The problem with MMORPGS part II

[Inkidu]

Admittedly I guess you could call the social interaction third-rate. The majority of people take no responsibility for what they say and do.

My main point has been that MMORPGs don't touch their sophisticated brethren in the console or PC market.

[HairyHeretic]

Whatever is marked out is what a non MMO is.

Ok.

The point was. Whenever had you really had to climb something. Actually jump? Most movement in an MMORPG can be done in walking and running.

Depends on the MMO. I've walked, ran, rode, flew, teleported, and so on.

For the last time I'm not talking about MMO's in general I'm talking about the MMORPG. They're turn based or ATB.

I'm not entirely sure we are talking about the same thing. No MMO I play is turn based. They're all real time, love action.

Can you give some examples of a turn based one?

I have the feeling we're talking at cross purposes.

A sense of accomplishment? How good does it really feel beating the last boss of the game if fifteen people do it all around you ever second. (Exaggeration obviously.)

Why should it matter to me what anyone else has done? If I accomplish something I feel good because it's me that did it.

I know someone else might find the appeal but I won't understand why. You're basically saying my opinion is wrong.

Not at all. I'm saying your opinion is simply that .. your opinion. Just the same as my opinion is simply my opinion. Right and wrong don't really enter into it. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

[Inkidu]

I just think it's all a grind. Mass Effect for example is far superior to I suppose Anarchy Online.
When you factor in things like lag, and server malfunction, and things you end up with a really bad experience.

I personally love MMOFPS or MMOSS (Sports sim) or something, but not MMORPS.

[HairyHeretic]

Admittedly I guess you could call the social interaction third-rate. The majority of people take no responsibility for what they say and do.

Possibly the majority of people that you have interacted with. My own experiences have been rather different. Take my CoH clan. When work sent me over to Sweden, several of them travelled for an hour to meet up with me. There have also been a couple of get togethers in England, with people coming from a number of different countries.

My main point has been that MMORPGs don't touch their sophisticated brethren in the console or PC market.

I'm afraid I would have to disagree with that. The graphics in an MMO may not match those on a console, but I find an MMO is a much richer playing area.

[Samael]

The point was. Whenever had you really had to climb something. Actually jump? Most movement in an MMORPG can be done in walking and running.

Actually, the shaman class must use totems. One of those totems can only be gained by climbing up a large mountain, where you need to turn in a quest. It involves jumping over holes in the path, etc. Plus, most of the instances and boss fights need you to do certain things, like moving over certain spaces on the ground in a certain pattern, so you are not hit by magic blasts, and somesuch. Look up "safety dance wow" on youtube for an example.

A sense of accomplishment? How good does it really feel beating the last boss of the game if fifteen people do it all around you ever second. (Exaggeration obviously.)

...Uhm... I really don't know what to say to that.
The only wayto prevent others from beating 'that last boss' would be to have a game build up for one person alone, and then one game for every other person must be completely differently. I mean, how much fun is it beating a boss in XYZs singleplayer mode, knowing that probably the 300,000 other people who bought the game did it too, just some of them probably a lot faster, and others a lot slower?

That said, it feels damn good, because you had to gear up, to plan with your team mates, you had to put up some great strategy to beat those big bads, know the attacks and how to escape them, etc, so, when you manage to beat the big bad, then it's one heck of a feeling. At least to me. Others may feel differently.

I know someone else might find the appeal but I won't understand why. You're basically saying my opinion is wrong.

I don't think anyone says your opinion is wrong.
To some the game just doesn't appeal. To others it does. I mean, it's the same as it is with sex, right? Some people may like D/s, some others may not. Some may like candle play, some others may not, etc. No one is wrong or right.

Admittedly I guess you could call the social interaction third-rate. The majority of people take no responsibility for what they say and do.
My main point has been that MMORPGs don't touch their sophisticated brethren in the console or PC market.

Hm. I do disagree with that. The Social Interaction I had was nothing short of amazing, no matter which guild I was part of. The friendship and camaraderie is incredible with the right people. Not only that, but all too often you even had people of opposite factions help each other on the server I was. It was funny to converse with emotes, but it worked (you cannot -talk- with people of the opposite faction).

I do think you have had a lot of bad experiences though, from the way you talk, which, I can understand, ruin the appeal of the game for someone. I do contest though that the MMOs are not able to compare to the singleplayer games. Another suggestion I would have would be to tell you to look up the wraithgate cinematic from the latest wow expansion.
world of warcraft fight at the wraith gate
But, like mentioned, your opinion is yours, and no one will say you are not entitled to it, I think.

