Blizzcon: 2011

[Callie Del Noire]

World of Warcraft.. MISTS OF PANDARIA!

Pandarians as a player race.
Monk Class
90 level cap
New Talent system (Hopefully hybrid systems will be able to come back)
New continent
and .. more more more...

Pet Battle modes.
Challenge Dungeons.
Raid Finder for ALL raids.
The Return of World Bosses.

More options for Valor Points.. including PVE events/'battlegrounds' and questing.

More PVP modes..
-Murderball
-Stranglethorn Diamond Mine
-Tol'vir Proving Grounds.

Achivements
-Shared account achievements
-Acheivements needed to be done by MULITPLE characters.. (like.. getting ALL tradeskills maxed among your account characters)

Ranged slot-Gone (except hunters)
Hunter Melee slot -gone
Wand- main hand weapon for casters
Relics -gone

Warlocks- Three different mechanics to show the different styles.

Shamans- Buff totems -Gone (still have the buffs)

Druids - 4 specs (dps (feral), tank (bear), healer, boomkin

General Class clean up- Spell specs, automatic spell learning, tweaks to rotation, cleaning up action bars.

LOTS AND LOTS of stuff on the talent tree.

[Callie Del Noire]

Mists of Pandaria (official trailer)

[LunarSage]

Pandas?  I can't say I'm super excited.

I'm curious of two things...

One, when will this new expansion be released? 

Two, will the Panda folk be Horde?  Alliance?  Both?  Neither?

[Callie Del Noire]

Pandas?  I can't say I'm super excited.

I'm curious of two things...

One, when will this new expansion be released? 

Two, will the Panda folk be Horde?  Alliance?  Both?  Neither?

1. Undisclosed.. 'when it's done'

2. Neutral.. till level 10. They then CHOOSE their faction.

[Callie Del Noire]

Panderans can be: Everything but Druids, Warlocks, Palidins.

Every race but Worgen/Goblins can be Monks.

Monks are sorta like Palidins in that they fill all 3 roles.
-Brewmaster: Tank
-Windmaster: Healer
-<I forgot>: DPS

[Callie Del Noire]

Pet Battles.. think.. POKEMON.

You can 'fight' wild pets to 'capture & train' and there are 'Masters' you can fight to learn special abiliites.

[LunarSage]

Murloc!   I choose YOU!

[Callie Del Noire]

Murloc!   I choose YOU!

More like.. 'Grunty! I choose you.. oh.. he's got a zergling!"

[Shjade]

It's finally happened: they've reached a point where their expansion trailers actually make me wonder why I played the game in the first place.

It would appear I've fully detoxed.

[Samael]

On the other hand I, having been clean since about 7 months, are feeling the draw to look back into it.

Damn, that's a lot of positive changes.

[Aiden]

Who gives a shit about Wow! It's all about Diablo 3 and Heart of the Swarm!

[LunarSage]

Aiden:  Panda PCs.

[Josietta]

*laughs* yes...

Who gives a shit about Wow! It's all about Diablo 3 and Heart of the Swarm!

says the guy who texted me moments after learning about them :P   sides.... we all know you can't give up on your addiction :P

Lunar and I signed up for year long membership to get that special mount and diablo 3 digital copy. :P

[Aiden]

Haha...I know. I know...but Diablo 3....Diablo!

[Callie Del Noire]

*laughs* yes...

says the guy who texted me moments after learning about them :P   sides.... we all know you can't give up on your addiction :P

Lunar and I signed up for year long membership to get that special mount and diablo 3 digital copy. :P

Aaaaaannnddddd.. The Beta?

[Callie Del Noire]

Hopefully they'll add this little guy.

[Josietta]

Aaaaaannnddddd.. The Beta?

yus!  The Beta as well ;D

[Reine]

Did anybody watch the WoW Arena Tournaments? Its a little incredible how on-edge those players are for the entire 15 minutes some matches last.

[Callie Del Noire]

Did anybody watch the WoW Arena Tournaments? Its a little incredible how on-edge those players are for the entire 15 minutes some matches last.

I watched the Raid event..

[Reine]

I watched the Raid event..

Oh drat. I missed that, though I was cheering for vodka to win. Shame they lost.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I remember watching this trailer for the first time.  I said to myself, "Wow, it looks like Kung Fu Panda."  Then a panda popped up as a monk and I said.."Holy shit it's Kung Fu Panda!"

