Should sex work be legal?

[Beorning]

I just read an interview with a group of activists who are trying to raise support for all kinds of sex work (from erotic dancing to prostitution) to be legalized in Poland. Current situation here is that it's not illegal to work as a prostitute or to pay for sex, but it's illegal to profit from other people's sex work. Also, prostitutes (and other sex workers) cannot pay taxes - which means, they cannot have formal contracts, don't have access to public healthcare etc. The activists in the interview would like to see it changed, so that sex work would be treated as any other kind of employment.

I admit that interview left me conflicted. It's true that, currently, sex workers operate in a total legal void, which is not a good thing. But I was taken back by the activists' claim that making sex work legal is an obvious way to go and that there no inherent problems tied to the whole line of work. They seem to believe that giving prostitutes contracts would solve all the dangers - and they also claim that the almost all of the sex workers actually choose this job on their own, nobody forces them to do so. And there's absolutely almost no human trafficking involved...

I don't know, it just doesn't sit well with me.

I'm wondering what you guys think about the issue?

[Skynet]

I posted about this in regards to FOSTA/SESTA a while ago.

To put it shortly, I tend to think of it like the porn industry in the US. It has its share of problems and unethical labor practices, but things would be far worse if it was illegal.

Contracts are really a short stop measure, as it doesn't address the root causes of sex work; that is, many people take it up out of financial need. Sure there are some wealthy people who enjoy it and don't need the money, but is taken up mostly by people who need the money and are often lacking other means. Or find other means not ideal in serving their material interests and current standard of living.

Making things legal is not enough; destigmization also needs to follow so that those in the trade aren't forced to carry a scarlet letter that prevents them from integrating into mainstream society, as well as social democracy programs that adequately covers people's basic material conditions that will alleviate the reluctant sex workers who feel compelled into the industry out of financial desperation.

If you have the money and time I'd recommend two books written by sex workers. The first is a good, well-sourced outlooks on the industry and make an argument for decriminalization and destigmatization in order to ensure that sex workers get the rights and safety they need. Second is a self-help book written by sex workers. While it may not be the same in content, it's a good look into the life of one who lived it and what she did to stay safe and secure in the industry. Generally speaking, even otherwise liberal and leftist groups presume that sex work is degrading and something to rescue people from, and also something that only happens to women. It fails to account the multi-faceted nature of people involved in the lines of work.

https://www.amazon.com/Revolting-Prostitutes-Fight-Workers-Rights-ebook/dp/B074DGPLM1
https://www.amazon.com/Thriving-Sex-Work-Heartfelt-Industry-ebook/dp/B071SKH43M

Cultural change is also needed: legalized sex work in a highly corrupt and/or misogynist society won't fundamentally improve the lives of people involved. The Roman Empire's sex industry was comprised mostly of slaves and not willing workers, and while prostitution is legal in Bangladesh its largest brothel is full of kidnapped children. Economic justice and social progressivism have to go hand in hand in order to ensure a society where sex workers are given safe, respectful working conditions without the pall of slavery and abusive clients and law enforcement hanging over them. I'd also suggest researching how New Zealand handled decriminalization of sex work; living standards in the industry improved and unlike many other countries the workers and police have a trusting relationship in working together to stand against sexual slavery and abuse of voluntary workers alike.

[Tolvo]

I know a lot of sex workers, and have been in the process of getting into sex work myself(Not anything considered illegal so don't worry I'm not admitting to a crime. Onlyfans and such). Everyone I know actually enjoys the work, and I myself enjoy getting into it.

[Dice]

"If you think sex workers "sell their bodies," but coal miners do not, your view of labor is clouded by your moralistic view of sexuality."

Eric Sprankle.

A sex worker should have all the same legal rights as any other employed person, end of story.

[Kathadon]

I would look to see what regulation of sex workers are being proposed in fully decriminalizing the industry in Poland. Will there be government mandated health checks for workers? Maybe look to the restaurant industry. This brothel has an A rating from the health inspector sort of thing. Posted at the front door along with every workers clean bill of health for the last week.

What sort of contracts will be used for employment? Contracts that limit sex workers in the U.S. to "independent contractors," the same model used for Uber drivers and exotic dancers, places an undue burden on the employees for instance. They are then paid by the customer only. They then are responsible for their own tax burden, health care, no vacations, and the employer simply provides the location "for a fee." Typically 25%+ or so of all earnings.

What practices/security will be in place to protect employees from customers as well? The private club/membership model is dangerous, and can be open to serious abuses in power dynamics.