[Oniya]

I'm not entirely sure we are talking about the same thing. No MMO I play is turn based. They're all real time, love action.

I thought those were the Elliquiy games? ;)

[Inkidu]

Trailers don't count. They always lie on all markets console or otherwise.

[Samael]

Trailers don't count. They always lie on all markets console or otherwise.

Uhm... that actually happens ingame.
As part of a quest chain.

[Inkidu]

Uhm... that actually happens ingame.
As part of a quest chain.

Trailer cinematic it's the same thing.

[HairyHeretic]

Flashy graphics do not a good game make.

Hell, I remember the hours I chalked up playing Elite on my ZX Spectrum. A whole 48k of memory, 5 minutes to load the game from a tape recorder, black and white wireframe graphics, but damn was it a good game. :)

[Inkidu]

I personally don't think the MMO in general is accessible enough. Sure you say look a the 2.2 bajillion people but I say that's in the world or the country. I could say how many people in the world or the country like chocolate and come up with a larger number.

I think the MMO is still a rather select group. A group who really knows what to expect. Maybe in the future as the tech becomes more stable I'll be willing to pay for it. Right now it belongs to a specific group with there own language. Literally.   

I agree Hairy. Flashy graphics do not a good game make. Look at the PS3. Graphics aren't the problem. That was a cinematic it was not a representation of actual game play. I've seen WoW game play it's walk up kill walk up kill grind grind grind. Maybe it's different actually playing it, but if it's not fun to watch it's probably not fun to play in my opinion.

I'm a Civ IV fan and could watch that all day. If that provides an alternate viewpoint.

[HairyHeretic]

I personally don't think the MMO in general is accessible enough.

I'm not sure how it could be made more accessable. You need a powerful enough machine (dependent on the game specs), and a net connection.

A powerful enough machine will be required for any PC game, and broadband is become better as time goes on.

I think the MMO is still a rather select group. A group who really knows what to expect. Maybe in the future as the tech becomes more stable I'll be willing to pay for it. Right now it belongs to a specific group with there own language. Literally.   

Again, I disagree. When I started playing, I didn't know what to expect. I got killed regularly. Over time, I learned what worked and what didn't, what I was good at and what I wasn't, and got better.

I believe the tech is stable enough at present. Is there downtime? Of course there is. Downtime is unavoidable. Anything that is online is going to have downtime.

I agree Hairy. Flashy graphics do not a good game make. Look at the PS3. Graphics aren't the problem. That was a cinematic it was not a representation of actual game play. I've seen WoW game play it's walk up kill walk up kill grind grind grind. Maybe it's different actually playing it, but if it's not fun to watch it's probably not fun to play in my opinion.

Well, you can always find out you know. A lot of games do 2 week or 10 day trials. Why don't you give a few of them a go and see if your opinion changes any?

I'm a Civ IV fan and could watch that all day. If that provides an alternate viewpoint.

My preferred non online games are strategic. Conquer the world, conquer the universe stuff. Not exactly flashy graphics and deep involved storylines .. but the games are what I make of them.

Same with the MMOs, for me at least.

[RubySlippers]

This is a digression but my main problem with the MMORPG to be waste of a game.

What you get don't get with MMORPGS:

1. An engaging battle system that breaks away from the mold of turn for turn fighting Nope turn based stat combat.

2. An engaging story that matters! No, how about shameless justification for a game?

3. A sense of accomplishment beyond the next level or piece of swag! Yeah good luck your more insignificant than the Star War Christmas special.

4. A free-roam environment that lets you explore it fully and at your own leisure!  Except jumping, climbing, swimming are irrelevant or not even included.

MMORPGs are stone aged equivalents of modern gaming and honestly, I just don't see the appeal. Having a ton of people to do it with doesn't make up for it.

Many do just suck but I have to admit I LIKE Pardus and its actually fun to play for free. Besides have a great deal of politics the game mechanics are smooth and you can go in many different directions from peaceful merchant to a slave trafficker or even selling body parts on the black market.

Must I add there are ZERO downloads to run it being browser based.

[Inkidu]

I get that there are trials but then I still have to pay for it if I like it.