[Aiden]

I saw a total of 1 match and the final of the star craft match, I was drunk the rest of the time.

I even did the lore zone and got to the second prize, drunk as hell.

[Callie Del Noire]

Oh drat. I missed that, though I was cheering for vodka to win. Shame they lost.

I put down their loss to the fact that they were SLIGHTLY behind and maybe got a bit reckless in trying to get ahead.

[Reine]

I put down their loss to the fact that they were SLIGHTLY behind and maybe got a bit reckless in trying to get ahead.

Most likely, though Blood Legion is a fantastic guild all and all, so it was a fair loss. I'm still amazed that they have a boss of Ragnaros calaber on heroic farm.

[AllieCat]

Apparently Blizzard is dealing with a fairly major fuss about the closing ceremonies for Blizzcon as they broadcast a video statement by a member of the band Cannibal Corpse (who was there apparently to perform with the Blizzard Band Level 90 Elite Tauren Chieftan).

The statement referred to Alliance players as "faggots" and "emo cocksuckers".

So you can imagine this raised a bit of an uproar (both on the LGBT side for using those terms in a derogatory manner, and on the general Alliance side, as for some folks it confirmed their theory that Blizzard prefers the Horde), and I think Blizzard reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly should have known better on the LGBT side, because this was an EDITED statement from 2007.. so it's not like they didn't KNOW what was on the video, this wasn't an off-the-cuff remark.

Blizzard went through a few half-apology/argument blue comments before they woke up and realized they screwed up and have basically said "Yeah, we screwed up badly. We apologize"

http://gaygamer.net/2011/10/blizzard_president_apologizes.html

[ofDelusions]

5 man heroics will be wotlk difficulty.

Well, since I don't like the idea of timed challenge modes at all, I most likely wont be coming back to this game even if both GW2 and SWTOR somehow suck.

[Inkidu]

Apparently Blizzard is dealing with a fairly major fuss about the closing ceremonies for Blizzcon as they broadcast a video statement by a member of the band Cannibal Corpse (who was there apparently to perform with the Blizzard Band Level 90 Elite Tauren Chieftan).

The statement referred to Alliance players as "faggots" and "emo cocksuckers".

So you can imagine this raised a bit of an uproar (both on the LGBT side for using those terms in a derogatory manner, and on the general Alliance side, as for some folks it confirmed their theory that Blizzard prefers the Horde), and I think Blizzard reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly should have known better on the LGBT side, because this was an EDITED statement from 2007.. so it's not like they didn't KNOW what was on the video, this wasn't an off-the-cuff remark.

Blizzard went through a few half-apology/argument blue comments before they woke up and realized they screwed up and have basically said "Yeah, we screwed up badly. We apologize"

http://gaygamer.net/2011/10/blizzard_president_apologizes.html[/urlI ]

I heard about that, and there's also one confirmed case of actual physical assault against a lady who was alliance and that apparently ticked off some horde guy.

[Shjade]

Oh, WoW-obsessed players. Don't ever change.

[TheGlyphstone]

I heard about that, and there's also one confirmed case of actual physical assault against a lady who was alliance and that apparently ticked off some horde guy.

Though

Oh, WoW-obsessed players. Don't ever change.

If this had happened at, say, a football game, it'd barely make the police report in the local news. Everyone knows that supporters of different teams get into fights. But because it's a gathering of nerds, it's shocking and unusual...

[LunarSage]

Football Teams:  Real

WoW Factions:  Imaginary

[TheGlyphstone]

Football Teams:  Real

WoW Factions:  Imaginary

See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. For many football fans (heck, for many sports fans in general), pro sports is effectively imaginary. For the mildly overweight man with season tickets to his local Piggers team and the mildly overweight man who's a 3v3 Arena champion, what's the difference? If anything, the football fan's experience is more 'imaginary' because it's an entirely passive activity without participation.

[LunarSage]

But the teams actually exist in the real world.  They are -tangible-.  The Horde and the Alliance, like WoW gold are entirely make believe.  That's my point.

[TheGlyphstone]

And my point is that from the perspective of the fans we're discussing, they're both equally ephemeral and intangible. For all the Piggers fans out there, a minority of them will ever know their team as anything but figures moving around on a TV screen, and a tiny, tiny percentage will ever actually get to meet a team member or even be closer than watching them live from stadium seating. The best most of them will get is buying merchandise and vocally supporting their factionteam (and, of course, trash-talking the opposition).

