Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**

[TwilightJester]

So i am waiting a week or two to go see it, but i am one of the select few who loves spoilers! So yeah give me spoilers!!!
((everyone is entitled to an opinion but no negativity on here. I know a lot of fan hate the new movies. I loved the force awakens so dont post any negative opinions of the movie on here.))
Anyone die?
Is like actually the bad guy?
Dose Rey go to the dark side?
Or dose Kylo go good??
I need to know all the things.

[Caeli]

I haven't watched it yet (going tonight) so no spoilers, but I am SO excited to see Kelly Marie Tran as Rose Tico.  She is so dorky and down to earth and real and relatable as a person.

[TwilightJester]

just a warning i posted this specifically for spoilers so they might come up on this thread XD

[Caeli]

I'll come back after I've watched it. ;D

[SithLordOfSnark]

I'm following this because I don't care about spoilers either.

[RubySlippers]

Snoke died by Ren and he is taking over wanting to smash the entire old order of things and is still nuts.

Luke died but sent his spectral form to mess with Ren and helped the rebels escape.

Plasma died I think.

Lea survived using the force.

Rey is the last Jedi and parentage unknown still, my guess she is a force avatar an ancient lineage of beings who embody the living forces light side.

Chewy killed and tried to eat the little furry creatures in the preview and one of the little guys gave him the sad face making him feel guilty as hell, cooked critter looked like chicken.

Fin has a girlfriend and well why, who cares.

A scoundrel betrayed them failing in a long shot plan and will get his in the next movie I'm sure what a sleaze.

That's it for now and Snoke was a stupid wussy who forget the dark side apprentice kills the master and takes their place.

Hints the Knights of Ren are some of Luke's former students so are likely force users so I feel that will come into play in the next movie.

[TwilightJester]

Oooh !!! Sounds good!!!
Wait what happens with hux? And Poe? And wtf .....finn has a gf **eyeroll**

[RubySlippers]

Well a girl who loves him, he seems to be reciprocating later on.

Oh Hux is a big asshole, he is also dumb he saw Snoke and his elite personal guard dead and came in yelling at Ren there is no leaders and well he force choked the man until he caved and called Ren the new Supreme Commander. I'm sure ,well he was passed out at the time he came in, Hux wanted to kill Ren and he woke up and well was a powerful force user.

Poe was awesome as first a crazy fighter pilot and then after a entire bomber squadron died off was demoted but after a crazy plan to help the resistance which was down to three capital ships ,three, he was forced to mutiny and well lost. But he was awesome.

Oh did I mention in a flashback Luke came in to student Ren, lite his lightsaber and was going to kill him as he slept but Ren woke up seeing his master ready to kill him and he defended himself and well killed his students implied minus some who turned to the dark side and it had two perspectives sine Luke stopped and wasn't going to kill him but Ren saw his master with a lite lightsaber and reacted in self defense.

And there is wonderful rich peoples casino segment you will love.

[TwilightJester]

:O wow wow!! i need to go see this shit XD Thanks peeps for the spoilers. I wanna do a star wars Rp now holy shit. Im dying to Rp as Kylo Ren.

[RubySlippers]

I wished they plugged Jar Jar in maybe at the Casino as a visiting dignitary from Naboo, my dad loved his character and saw the movie with me.

[SithLordOfSnark]

I wished they plugged Jar Jar in maybe at the Casino as a visiting dignitary from Naboo, my dad loved his character and saw the movie with me.

Jar Jar was the most annoying character in the history of characters. LOL

[RubySlippers]

I just think it would have been fun to have Jar Jar someplace in the movie background. My dad loved him like I said.  ;D

[TwilightJester]

I would honestly laugh my fucking ass off it that happened.

[RubySlippers]

Exactly a nod to the cheese and this whole movie was a fun, cheesy in spots and fun 'popcorn movie' and that is good enough for me.  ;D

[TwilightJester]

Thats all i ask for....i feel like im going to get shot for saying this but force awakens was my favorite star wars movie...and i liked the prequels.....**shields self from the missiles.**

[Markus]

Has a cameo Yoda does

[AmberStarfire]

I confess I was hoping for a bit of a Poe/Finn love story there or even just a bit of sexual tension, but I guess they decided not to.

I really like the Kylo/Rey thing when they talk. That was awesome. :D

I'm not sure I like how they approached the concept of Luke. I feel like he deserved better treatment in the movie than that.

[TwilightJester]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who wanted poexfinn.
I hope the relationship with this girl dose not feel forced .
I'm excited about the kylo/Rey stuff even though I'm kylux trash but I know that's not happening xD
And yeah it kinda sounds like luke didn't get enough love in this movie.

[RubySlippers]

They killed Akbar though but if he was around they would have brought the lets go hack the ship and deactivate the device plan and would have cleared the mission, long shot last hope moves so far worked out well all the other times, so needed a weenie who wanted to play it safe in charge. But she went out in style.

