Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich

[Scribbles]

I would have ripped at anything not bolted down, and started to assault them as hard and as fast as I could. Disarm them in some way, use clothing to tie them up, anything to keep them off of that soldier.

You're braver than me... I'm not sure what I would have done in the situation. I can't believe someone had the strength to sit and pray by the soldier.

[SweetSerenade]

You're braver than me... I'm not sure what I would have done in the situation. I can't believe someone had the strength to sit and pray by the soldier.

I would do it for anyone, I've done it before. A situation where someone was being assaulted, and I stepped up to defend them. I defend the weak, because it seems no one else will do it. I'm not saying the soldier was weak, but he was in a situation where he couldn't defend himself. I just have this image in my head of rushing into a local shop going "hey I'm stealing your chair" to rush outside and beat the ever living hell out of those two men.

Also, you are right that woman was brave. To pray over someone, not knowing of caring of what their faith may have been - hoping and praying that their soul will have comfort. That is brave. I would have done it, after beating the crap out of those two men. I don't care about physical harm to myself, I've been stabbed and cut before... it doesn't bother me. The only thing on my mind at that point would be saving that soldier, or at least minimizing his injuries so that he might be able to survive and go to the hospital.

[Scribbles]

I just have this image in my head of rushing into a local shop going "hey I'm stealing your chair" to rush outside and beat the ever living hell out of those two men.

SweetSerenade, you’re awful, I’m keeping my mood all sombre and respectful only for you to paint such a giggle-worthy image!

Also, you are right that woman was brave. To pray over someone, not knowing of caring of what their faith may have been - hoping and praying that their soul will have comfort. That is brave. I would have done it, after beating the crap out of those two men. I don't care about physical harm to myself, I've been stabbed and cut before... it doesn't bother me. The only thing on my mind at that point would be saving that soldier, or at least minimizing his injuries so that he might be able to survive and go to the hospital.

Sadly, I think saving him would have been impossible, from what I’ve read the killers pretty much went straight for the jugular after knocking him with the car…

[Kythia]

Are we really suggesting that the (technically alleged) perpetrators in this case had some deep connection or devotion to Iraq or Afghanistan in and of themselves?

I think it was pretty clear what he was alluding to in the video; the idea of a unified Islam, that an attack on one Muslim is an attack on all, that has become become fairly prevalent in a post-9/11 world. When he's talking about "our lands" he's talking about supposedly Islamic lands and the connection is he himself being a Muslim as opposed to him being connected to Iraq and Afghanistan beyond that.

The reason I pick it up is that it's pretty much a ludicrous idea. The first is in what other circumstances do we view a country as being a religion's lands? Do Catholics view Spain, Italy, Bolivia etc as "their" lands on account of being majority Catholic? Do Protestants do the same with Scandinavia? Hindu's Nepal and India? The only possible exception is Judaism and Isreal... but that's as much an ethnicity position as a religious one. The second is that even if we do view countries as being the "land" of the predominant religion it's still ludicrous to suggest this then gives justification. The perpetrators in this case had no connection with "their lands" beyond sharing a religion with many of the inhabitants. If a British Buddhist decided to attack people from Bangladesh would we see it as solid reasoning to point out the oppression of Buddhists in Bangladesh (while condemning the act itself)? Would we do the same for any other religion? Did we see the Russian/Georgian conflict as being a battle between Russian and Georgian Orthodoxy? Did we see the US interventions in South America as being a Protestant (which is the single largest religious block in the US) vs Catholic conflict.

I could perhaps see Scribbles point if the perpetrators had some connection to Iraq and Afghanistan beyond religion. Then they may well actually be talking about "their lands" (albeit this would still not offer justification). This group aren't and unlike Scribbles I can certainly fault his reasoning.

Islam actually has a long tradition of thinking of its religion's lands differently to other religions.  It's enshrined in Sharia, for example and the notion of Ummah is a central tenet of the faith.  While it may be foreign to Christian eyes, the notion that an attack on a Muslim state is an attack on Islam qua Islam is hardly new.

Here is some more info.

[Dashenka]

Why are we bringing up the islam and christianity?

Religion has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this 'attack'. These two African guys are completely delusional and are given the islam a bad (or worse if you want) name.

In the aftermath of the the attack, several mosques throughout the country have been attacked and vandalized because 'we' all assumed it has to be the islam behind it. Luckily, most islamic organizations, immediately stated that this attack has NOTHING to do with islamic believes, something western people or religions never did. When it's a white person killing a black person or a muslim there is nobody in the world condemning it, yet that is exactly what the islamic people do.

Also to add to Kythia's remark...


The Islam is the ONLY religion in the world that acknowledges other religions and accepts them, another thing Christianity never did.
I'm frankly sick and tired of people always coming up with muslims and islam after stuff like this. Do the same with your 'own' religion or keep quiet really.

[Scribbles]

Dashenka,

I don't think anyone was implying that this was somehow the fault of Islam, unless I missed a comment...

I'm sure most understand that this is simply another case of fanaticism, the fact that so many recognized Islamic churches and groups have condemned the act only reinforces this notion.

[Healergirl]

Why are we bringing up the islam and christianity?

Religion has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this 'attack'. These two African guys are completely delusional and are given the islam a bad (or worse if you want) name.

Because the attackers loudly and repeatedly claimed they were defending Islam as a justification for their actions.

In the aftermath of the the attack, several mosques throughout the country have been attacked and vandalized because 'we' all assumed it has to be the islam behind it.

Which is precisely the result the attackers  wanted, attacks on the Muslim community to radicalize said community.

Why are we bringing up the islam and christianity?