Fans will be fans across the world, whatever activity they support. Crazy people will be crazy people, whatever form of craziness they manifest. These two categories can and often do overlap, and one set of enthusiasts shouldn't get any sort of pass on crazy behavior or excess simply because their fandom is more mainstream.

[LunarSage]

We'll have to agree to disagree. 

I think assaulting someone over their WoW Faction is far more ridiculous than a fight between sports fans.  Mind you, both are ridiculous and wrong... but real life WoW Faction hate, especially to that extreme is downright stupid in my opinion. 

It's just a stupid game... and I'd say the same thing to an irate sports fan.  Well, maybe not when I'm within swinging distance.

[TheGlyphstone]

Fair enough. I just lump all fandoms, game or otherwise, into 'yeah, they disagree, get over it and punching them for it is stupid', whether it's real or imaginary or anything else.

Though now I kinda want to see a knock-down, drag-out fight between classical music fans over Bach vs. Motzart. Or fast food diners over McDonalds vs. Burger King. Or ice cream fans over chocolate vs. vanilla. Heck, let's have a mass gladiatorial death match between Team Edward and Team Jacob...at least that way the rest of us will get some entertainment.

[Aiden]

Hah I would not say "it's a stupid game" to a Raiders fan.  XD

I agree that some players take the game to the extreme and it is only those cases that get reported.

For the entire Horde/Alliance Bias I am sure we can argue for days on the topic so I won't even touch it. I will say that the Alliance has had more recognizable heroes in its storyline then the Horde, I think people think the Horde is favored simply because it has the "underdog" factor to it.

With the comment from the guy from Cannibal Corpse...It's the comment from a lead singer from a Death Metal band, can we really take anything he says seriously? Let's start talking about his lyrics of fucking someone with a knife or ripping the entrails out of a Virgin.

[AllieCat]

That's the thing. THEY KNEWwhat was on that video statement, and they went far enough to bleep it out on the webcast. If they knew it was that bad, and likely would have an effect, why leave it in there for the live audience? It was stupid of them, and then they nearly compounded it by trying to gloss over it, but they've recognized they screwed up and apologized,

And Horde. Underdog. yeah, that's not the situation, like ever?

[TheGlyphstone]

Pretty sure we had the whole Horde favoritism/underdog argument in the last major WoW off-topic thread done to death.

[Shjade]

But the teams actually exist in the real world.  They are -tangible-.  The Horde and the Alliance, like WoW gold are entirely make believe.  That's my point.

The teams actually exist in the real world.

So does the game, World of Warcraft.

One is a contract distinction. The other is software. They're both real, existing things, and neither has any value to the people fighting over them aside from providing entertainment.

Fighting over WoW factions does not make less sense than fighting over sports factions. They're equally stupid.

[LunarSage]

Meh.

[Inkidu]

Though
If this had happened at, say, a football game, it'd barely make the police report in the local news. Everyone knows that supporters of different teams get into fights. But because it's a gathering of nerds, it's shocking and unusual...

Typically though your average sports goer won't assault a woman out of the blue, especially if she was minding her own. :\
It's all equally stupid and shameful.

[TheGlyphstone]

Typically though your average sports goer won't assault a woman out of the blue, especially if she was minding her own. :\
It's all equally stupid and shameful.

Neither does your average sports goer WoW player.

[Inkidu]

Neither does your average sports goer. I think.

Uh... I don't follow.

[TheGlyphstone]

Uh... I don't follow.

Your average Wow player doesn't assault a woman out of the blue who's minding her own business either, is what I was saying. Your comment seemed to imply that an average WoW player would do such a thing, though I've got a strong feeling that wasn't intentional.

[Shjade]

Your average sports goer doesn't assault a woman out of the blue who's minding her own business either, is what I was saying. Your comment seemed to imply that an average WoW player would do such a thing, though I've got a strong feeling that wasn't intentional.

I believe his confusion stems from the fact that you repeated what he just said.

He said, "The average sports goer doesn't do X," to which you replied, "But the average sports goer doesn't do X."

I'm guessing you meant to say your average WoW player doesn't do X either and repeated "sports goer" instead, Glyph?

[TheGlyphstone]

...yeah. Whoops.

[Wolfy]

So..do all Monks start off in Pandaria, or do they have their own special starting zone?

And for that matter, will all monks start at a special level, like Death Knights?