[AmberStarfire]

TwilightJester: I guess all we can do is wait and see where the story goes after this movie.

When's the next one out, by the way? Is it this time next year or the year after?

[RubySlippers]

2019, a Han movie will be out in 2018.  ;D

[Shekinah]

yep what Ruby said, Solo will be out next year, then the last part of this trilogy, then normally there should be another stand alone movie like Rogue One and Solo.
Originally the plan was for Boba Fett movie but because it's hard to do so, they aren't sure yet as to what path to take or on about who the movie will be about.
Also there are plans to make another trilogy after that

[TwilightJester]

Damn I kinda wanted a obi movie >.>
Who's gonna play solo? I thought Harrison hated playing him.

[Shekinah]

Rumors are that it will be Alden Ehrenreich as a young solo
It will be about his younger years when he was a smuggler and doing the Kessel Run :)
hmmm obi is already kinda been told a lot about with the episode 1-3, the clone wars series and even his appearances in 4-6
would have loved to see a young yoda myself

[AmberStarfire]

Damn, two years wait. Oh well, what can you do? :)

[Shekinah]

Hope that the Solo movie is as good as Rogue One, helps ease the wait. After all it has been two years since The Force Awakens came out and that also seemed a long time but yeah Rogue one certainly helped with the wait for me ^_^

[Aiden]

One year waits, two really, between movies is cool with me. We still have marvel movies in between all that.

[Shekinah]

indeed, tons of other great movies to come. Marvel and others.
Just star wars is still love

[AmberStarfire]

That's true, there are a lot of other great movies coming out.

Rogue One turned out pretty well IMO, so hopefully the Han Solo one will too. It could go either way, but I think they'll do a good job with it.

[SithLordOfSnark]

2019, a Han movie will be out in 2018.  ;D

I thought The Last Jedi was the last Star Wars movie other then the Han Solo movie..

[wander]

I heard as dated last week that both the Boba Fett and Obi-Wan movies are still in development. The Obi-Wan movie has a working title and is heavily hinted to show the character on Tattoine between eps 3 and 4.

And yep, after this trilogy, we're getting Rian Johnson heading Eps 10-12 for a new trilogy with, I expect, all new characters, given the ending of The Last Jedi and also how Daisy Ridley has said herself she's done with Star Wars after doing Episode 9. Clearly she's getting offers for other projects and wants to do other things.

[TwilightJester]

They are really going all out with this star wars shit XD don't get me wrong im excited. i am a huge Marvel fan as well >_> kinda more excited for the newest avenger movie then anything else right now, and last Jedi since i don't know when ill be able to see that one still.

[HannibalBarca]

Most of the Han Solo movie was already shot, but the Disney brass didn't like the direction it was being taken by the tandem directors (in a comedy direction), so they fired them, and hired Ron Howard to recut, reshoot, whatever it took.

I don't know, I think Luke went out like a boss, saving the galaxy and then becoming one with the Force on his own terms, just like Obi-Wan did.  Snoke's death, though, surprised me--he got punked by Kylo...I expected more from him.  Then again, we've seen villains come back, so you never know.

[wander]

It does make me think that Rian Johnson took some of Abrams pre-planned stuff and went his own way with it. The way certain plot threads were handled seems very much... 'Rocks fall, clean slate' sort of thing. The most obvious being Snoke and his backstory (too much stuff hinted in other media, even the visual dictionary for The Last Jedi hinted at Snoke being possibly the First of the Jedi Order), though also Rey's parentage.

Daisy mentioned after TFA got released she felt Rey's parentage was super obvious and was surprised when her friends had no idea who they might be. To me, that hints (given the original script) at a Skywalker parentage given certain elements, though this seems to have been shunted aside. However one theory I really disliked that I'm glad they didn't go with was her being essentially a rebirth of Anakin, that she was The Chosen One born from the Force as someone destined to bring balance to it when it veers away from it. Whilst it worked somewhat for Anakin as a one-off deal (and in a deleted element from Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine flat out tells Anakin he was born due to Plagueis' ability to create life), let's be honest and admit there are elements to Rey at least in TFA of Mary-Sueism and her being a golden child space jesus wouldn't have helped that.

That said, Abrams is back for Episode 9 and it was stated Snoke manipulated Kylo and Rey's connection to the Force. He can still come by and retcon back whatever plot arcs and elements he wanted to cover and end for the final film of Rey's story to close the book on the chapter as he planned to.

[Arkaniel]

I loved the movie.

I detected a bit of Poe x Rey vibe when they met. I think that could be great. I don’t think crazy REN should be redeemed... because, hey, even if he is, he’s still a patricidal war criminal who should go to jail for life, so I don’t know how that would even realistically work anymore, haha. Besides him being utterly crazy.

