Vote No Evil 2012

[Callie Del Noire]

Actually a fair number of Americans are part of the international 1%.

In order to be part of the top 1% of all earners in the world, you need to make . . . . . $35,000.00 a year.

The problem with the Occupy kids is that they lack perspective. They don't understand the difference between poverty and not poverty. They think they are poor if they can't buy a latte in Starbucks and they think they are hungry if their stomachs are growling.

Or like me they have to decided between gas, books, health insurance and food. I've had to go hat in hand to family two times because of issues with school. I have spent THREE years looking for a job in a field that used to be HUGE. I can't pay for heath insurance regularly and with my personal issues that's a problem yet I'm TOO healthy for medicare/caid/assistance. I am lucky that I like in a Tricare Prime zone and only have to cough up 300 bucks to get coverage and have a hospital nearby. What would I do if I lived with my folks where TC Prime isn't available.

My savings plan in the Navy lost NINETY PERCENT of it's value in a six week period because of the massive FRAUD that Wall Street CONTINUES to hide and deny. They passed high risk mortgage bonds they KNEW were bad.. pushed for legistlation to let them get less and less oversight and accountabilty..while pissing on their customers and clients, aside from the 'BIG BOYS'.

Deregulation is a powerword these days. I've seen industries that were strong and vital go tits up overnight because of ILL considered actions. NAFTA? It RUINED the economy of my home state... and when the inevitable ban on tabacco comes around I'm quite sure we'll see even more problems.

American Business Leadership is a joke. They don't plan anymore. It's not 'what we will have in place in 10 years.. it's how much I can make NEXT Quarter.'.

If we don't pull our business leadership's heads out of their collective ASSES.. in 10 to 20 years those third world nations providing our labor will be cutting us out of the process. China is already moving up and taking more and more out of the mix. And economically they are growing while we're producing less and less and the people in charge are cooking the books to ensure their plans are covered and their golden parachutes are in place.

[Oniya]

Or like me, and have had to decide between paying bills and eating - No health insurance, house foreclosed on, having to depend on the good graces of my family to have a roof over my head, and I'll still have collectors breathing down my neck.  There are no jobs that offer benefits - or even full time if they can avoid it.  The contract that I was working on hasn't terminated, but the hours have been down-sized, so guess what?  I can't claim unemployment, because my 'job' still exists - I just don't have anything to do, and I don't get paid unless they send me something to work on.

The Occupy movement isn't just 'kids'.  They aren't fighting for the right to a night at the opera.  They're fighting because we have more vacant houses due to foreclosures than we have homeless families. 

[Etah dna Evol]

Or like me they have to decided between gas, books, health insurance and food. I've had to go hat in hand to family two times because of issues with school.

Believe me, I'm in the same boat as you

I am lucky that I like in a Tricare Prime zone and only have to cough up 300 bucks to get coverage and have a hospital nearby. What would I do if I lived with my folks where TC Prime isn't available.

Tricare Remote

I understand your concerns and they are legitimate. But you're only seeing one side of the picture. Deregulation is an issue, but so is over regulation. It's been proven that businesses have been trained to make risky investments because if they fuck up, they can just expect another government bail out.

Our problem with outsourcing is because we have a toxic business environment here in America. Our Capital Gains (twice taxed money) is one of the highest in the world and discourages investments, we over-regulate factories (building and purchasing of equipment) and we over regulate and over tax other areas of business as well. We have simply made outsourcing profitable and cost saving while we have turned Americans from inventors, producers and hard workers into self-entitled whiners.

Americans in general don't feel they should have to do anything to be successful. They want it handed to them. Corruption exists everywhere and always has, America has always prospered in spite of, or sometimes because of, corruption. What will be the death of Americas exceptional place in the world and history, is sheer laziness.