[Callie Del Noire]

So..do all Monks start off in Pandaria, or do they have their own special starting zone?

And for that matter, will all monks start at a special level, like Death Knights?

The start as normal 1st levels in their racial zones.

[meikle]

Well, since I don't like the idea of timed challenge modes at all, I most likely wont be coming back to this game even if both GW2 and SWTOR somehow suck.

Oh man, the 45 minute Strat is still the one thing I look back to as being Most Enjoyable in WoW.

[Callie Del Noire]

Oh man, the 45 minute Strat is still the one thing I look back to as being Most Enjoyable in WoW.

Or as I call it now the six minute run. I got 93 mounts and want to gt a few more before 4.3 and the mountain press hit.

[Wolfy]

The start as normal 1st levels in their racial zones.

But..why? I thought Monks needed special trainers? @_@

Also..I wonder what Female Pandarens look like...I may have to play one and be a sexy panda Monk.

[TheGlyphstone]

But..why? I thought Monks needed special trainers? @_@

Also..I wonder what Female Pandarens look like...I may have to play one and be a sexy panda Monk.

Didn't stop them from adding new trainers to the starting zones in catalcysm when race/class combos got expanded.

Though the starting zones may end up removing trainers entirely, because the only thing you'll need them for anymore in MoP is when you want to chance your spec. All abilities will be gained automatically through leveling.

[meikle]

Or as I call it now the six minute run. I got 93 mounts and want to gt a few more before 4.3 and the mountain press hit.

obviously the challenge isn't going to hold up three expansions down the line ... but it was certainly fun to try to clear Strat in 45 minutes in nothing but 5-man blues.

[Wolfy]

Guys guys guys guys.


...Pandaren....Death Knight.


@_@

[Callie Del Noire]

Guys guys guys guys.


...Pandaren....Death Knight.


@_@

No such creature.

ditto pandaren Warlock
Ditto Pandaren Paladin.

[Wolfy]

No such creature.

ditto pandaren Warlock
Ditto Pandaren Paladin.

But..but...DK's can be any race. D:

[TheGlyphstone]

They didn't bother explaining Worgen or Goblin DKs either,

[Shjade]

I would imagine that from a gameplay perspective there will be no Pandaren DK's because of their dual-faction nature: DKs have their own quest path that does not involve forking to A or H at the end.

From a political perspective, I'm guessing Blizzard wanted to avoid undead pandas in the game.

[Callie Del Noire]

They gave reasons for why there was any but I can't recall at the moment   Of course I'm trying to get patterns for transmog. Enchanted Thorium Plate is a pain to research.

[Wolfy]

I just can't wait to be a female Panda Monk...I think it will be my main. <3

[Aiden]

Timed runs are awesome, I look forward to those challenge modes once more.

The female pandas in the tester area looked the same as male except for a bow on their ears.

Expect a new achievement for mounts in MoP, (my guess) I have over 100 right now and this is without raid mounts, 10/25 man heroic/ dungeon anything (Cata or LK) which can easily add another 10+ to my pages of mounts.

[Primarch]

Who gives a shit about Wow! It's all about Diablo 3 and Heart of the Swarm!

This, right here.

[Jacqueline]

I was a bit dissapointed, I kind of expected more new things about both Diablo 3 and Heart of Swarm, mind you I only play for the stories. I also don't like the new Kerrigan look, somewhow she looked more attractive before!

Maybe a release date you know, but hopefully they will release both game soonish.

[Jacqueline]

Oh something that I just read... the reason for delaying Diablo 3 was because they wanted more time to balance the rest of the difficulty levels, as they spent a lot of time with the normal one. That and making little changes, not massive you know, to the way skills work on the different classes. It looks like they got a lot of feedback from the beta, which will run a bit longer too.

[TheGlyphstone]

Yup - as per Blizzard standard, they'll come out 'when it's ready'. And they mean it too, unlike, say, Oblivion or Bioware - Blizzard's got the commercial muscle to tell their parent company to go shove it when there's pressure to release something unfinished.

[Jacqueline]

Yes that's for sure! I can't wait for Diablo 3, my first character will be a lady demon hunter. The good thing is that I can name her Elenwe without being worried about someone else taking the name, they already announced that there won't be any name issues like in WoW.

[Aiden]

Male Barbadian, named Korgoth! In honor of the one I had in D2!