I thought they purposefully made it appear Luke could be Rey’s Father in TFA, but I’m glad for the fact they didn’t. Luke didn’t/doesn’t deserve to become the father who left his daughter on a trash world. Still, her parentage is in question. I’m actually thinking the new Force avatar born like Anakin will be a good possibility if they decide Kylo was lying about her parents.

Hux is fun. And Finn became even more likeable than he already was, while Poe was awesome.

I had expected to go a little bit different, though with nearly the same end result, so I’m still happy. I thought: hey, Luke is here! Oh, wow! Jedi! Entire resistance fleet from all over the galaxy jumps in fro hyperspace. They didn’t go that angle, sadly.

[HannibalBarca]

I'm disappointed I didn't realize Luke was just projecting an illusion of himself.  After all, they clearly showed he was using Anakin's lightsaber--after we all saw it get ripped in two by Rey and Kylo.  But still, even knowing that, seeing Luke still standing there after that barrage of firepower was awesome...and then Kylo's look of utter fear after was even better.  Then, to top it all, even as the villain, he swallowed his fear and faced him one-on-one.  Sweet!

[wander]

If you watch it again, he doesn't leave red marks on the salt layer of Crait either.  ;)

[Andronica]

Just got back early this morning from a very late showing, and I loved it!

My only criticism is that I wish there was more time spent on Rey-Ben-Luke than on drawing out Holdo's last stand and Rose/Finn's plan. There wasn't any chemistry there.

Anyone else notice Rey started calling him Ben after Luke told her the truth of what happened that night? I loved their communication through the Force and their interactions always carry a nice weight to them. Plus they had awesome synergy fighting together in Snoke's throne room.

I also liked the dark/light side mosaic in the cave of both sides coming together, and how the water was rippling toward the center while Luke was projecting himself on Crait. I'd love to see Ben redeemed by Rey in the next movie or so, find a happy medium between light and dark, and the two go off to train a new generation of younglings on the island. c:

(I have a huge soft spot for redemption stories and cliche sad, angry villains - Ben needs a good slap followed by a hug from Rey)

[mia h]

The Obi-Wan movie has a working title and is heavily hinted to show the character on Tattoine between eps 3 and 4.

I wouldn't be 100% certain about that, Star Wars: Rebels had Obi-Wan turn up on more than one occasion even having him and Darth Maul face off on Tattoine for the final time. As that's all supposed to be cannon it doesn't leave them much to do with Obi-Wan.

I'm disappointed I didn't realize Luke was just projecting an illusion of himself.

It was one of those things I half noticed, as Luke had a haircut and dyed his beard between the island and "not Hoth"

Anyway just came back from seeing it and I loved it. As I was leaving I couldn't help but smile as I overheard a couple of guys saying "I'm not really sure what happened there." There was a lot going on and it never really slowed down, even the slow moments were intense.

I admit it hardly scores major observational skill points but I did love Yoda yanking Luke's chain by blowing up the tree as both he and I knew Rey had already stolen the books. Not having a rebel fleet come in and save the day was a nice touch, people are scared and not willing to risk limited assets in a futile gesture leaving the new leaders of the Resistance a lot of work to do between the movies.

[TwilightJester]

I still have yet to see it, but i talked to my coworker about the scene where Luke died??? but it sounded kind of vague did he really die??
I could be just interpreting what he said completely wrong just curious what other people thought who watched it. Going to see it Tuesday officially so im excited.

[HannibalBarca]

He went out on his own terms, alone, and joined the Force.

[wander]

Disappeared like Obi-Wan and Yoda both did. My thoughts given rumours he is signed for Ep.9 is he'll turn up as a Force Ghost like they could do.

[Arkaniel]

Disappeared like Obi-Wan and Yoda both did. My thoughts given rumours he is signed for Ep.9 is he'll turn up as a Force Ghost like they could do.

Considering how powerful he is supposed to be and hat Yoda could do as a force ghost, he could still be Rey’s trainer. That was some mean powerful force projection ;)

[Deamonbane]

Disappointments?

Rey's Parentage: I had some theories on that, but in the end, it seems like such a large part of Rey's character and they just... tossed it aside. Even if what Kylo said is true, it felt glossed over, like a director didn't want to deal with that. I get it, the film is packed to bursting as is, but it could have been addressed a bit better.

Snoke's Passing: The dude is seriously powerful. He's old, he's got scars, he knows his way around the manipulation game. Not only was his death anticlimactic and took me out of the scene entirely (Honestly, a Rey-Kylo team-up against him would have fulfilled the point of the scene a bit better than the duel with the guards) but again, it seems like something that won't be resolved. Who the fuck is/was Snoke? How did he come to be the Supreme Leader, one that is respected and feared on par with Darth Sidious? If he was meant to be duped and wiped away like that, why did they bring him in in the first place? So much unresolved potential that it made me a bit angry.