A well regulated sex industry can open up avenues for young attractive folks to raise their standard of living. But what happens when they get to old? What sort of retirement is offered?

All of these and more really have to be addressed in detail before I would feel comfortable voting to decriminalize sex work fully in an area. Like can a brothel advertise? If so where?

[Oniya]

You seem to be addressing two separate issues here.  There's the decriminalization aspect - which is simply that it isn't a crime to work in this profession - and the regulation of that profession.  Both are aspects that do need to be considered, but negotiating the regulations is far easier once the profession itself isn't a potential jail sentence.

[Kathadon]

Beorning said it is not illegal to do sex work in Poland. It is illegal to profit off of other peoples sex work.

So is it entirely legal to be a sex worker now, right? Just illegal to be the Madame/pimp?

[Beorning]

Beorning said it is not illegal to do sex work in Poland. It is illegal to profit off of other peoples sex work.

So is it entirely legal to be a sex worker now, right? Just illegal to be the Madame/pimp?

It's legal (as in: non-prosecutable) to be a sex worker. It's also legal to pay for sex. But it's illegal to be a madame / pimp or to be tied to someone's sex work financially in any way. So, if you're an IT person who is paid for maintaining a sex worker's website, you can get prosecuted, too.

That said, sex work is not truly legal, as it's not recognized as a legit employment. So, you can't pay income tax - which means, you're also not paying for your social security and public healthcare access. You can't also list this income when applying for a bank loan and you're not working for your retirement (which, again, is based on your taxes). Basically, you're not recognized as being employed in any shape or form by any institution.

[Skynet]

A lot of the "illegal to profit off of other peoples' sex work" laws go much farther than an employer/employee relationship. By the way they're worded it makes it illegal for the children of sex workers to be cared and provided for by their parents, which effectively makes the occupation illegal if you're a parent. It also prevents sex workers from hiring security for their places of employment, or even just having a personal bodyguard. IANAL and cannot speak to Polish law, but said laws don't just affect employers/pimps/etc.

[Oniya]

It's legal (as in: non-prosecutable) to be a sex worker. It's also legal to pay for sex. But it's illegal to be a madame / pimp or to be tied to someone's sex work financially in any way. So, if you're an IT person who is paid for maintaining a sex worker's website, you can get prosecuted, too.

Thanks for the clarification, Beorning.  It does go deeper than it first appears, as that would also effectively prevent someone working on their own behalf to even put out an ad in the newspaper classifieds.

[Kathadon]

Right. Thank you.

So yes, I would base my vote entirely on what systems were in place to regulate the new industry. Simply legalizing the industry without firm oversight is a recipe for disaster. And I would look hard at what was proposed. Especially with Poland's poorer Eastern European neighbors. Human trafficking, abuse of addiction, abuse of children, and abuse of contracts could all be major issues.

What is the age one can first apply for employment in Poland? 15? 18? 21? Would the regulations restrict the age to work as a sex worker to only being an legal adult? I would hope so.

Would brothels allow alcohol to be served? I hope not, but it could happen. What if sex workers drank on the job? Could they legally? If they did and got caught who would be punished?

Things like can a sex worker really consent if they have an addiction? Who is responsible to treat it? The employer? The worker? The government?

For a far less important industry, that was recently decriminalized here in the U.S., look at Colorado's issues with marijuana dispensaries and that industry. The industry is only now starting to address things like chemically treated THC well above what is produced naturally and what health effects this might have. Legal limits on the amount of THC in products, because there are none now. Or small business loans so that the new industry is not overwhelmed by rich investors that can dominate the market. They only made it impossible for felons to open them, which hurt minority communities. Etc. All because they did not address any of it before hand.

And for full disclosure I worked security at multiple "gentleman's clubs" in East St. Louis for half a decade. I have seen what sex work, or sex work adjacent industries do. I am all for sex workers not being jailed for the work. I am all for Only Fans type sex work. But once the business side comes into play I found most sex entrepreneurs have zero clue on things like taxes, accounting, or regulations. And they are taken advantage of or make stupid mistakes that get them in deep trouble.

[Tolvo]

Something I would stress is sex workers having protections and control over their own labor. It's often easy for a bunch of people with power or who think they're knowledgeable to come up with regulations, laws, guidelines, without actually knowing anything that those actually doing the work do. This is an aspect of why a lot of sex workers urge decriminalization but not legalization.