[Jacqueline]

Sounds brutal, I might play a lady wizard too but I will probably just wait until I finish normal with my lady demon hunter, if I start with alts...

[Shjade]

I may not decide to own Diablo 3.

But if I do, I'll play a female monk.

[Jacqueline]

I like the female monk too, but the background image of the inventory, you know, it shows an artistic portrait of every class... but it's terrible for the female monk, it really looks like a boy even if the in-game model is quite pretty. I know that it would bother me to no end.

[Aiden]

For Wow players the annual pass is a good deal, I don't need it since my account is flagged for the Tyrel mount already but not a bad purchase.

I am buying the special edition box, its tradition.

Damn you blizzard, give me back my soul.

[Shjade]

I like the female monk too, but the background image of the inventory, you know, it shows an artistic portrait of every class... but it's terrible for the female monk, it really looks like a boy even if the in-game model is quite pretty. I know that it would bother me to no end.

What can I say, tomboys do it for me. ;p

[LunarSage]

I've already got the name "Saotome" saved for my Panda Monk.  ;D

"Genma" was sadly already taken.   :-\

[Josietta]

For Wow players the annual pass is a good deal, I don't need it since my account is flagged for the Tyrel mount already but not a bad purchase.

I am buying the special edition box, its tradition.

Damn you blizzard, give me back my soul.

Blizzard doesn't have your soul.. I do! mwhahahaha

and yes annual pass is good. We signed up!  We already pay monthly so why the heck not!?

[Jacqueline]

For people that don't play WoW it's obviously not a good choice, but for those that play regularly then yes it's a really nice gift from Blizzard.

[Aiden]

I have the name Xpress reserved for my panda.  >:)

[Sel Nar]

Only thing I find interesting is that the Diablo III male barbarian is the D2 Barbarian, only 20 years older and with a beard.

[AllieCat]

I've already got the name "Saotome" saved for my Panda Monk.  ;D

"Genma" was sadly already taken.   :-\

Growf!

(you know, considering the other events of Blizzcon, it's too bad we'll never have an aquatransexual (not to mention the other Jusenkyo curses) :D

[Chris Brady]

Male Barbadian, named Korgoth! In honor of the one I had in D2!

He can be the same dood, as the Barbarian is the only character returning from D2

Only thing I find interesting is that the Diablo III male barbarian is the D2 Barbarian, only 20 years older and with a beard.

And grey haired.  Despite the fact he'd be about 38-44 years old.

Still getting it.

As for the Mist of Pandaria, I'm not keen on the idea of the talent changes, they're going to kill the Warrior AGAIN?  Fuck man, they've raped that class six ways through Sunday for the past seven years.  No other class has ever been that brutalized.

[LunarSage]

Growf!

(you know, considering the other events of Blizzcon, it's too bad we'll never have an aquatransexual (not to mention the other Jusenkyo curses) :D

;D

*Is so glad someone else got the reference*

[SinXAzgard21]

I've got three panda names already, and so does the wife.  I am signed up for the annual pass so I'll be playing D3 off and on along with WoW.

[Jacqueline]

He can be the same dood, as the Barbarian is the only character returning from D2
And grey haired.  Despite the fact he'd be about 38-44 years old.

Still getting it.

As for the Mist of Pandaria, I'm not keen on the idea of the talent changes, they're going to kill the Warrior AGAIN?  Fuck man, they've raped that class six ways through Sunday for the past seven years.  No other class has ever been that brutalized.

I didn't know that it was the same barbarian at all, good to know! I know someone that with only 30 years has half of his hair grey.

[Chris Brady]

Yes, but does his face match?  This guy looks OLD, when he shouldn't be looking like his 60s. He's a badass, badasses always look good no matter their age.

Still isn't stopping me from getting the collector's edition though.

[Jacqueline]

He had a tough life of totally annihilating demons. I guess that it makes sense that he looks old. Wiki says that it's the same individual from Diablo 2, that's pretty neat.

I'm not sure if I will buy the collector's edition, the problem is the price as usual. I love the wings.

[Aiden]

I'm used to Blizzard raping my warrior over, I don't bother to DPS anymore with them I just tank, life is so much easier that way.

As for the new changes, I look forward to them, I like the idea of what they are doing. It's not a nerf it's "game balance."  XD

[Jacqueline]

So funny, thanks for the picture Aiden.