High Points

Luke's Passing: On his own terms, feeling and acting like a Jedi Master (that shoulder wipe, though). Watching him say goodbye to Leia was particularly touching for me. Dunno if it was filmed before or after Carrie's passing, but it did feel like Mark saying goodbye to her.

Rey: Still something of a Mary Sue, but we're seeing some darkness in her. Character progression.

BB-8, Finn, Poe and Rose: The true heroes of the film. Humans and robots, making mistakes, running around, trying to make a difference without any big 'the Force' to help them out. Lots of character progression. Setbacks, overcoming the obstacles, and surviving against impossible odds. I could do with more of the films centered around them and less about Light vs. Dark side.

Overall, a fun sci-fi flick. A lot of people are saying that it's a remake of the Empire Strikes Back, but it certainly lacks the emotional weight, for me at least. It managed to be creative, but the film and plot got bogged down with the whole.... light-dark thing. Wish they could just settle on a Grey side, and get going already.

It's a flawed film, and it could have been a lot better. It also could have been a lot worse. Still holding out hope for Obi-Wan to make an appearance in the next installation. I miss Ewan's sass.

[Cold Heritage]

Rey's Parentage: I had some theories on that, but in the end, it seems like such a large part of Rey's character and they just... tossed it aside. Even if what Kylo said is true, it felt glossed over, like a director didn't want to deal with that. I get it, the film is packed to bursting as is, but it could have been addressed a bit better.

If Kylo is telling the truth, then I kind of like that. It's neat to have the Force just manifest in this random person instead of being tied to who your parents were (like how in the EU they made big deal about the Skywalker bloodline).

[CaptainNexus616]

I am all for Rey just being a nobody. This franchise has always been about how the Skywalkers were super important. Anakin, Luke, and Ben which by all accounts was fine. However the idea that you DON'T have to have their heritage to make a difference in the galaxy is a great angle.

And it could work wonders for Rey's character. She wants to know who her parents are. To me, she was hoping they were something important on some level thus making her own existence relevant. To find out they were nothing special hits hard.

It makes you ask the more difficult question.

"If they were worth nothing, then what am I worth?"

[HannibalBarca]

Most adventure/quest stories are best when the protagonist is an everyman (or woman): Harry Potter, Wizard of Oz, Luke Skywalker.  Throw in the orphan archetype, and you have no familial obligations to hold them down from heading off into the big blue and making something of themselves.

Sure, Rey is overpowered, but again, what do you call Harry being able to fly a broom from day one like a boss?  Or Luke, with a handful of hours trained by Obi-Wan, sending two proton torpedoes at a 90 degree angle into a six foot hole?  Or a completely untrained Anakin winning a pod race and blowing up a droid command ship?  Shit, Indiana Jones is one giant Marty Stu, not to mention Captain Kirk.  it works for the genre.  Sometimes it works in reverse: see Big Trouble In Little China and Jack Burton.

Someday, I want to see a droid in Star Wars be force sensitive or a force user.  I read two science fiction novels by Isaac Asimov (Robots of Dawn and Robots and Empire) where one robot character, by random chance during his construction, was given mental powers.  Asimov really hit the concept hard (it was one of his favorites) about artificial intelligence, once self-aware, being granted human rights.  I can imagine a future Star Wars movie revealing that R2-D2 is a force user, and has been helping the good guys win here and there, silently, in his own humble way.

[wander]

On Rey and the elephant in the room on Mary Sueisms... I was thinking on that line of thought earlier and what made people take so much exception to her over other escapist characters built to be badass. And I came up with the conclusion that she had no character flaws/complications.

I'm not a HP fan so I can't talk much about him, though Luke was pretty whiney, somewhat naive, was pretty much stuck where he was and had to do what his Uncle told him til he was killed and sure, he did a one in a million shot, though that was at the end of the film when before he got jumped by sand-people and was not gifted with the Force much at all, slowly being directed by Obi-Wan. Honestly, Han was more the Mary Sue though even he had flaws (money hungry, clearly a wanted con, sketchy reputation, abrasive, so on and so on).

Indy: Phobia of Snakes off the top of my head, probably more. Kirk: Womanizer, Impulsive, probably more. Just something that makes the character more believable they're a person rather than a force.

Point being, I couldn't really think of a character flaw/complication for Rey. Something that defined her that happened to impede her perfection in any real way.

