what I'm saying.

Careful there, abit of stereotyping.

Even if most of a certain group are idiots (and I will admit at least 40% of gun owners are indeed idiots who should be banned from even looking at a firearm) doesn't mean that all of them are idiots or too stupid to understand.

Its always the possibility that they aren't good at expressing themselves or are just terrible at having arguments or discussion. I stutter like hell when I try and speak in real life and I get too nervous to even open my mouth when im talking to more than two people, but I have a much easier time typing the words out.

[Far eyes]

I do say that. And to be blunt, they're too stupid to understand what I'm saying.

See it really dos not matter what your stance is, if you present it in that voice with that in the back of your mind. It will always sound like you are Methuselah coming down from the mountain, bringing wisdom and enlightenment to the unwashed masses.

[Panthean]

Careful there, abit of stereotyping.

Even if most of a certain group are idiots (and I will admit at least 40% of gun owners are indeed idiots who should be banned from even looking at a firearm) doesn't mean that all of them are idiots or too stupid to understand.

Its always the possibility that they aren't good at expressing themselves or are just terrible at having arguments or discussion. I stutter like hell when I try and speak in real life and I get too nervous to even open my mouth when im talking to more than two people, but I have a much easier time typing the words out.

I'm not stereotyping anyone. I'm talking about specific people. If I respond to a post that says "I don't want to have to explain to my daughter why a man is in the restroom with her" with "A law requiring people to use the bathroom of their birth sex would cause transgender men who look very very masculine to be in the restroom with your daughter," and then they say "No it wouldn't, because they wouldn't be allowed in that restroom," that is pretty ignorant. Their worldview is so biased and uneducated that they cannot even comprehend the existence of transgender men and women who look like men and women. I don't believe that it's because they just aren't good at expressing themselves, I believe it's because they're ignorant.

See it really dos not matter what your stance is, if you present it in that voice with that in the back of your mind. It will always sound like you are Methuselah coming down from the mountain, bringing wisdom and enlightenment to the unwashed masses.

And I understand that. But I can see ignorance and it is what it is, there's no getting around that. Agreeing with these anti-trans bathroom laws because you don't know how to explain transgender identity to your child, and because you're afraid that that somehow endangers them is the definition of ignorance--it's the definition of transphobia. Some of these people are ignorant transphobes and they want to present their uneducated opinions as fact. In doing so, their voice becomes dangerous. And in doing so, they invite counter-argument, they invite debate. If they don't want to be told how wrong they are, then they should watch more carefully what they say. And I will respond--I will call out their ignorance as I see it, because I believe it is dangerous. They have every right to say what they say, but if they do, then they should be openly refuted, especially when they don't understand the damage they can be doing.



And I wasn't referring to the topic of gun control with my previous comment. Sorry for the confusion.

When it comes to guns, I would disagree with you on the 40% figure. I don't think legal gun owners are idiots, I think that many of them know exactly what's going on with guns. They simply don't want to lose the right to private sale of firearms on account of irresponsible sellers. I don't agree with their position, but I do see the logic behind it. Personally, I think that the problem with guns isn't ownership but improper sales. The way private sales and auctions are run allow many firearms to fall into the hands of unregistered people who are either (and much more likely) mentally ill/suicidal or  (slightly less likely) homicidal... or both. It's the lack of proper registration and background checks that are the problem, not guns in-and-of-themselves, and the statistics support this. Something between one-half and two-thirds of all gun deaths in the US are suicides not related to terrorism or mass shootings, and between one-quarter and one-third are homicides, not including mass shootings, gang violence, police brutality or terrorism.

Opinions do matter a lot... 

Just saying to you that I am reading what you're saying. I'm just mostly nodding along without much in a way of response.

[Panthean]

I would also like to point out, on the topic of viewing those who take up the asinine cause against the trans community, I am far from the only one who comes from the position that thinks the other side less intelligent. The difference is they often take a more direct approach in telling me that I'm stupid. For example, my Trump-fan friend who once repeatedly told me how I've been brainwashed by the lies of the liberal media. For another, a friend of a friend who took those gloves off and told me I wasn't intelligent enough to understand his side of the argument (this being the one who would rather explain why the masculine transgender man is with his daughter in the bathroom than a feminine transgender woman)... meanwhile, I had to explain to him that it is spelled "rough" not "ruff."

So in defense of my earlier statements, I don't open with the presumption that the other side is stupid. But if someone tries to tell me I'm stupid, I do attempt to demonstrate to them how stupid their arguments are, and more importantly, why they're wrong and what damage they're doing.

[Beguile's Mistress]

To quote Judge Judy:  "Beauty fades.  Stupid lasts forever."  Some people are simply a lost cause.