Or like me, and have had to decide between paying bills and eating - No health insurance, house foreclosed on, having to depend on the good graces of my family to have a roof over my head, and I'll still have collectors breathing down my neck.  There are no jobs that offer benefits - or even full time if they can avoid it.  The contract that I was working on hasn't terminated, but the hours have been down-sized, so guess what?  I can't claim unemployment, because my 'job' still exists - I just don't have anything to do, and I don't get paid unless they send me something to work on.

The Occupy movement isn't just 'kids'.  They aren't fighting for the right to a night at the opera.  They're fighting because we have more vacant houses due to foreclosures than we have homeless families. 

Like I said, there is merit to the argument of corruption in American business and politics. But there is also an element of blame. We as a country no longer take responsibility for ourselves, all the things that happen to us become someone elses fault. This is the new America. I think that it is likely that bad or risky decisions had a hand in the events that led to your current crisis.

I also wonder if you go unemployed because you are too prideful to be "under employed." That is part of Americans current attitude of entitlement. You didn't buy a house you couldn't afford, the mean man took it from you (cause you couldn't/didn't pay your mortgage). You aren't employed because you are under qualified or because you are unwilling to work at McDonald's to pay your bills, it's the job market. etc.

I am not speaking about you personally because I have no idea who you are. Your circumstances may be totally different, but I expect they are not.

I also want to mention that the "Occupy Movement" is a tool for the Democrats who created many of the conditions that led to the slowdown in the job market. If the world is a stage, than the Occupy Movement are puppets and the Democrats, their puppet masters (the situation is similar between the Republican Party and the "Tea Party," but in that situation the "Tea Party" is sometimes the puppet master and the Republicans the puppet)

[Oniya]

I also wonder if you go unemployed because you are too prideful to be "under employed." That is part of Americans current attitude of entitlement. You didn't buy a house you couldn't afford, the mean man took it from you (cause you couldn't/didn't pay your mortgage). You aren't employed because you are under qualified or because you are unwilling to work at McDonald's to pay your bills, it's the job market. etc.

I am not speaking about you personally because I have no idea who you are. Your circumstances may be totally different, but I expect they are not.

Actually, at the time that we bought our house, we could afford the mortgage, and rather easily - until the contract dried up.  We were even paying extra on our principle every month - how about that!?  Mr. Oniya has applied at everything from burger-flipping to retail management, and has found that he's either 'overqualified', or that the paycheck would be completely (if not more than completely) eaten up by gas.  There was one job he had to quit because he realized he was actually paying (in gas costs) to work.  Work in my field is non-existent in the rural area we're in, not to mention that we had one car, a school-aged child, and (until a week ago) a roommate who had numerous doctor and legal appointments to keep for a Worker's Compensation case.  In the new place, I'm within walking distance of a hospital, where I hope to get clerical work, and we've got several retail centers that won't eat up the gas budget, whether he's working stockroom or management.

[Callie Del Noire]

Our problem with outsourcing is because we have a toxic business environment here in America. Our Capital Gains (twice taxed money) is one of the highest in the world and discourages investments, we over-regulate factories (building and purchasing of equipment) and we over regulate and over tax other areas of business as well. We have simply made outsourcing profitable and cost saving while we have turned Americans from inventors, producers and hard workers into self-entitled whiners.

Americans in general don't feel they should have to do anything to be successful. They want it handed to them. Corruption exists everywhere and always has, America has always prospered in spite of, or sometimes because of, corruption. What will be the death of Americas exceptional place in the world and history, is sheer laziness.

Like I said, there is merit to the argument of corruption in American business and politics. But there is also an element of blame. We as a country no longer take responsibility for ourselves, all the things that happen to us become someone elses fault. This is the new America. I think that it is likely that bad or risky decisions had a hand in the events that led to your current crisis.

I also wonder if you go unemployed because you are too prideful to be "under employed." That is part of Americans current attitude of entitlement. You didn't buy a house you couldn't afford, the mean man took it from you (cause you couldn't/didn't pay your mortgage). You aren't employed because you are under qualified or because you are unwilling to work at McDonald's to pay your bills, it's the job market. etc.

I am not speaking about you personally because I have no idea who you are. Your circumstances may be totally different, but I expect they are not.