[HannibalBarca]

Well, I can agree with there being little to no character flaws with Rey.  Unless you count being a cypher that was unloved and abandoned by her family as a flaw.  The obvious loneliness she lived with on Jakku, that was pointed out by Kylo when he read her mind, made me sympathetic to her...but she has very little else to point out as flaws, true.  Not to toot my own horn, but I absolutely crave writing deeply flawed characters.  J.J. should have contacted me as far as character development for his TFA script :P

[TwilightJester]

Well, I can agree with there being little to no character flaws with Rey.  Unless you count being a cypher that was unloved and abandoned by her family as a flaw.  The obvious loneliness she lived with on Jakku, that was pointed out by Kylo when he read her mind, made me sympathetic to her...but she has very little else to point out as flaws, true.  Not to toot my own horn, but I absolutely crave writing deeply flawed characters.  J.J. should have contacted me as far as character development for his TFA script :P

I feel ya. Odd enough i still love Rey. Shes a lovable Mary sue unlike most. Characters like Bella swan i cant stand. 

[Cold Heritage]

Most adventure/quest stories are best when the protagonist is an everyman (or woman): Harry Potter, Wizard of Oz, Luke Skywalker.  Throw in the orphan archetype, and you have no familial obligations to hold them down from heading off into the big blue and making something of themselves.

Sure, Rey is overpowered, but again, what do you call Harry being able to fly a broom from day one like a boss?  Or Luke, with a handful of hours trained by Obi-Wan, sending two proton torpedoes at a 90 degree angle into a six foot hole?  Or a completely untrained Anakin winning a pod race and blowing up a droid command ship?  Shit, Indiana Jones is one giant Marty Stu, not to mention Captain Kirk.  it works for the genre.  Sometimes it works in reverse: see Big Trouble In Little China and Jack Burton.

A fair point, but Superman III and IV sucked and it wasn't because Big Blue's only weakness was green rocks. And I say that as someone who likes Superman. I'm not sure if it was in this thread or the other one where someone made a point about how a franchise like Star Wars having such heavy cultural cache and investment from so many that there's all of these disparate and irreconcilable expectations, but I think for Rey the execution just didn't work for a lot of people and her being overpowered just didn't work for them in the way it worked with any of the characters you mention.

Although I'd put money that people hated Anakin and people only remember kid Anakin for memes about things being or not being pod-racing, and for angsty teen Anakin for memes about him being a creeper to Padme and hating sand.

Someday, I want to see a droid in Star Wars be force sensitive or a force user.  I read two science fiction novels by Isaac Asimov (Robots of Dawn and Robots and Empire) where one robot character, by random chance during his construction, was given mental powers.  Asimov really hit the concept hard (it was one of his favorites) about artificial intelligence, once self-aware, being granted human rights.  I can imagine a future Star Wars movie revealing that R2-D2 is a force user, and has been helping the good guys win here and there, silently, in his own humble way.

There was a comic that had an R2 type robot who could use the Force. It didn't amount to much, if memory serves - I think Luke's uncle was going to buy that particular unit instead of R2-D2 and it used the Force to work things so that Luke's uncle bought R2-D2 and C3-P0 instead. But the page made it out that this was important and if Luke's uncle had bought the Force using R2 Bad Things would have happened.

[WindFish]

I eye-rolled so hard that I think I saw the back of my brain.

https://www.cnet.com/news/angry-fans-petition-erase-last-jedi-star-wars-canon/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0g&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5a3902c700bd470007d207ae&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

The entitlement is strong with these ones.

Most adventure/quest stories are best when the protagonist is an everyman (or woman): Harry Potter, Wizard of Oz, Luke Skywalker.  Throw in the orphan archetype, and you have no familial obligations to hold them down from heading off into the big blue and making something of themselves.

Sure, Rey is overpowered, but again, what do you call Harry being able to fly a broom from day one like a boss?  Or Luke, with a handful of hours trained by Obi-Wan, sending two proton torpedoes at a 90 degree angle into a six foot hole?  Or a completely untrained Anakin winning a pod race and blowing up a droid command ship?  Shit, Indiana Jones is one giant Marty Stu, not to mention Captain Kirk.  it works for the genre.  Sometimes it works in reverse: see Big Trouble In Little China and Jack Burton.

This is why I tend to ignore the arguments that say "x character is a Mary Sue/Stu". You could say that for nearly every protagonist in the fantasy/sci-fi/action genres. Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Anakin Skywalker, Aragorn, Indiana Jones, Captain Kirk, John McClaine etc all follow the same trope and nobody complains about them. It's always the characters around them that are much more interesting.

Rey does need more development, but by no means does she reach Bella Swan territory. *shudders from Twilight flashbacks*

[TwilightJester]

So i finally just saw the movie. I still don't understand all the hate im seeing with this movie. I thought it was a great addition.
I loved that they kept puppet Yoda first off! It gave me a nostalgic vibe. I didn't feel like it was tacky like people are saying.
every scene with Carrie phisher made me emotional. ((okay the whole movie made me emotional))
Uh and the fucking Reylo in this movie was strong holy shit!! I love that she dosn't have famous parents and she comes to grips with the fact that they just left her. I loved how they kind of explored dark Rey a bit. We know its not going to be a thing, but it was interesting. As much as i love Kylo Ren i see him dying in the next movie...i don't see this character getting a redemption arc. Its kind of an important message to people. You can't save everyone. Im still processing the movie ill have a more constructed opinion in a little while , but A fucking plus in my books.

