Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]

[chaoslord29]

So, there seem to be a good number of people knowledgeable about and fans of Warhammer 40k, and I'd like to open to discussion a long standing debate between me and a few of my friends who have yet to affirm their faith in the immortal God Emperor, or open their eyes to the beauty of worship in Chaos. Whatever their affairs of faith, these are my friends who still attest to the notion that as a newer, more novel, more dynamic Sci-Fi universe, the Covenant of the Halo Saga would give the Imperium of Man or any other 40k Faction a thorough trouncing.

So I open it up to the forum: Could the Covenant, at the height of their power, with the full resources of their Great Pilgrimage at their disposal, prior to the Brute-Elite civil war, if transplanted to the grim darkness of the far future, make the grade as an established faction amidst the likes of the Orks, Nids, Eldar, Necrons, and all the rest?

[Inkidu]

I don't know. Even the Imperium of Man uses plasma weaponry (which in the Halo universe is the Covenant's trump card), the Tau also use it. My reasoning is that if the factions can hold off the Tau then they can hold off the Covenant. I think the Covenant could hold their own if they had a homeworld in the universe of 40K. I think they'd fit right in.

Also, I don't mean to plug but if you like steampunk try and add some ideas to the Warhammer: Steampunk thread I've got going.

[chaoslord29]

I'm inclined to say the lack of a homeworld is a problem too, because while they might otherwise be kind of like the Eldar with their giant space city and fleet of fast ships. Problem is, rather than content to hide and use the webway and manipulate events to their favor, the Covenant have all the xenocidal tendencies of the Imperium itself, minus the effectively inexhaustible manpower and resources. I can't help but imagine that the Covenant would wind up destroying themselves attempting to cleanse the first well defended Imperial world they happened upon, just like they did in Halo, but with a faster time frame (cause instead of a handful of Spartans and John, they'd be dealing with thousands of even beefier, badass Space Marines any one of whom is a hero the caliber of Master Chief five times over).

Also, I don't mean to plug but if you like steampunk try and add some ideas to the Warhammer: Steampunk thread I've got going.

I read that as: Not to plug, but here's my plug haha.

I'd be happy to take a look!

[HairyHeretic]

I don't know the Halo universe, so forgive me if I'm overlooking anything.

Without warp drive the Covenant aren't going to get too far.

Without Geller fields, they're going to find their first trip through the warp a rather ... interesting ... experience ;)

[chaoslord29]

I don't know the Halo universe, so forgive me if I'm overlooking anything.

Without warp drive the Covenant aren't going to get too far.

Without Geller fields, they're going to find their first trip through the warp a rather ... interesting ... experience ;)

The Haloverse uses Z-Space Drives, which are basically Warp Jumps without the daemons and the storms and the time dilation, so I like to think that what they're using is actually a predecessor to Warp Technology, in a universe where the Chaos Gods haven't begun to twist and taint the Warp yet (hence the relative ease of Z-Space travel). Assuming that to be the case, you would be exactly right, that they're first Jump would result in being exposed to all the horrifying ravages of 40k's Warpspace, and a good portion of the Covenant Armada would likely be torn apart by the physics-breaking gravitic and special effects, even without the legions of daemons which would be clawing their way out of the brains of every other grunt and jackal.

For the sake of fairness however, let's assume the tech doesn't overlap and that they can use Z-Space Jumps as easily as they did in their own universe. It would give them a decided advantage over most of the other 40k Factions after all just in term of speed and ease of travel.

[Inkidu]

I don't know the Halo universe, so forgive me if I'm overlooking anything.

Without warp drive the Covenant aren't going to get too far.

Without Geller fields, they're going to find their first trip through the warp a rather ... interesting ... experience ;)

They're probably going to be most like the Tau just skimming the edge of the void.

[chaoslord29]

Indeed, and like the Tau, I feel like the only thing they'd have going for them is that most of the other major players are too unorganized or stretched to thin as it is to be bothered to finish off the upstart socialists; especially since the Tau don't really try very hard to piss anyone off in particular (Thank you Water Caste).

Meanwhile the Covenant theology is based around annihilating the heretics and non-believers with a zeal to make a member of the Ordo Hereticus pause out of respect; then and promptly alert the Ordo Xenos to bring the really big flamethrowers (the Titan sized ones). The Covenant make it their business to travel to the homeworld of the non-believers and then glass it at all costs (see: Fall of Reach), and even if they guessed wrong again and picked a world like Cadia or a Forge World or, Emperor be Praised, a Space Marine Homeworld . . . well . . . Purge the Unclean and all that.