I also want to mention that the "Occupy Movement" is a tool for the Democrats who created many of the conditions that led to the slowdown in the job market. If the world is a stage, than the Occupy Movement are puppets and the Democrats, their puppet masters (the situation is similar between the Republican Party and the "Tea Party," but in that situation the "Tea Party" is sometimes the puppet master and the Republicans the puppet)

Okay..let's see..

The tea party is a puppet.. but it's not the GOP holding the strings but backers like the Koch Brothers doing it. I think it's a case of the movement getting hijacked by their cash.

As for the workers being described as 'self-entitled whiners' I take umbrage at that. We have a corporate tax system in place that is too high, unless you're a company with connections in place that lets you get tax breaks for hiding cash overseas, outsourcing, and moving out of country. Example.. GE moved 20,000 jobs out of the country in 2009, and made a net payment of -3.9 BILLION in taxes in 2010.. yes, they got a tax CREDIT for the year.  AGAIN. Creative accounting, convenient bank loopholes and massive cronyism at work.

Let's take a look at the progression in pay between the average worker and average exec. Most telling is the HUGE increase in pay for executives while there is barely increase on the worker side.

Me? I think if we're going to let companies hide their case and not pay their dues.. why not make it so that they do it to the BENEFIT of the domestic economy. Give breaks for R&D, 'insourcing' jobs and such into the country rather than outsourcing, crediting redevelopment and expanding your domestic infrastructure. Make it profitable to invest in the god damn country again. And there is plenty of manufacturing methods that can make production here in the US profitable, lean management techniques smaller shipping radius and such have shown that anyone willing to work new methods can not only profit but thrive in the current market.

Too much of the business leadership in the country are followers of Gordon Gecko's 'greed is good' school of stupidity. The surge to 'deregulate' has hurt us in many ways. You got people running office saying that OSHA, the Department of Labor and other regulatory agencies need to be done away with. Looking over the last decade, I say no.

Personally I think the role of government in business is to provide a foundation and set of rules on what can and can't be done in business.  Regulation isn't bad automatically. If we hadn't repealed the Glass-Stegall act, we might not have gone as long with those toxic mortgage bonds bouncing around the Wall Street regions. Which was a fraud...and yet no one has been prosecuted yet.

Here is an interesting take on the 'high end' corporate taxes that get paid. (or not)http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/ad-lib/2011/apr/10/tax-evaders-wall-shame/

As for capital gains.. I think that we should return to the level Ronnie Reagan had them at. Clearly the ultra-rich are the only ones who aren't hurting.. why not tax them a little? We're not not taxing them at the rate that .. oh say the English are doing it. Mitt Romney is paying what.. 12% whereas folks in his tax range in the UK would have to work longer/harder to not pay much much higher.

[Etah dna Evol]

Actually, . . . . .

Like I said, I am not claiming intimate knowledge of your personal life story. But most of what you have said (house, job etc.) I have heard before and many times there has been a lack of personal responsibility involved.

Okay..let's see..

I think it's a case of the movement getting hijacked by their cash.

I agree.

AGAIN. Creative accounting, convenient bank loopholes and massive cronyism at work.

Part of this issue is a tax code whose pages number in the 10's of thousands. Only large corporations and the very wealthy can afford professionals that can interpret and exploit loopholes in the tax code.

Let's take a look at the progression in pay between the average worker and average exec. Most telling is the HUGE increase in pay for executives while there is barely increase on the worker side.

This is an issue, but I don't feel it is an issue government regulation can or should address.

Give breaks for R&D, 'insourcing' jobs and such into the country rather than outsourcing, crediting redevelopment and expanding your domestic infrastructure. Make it profitable to invest in the god damn country again.

Fuck yes! But first we need politicians to write and propose these laws that aren't in the pocket of the multinationals.

Personally I think the role of government in business is to provide a foundation and set of rules on what can and can't be done in business.  Regulation isn't bad automatically.