By the way, I was thinking about the female barbarian a few hours ago, I kind of wished that they would make her like the old Tyris Flare character from Golden Axe. Okay, she was an amazon, but she could fit as a barbarian! A prettier one, besides you can always dress her appropiately for the game.

[Xanatos]

My precious paladin! -holds up fist and curses Blizz-

[Shjade]

Gee, I wonder what classes the maker of that picture plays.  ::)

[Callie Del Noire]

I'd say either hunter and/or Paladin.

[LunarSage]

I get all of them but the Warrior.  What's the joke with the gear shift lever?

[Jacqueline]

Gee, I wonder what classes the maker of that picture plays.  ::)

I'd vote for Paladin, although the shaman looks pretty... undecided. It made me giggle.

[Callie Del Noire]

I'd vote for Paladin, although the shaman looks pretty... undecided. It made me giggle.

I think it's a bit annoying given my favorite three are the ones with the wildest handles. Hunter, Pali and Shaman.. I can tank my pali but I suck at dps.. even with a 370+ gear average on my dps set. Hunter and Shaman are still meh.. but then I got blues and greens still.

My BIGGEST SCREAMING fit is the damn fact that it's hard to get epic shoulders. You can't buy them.. there is like.. 1 spot for any particular epic shoulders in the heroic troll instances.

[Saerrael]

I'm used to Blizzard raping my warrior over, I don't bother to DPS anymore with them I just tank, life is so much easier that way.

As for the new changes, I look forward to them, I like the idea of what they are doing. It's not a nerf it's "game balance."  XD

*laughs*

Priests do need serious amounts of aid, though. None of their trees actually work as intended. Disc doesn't work. You're meant to use AA, not ignore it like it is now. Holy has one stance left that actually works. Sort of. Maybe. Okay... It doesn't work, but it's pretty...? Shadow is much too RNG to be a reliable dps spec compared to other classes.
But still no one will be able to take away my priest from me. I happily AA in FL and play shiny-sparkly Holy in PuGs and take the crap with a grain of salt until things get fixed.

[Xanatos]

I used to be able to heal in tanking gear! Gone are the days when Paladins were amazing -sobs-. Gone are the days when I healed in tanking gear and stole aggro from a higher level warrior tank with purples while I wore only greens and blues -sobs-!

Who tanks now anyways? If Paladins got nerfed and if warriors still suck, who then? Shamans were never much of a tank. Druids just had hit points but not much else. Do they have Mage tanks now? Rogues just DPSing the crap outa anything that moves? DK? Meh, DK's were never as good as Paladins.

[Callie Del Noire]

My take on tanking is.. I can hold groups better than the warriors of the guild, but single targets I have to fight to keep it. Druids.. our last best druid tank left the guild some time back (we miss the french Canadian dude!) so I can't make a call on it. The DKs do okay.. but typically lose to me or the warriors.

[Shjade]

"Who tanks now," you ask? The same folks who always have: the good tanks.

The majority of each class's playerbase always bitches about being overnerfed all the time compared to all the other classes and blah blah blah. And then there are the players who get shit done regardless. ;p

Of the classes I've played, the only one that felt like it took way too hard a hit from the nerf bat was Warlocks in the transition from BC to LK, when affliction and destruction (specifically the wrecking ball that was 0/21/40) got completely beaten to shit. Pretty much stopped playing it after that - not that the class was unplayable, I just didn't like the new "style" of warlock with the bouncing Haunt dot-tide shenanigans or the chaos-fire silliness in deep destro, and I've never liked relying on a pet so Demo was never appealing. That was one nerf I could see as the cause for justified WTF's on the part of the playerbase. Most of the tears are shed over a few number changes here and there, though, which strikes me as silly. There's a difference between making something weaker and completely removing abilities (siphon life, demo-sac-destro bolts, etc.) from the game. The former is just something you adapt to; the latter tends to dramatically change how a class plays, which is sort of a big deal.

[Xanatos]

I really don't want to sound rude, but you need to read between the lines more. Of course the good players still tank. I know first hand as I was one of the best tanks on my small RP server. Regardless, class nerfs can and do dictate a lot. Skill can only go so far in a game where class powers/abilities determine so much. Its not like a FPS where skill alone determines success. I could be the best mage ever but I still couldn't tank simply because of how the class is set up. Where as in another style game, a space flight simulator game, I could be put up against superior opponents with inferior (to a point) tech and I can still win based on skill alone.