[Inkidu]

Indeed, and like the Tau, I feel like the only thing they'd have going for them is that most of the other major players are too unorganized or stretched to thin as it is to be bothered to finish off the upstart socialists; especially since the Tau don't really try very hard to piss anyone off in particular (Thank you Water Caste).

Meanwhile the Covenant theology is based around annihilating the heretics and non-believers with a zeal to make a member of the Ordo Hereticus pause out of respect; then and promptly alert the Ordo Xenos to bring the really big flamethrowers (the Titan sized ones). The Covenant make it their business to travel to the homeworld of the non-believers and then glass it at all costs (see: Fall of Reach), and even if they guessed wrong again and picked a world like Cadia or a Forge World or, Emperor be Praised, a Space Marine Homeworld . . . well . . . Purge the Unclean and all that.

There are a couple of other issues:

Firstly, the covenant would have to deal with a lot more super-soldiers than just the Spartans (the Space Marines have a lot more chapters and a lot more marines), and the space marines are probably a bit better than the Spartans in some ways.

Secondly, the Covenant's M.O. is to convert and enslave aliens and destroy humans. So how would they treat other sentient races? The races are not prone to  conversion outside of humanity, if the Tau are anything to go by. Would they fight as hard against aliens as they would humans? It's a dynamic shift in thinking for the Halo-verse aliens. 

[chaoslord29]

There are a couple of other issues:

Firstly, the covenant would have to deal with a lot more super-soldiers than just the Spartans (the Space Marines have a lot more chapters and a lot more marines), and the space marines are probably a bit better than the Spartans in some ways.

Secondly, the Covenant's M.O. is to convert and enslave aliens and destroy humans. So how would they treat other sentient races? The races are not prone to  conversion outside of humanity, if the Tau are anything to go by. Would they fight as hard against aliens as they would humans? It's a dynamic shift in thinking for the Halo-verse aliens.

Definitely think if the Covenant had to tangle with the full force of a Space Marine Chapter, they'd be royally screwed. The average Space Marine is more than 'probably a bit better' than Spartans. They're like Spartans 5.0 raised on a steady diet of bullets and fanatical xenocidal dogma, then run through a creep crawlies factory for a bunch of extra bits and organs that allow them to spit acid, wear power armor like a second skin, and cannibalize the genetic memories of apex predators to help them survive (all canon traits of every last Adeptus Astartes).

There M.O. is exactly that it would take to have them facing down the steely fist of the Imperium or any other factions not inconsiderable might at the soonest opportunity. You're right again, that like the Tau they believe in the conversion of worthy species to their cause, but where the Tau promise prosperity and a place in the Greater Good, the Covenant promise death and damnation for all those who don't accept their beliefs. That's not really going to fly with any of the other alien factions with 40k, least of all the Tau themselves, the Orks, or the Nids.

[consortium11]

I'm not particularly familiar with the Halo Universe but beyond the points everyone else has made there also appear to be a lot more "heroes" in 40k compared to it. As I understand it Master Chief is about as badass as they come... but from the little I know of his exploits they don't appear to be vastly superior to what you'd expect a "normal" Space Marine to achieve in similar circumstances. Even without getting into Kaldor Draigo levels of (stupid fluff based) power there are an awful lot of hugely powerful individuals who, going by fluff, would lay waste to whole armies of Covenant troops.

And does the Halo universe have any equivalents to Titans for ground battles? Or ships of the size and power of an Emperor Class Battleship (or in truth any of the other Battleships)?

Moreover, was psychic powers ever really mentioned in the Halo canon? Because in the 40K Universe any race without serious psychic power of its own (or some form of immunity) is likely to be torn apart in short order.

[chaoslord29]

The Covenant have no psykers, only the Flood and the Overmind *cough* I mean, the Gravemind utilize anything approaching telepathy.

I think a Scarab would be about the equivalent of a Warhound Titan, but laughably under armed in comparison. So a smallish Titan Legion could likely lay waste to just about anything the Covenant could throw at them on the ground, even the entirety of the Covenant armed forces in a combined effort. Titan Legions are few and far between however,  so probably not worth considering so long as the Covenant steer clear of Forge and Fortress worlds (which they may not be particularly won't to do). Actually, the Covenant on the whole are rather lacking vehicles wise, even if you include stuff from Halo Wars. I mean, that's more or less what you'd expect from an FPS centered franchise, but given that their standard vehicles are mostly light skimmers and the equivalent of jetbikes . . . I'm beginning to think you wouldn't need much more than a well armed and equipped Imperial Guard Chapter to defeat them, especially if they could deploy say, a Baneblade or other Superheavy Vehicle.