I agree. I would go so far as to say under-regulation would be a bad thing, the mortgage bubble speaks to that. But over-regulation can be worse. We have to find a happy middle ground.

Clearly the ultra-rich are the only ones who aren't hurting.. why not tax them a little? We're not not taxing them at the rate that .. oh say the English are doing it.

Because taxing investments heavily, simply discourages investments. Why would I keep my money in the United States if it is that countries intention of raping my profit margin. I can simply shift my money overseas, taking along with it jobs Americans desperately need.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Presumably said corporations are run by a confederacy of Illuminati officials and ambassadors from the Lizard People? :P

No.  A few Old World wealthy families who leveraged discipline, family loyalties, compound interest and a fair amount of luck.

[Oniya]

Like I said, I am not claiming intimate knowledge of your personal life story. But most of what you have said (house, job etc.) I have heard before and many times there has been a lack of personal responsibility involved.

No, but you followed that statement up with

Your circumstances may be totally different, but I expect they are not.

You were fine up until the 'but'.  I regret to inform you that I don't live down to your 'expectations.'

[gaggedLouise]

Corruption exists everywhere and always has, America has always prospered in spite of, or sometimes because of, corruption

(my italics)

Certainly throws some light on why the Mob has prospered in the U.S. for a hundred years and why it has tended to become tightly involved with business on all levels - robbing banks and shops long since became secondary to actually cooperating with them behind the scene and making oneself indispensable to them, in the way the crooks and their cronies want these businesses to function. As Lucky Luciano put it, speaking of the final years of his U.S. prison term in the mid-forties: "We hadda get our business /the Mob/ in order now that the end of the war was coming into view: soon the country would be switching back to peacetime economy and us guys needed to be right back  in place when that was happening, so it'd all function properly."


No, I am not surprised some people view organized crime and wheelie-dealing as more accountable and easier to live with than any aspirations to a fair social contract.

[Etah dna Evol]

America was founded by mobs. Samuel Adam's Son's of Liberty were pretty much the colonial equivalent of a biker gang. Most people don't realize that the Sons of Liberty provoked the Boston Massacre. But corruption is certainly not America's sole domain. Corruption has been everywhere, in every age, the only question is the degree of influence the country has. America has more influence than nearly every country on the planet and its an easy target for charges of corruption, that are ultimately hypocritical.

[Callie Del Noire]

America was founded by mobs. Samuel Adam's Son's of Liberty were pretty much the colonial equivalent of a biker gang. Most people don't realize that the Sons of Liberty provoked the Boston Massacre. But corruption is certainly not America's sole domain. Corruption has been everywhere, in every age, the only question is the degree of influence the country has. America has more influence than nearly every country on the planet and its an easy target for charges of corruption, that are ultimately hypocritical.

So, you're saying we should simply roll over and bare our collective belly to the world because it's ALWAYS been that way?

[gaggedLouise]

So, you're saying we should simply roll over and bare our collective belly to the world because it's ALWAYS been that way?

Since the idea is that mobs and corruption exist (and flourish) everywhere as a fact of human nature, the corollary point seems to be that everyone should be grateful that America has become infested by mobs since it began. Even when they are not generally known and recognized as mobs: a parasite is the most successful when it manages to pass itself off as a natural part of its host creature.

But corruption, mob rule and I-scratch-your-back... aren't partricularly complicated inventions, so if they become more powerful in other countries, like Russia or China, and those countries rise high and eventually push the U.S. out of every corner - as Etah is saying is already happening - then who's got a right to complain about that anyway?

[gaggedLouise]

America was founded by mobs. Samuel Adam's Son's of Liberty were pretty much the colonial equivalent of a biker gang. Most people don't realize that the Sons of Liberty provoked the Boston Massacre.

I presume you meant to refer to the Boston Tea Party, not the 1770 shooting?