So what I was asking was sorta what Callie answered; what classes are tanking if Paladin has gotten nerfed to holy hell and back? The whole reason Pally's got nerfed was because of their tanking. Healing next, and dps last. They were good(ish) dps, and great healers. Tanks, they were gods.

When I was playing (BC/WotLK), Paladin ruled, everyone else sucked bad. Druid tanks were okay but lacked a lot. Everyone else I pretty much avoided. Paladins were the only ones who could hold aggro over an entire area full of mobs without some leaking out onto the rest of the team. I stole aggro from Warriors without even trying when I healed. It was stupid. I rarely saw a Shaman tank, so I honestly can't speculate too much but I can say they probably saw little usage most likely because they weren't great at it.

[Shjade]

Speaking of reading between the lines...

In BC/LK, I ran raids with a paladin tanking, with a druid tanking, with a warrior tanking, and tanking myself as a DK. The DK's seemed most prone to abruptly going squish on the big numbers fights, but aside from that they all got the job done pretty well with various advantages: druids doing massive damage (for tanks) in addition to holding threat, warriors being basically impossible to out-agro on a single target, etc.

Class nerfs dictate a lot...about how people think of the class. It's rarely the case that you actually "can't tank" with X class just because their shield got nerfed 2% in the last patch or whatever. People might like to act as though it's the end of the world, but that doesn't mean it is. My point was, if "paladins got nerfed and warriors still suck," paladins and warriors are still the ones tanking. They're just used for tanking by the players who aren't sucked up in the hyperbole of how much they got nerfed and suck forever now.

tl;dr - People exaggerate.

[Chris Brady]

I get all of them but the Warrior.  What's the joke with the gear shift lever?

There are about six levels of buffage and nerfing they do.  Each slightly bigger than the last.  Although I don't think they gave a 5th gear one since the huge crush the class got in Open Beta.  Also, 4th is a Nerf.

[LunarSage]

Thank you, Chris.

[Callie Del Noire]

Kyriee (my pali on Silvermoon) is doing pretty good as a group tank. Against bosses with my guild's usual other tanks I can hold agroo pretty good against solo targets, but in boss management we both have to watch things. The warrior I usually tank with does a good job but occasionally we can get some loss to him if he hits well.

Druids tend, from what I've seen, to be harder hitting but need it to make up for less agroo intensive strikes. IE.. they have to hit to get agro.

DKs, they are a bit squishy on occassion but I think that is as much from the fact that their talents make them self-healing to an extent and if a healer doesn't watch them boss smashes can really hurt them quickly.

[Chris Brady]

They've released the new Talent changes on the main site.  I don't care much for them.  That's Diablo's talent system, why are they forcing it into WoW?

Oh well, I'll get use to it as I always have.

[TheGlyphstone]

D3's talent system, you mean? It doesn't look or act anything like D2, and that's the Diablo I'm most familiar with.

[Saerrael]

They've released the new Talent changes on the main site.  I don't care much for them.  That's Diablo's talent system, why are they forcing it into WoW?

Oh well, I'll get use to it as I always have.

How I've understood it is to go with the talent-trees to get rid of the cookie cut builds we have today. I applaud that, to be honest. But I'm sure we'll see certain builds over and over again...

[Shjade]

Yeah, it'll just be new cookie cutter builds that everyone follows in the new system depending on whether you're raiding/pvping/tanking/healing/etc.

[Chris Brady]

From what I see the lack of choices will reinforce cookie cutter builds.

[TheGlyphstone]

That's illogical though, because the plethora of choices in previous talent systems did nothing to stop cookie cutter builds.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which might affect the end result is how easily you can 'respec' your talents - it's supposed to be something you can do in the field in a few seconds. The only purpose for class trainers is to change your spec. There will always be a talent that's mathematically superior to another for a given situation, that's just how math works - but with the ability to change your talent choices on the fly, it gives them more flexibility to design fights where you'll have to in order to get maximum utility.

Just to pick an example completely at random, the first-tier Mage talents: Ring of Frost (much as it is now), Ice Ward (defensive triggered freeze Aoe), or Frostbite (ranged Silence/Freeze). In a PvE raid fight, whether Ring of Frost or Frostbite is superior depends on the mechanics; are there adds to be controlled, or does the boss have a dangerous interruptable attack to silence? One tier down, Blazing Speed could be crucial for a fight heavy on snares/stuns, moreso than Ice Barrier's consistent absorption for fights you can stand in place on.