[CriminalMindsFan]

Here in America, I respect sex workers more than politicians and some of them probably hire sex workers themselves or have daughters that are sex workers. LOL

I think it should be legal world wide but it won't stop people from abusing or taking advantage of the workers because in the end everyone is a person.

[Kathadon]

Something I would stress is sex workers having protections and control over their own labor. It's often easy for a bunch of people with power or who think they're knowledgeable to come up with regulations, laws, guidelines, without actually knowing anything that those actually doing the work do. This is an aspect of why a lot of sex workers urge decriminalization but not legalization.

Care to elaborate? Because that mindset seems like a fertile ground for numerous abuses, both financial and labor, and criminality. I would reject any other industry that made such a claim. I do not need to know what exactly any worker does to understand that there needs to be regulations on best practices, minor participation (child labor), taxes, health, and safety. Mostly for the worker if nothing else.

[Tolvo]

An aspect is that there is no trust at all in the institutions that would set up said regulations, especially as some of the more "progressive" voices in power promote things like the nordic model for sex workers, which is reviled by sex workers and causes them and those who use their services harm and put them at risk. If there was trust in these institutions the push would be for legalization more so, but since there is basically zero trust and the history of said institutions shows why there is zero trust, decriminalization tends to be more popular at least from my talks with and reading about and from many sex workers and especially those who are activists.

[Skynet]

Being self-employed can have benefits over being an employee in several cases. For example, you can set your own hours and don't have to worry about being fired b/c your boss is making unreasonable demands out of you. There do exist abuses within employer/employee relationships too, and sex workers can fall under both the self-employed and employee models depending on the circumstances of their occupation.

Your discussion of people being unaware of laws and regulations is a legitimate concern, but it is as just as applicable to employers as the self-employed.

[Beorning]

I'm personally very conflicted on the issue. I absolutely agree with the points about taxes, healthcare etc. It's insane that sex workers have jobs, but can't get social security benefits etc. like everyone else. Also, with them existing in this kind of void, they don't have any protective regulations, they usually don't report abuse (because it leads to their businesses being shut down) etc.

What I'm worried about is that making all of this legal might also help to legalize businesses run by unscrupulous pimps. I seriously can't believe that claim that the amount of forced prostitution, human trafficking etc. in this business is miniscule - that's not what people working with human trafficking victims say...

Also, I'm just not sure if all kinds of sex work can be seen as acceptable ethically. I just can't see prostitution as a job as any other... I mean, would anyone seriously wish their child to become a prostitute as an adult? And isn't misogyny and exploitation of women one of the roots for prostitution even existing..?

I don't know. But I have this intuition that, sometimes, society just cannot legalize something, regardless of how many rational reasons for that there are. I feel the same about things like euthanasia (to use another example). And tobacco industry - which, if you ask me, should be delegalized immediately and all the management of these companies tried for conspiracy to committ mass murder...

[CriminalMindsFan]

I forgot that there has been a crack down on independent contractor status of employment here in California so in parts of America, they would probably want sex workers to unionize or be labeled as employees, if it ever became a widely legal profession. Can't make this stuff up because reality is catching up.

[Tolvo]

I'm personally very conflicted on the issue. I absolutely agree with the points about taxes, healthcare etc. It's insane that sex workers have jobs, but can't get social security benefits etc. like everyone else. Also, with them existing in this kind of void, they don't have any protective regulations, they usually don't report abuse (because it leads to their businesses being shut down) etc.

What I'm worried about is that making all of this legal might also help to legalize businesses run by unscrupulous pimps. I seriously can't believe that claim that the amount of forced prostitution, human trafficking etc. in this business is miniscule - that's not what people working with human trafficking victims say...

Also, I'm just not sure if all kinds of sex work can be seen as acceptable ethically. I just can't see prostitution as a job as any other... I mean, would anyone seriously wish their child to become a prostitute as an adult? And isn't misogyny and exploitation of women one of the roots for prostitution even existing..?

I don't know. But I have this intuition that, sometimes, society just cannot legalize something, regardless of how many rational reasons for that there are. I feel the same about things like euthanasia (to use another example). And tobacco industry - which, if you ask me, should be delegalized immediately and all the management of these companies tried for conspiracy to committ mass murder...