And there's some difference between a biker gang who are simply looting and killing to sustain their own lifestyle, or to keep up their inflow of drugs, cash and booze, and on the other hand a resistance movement engaging in selected acts of violence and obstruction against the authorities because they want to undermine the effective legitimacy of those ruling guys - not just write small leaflets saying the legitimacy and/or honesty of those leaders, the occupying power etc is in question. Occasionally those acts of resistance strike against businessmen and other locals who are trading with the authorities, but those people are not the primary target: if your own native guys, most of them, were the main butts of the struggle, the movement would soon lose its own backing among the local people.

[Etah dna Evol]

So, you're saying we should simply roll over and bare our collective belly to the world because it's ALWAYS been that way?

When you display an argument superficially similar to mine, but is easier to beat, that is called a straw man and that is what you are trying to set me up for.

words

I hate anthropological terms. I read SCOTUS rulings for kicks but I only have a very vague idea of what you just said.

I presume you meant to refer to the Boston Tea Party, not the 1770 shooting?

You presume incorrect. There is a pretty large corollary between the Occupy Movement and the Sons of Liberty. Today, a tactic Occupy types use is that they goad police until they can't fucking take it, so the Occupy kids can have their 30 second video clip of police using excessive force. That is basically what the Son's of Liberty (and others) did to British Troops and caused what we now know as the Boston Massacre. FYI If you google this later on, the Son's of Liberty are also called the Massachusetts Radicals.

[gaggedLouise]

I read SCOTUS rulings for kicks but I only have a very vague idea of what you just said.

Who do you think you're kidding?

[Callie Del Noire]

When you display an argument superficially similar to mine, but is easier to beat, that is called a straw man and that is what you are trying to set me up for.

I hate anthropological terms. I read SCOTUS rulings for kicks but I only have a very vague idea of what you just said.

You presume incorrect. There is a pretty large corollary between the Occupy Movement and the Sons of Liberty. Today, a tactic Occupy types use is that they goad police until they can't fucking take it, so the Occupy kids can have their 30 second video clip of police using excessive force. That is basically what the Son's of Liberty (and others) did to British Troops and caused what we now know as the Boston Massacre. FYI If you google this later on, the Son's of Liberty are also called the Massachusetts Radicals.

You seem to infer that we shouldn't try/care or try to change things. That was why I somewhat sarcastically posted what I did. If we don't inform ourselves, speak up and do our part, we assist the status quo.

[Oniya]

When you display an argument superficially similar to mine, but is easier to beat, that is called a straw man and that is what you are trying to set me up for.

I hate anthropological terms. I read SCOTUS rulings for kicks but I only have a very vague idea of what you just said.

You presume incorrect. There is a pretty large corollary between the Occupy Movement and the Sons of Liberty. Today, a tactic Occupy types use is that they goad police until they can't fucking take it, so the Occupy kids can have their 30 second video clip of police using excessive force. That is basically what the Son's of Liberty (and others) did to British Troops and caused what we now know as the Boston Massacre. FYI If you google this later on, the Son's of Liberty are also called the Massachusetts Radicals.

I'm not so certain that the Sons of Liberty as a united group were specifically involved in the Boston Massacre.  Reports are that it started with 'young men' throwing iced snowballs at the soldiers, and when the church bells started ringing, the grown men came out with sticks, stones, and clubs.  The description of the crowd goading (actually, threatening is a better word) the British soldiers until they were in fear of their lives and somebody (of unknown sympathies) let off a shot is accurate, though.

[Etah dna Evol]

Who do you think you're kidding?

Ad hominem's are a logical fallacy.

BTW What I meant was, you seem to use fancy language and esoteric terms to make yourself sound smarter, but they really just confuse your argument. I have no doubt you are intelligent, but if you want your ideas to come across better use clearer written text.

You seem to infer that we shouldn't try/care or try to change things. That was why I somewhat sarcastically posted what I did. If we don't inform ourselves, speak up and do our part, we assist the status quo.

I apologize, I misunderstood you. I am not saying we should accept corruptions existence because corruption has always existed. I am saying that to call the United States especially corrupt or more corrupt than it has been before is an unhelpful exaggeration. We cannot work on fixing actual corruption if we are chasing bogymen.