TLDr: Yes, there will be 'cookie cutter' builds - but Blizzard is giving us the tools to bring our cookie stencils with us to the raid, making talents far more dynamic then they've ever been in the history of the game.

[Sel Nar]

So, basically, WoW is allowing you to do what Guild Wars has been doing for nearly 6 years, only you have to go to a trainer (and possibly pay in-game money) to respec, instead of just shuffling some skills or stat layouts with a few clicks on a character screen?

[Josietta]

Its been that way for the past year that i've been playing. You go to your training, pay gold, and they reset all your talents.

[Saerrael]

That's illogical though, because the plethora of choices in previous talent systems did nothing to stop cookie cutter builds.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which might affect the end result is how easily you can 'respec' your talents - it's supposed to be something you can do in the field in a few seconds. The only purpose for class trainers is to change your spec. There will always be a talent that's mathematically superior to another for a given situation, that's just how math works - but with the ability to change your talent choices on the fly, it gives them more flexibility to design fights where you'll have to in order to get maximum utility.

Just to pick an example completely at random, the first-tier Mage talents: Ring of Frost (much as it is now), Ice Ward (defensive triggered freeze Aoe), or Frostbite (ranged Silence/Freeze). In a PvE raid fight, whether Ring of Frost or Frostbite is superior depends on the mechanics; are there adds to be controlled, or does the boss have a dangerous interruptable attack to silence? One tier down, Blazing Speed could be crucial for a fight heavy on snares/stuns, moreso than Ice Barrier's consistent absorption for fights you can stand in place on.


TLDr: Yes, there will be 'cookie cutter' builds - but Blizzard is giving us the tools to bring our cookie stencils with us to the raid, making talents far more dynamic then they've ever been in the history of the game.

I know it is illogical. I wasn't stating that I thought it would make cookiecut a thing of the past, but that Blizz thinks it will help.

Also. Did you try this for a Holy PvE Paladin? Out of all the different classes and specs I play, I'd say Holy PvE Paladin is basically not getting anything positive out of this.

And, yes, I did see these specializations are 99% PvP >.>

[TheGlyphstone]

I know it is illogical. I wasn't stating that I thought it would make cookiecut a thing of the past, but that Blizz thinks it will help.

Also. Did you try this for a Holy PvE Paladin? Out of all the different classes and specs I play, I'd say Holy PvE Paladin is basically not getting anything positive out of this.

And, yes, I did see these specializations are 99% PvP >.>

I was actually talking to Chris Brady there, not you. I found the comment that this would reinforce cookie cutter builds to be illogical.

[Saerrael]

I was actually talking to Chris Brady there, not you. I found the comment that this would reinforce cookie cutter builds to be illogical.

Hmmz... Sorry, but I don't agree. Players will pick what aids their spec/ the situation they use that spec in the most.

*shrugs and smiles* I don't' think Blizz will ever get this game 'balanced' and versatile at the same time. Doesn't mean I don't like playing it, though.

[TheGlyphstone]

Hmmz... Sorry, but I don't agree. Players will pick what aids their spec/ the situation they use that spec in the most.

Which is what I was saying. ??? 'Cookie cutter builds' are fire-and-forget...you look at the internet, go to the class trainer, respec to the 'best' talent build, and never touch it again unless a patch comes out that changes it. Here, all the relevant talents, attacks, and passive buffs will be baked into your spec itself, and talents will only be tweaks for specific abilities - you'll likely be changing your talent builds every fight, to pick the best bonuses for that specific situation.

[Saerrael]

Which is what I was saying. ??? 'Cookie cutter builds' are fire-and-forget...you look at the internet, go to the class trainer, respec to the 'best' talent build, and never touch it again unless a patch comes out that changes it. Here, all the relevant talents, attacks, and passive buffs will be baked into your spec itself, and talents will only be tweaks for specific abilities - you'll likely be changing your talent builds every fight, to pick the best bonuses for that specific situation.

...there aren't that many variations to specialise towards, though. Which was what I meant. *shrugs*

[Zakharra]

Also. Did you try this for a Holy PvE Paladin? Out of all the different classes and specs I play, I'd say Holy PvE Paladin is basically not getting anything positive out of this.

What Blizz did to Paladins in Cata made me want to cry. It's damned near ruined the class for me and she's a lot more squishy than she used to be (Ret/Holy). My Death Knight and warrior can take blows and fight more opponents than she can and live.