[Nostalgia]

I eye-rolled so hard that I think I saw the back of my brain.

https://www.cnet.com/news/angry-fans-petition-erase-last-jedi-star-wars-canon/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0g&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5a3902c700bd470007d207ae&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

The entitlement is strong with these ones.

This is why I tend to ignore the arguments that say "x character is a Mary Sue/Stu". You could say that for nearly every protagonist in the fantasy/sci-fi/action genres. Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Anakin Skywalker, Aragorn, Indiana Jones, Captain Kirk, John McClaine etc all follow the same trope and nobody complains about them. It's always the characters around them that are much more interesting.

Rey does need more development, but by no means does she reach Bella Swan territory. *shudders from Twilight flashbacks*

Harry, Luke, Anakin, Indy, (arguably Kirk) and McClane get pwned throughout their movies. They're impulsive, whiny, SUPER whiny, not as good at fighting as the guys around them. They do the right thing anyway. It makes us like them.

And Aragorn isn't the main character of LOTR, Frodo is, and again, he gets pwned.  8-)

Rey is a Sue in 7 but they introduce a little conflict for her in 8. It's fine.

[HannibalBarca]

Rey is a Mary Sue in 7, except when Kylo blocks her blaster fire.  And paralyzes her.  And stuns her into unconsciousness.  She gets some back when she reads his mind a la Harry doing the same to Snape in Half-Blood Prince, then owns him once she lets the Force in at the end.

Anakin and Luke, yeah, super-whiny.  Must be a Skywalker thing.  Harry...I hear him complain in parts, but being raised by abusive relatives and thrust into deadly events as a pre-teen and teen--I think he kinda deserved his complaining.  Indy, Kirk, and MacLaine I don't remember whining at all.  Maybe it had more to do with them being mature adults rather than teens or young adults.  Book Aragorn is kind of an anti-whiner.  Movie Aragorn...meh...I didn't like him refusing his destiny to be king, but I understand the reason behind the change to his personality for the big screen.

I still think Rey is at the least a borderline Mary Sue, but it doesn't mess up the films for me.  Space Opera is space opera.  Barbarella was a Mary Sue, too.  Sometimes Mary Sues can be pretty entertaining.

[wander]

Barbarella was pulled out of the japes she got into by other characters 100% of the time. She effectively did nothing on her own in her own movie.

[Nostalgia]

Rey is a Mary Sue in 7, except when Kylo blocks her blaster fire.  And paralyzes her.  And stuns her into unconsciousness.  She gets some back when she reads his mind a la Harry doing the same to Snape in Half-Blood Prince, then owns him once she lets the Force in at the end.

Anakin and Luke, yeah, super-whiny.  Must be a Skywalker thing.  Harry...I hear him complain in parts, but being raised by abusive relatives and thrust into deadly events as a pre-teen and teen--I think he kinda deserved his complaining.  Indy, Kirk, and MacLaine I don't remember whining at all.  Maybe it had more to do with them being mature adults rather than teens or young adults.  Book Aragorn is kind of an anti-whiner.  Movie Aragorn...meh...I didn't like him refusing his destiny to be king, but I understand the reason behind the change to his personality for the big screen.

I still think Rey is at the least a borderline Mary Sue, but it doesn't mess up the films for me.  Space Opera is space opera.  Barbarella was a Mary Sue, too.  Sometimes Mary Sues can be pretty entertaining.

No no no. Kylo and Rey aren't presented to be on the same level of training and experience, and Kylo is the villain. He's supposed to have the upper hand. Like, Luke is not supposed to go blow for blow with Darth Vader right off the top. That's BAD STORYTELLING y'all. Harry Potter makes dumb choices. Luke and Anakin and Aragorn are emotionally immature. John McClaine is mentally tough but facing incredible odds. There are B-movies with badass guys that kill 100 people and get the girl but those are BEE MOVIES. This is STAR WARS, the expectations for a main character are HIGHER.

Rey (in episode 7) does not have ANY real character flaws we can grab onto, and she's not a foil for someone else, and outside of being poor and being a girl there's not a lot to sympathize with. It's bad writing, but we agree writing doesn't have to be a binary GOOD or BAD thing.

[HannibalBarca]

Well, I know I would have taken a different tack than the writers for 7 and 8, but no one's beating down my door to write a Star Wars script :P  I guess I'll have to wait for someone to take me up on my Old Republic plot idea here on Elliquiy...

[CaptainNexus616]

My biggest issue hasn't been with Rey.

Its Amilyn Holdo, the Vice Admiral who took over after Leia was injured. She just opted to remain silent about their plan until they actually reached the planet.