[OldSchoolGamer]

This is an issue, but I don't feel it is an issue government regulation can or should address.

Then it will be addressed in the streets.  America is already at the level of wealth disparity between the Haves and Have-nots that historically destabilizes the society and leads to violent social and political change.  And we're getting worse.

We need a more progressive tax code, and to return to the pattern of wealth distribution we had in 1970 or so.

[Etah dna Evol]

Then it will be addressed in the streets.  America is already at the level of wealth disparity between the Haves and Have-nots that historically destabilizes the society and leads to violent social and political change.  And we're getting worse.

We need a more progressive tax code, and to return to the pattern of wealth distribution we had in 1970 or so.

Wealth redistribution is not and never will be the answer. America is not a pseudo-socialist European country with rationed healthcare and 50% tax rates. None of those countries are producers, none of those countries are inventors. None of those countries are exceptional the same way that America is exceptional.

and we are not going to destabilize. We are the richest country in the fuckin world. Our middle class live like kings compared to the rest of the world. The reason people are having these catastrophic thoughts is simply a lack of perspective. The average Egyptian family eats meat once a month,  because that's all they can afford. In America, all but a very few live like fuckin Kings.

and each and every one of us through hard work and a little bit of luck can improve our station in life.

[Callie Del Noire]

Wealth redistribution is not and never will be the answer. America is not a pseudo-socialist European country with rationed healthcare and 50% tax rates. None of those countries are producers, none of those countries are inventors. None of those countries are exceptional the same way that America is exceptional and we are not going to destabilize. We are the richest country in the fuckin world. Our middle class live like kings compared to the rest of the world. The reason people are having these catastrophic thoughts is simply a lack of perspective. The average Egyptian family eats meat once a month,  because that's all they can afford. In America, all but a very few live like fuckin Kings.

and each and every one of us through hard work and a little bit of luck can improve our station in life.

I beg to differ..

I've lived in Europe, serveral times and places. I've been part of Europe pre EU and Post. You say that they aren't productive. You're mistaken. Take a look at Airbus, that company works hard and has a MASSIVE support system. Hell they manufacture components in different contries and still produce a product comparable to ours. The Europeans live pretty damn good, I had enough of them for neighbors to put the lie to that assertion. And in many ways I felt safer there than here. Particularly in the food and health areas.

As for American exceptionalism. Even if it exists.. corporate greed and short sightedness is smothering the next generation of that. Right now I don't see any innovations coming down the pipe.. in fact I see a LOT of attempts to smother anything new or innovative that the established businesses don't like.

The writer's strike back in 08? A large part of it was a mere .03% increase in royalties. From a group that was INFAMOUS for cookign the books and hiding their profits. They are racking in massive profits online and on demand sales and don't want to share it with their creative talent. The studios (video and audio) want to keep the system they've had in place for decades and not update it. Hell got a smartphone, ipod or other music player more advanced than a cd player? If the Music studios had their way you wouldn't be able to lisence to digital music at all. (American studios tried to BAN early MP3 players.. but then they also tried to ban VCRs, DVRs, Tape Recorders, the list goes on)

So I would argue the greedy 1% is stifling innovation. Look at SOPA/PIPA/CISPA, if these were passed things like YouTube, Hulu, iTunes would have never been able to get off the ground. There is a difference between protecting your property and stifling innovation and change. Did you know that Happy Birthday is copyrighted till 2030? And if media groups had there way? It would NEVER enter public domain. You'd have to potentially pay the owners if you taped and posted your grandkid singing it on YouTube. How is that exceptional and innovative? I'll give you it's damn creative to charge outrageous amounts for a song that was copied off another (substitute 'Good Morning' for 'Happy Birthday' and you get ALL the differences). But hey.. we got to protect the LLC that bought the copyright.