[Panthean]

To quote Judge Judy:  "Beauty fades.  Stupid lasts forever."  Some people are simply a lost cause.

Oooh, that's harsh. They're my friends, mostly, though! I don't want to give up on them so easily... at the very least I don't want them to be contributing to the poor mental health of anyone.

[Beguile's Mistress]

If you can at least get them to listen and possibly consider, even if you can't convince them, they aren't stupid.  I'd say they're misguided. :-)

[Panthean]

If you can at least get them to listen and possibly consider, even if you can't convince them, they aren't stupid.  I'd say they're misguided. :-)

One can only hope.

[RedRose]

I've come to avoid loaded topics with people who can't handle it. Sometimes also, you have discussed a few times and then you agree to disagree. I've lost so-called friends during such discussions, too.

[Lustful Bride]

To quote Judge Judy:  "Beauty fades.  Stupid lasts forever."  Some people are simply a lost cause.

We will find a cure for blindness before we cure stupidity. But that's the problem, you can't cure stupid, stupid is forever.

If you can at least get them to listen and possibly consider, even if you can't convince them, they aren't stupid.  I'd say they're misguided. :-)

Or too Headstrong for their own good.

[Far eyes]

See what you describe is not a discussion its people scouting opinions at the constructed buggy-men of what there opinions are built up around.

Funny enough i actually described that law in the same fashion, as it seems to have the only function of "But think of the children" and i do use that quote with some amount of sarcasm. I do not frequent face book, for some of the reasons i do not use twitter its a bad form of communication that by its nature is reactionary and almost by its very construction designed encourage simplistic extreme statements. Really the only use twitter seems to have is as a billboard for people with a small amount of fame of any kind and an audience "Video delayed because XY" Twitter has hit its maximum usefulness   

Mark Twain was by no stretch of the imagination a perfect man but a quote from him i do love is “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

What you describe is not an exchange of ideas, or an environment ware exchange and examination of ideas sounds plausible. What you are describing is a group of people scouting at each other in an us vs them mentality. That changes things, it by its very nature is a hostile environment. In short nobody there will change "sides" because doing to even slightly is a loss. Its an unfortunate consequence of the environment but consider that you might be wasting valuable time, time in witch you could be doing other better things what ever that is for you. Because you would never budge on any of your opinions, why do you think they would budge on any of theirs in that kind of environment. And do understand this is not about right vs wrong or the particular argument happening, it could be about anything. 

In fact an environment like that tends to lead to the extreams being the loudest

[Blythe]

So the question I pose to you here on Elliquiy is this: When it comes to discussions on topics such as these with the people you know who disagree with you, how do you fare? How do you start and get involved with these discussions and how do you make your point without losing your friends? And... I suppose I'm also curious what kind of things your friends say on these matters that gets you to respond? What also, are the things they say that irk or offend you?

Depends on how good of a friend they are. Depends on whether or not they can drop the subject with me when I ask them to. Depends on whether or not I think I can understand their viewpoints, even if I don't agree with those viewpoints (For example--I fare well with mildly religious types and climate change deniers as friends....but I fare badly with transphobes and highly conservative Christians, and I often end up cutting them out of my social circles).

From time to time, I have lost friends over this sort of thing. I'm not sure I consider that a bad thing. It doesn't happen often, but its happened.

I guess it comes down to this: do I think there is still a dialogue I can have? Not an argument, but a proper dialogue? If yes, I'll work to keep those lines of communication open if I see hope for change. If I don't see a chance for that, I cut my losses and move on, even if it saddens me to do so.

The best tool I have in my arsenal for not losing friends? Patience.

Patience, patience, and more patience.  -_-

[Lustful Bride]

. And do understand this is not about right vs wrong or the particular argument happening, it could be about anything. 

In fact an environment like that tends to lead to the extreams being the loudest

I agree 110% on this.

[Lustful Bride]

From time to time, I have lost friends over this sort of thing. I'm not sure I consider that a bad thing. It doesn't happen often, but its happened.

I guess it comes down to this: do I think there is still a dialogue I can have? Not an argument, but a proper dialogue? If yes, I'll work to keep those lines of communication open if I see hope for change. If I don't see a chance for that, I cut my losses and move on, even if it saddens me to do so.

The best tool I have in my arsenal for not losing friends? Patience.

Patience, patience, and more patience.  -_-

Meh, If they would not accept you for who you are, then what is the point of being friends with them?

My boyfriend since  high school is an atheist and leans to the left while I am Christian and lean to the right. Hes a pacifist (Most of the time) while I am more ready to push the button.

We go opposite sides on many things but we have still worked it all out and are still stuck with puppy love even after years together.

People must accept you for who you are, no matter what you are.