A large majority of the movie would not have happened if she just said what the hell they were doing. Saving Finn, Rose, and Poe a lot of time and frustrations.

The only reason why I can think she didn't share this plan was because they suspected a spy was on board.

Regardless its a big plot hole that bugs me.

[Nostalgia]

it's not a plot hole. she outranks him and it's not her job to give him need to know intel, it's his job to do what he's told.

now, was it smart to play bustnuts with your best pilot in that kind of situation? maybe not, but it's not a plot hole since she has a reason for behaving that way.

[CaptainNexus616]

Apologies, what I meant was. Why not inform the entire Resistance of their evacuation plan once she was appointed as temporary leader. If it was need to know Intel by only a small handful then I'm willing to accept that and leave it at that.

[RubySlippers]

My biggest issue hasn't been with Rey.

Its Amilyn Holdo, the Vice Admiral who took over after Leia was injured. She just opted to remain silent about their plan until they actually reached the planet.

A large majority of the movie would not have happened if she just said what the hell they were doing. Saving Finn, Rose, and Poe a lot of time and frustrations.

The only reason why I can think she didn't share this plan was because they suspected a spy was on board.

Regardless its a big plot hole that bugs me.

How so? They had a stupid long shot plan, that commanding officer would not likely have approved it over say Admiral Ackbar who would have in a second with more support so they would still had run off and the only good thing the CO did was ram the last ship into the enemy command ship.

[Arkaniel]

Apologies, what I meant was. Why not inform the entire Resistance of their evacuation plan once she was appointed as temporary leader. If it was need to know Intel by only a small handful then I'm willing to accept that and leave it at that.

Considering hyperspace tracking was supposedly impossible, they likely thought there was a spy indeed. Besides which, why would a CO possibly explain her actions in detail to a demoted officer with slight insubordination issues, a low level technician and someone who isn't even part of the resistance officially? No general/admiral explains the details of a plan to their privates and such. They don't need to. Don't forget the resistance is still a military. Lower ranked people almost always only hear their part of any plan. In other words, do as you are ordered.

So to me that was not such a big plot hole at all. I actually thought it pretty realistic

[Cold Heritage]

Maybe they could've done more to show that the Resistance was a full-on military organization like the First Order and establish that members of the Resistance were expected to adhere to full military discipline.

[Ariel]

Ugh it wa so good. So so damn good. I can’t wait to go see it again. I loved it. I’m sad Luke died but I’m glad it was the way it was. He went peacefully. I was also living for the parallels between him and Obi Wan.

Such a good movie. <3

[Arkaniel]

Maybe they could've done more to show that the Resistance was a full-on military organization like the First Order and establish that members of the Resistance were expected to adhere to full military discipline.

I’m not sure how much more they could have done so other than calling their leaders generals, admirals and the like, have warships and squadrons of fighters, use demotions in military rank to punish insubordination,...? The might be more paramilitary than full on military, but those ranks and such were not for show.

[TheGlyphstone]

My problem with Holdo was that she just kicks back and watches the transports get popped like soap bubbles, then finally turns around and does the lightspeed ram everyone knew was coming. There was no reason for her to delay that once they realized the cloaking had failed.

[HannibalBarca]

That was a plot device to bring tension that I didn't particularly like, either.  But then again, they were supposed to be cloaked, or at least unnoticed, in the original plan.  As soon as she saw the cargo ships getting smoked, she should have done her duty and rammed immediately...but then maybe there was more stuff to do to get the ship ready.

[TheGlyphstone]

That was a plot device to bring tension that I didn't particularly like, either.  But then again, they were supposed to be cloaked, or at least unnoticed, in the original plan.  As soon as she saw the cargo ships getting smoked, she should have done her duty and rammed immediately...but then maybe there was more stuff to do to get the ship ready.

Maybe, but it didn't seem like it. She just stared out the window watching them die, then finally sat down at the pilot's chair and started turning. So it was very poorly done either way.

[Regina Minx]

The biggest problem I had with the resolution of the fleet chase is the fact that Admiral Hunger Games pretty much invalidated the conflict of Star Wars prior to The Last Jedi.

Star Wars has always operated on the logic of World War 2 Naval and Aerial Warfare. The big ships hang back and shoot big guns while exciting dog chase and fighter jockeying stuff happens. As long as it consistently played by these rules, it was a fine conceit of the setting and style, even if it's not particularly 'realistic' in terms of the way space war would logically unfold given the physical laws of the universe.

But Admiral Hunger Games broke the rules. She used her flagship like a lightspeed bullet, and pretty much wrecked the First Order's shit. She took out Snoke's command ship and like half the enemy fleet, with one lightspeed jump directly through their battle formation.

So why do we have to have chosen saviors bullseye small thermal exhaust port openings to destroy floating superweapons? A handful of asteroids with lightspeed engines attached to them will do. Why do we even need a Death Star in the first place, when planetary destruction can be yours for the cost of a few kilotons of iron?