American Innovation comes from a strong education system.. which we definitely don't have, culturing an enviroment where businesses are encouraged to research.. which we no longer do (used to give tax breaks..but those went away in the 70s) and coming together, which we aren't. Right now we're more divided and partisan than we've been in a LONG time.

You've got the working class and middle class, who have gotten ROYALLY boned and the entitled upper class. Who are getting more and more of the pie and sharing fuck all of it. And changing the rules to protect and hide their share.

Be honest, we're about 10 years from a really nasty break if things don't change. The schism between the guys runnign the company and the guys on the floor doing the work have literally NEVER been bigger. You get guys who litterally get HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS for pissing away their market share, losing business, screwing up by the numbers and bankrupting their own company while the guy doing the work gets less and less. Because if he complains, he can get fired and replaced by someone younger and cheaper. Loyalty isnt' being rewarded.

My dad worked for Levi Strauss, till some Master of Business Atrocities decided that everyone over 50 in his division or had more than 20 years with the company had to go for one reason or another (basically they wanted them gone to save dollars). In his case it came back to bite them in the ass because when they got rid of all those quality assurance people without having talent to replace it. There was literally NO ONE under 35 able to do his job. The schooling and training weren't there anymore. (Another miracle of 'American education') In the end the company wound up paying through the nose as he came back as a consultant.

If American industry was 'exceptional', you'd have special interests looking into getting the R&D tax break reinstated or find ways to get encouraged to invest in domestic markets. Instead they push through loopholes for hiding their cash outside the country or getting rewarded for outsourcing.

A lot of people don't realize more than 'stupid grunt work' and call center jobs. Accounting divisions and tech jobs are getting outsource, you know the jobs that are supposed to 'replace the low paying factory jobs'. Which we can't fill because.. that's right.. education here sucks.

We're stagnant, run by the greedy and they are finally over reaching. You watch. We can either reform.. or sooner or later we will see things like the Arab Spring here.

Capitalism should be equal.. not only for the established businesses. It's harder today for me to get a job than it was before I went into service, despite having a degree, the training equivalent to another degree and a THIRD one on the way..as well as a history of security clearances and such. I should be beating recruiters off with a stick.. not getting 'We want you to do $30.00/hour jobs for $18.00/hour for at most 30 hours a week'..cause the companies don't want to do health coverage. I got one 'offer' to do avionics work.. onsite for 12.00/hour with a +10/hour if I move more than 100 miles off site.. (the 10 an hour extra was AFTER I clocked in on the remote site and fyi.. my transit was out of MY POCKET).

Clearly the redistribution of weath isnt' the proper thing.. but increasing salary for someone beside the executives is needed. I literally have not gotten a living wage offer for my job skills. There should be more to business than crunching the most cash out of every possible corner for this quarter and ensuring the guys at the top get ungodly bonuses while everyone else is shorted.

My dad had a job that he could raise a family of three boys and a wife on without her working when I was a kid, by the time we got back from Europe.. for 2 boys and my mom.. she had to work. Full time. Now adays.. aside from my older brother, everyone I know has two full time earners in their family. Face it.. for most of the country, we're working more, longer, harder for less buying power.

[Etah dna Evol]

American Innovation comes from a strong education system.. which we definitely don't have,

I disagree with that statement. Our primary and secondary education system are terrible, but our universities are world class.

Be honest, we're about 10 years from a really nasty break if things don't change. The schism between the guys runnign the company and the guys on the floor doing the work have literally NEVER been bigger.

There isn't gonna be a revolution or anything like that. If we wanna change things we vote dumb fucks out of office and if we want to change the model of business we have to find ways to make the way they conduct business unprofitable.

Capitalism should be equal..

True capitalism means unchecked free markets. It's a terrible idea and wouldn't be anywhere near equal.

[Oniya]

There isn't gonna be a revolution or anything like that. If we wanna change things we vote dumb fucks out of office and if we want to change the model of business we have to find ways to make the way they conduct business unprofitable.

Who would you vote in, and what would you change?

[Etah dna Evol]

Who would you vote in, and what would you change?