Maybe it's just too much freedom. There is such a thing. Letting people run around and do everything whenever they want or whatever. Maybe I'll like casual MMORPGS better. I have tried a lot of them though and never been remotely satisfied. I guess I'm an order freak. I like to stand out in my games. Probably a bit pathetic.

I don't have the money to waste on something I'm not going to like, but that means I don't have the money to spend on MMOs I would like.

[Samael]

I personally don't think the MMO in general is accessible enough. Sure you say look a the 2.2 bajillion people but I say that's in the world or the country. I could say how many people in the world or the country like chocolate and come up with a larger number.

Well, WoW tiself is right now at... 12.5 Million players, I think, and it's expected to grow some more, now that it's also available in Russia. MMO market is continuing to grow very actively, and is doing so since about 10 years. Wow, (again, for simplicities sake, since its the game I used to play much), is billed as a very very casual friendly game, and it's continued to be developed in that way, making all aspects of it accessible to anyone who wishes to see them. (Which does not sit right with the hardcore playerz, but they have long since left behind).

I think the MMO is still a rather select group. A group who really knows what to expect. Maybe in the future as the tech becomes more stable I'll be willing to pay for it. Right now it belongs to a specific group with there own language. Literally.   

I dunno... In my last guild we had kids of the age of 9-12 playing the game, and they were smart and good players. I think WoW has really developed to the point where everyone can pick it up. I have fond memories of doing a quest chain with a 65 year old lady, who would tell me about her grand children while we beat up on the big Monsters.

I agree Hairy. Flashy graphics do not a good game make. Look at the PS3. Graphics aren't the problem. That was a cinematic it was not a representation of actual game play. I've seen WoW game play it's walk up kill walk up kill grind grind grind. Maybe it's different actually playing it, but if it's not fun to watch it's probably not fun to play in my opinion.

Trust me in that it -is- very much different when played. There is a ton of things you can do beyond grinding. From following the quest chains, to training your professions, to explore the world (you actually get XP for doing that. Every time you find a new place you haven't been before, you get XP, which counts to your levelling. You can level by simply running around). I had a great deal of fun fishing and cooking, for example. And then there is the "vanity pet" part of the game :) Where you can collect dozens of non-combat pets, just for fun, or can get acess to potions which make you look like a skeleton, or shrink you, or grow you, or turn you into a small dragon, etc..

I'm a Civ IV fan and could watch that all day. If that provides an alternate viewpoint.

I -love- Civ IV! I played it a ton last summer and I couldn't get enough of that.
Strategy games of every kind are always to be found on my PC. Hell, I still end up playing Sim City 2k or the old Battle Isle games now and then. Good choice there.

[Inkidu]

I think a good game is a lot like a good movie. It draws you in. MMORPGs don't do that, at least on my standing, because every time I see a hobbit named Terminator XJ33 it really breaks the mystique.

[HairyHeretic]

Thats down to the player though, not the game.

[Inkidu]

Getting drawn in?

[Samael]

I do agree with Heretic. It is dependant on each person and how very much they can or will be influenced by that. Some it doesn't faze at all. Some it does.

[HairyHeretic]

Breaking the feel of the enviroment. Silly names are kinda annoying, which is why I prefer to play on servers that limit those.

[Inkidu]

Breaking the feel of the enviroment. Silly names are kinda annoying, which is why I prefer to play on servers that limit those.

I didn't say it broke the game I said it broke the feel. That's a cinematic thing. If a movie doesn't draw you in it's not because of the watcher. I can see how my other points are player preference but no it's the game that has to do the work.

[HairyHeretic]

I didn't say it broke the game I said it broke the feel. That's a cinematic thing. If a movie doesn't draw you in it's not because of the watcher.

Yes and no. If I don't like, for sake of arguement, horror movies, I'm never likely to enjoy one, no matter how good the film is.

I can see how my other points are player preference but no it's the game that has to do the work.

Again, I say you get out of the game what you put into it. I realise our experiences have been different, but for the main I've enjoyed almost all my time in MMOs. I've encountered a few assholes, certainly. I've also encountered people that went out of their way to help me. That gave me cash or gear to get me started, showed me a few pointers, taught me a couple of useful tricks.

In return, I've done the same. I've hung around the Hollows in CoH with my high (relatively speaking) level healer, randomly healing the newbies. I wasn't getting XP for it. I could have put my time to 'better use', but when I was when they are now, someone helped me out for no reward. I can do the same.

And that improves the game that little bit more, for everyone.

In my opinion, of course.