A Baneblade would be more than a match for a Scarab, or two, or three, so while I'm willing to give the Covenant a few victories over planetary and system militias and defense forces. A few concurrent victories is all you really need before the Lords of Terra decide it's time to raise a new IG chapter and finish off the Xenos threat before it becomes any more of an annoyance; or if you're really unlucky, a Space Marine chapter will answer the call, and as you pointed out, the average Space Marine is more or less a match for most of Master Chief's escapades (minus the plot armor) so it doesn't take much to imagine what a Terminator Company would due to the Covenant Armada piecemeal.

I hadn't even considered the difference in scale on the space level . . . I was busy factoring how much faster Covenant ships would be in and out of Warp Space. According the Halowiki, Covenant Cruisers, the mainstays of their fleets range between 300 and 3,000 meters in size. The Covenant heavy hitters like the less than common Assault Carriers can be as big as 5km, and the Supercarriers (of which 2 are mentioned anywhere in the series) are a whopping 29km bow to stern. Destroyers and Frigates make up the bulk of the fleet (maybe as much as 2/3rds) and are smaller than 1km in size.

Compare that to the workhorses of the Imperium of Man, the Lunar Cruiser, 5km long and weighing in at nearly double the tonnage of even the largest Covenant cruisers. Now the Covenant are able to field hundreds of their own cruisers as the backbone of their fleet, but the IoM fields 600 Lunar class cruisers in the Segmentum Obscurus alone. That's on top of the Dictator, Dominator, Tyrant, Cardinal, and Gothic class cruisers which make up nearly as many again! That's twelve hundred ships, each of them larger and better armed than a Covenant Assault Carrier, the largest normal class of vessel in any given Covenant Fleet (serving as flagships). Imperial Heavy Cruisers and Battleships are even bigger, better armed, and outnumber their counterparts in the Covenant Navy, maybe 10 to 1 in any give Segmentum of the Imperium. Perhaps most tellingly of all? Covenant weapons appear to have an engagement range of of a few thousand meters, that's missiles and beam projectors and other plasma weapons. The smallest vessels of an Imperial Battlefleet have gun batteries and lance weapons which measure their effective engagement range at tens of thousands of meters. Covenant craft won't even be able to get a shot off against Imperial Craft until engaging them at what any Imperial Captain would consider 'point blank' range, the range at which they'll be launching apartment building sized artillery shells at ships less than half their size.

I'm calling it, haha, I can't imagine how the Covenant could possibly survive if they can't even tangle with a small battlefleet without sacrificing half their armada.

[Cold Heritage]

For the sake of fairness however, let's assume the tech doesn't overlap and that they can use Z-Space Jumps as easily as they did in their own universe. It would give them a decided advantage over most of the other 40k Factions after all just in term of speed and ease of travel.

With that caveat, they could probably kick the entire setting in the dick by going to glass Terra, initiating one of the doomsday 'Death of the Emperor' scenarios. Like, the ghost of Pyrrhus would come out of the warp and whisper to the Covenant leadership: 'you done fucked up, son' while the Chaos Gods part Covenant cheeks for deepest rammings.

[SinXAzgard21]

The Covenant would crap themselves if they had to fight this instead of Spartans.

[chaoslord29]

It's probably worth considering that if Master Chief is considered the Demon by the forces of the Covenant, they might react less than favorably to facing down armies of even bigger, badder, better armed demons who do an even better job of living up to the title.

[Neysha]

You know they debate this very fact extensively on other web boards.

Quite extensively too... in disturbing detail sometimes.

And sometimes in extremely juvenile manner as well. Either/or...

http://forums.spacebattles.com/

[chaoslord29]

You know they debate this very fact extensively on other web boards.

Quite extensively too... in disturbing detail sometimes.

And sometimes in extremely juvenile manner as well. Either/or...

http://forums.spacebattles.com/

Tempting, but I generally like to use boards like these which are not dedicated to such discussions, because that tends to be where you find the most partisan, irreconcilable, and as you said, juvenile types most devoted to seeing their side win no matter what.