If I were a parent, I'd want my child to be happy, safe, and and fulfilled. If that is what they want to do, I really wouldn't care as long as they're safe and happy and doing what they want to do. I wouldn't really wish it on my child, because I wouldn't want to pressure them into doing something. I'd want them to do what they want to do. I know a lot of parents probably wouldn't feel that way, but we live in incredibly prudish societies. Sex work is highly linked to exploitation, which its status as criminal makes it far easier to exploit people. However a lot of anti-trafficking organizations are highly suspicious, and can at times especially be linked to religious groups(Especially Christian) that abuse survivors and essentially re-traffic them. I trust the people actually living in the field experiencing it over people just telling others what to think and controlling those effected. It's not uncommon for organizations "fighting" trafficking to require conversion to Christianity for one to get any help from them for instance, and abiding by their specific religious rules to stay in programs and get any support.

[Beorning]

However a lot of anti-trafficking organizations are highly suspicious, and can at times especially be linked to religious groups(Especially Christian) that abuse survivors and essentially re-traffic them. I trust the people actually living in the field experiencing it over people just telling others what to think and controlling those effected. It's not uncommon for organizations "fighting" trafficking to require conversion to Christianity for one to get any help from them for instance, and abiding by their specific religious rules to stay in programs and get any support.

Possibly, but certainly not all of them? At least over here, we have at least one very respectable anti-trafficking organization that doesn't do anything like that. And their employees still say they've had hundreds of cases of women being trafficked and enslaved for prostitution. This stuff happens and it cannot be dismissed just as prudish people scoffing at free sex.

[Kathadon]

I'm personally very conflicted on the issue. I absolutely agree with the points about taxes, healthcare etc. It's insane that sex workers have jobs, but can't get social security benefits etc. like everyone else. Also, with them existing in this kind of void, they don't have any protective regulations, they usually don't report abuse (because it leads to their businesses being shut down) etc.

What I'm worried about is that making all of this legal might also help to legalize businesses run by unscrupulous pimps. I seriously can't believe that claim that the amount of forced prostitution, human trafficking etc. in this business is miniscule - that's not what people working with human trafficking victims say...

Also, I'm just not sure if all kinds of sex work can be seen as acceptable ethically. I just can't see prostitution as a job as any other... I mean, would anyone seriously wish their child to become a prostitute as an adult? And isn't misogyny and exploitation of women one of the roots for prostitution even existing..?

I don't know. But I have this intuition that, sometimes, society just cannot legalize something, regardless of how many rational reasons for that there are. I feel the same about things like euthanasia (to use another example). And tobacco industry - which, if you ask me, should be delegalized immediately and all the management of these companies tried for conspiracy to committ mass murder...

Your intuition seems authoritarian. Nobody touches my cigs. ;) There is nothing wrong with that, it is normal for human nature, as long as you recognize it. And there are always rational arguments for all sorts of things. Many moral repugnant things can be rationally argued too. Banning/criminalizing: Red meat. Alcohol. Drugs. Extra marital sex. Private property. Allowing/Legalizing: Tobacco. Euthanasia. And sex work. It is important to do what you are doing here and getting alternate perspectives and research to make up your own mind. Kudos!

As to unscrupulous pimps, what is the difference between a well regulated industry, a poorly regulated one, and a criminal enterprise? Options for the sex worker to legally redress issues of their employment without threats of retaliation or violence. I greatly prefer the first one.

Now if my daughter came to me and told me she was interested in sex work, after I calmed down, I would no doubt work to ensure she was as well informed and educated on the industry as possible. Which is made far easier if there are a common set of regulations and laws codified on the books somewhere.

What the human traffickers are doing without the sunlight of legalization now is horrible. Even in situations like Poland's where sex work is legal I can easily think up a scenario that skirts the law with something similar to what happens in America with migrants. If an unscrupulous company paid to bring in foreign workers under the contract condition that they would reimburse said company for expenses and simply began piling on the worker's debts. Threatening deportation if the debt was not paid by a set time frame. Then offering an out by introducing the option of sex work they would legally be in the clear. Because said worker was simply paying off debts legally owed before hand.

[Tolvo]

I said the prudish aspect in regards to parents and their perception of their child possibly doing sex work. I didn't say all anti-trafficking groups are bad, just that in general among a lot of sex workers there is low trust in them especially due to how many dangerous and corrupt organizations there are. An aspect to keep in mind also is people tend to trust bodies of government that represent them more so and seem to care about their interests and rights. We really don't have that for sex workers, especially given how if you do or have done sex work politically you are basically dead if it is known for the most part. Which also isn't helped due to the criminalization legally of sex work in addition to how it is socially viewed. Which perhaps de-criminalization first would lead down the path to accepting it more and more and getting people into positions of power with actual experience with and history with the profession. Who would be far better suited to bringing such regulations that actually care about sex workers instead of treating them like objects.