People who know how to count, are not ideologues and who understand that compromise is not only a political reality but a positive step in seeking pragmatic solutions.

The only way I can see changing the industries standard without excessive government regulation is for the American consumer to throw their weight around and only use companies who display best practices. That would be a worthy goal for the OWS movement.

[gaggedLouise]

Please expand on "display best practices", Etah (I am singling that one out because it's the only one of your suggestions that looks somehow specific: something like "vote in those people that got some brains" could mean almost any kind of policy). What kind of practices, and from whose point of view? Sterling technology at good prices - or at rather higher prices "because that's what it takes", and to make customers feel exclusive? Excellent service? The best storefronts? Or is it "those who sell only truly home soil made stuff"?

How about: the companies being willing to stick to standards that make sure their customers will not always have to check for every new piece to see if it works together with what they already have and won't or cannot discard - because they're not going to exchange the entire setup of let's say their home desktop or their "music corner"? With tv sets, tv reception boxes, modems and tablets - like it or not, everyone has tv sets, online connected phones and handsets these days, and use them for sensible reasons, for getting information and for work, not just for playing games - it's become an issue already. No one can take it for granted today that the new one he buys for hundreds of bucks will connect to the ones he has, the way he wants it to, or that there is even any bit of legit wiring in the market that will let them connect without paying a thousand more.

And home tech companies today are not good at offering service or spare parts over a long time. I think it's reasonable that if you buy a new printer or a pc you should be able to get service and spare parts on it for at least ten years - remember, it doesn't have to be in continuous everyday use - and the guys who produced the machine should assist in keeping the service chain going, but today that's not how it works. If the printer you bought four years ago, and which has been a reliable workhorse, breaks down you may well have to buy a new model, because the one particular part or the software you want are not around. And the new printer may not be able to run together with the machines you have sitting around - old OS's, wrong kind of plugs and so on. From the point of view of HP that's great, they get to sell more and at a higher rate. To the consumer it's greedy idiocy.

It's not a given thing that companies provide common standards - size formats, plugging, maintenance tags, and so on - to assure that their products can work together and make an open market. To those of us who buy their stuff it's often essential though, and you can't just stand around making a half-hour long interview with the junior sales clerk in the shop on every piece you're considering buying. Some companies might feel that it's none of their business to assure compatibility of course.

A company like Apple famously gets along with having its products nearly only connect to other Apple stuff; it works because they have a fanatically loyal customer base. But most of us want to be able to know, after posing at most two or three questions and looking through the specs sheet, whether the new machine, the new car part, the new radio will connect to the other stuff we have. So, is that kind of good will, decency and accountability towards the buyer part of what you mean by "displaying best practices"?


Another question. America - and the developed world in general - has long seen itself as having a huge middle class where everyone who had the goods behind the frontal skullbone and was willing to work and plan ahead could enter and raise a family. But over the last few decades, those conditions seem to be wearing thin: it's not just individual families "spending in an unwise way" but a middle class itself getting eaten thin by lack of work and rocketing costs for housing, cars and gas, education and studying loans/fees that have to be paid back, and for keeping a home going. As Callie pointed out, his dad (in the fifties-sixties I reckon) was able to sustain a family with three kids on just one wage, his own, and it wasn't a CEO's or faculty professor's wage. Today, every family that wants to make it, live decently and raise kids has to have two main earners, unless they have an inherited fortune. As soon as one of them is out of work or suffers a major paycut, the foundations of their economy come under a looming threat. (I can vouch for the truth of what he says, in the sixties, long before I was born, my grandfather and my uncles were the only people working for pay in their families but they could afford double cars, spacious homes and gardens, and raising kids). This plainly means that overall, most things and services have become more expensive and mainstream wages have not been able to keep up.

Do you see "everybody who's got a decent will to work hard and the mean amount of brains belong in the middle classes" as a viable aspiration? As realistic, today? Or was it never really true in your opinion, just a pipe dream buoyed on an inflated surplus of money and production and politicians willing to exploit that advantage?