Religion has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this 'attack'. These two African guys are completely delusional and are given the islam a bad (or worse if you want) name.

Again,  precisely the result they wanted.

When it's a white person killing a black person or a muslim there is nobody in the world condemning it, yet that is exactly what the islamic people do.

Pointless hyperbole and factually incorrect, as even a casual web search will reveal.  The Nation?  Mother Jones?  Any number of easily found cites to refute the statement that there is no condemnation of the behavior.

The Islam is the ONLY religion in the world that acknowledges other religions and accepts them, another thing Christianity never did.
I'm frankly sick and tired of people always coming up with muslims and islam after stuff like this. Do the same with your 'own' religion or keep quiet really.

One of Islams shining bright spots in the past.  A doctrine honored far more in the breach than in the practice these days.  And when you look closely at the tolerance of the past, it is only relative, it would certainly not pass UN standards of Human Rights muster.

Islam is an issue because these nutjobs made it an issue.  If you want others to keep quiet about Islam, then the House Of Peace will need to do a much better job of internal policing to keep the radicals under a tight rein.  Otherwise, they will attract a great deal of energetic attention from the House of War.  The Islamic term for everybody not of Islam, not a Christian invention.

[Dashenka]

I know that Scribbles and I'm not saying that anybody blames the Islam, still in a few posts it is mentioned. And it's not just with this incident, same thing in Boston, most people automatically presumes the islam was involved.

But maybe I didn't explain myself clear enough. :)


@Healergirl, so when somebody is screaming something after he murdered somebody, you'll think: Hmm yes the guy has a point? It's the only way to link a claim like that to anything serious. When I see two black guys waving machete's around screaming Allah Akbar, I personally will think they are utter nutjobs, because I know this has nothing to with the islam.

By giving the islam a bad name, which is what has happened, mostly because of right wing extremists, we'll only help them terrorists realize their point in radicalizing the islamic people. These people (the killers in this case) do more damage to the islam than they do good and right wing political parties will gladly help and jump on the hate train.

[Healergirl]

Dashenka,

No I will not, but many will,  and that was the goal they wanted to achieve - as I am sure you well know. 

[Dashenka]

Which is exactly my point. :)

[Silk]

The Islam is the ONLY religion in the world that acknowledges other religions and accepts them, another thing Christianity never did.
I'm frankly sick and tired of people always coming up with muslims and islam after stuff like this. Do the same with your 'own' religion or keep quiet really.

Think you'll find that Bhuddism doesn't only teach tolerance for other religions, but teaches to celebrate other religious holidays as if they were your own as well. So I'll stress you to not make assumptions like that. There is likely other religions that do not fall under the "big 3" that also do the same.

[Kythia]

Yeah, Sikhism springs to mind as well.

[Scribbles]

Dashenka,

My mistake...

They may have felt a connection to Islam (which is why it was mentioned, I believe) but I think their primary motivation was the war they perceive themselves to be fighting in. Either way, neither excuses their actions, I've never been a fan of blaming the inspiration or motivation for a killing.

As for the desecration of Mosques and such, I can't believe I've heard nothing of it yet in the news. I hope that there are people speaking out against this, it's important that we don't allow the masses to confuse who the real enemy is, the fanatics... Sometimes on both sides.

Yeah, Sikhism springs to mind as well.

Best religious name ever! I'm going to go look that up now...

[Silk]

Dashenka,

My mistake...

They may have felt a connection to Islam (which is why it was mentioned, I believe) but I think their primary motivation was the war they perceive themselves to be fighting in. Either way, neither excuses their actions, I've never been a fan of blaming the inspiration or motivation for a killing.

As for the desecration of Mosques and such, I can't believe I've heard nothing of it yet in the news. I hope that there are people speaking out against this, it's important that we don't allow the masses to confuse who the real enemy is, the fanatics... Sometimes on both sides.

Best religious name ever! I'm going to go look that up now...

There was quite alot about it in regards to people speaking out against the EDL revenge strike as they called them. They wern't specific in where they attacked but it was defently a thing that people were telling the EDL to buck up their ideas

Edit: Example here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bnp-and-edl-accused-of-attempt-to-fuel-racial-hatred-after-woolwich-terror-attack-8631612.html

[Dashenka]

I know some people speak up against the EDL but my girlfriend (hopefully soon to be wife) is a muslim and she occasionally wears a scarf and even while I do not (because I am not a muslim) people in the bus, train or whatever still look at us as if we could draw out a kalashnikov at any given moment and shoot them on sight. If we fly to our family in Russia, we always get stopped and checked at customs if she wears the scarf. When she doesn't wear it, no problems.

There is such a hype going on that the islam and muslims are dangerous that the vast majority of them, get a bad name and I don't believe that bad name is only to blame because of themselves but also by political organizations like the EDL.

We've banned slavery because we think everybody is equal, the Apartheid fought for equality, gay people fight for equality but at the same time, muslims are not treated equal by a still growing part of the world population and I agree that incidents like this and in Boston and all the bombs in different countries and 9/11 don't really help, but they have given the islam a violent name it doesn't deserve.

People on this website are generally well educated and have the ability to use their brains so you know better but a lot of people don't and that is what worries me. My earlier messages may not have been perfectly clear and a bit angry and I apologize for that. It just bothers me that it has to be this way.

[Silk]

So do most teenagers, so do most black people, so do most dad's who take their kids to the park/school, So do people from the Isle of Wight when we go to mainland England (Were all a bunch of imbred hicks apparently) So do Goths/Punks. All I'm saying is that negative public perception is hardly a islamic only thing.