[Fox Lokison]

"If you think sex workers "sell their bodies," but coal miners do not, your view of labor is clouded by your moralistic view of sexuality."

Eric Sprankle.

A sex worker should have all the same legal rights as any other employed person, end of story.

Speaking as a sex worker, I agree.

There will always be conversations on how to do it right, on whether it's ethical, moralizations and complaints, but at the end of the day, those tend to ring hollow. Sex work simply is a more direct version of selling our bodies and time, without the fripperies of traditional employment. I sold my body and time in worse conditions when I worked in a factory. 12 hour days, shitty health insurance, swing shifts, if you got hurt or had an issue, they'd just fire you because you're a contractor. You had no power, no ability to advocate for anything, and you were first on the chopping block if anything went wrong - especially if you spoke up. Yet contract labor is entirely legal, and used by companies to cut costs and not have to give a fuck about the health and safety of their workers. Arguably, there is no difference.

Any work is subject to exploitation. If anything, I feel the focus on sex work is a smokescreen to keep us from discussing other methods of worker exploitation. "It's the forced aspect and the sex that makes it bad" tend to be the two arguments I've seen and been subject to. In this sense, when they say forced, they meant economically forced - since I was not physically forced. Yet I was forced to work that factory job - I had to eat, pay bills, and keep a roof over my head, and that was the job that did it. I broke my body at that job, and it's contributed to my total and permanent disability at a young age. The physical toll included chronic blisters, bloodied feet, pain and complications from the constant standing, injuries on the job, repetitive motion injuries... all things that worsen, or lead to, chronic health/pain conditions. All things that shorten lifespan, and make that lifespan painful and unpleasant. All things that increase your risk of death, of alcoholism, of substance abuse. But they don't get the same framing, mostly because that's seen as a passive pressure, vs and active one, and also (in America) because of Protestant work ethics crashing into sex-negative views.

They're not really that different. Treating them as different is the problem. You treat sex trafficking the same way you treat labor trafficking. You don't stop labor because labor is trafficked - you stop trafficking. And arguably tear down the systems creating it, but eh, that's not gonna happen, America's not tearing down capitalism anytime soon.

[Thufir Hawat]

It's legal (as in: non-prosecutable) to be a sex worker. It's also legal to pay for sex. But it's illegal to be a madame / pimp or to be tied to someone's sex work financially in any way. So, if you're an IT person who is paid for maintaining a sex worker's website, you can get prosecuted, too.

That said, sex work is not truly legal, as it's not recognized as a legit employment. So, you can't pay income tax - which means, you're also not paying for your social security and public healthcare access. You can't also list this income when applying for a bank loan and you're not working for your retirement (which, again, is based on your taxes). Basically, you're not recognized as being employed in any shape or form by any institution.

I'm not familiar with Polish law, at least not the labour law, but two questions:
1) How hard is it for someone to claim being "self-employed", list "various" where the specific activity is concerned, and pay taxes for that?
2) Has there been any attempts to prosecute an IT specialist for maintaining a sex worker's site, or the like?

Like, I'm pretty sure the law is stated this way to avoid the pimps just changing their official designation to "security men" or "hotel owners"  while, in fact, being pimps. I mean, if you ask many pimps, that's what they'd say they do, anyway: security and/or providing rooms for the exercise of sex work ;D!
But then usually the prosecutors can exercise their discretion and not prosecute such cases, too...and they're expected to exercise said discretion. Which they usually do, because they've got enough work as it is >:)!

An aspect is that there is no trust at all in the institutions that would set up said regulations, especially as some of the more "progressive" voices in power promote things like the nordic model for sex workers, which is reviled by sex workers and causes them and those who use their services harm and put them at risk. If there was trust in these institutions the push would be for legalization more so, but since there is basically zero trust and the history of said institutions shows why there is zero trust, decriminalization tends to be more popular at least from my talks with and reading about and from many sex workers and especially those who are activists.

Also, I can very well see why that would be the case. I've studied a bit about the consequences of the Nordic model, and they weren't nice at all.

[Skynet]

It's a bit of thread necromancy, but there's a rather good video highlighting the history of sex work in the US and how all too often laws passed against them go hand in hand with increasing unsafe working conditions, actual trafficking and a selective enforcement by police who make arrests on racial and class biases:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPNbYtv0Gpo Converted to link by poster's request

It may not be as relevant to Europe, but there's often been similar trains of moral thought in how a lot of legislation passed is more "feel good" without listening to those negative impacted. The Nordic Model in Scandinavian countries being one such example.