Granted, the boards here have been overwhelmingly in favor of 40k . . . I suppose I could make some point about that lending to the idea that it's played overwhelmingly by juvenile man-children who couldn't write their way out of a paper bag XD

[consortium11]

Granted, the boards here have been overwhelmingly in favor of 40k . . . I suppose I could make some point about that lending to the idea that it's played overwhelmingly by juvenile man-children who couldn't write their way out of a paper bag XD

Or that the 40K Universe is so relentlessly grim-dark, written on such a scale and full of such over-the-top power fluff that it's hard to imagine any other fictional race/civilisation/appropriate term appearing in it and surviving, let alone thriving.

[Inkidu]

Anyone else notice that when you try to explain Warhammer 40K to someone else who isn't familiar with the game it sounds like the most ludicrous thing in the universe. I used to be like that. I could never tell if fans were being flippant or serious. When it's explained to you it sounds like something a thirteen-year-old boy who was doodling in math class.

Then I played Space Marine and was introduced to Capt. Titus of the Ultramarines. Then I got it. I got it at the freaking opening when he's taking on a whole ork ship with a combat knife and a pistol.

I hear it even made the fans of the game proper ease up on the Ultramarines.

[Neysha]

Anyone else notice that when you try to explain Warhammer 40K to someone else who isn't familiar with the game it sounds like the most ludicrous thing in the universe.

Yeah that Space Marine game captured the ridiculous atmosphere and tone of Warhammer 40K perfectly.

[consortium11]

I hear it even made the fans of the game proper ease up on the Ultramarines.

I haven't properly played Warhammer of any description in... well, at least a decade I guess. I think it was about the time the Dark Eldar were released that I stopped really playing.

One of my armies was Ultramarines and while they got a little stick for being the generic, somewhat boring Space Marines, most other players didn't object to them.

From what I understand most of the current dislike for the Ultramarines comes from a single writer (the same guy who came up with Kaldor Draigo, the Grey Knight who according to fluff is easily the most powerful character the entire universe has ever seen... including Chaos Gods and the Emperor) including in the fluff writing that they were the "perfect" marines and every other chapter is desperately trying to live up to their ideals while their Primarch was the perfect Primarch who all the other Primarch's wanted to be.

As I understand it, that writer's the same guy who made the Demon armies in Fantasy Battle completely overpowered but I'm only getting that second hand.

[Inkidu]

I always thought that the Ultramarines were just the strictest adherents to the Codex Astartes (I think that's what it's called, I've never seen it written).
They're the most "ideal" because of an adherence to a code of rules that in all fairness are very strict and stifling if you give them a literal reading.

[Cold Heritage]

I'll just leave this here:

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3492/ultramarines.png

Real True Mat Ward Facts.

[Inkidu]

I'll just leave this here:

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3492/ultramarines.png

Real True Mat Ward Facts.

He's got a bad case of hero worship, methinks. All spacemarines are the will of the emperor equally. Petty squabbles only serve to weaken the humanity in its fight against the alien, the mutant, and the heretic.

[consortium11]

He's got a bad case of hero worship, methinks. All spacemarines are the will of the emperor equally. Petty squabbles only serve to weaken the humanity in its fight against the alien, the mutant, and the heretic.

As I say, I'm getting most of this second hand but to me it seems to be less that he hero worships any group in particular and more that he makes the fluff he does for any of the projects he's on "epic" (on a level beyond even the traditional epicness of 40k). I've mentioned him a bunch of times and so am in danger of repeating myself but look at Kaldor Draigo... a Grey Knight who has carved his predacessor's name onto Mortarion's heart (yep, that would be Daemon Prince/Primarch Mortarion), twice banished the powerful Daemon Prince M'Kaar basically single handed, is currently wandering the Warp and in his spare time destroying the walls of the Inevitable City, burning down the Garden of Nurgle, killing a Bloodthirsty (remember, in the Warp where Bloodthirsters are meant to be nigh-on unstoppable) with basically his bare hands, rejecting and then killing six of Slaanesh's chosen handmaidens and generally being so badass that chaos daemons are scared of him in the warp and leave him alone.

I figure you give him basically any codex and the fluff will make them out to be the bestest, best ever.

[Cold Heritage]

I figure you give him basically any codex and the fluff will make them out to be the bestest, best ever.

He's not alone in doing so. Most Codexes make their faction out to be really great, but he's the Fanboy Enemy #1.