[consortium11]

I barely play any mmo games of any type and have not in years, so I'm not the best person to ask and may end up taking this a little bit off/topic.

Although, if Eve Online counts as a mmorpg then it seems to avoid most of the issues you mention.

But, back to my main (side)point.

You mention Fallout 3 as a game you play, so I assume it's a game you like.

I agree with you in that I don't use followers, but that's mainly because they're all horrible or game-breaking, and in plot terms several of them completely break the suspension of disbelief.

But, back to the list of issues you have the mmorpgs, in the Fallout 3 context:

1. An engaging battle system that breaks away from the mold of turn for turn fighting Nope turn based stat combat.

Fallout 3 may not be turn-based, but it is neither engaging or breaking any mold. It is a shoddy FPS where the rpg elements have little to no actual effect. Other games have implemented a far better system along the same lines.

2. An engaging story that matters! No, how about shameless justification for a game?

The Fallout 3 storyline is full of plot holes, is completely non-engaging, has one of the worst endings ever and, as has been a habit with Bethesda games, you're not central to the plot in any real way... you're a lacky/minion and that's about it.

3. A sense of accomplishment beyond the next level or piece of swag! Yeah good luck your more insignificant than the Star War Christmas special.

See above. In addition Fallout 3 pretty moves all choice or nuance in how you play your character (or even what type of character you create). Your actions have little to no effect on the game world (a big step back from earlier Fallout games), and there were very few things that made me feel like I'd actually achieved something.

4. A free-roam environment that lets you explore it fully and at your own leisure!  Except jumping, climbing, swimming are irrelevant or not even included.

This is true, and probably the best thing about Fallout 3, although the plot and basic logical inconsistancies actually detracts from it as a post-Apoc simulator. That said, the fact that the game ends as soon as you finish the main quest (a step back from Fallout 2... and even Oblivion) takes away from the leisure aspect.

/hijack

[Inkidu]

You try using small guns with no perception in Fallout 3 and see how far you get. Fallout 3 is not a FPS just like calling Mass Effect (Another game I like an play and does every element of its game play extraordinarily well) a shooter. They're action rpgs I've actually not seen an action rpg mmo. I'm downloading a couple right now. I'm more disappointed in the traditional style MMORPG

The thing is I'm awesome in Fallout 3 without VATS because my perception is high. I can cap raiders with a pistol at twenty yards, fifty if I try real hard.

But that's your opinion.

[consortium11]

I guess it's a personal difference then... outside of V. Hard mode both perception and weapons skills made little notable difference to me. In V. Hard mode the extra damage high skills offer becomes useful just to offset the fact you'd need to shoot a raider a dozen times in the head to kill him... with lower damage you find you're both running out of ammo and your gun is falling apart.

I agree that mass Effect is a great game, but on the Fallout 3 being an rpg/action rpg, probably... but only just. I'd argue that a game like Deus Ex is actually far superior as an rpg, even though it's nearly entire linear (not that Fallout 3 does much to change that) and Stalker deals with the combat side of an action rpg better.

That said a lot of my issues with Fallout 3 are to do with the plot/setting and looking at in the light of Fallout 1/2 as opposed to Oblivion with Guns, which is a fairer way to look at it (as I enjoy Oblivion a lot more, despite it being similar to Fallout 3). Even so, I still felt I was playing an FPS with RPG elements tacked on... and not always tacked on well.

/hijack

Back on topic, I actually gave some more thought to it, and again, as I play exactly no mmorpgs at this stage, I'm not necessarily the best person to ask. I agree on it feeling wierd to have to keep paying for a game I've already bought. Two people I live with play an extrodinary amount of WoW, and I thought back to the times I've been chilling in their room when they've been playing and there does seem to be a large amount of grinding (even if it's just running round searching for that special flower). On the bigger battles I observed it also felt like they weren't really making a difference. On the smaller quests where each character had a defined role however it felt a lot different. Their character was a tank and had a deliberate job... just as everyone else did, and if any player screwed up the entire group would fail. I'm not sure if I'd prefer that to say Baldur's Gate where each character also had a role, but I controlled whether they screwed up or not. I guess it also gets to the point about idiots playing (Thinks of a certain Leroy Jenkins...)

I can see why people play them, but it's just not for me. I think the constantly having to pay for something is what gets me on the whole, as there's a lot of games I can pay for once and then get a solid 20-30 hours out of (at least)... and that's without mods to extend gameplay.