And if a hyperspace ship bullet was always a threat in space warfare, there is no reason that ships should be flying in such tight formation. Enemies that will launch hyperspace projectiles at you should be a concern in every engagement, and ships should not be approaching each other except at relativistic distances. Planets should be constantly paranoid that space terrorists and criminals will fling ships at light speed into their surface, and interdiction fields should be a standard part of both ship and planetary defense.

In short, I think that Admiral Hunger Games pretty much broke the suspension of disbelief surrounding the space opera fighting in Star Wars. It's the biggest flaw of The Last Jedi, in my estimation.

[TheGlyphstone]

Through from a strict physics perspective, a ship that size going superluminal shouldn't have just smashed a big hole through the Supremacy, it should have atomized the entire hull. So we can reasonably extrapolate that something is messing with the logical outcome of the attack, and if we're feeling charitable, we can have that explanation (whatever technobabble we desire) is why lightspeed attacks of that sort are a last-ditch desperation maneuver instead of the default.

[Regina Minx]

Through from a strict physics perspective, a ship that size going superluminal shouldn't have just smashed a big hole through the Supremacy, it should have atomized the entire hull. So we can reasonably extrapolate that something is messing with the logical outcome of the attack, and if we're feeling charitable, we can have that explanation (whatever technobabble we desire) is why lightspeed attacks of that sort are a last-ditch desperation maneuver instead of the default.

That or the screenwriters aren't physicists.

[TheGlyphstone]

That or the screenwriters aren't physicists.

I can't imagine they are. Still, if we are looking at the question of 'why dont they launch hyperspace asteroids at the Death Star', it shows there is/could be a complicating technobabble factor we don't know about. The movies are never going to explain it.

[Arkaniel]

I can't imagine they are. Still, if we are looking at the question of 'why dont they launch hyperspace asteroids at the Death Star', it shows there is/could be a complicating technobabble factor we don't know about. The movies are never going to explain it.

As far as I am aware, because it is near impossible to circumvent the safeties on a hyperdrive calculation in order to jump into a gravity well, while every piece of hyperdrive technology and software of the past twenty five thousand years has been designed to avoid hitting things while going into hyperdrive. Besides which, I don’t remember if it was stated in the movies or if it was stated in one of the Lucas approved books or fact files, but generally, something in hyperspeed hitting a planet is only detrimental to the thing doing the hitting, because it smashes into the gravity well, which begins quite a distance from the planet, while the gravity well of a ship would be pretty much only the ship itself.

Just my attempt at badly explaining some facts pulled together from EU canon that could make some sense of what Holdo did.

And short distance hyperspace jumping is nigh impossible, so the fact holdo hit the fleet at all was a minor miracle. Especially since she likely had to aim manually instead of hacking/slicing programs that were designed to not do what she did.

[Regina Minx]

Especially since she likely had to aim manually instead of hacking/slicing programs that were designed to not do what she did.

C'mon. She pressed like three buttons.

[TheGlyphstone]

Two of those were for show, the third one was labeled "Deus Ex Machina".

[HannibalBarca]

One of the group instances in the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO I used to play was about shutting down a battlestation that could launch small asteroids at planets in a very similar fashion...at least I think it was based on a similar premise.

No one is going to claim physics isn't being followed in a science fantasy like Star Wars...but I think the hyperspace suicide was a two-edged sword in the film.  It was very anime-esque, especially in the silent view of the impact--I think it was in many ways an homage to such actions in anime, possibly there to appeal to fans of anime outside the U.S.  Of course, letting the genie out of the bottle, the move is going to have to be explained away somehow in books or other materials outside of the films, so as to not lead to the 'why doesn't everyone do that' complaint.  Or Disney just doesn't care.

Regardless of the logic or plot-worthiness of it, I think it was presented very well, and was emotionally impactful to the story.

[Yvellakitsune]

I know this thread has been quiet for a while, but I had some thoughts on Poe.

He should be executed.  First he disobeyed orders with the bombers resulting in most of them being destroyed.  Then he launched an unsanctioned mission that revealed a military deception that cost the Rebellion probably 7/8ths its numbers since they went from several starships to being able to all fit in the Millenium Falcon.  Not to mention the outright mutiny. He is actually the greatest enemy of the Rebellion.  He has shown to be more dangerous to the Rebellion than the First Order was.

What he did was not a simple mistakes or something, it was outright unwarranted challenges to the chain of command, dereliction of duty, and disobeying orders.  I can see why the Admiral didn't share the plan with him, he was unreliable and he had no 'need to know' which is a big aspect of military deceptions.  He proved he was unreliable, doubled down on it, and then went all in on it.  He was the ultimate insider threat, the one that doesn't even realize he is a threat.  Leia was wrong to just demote him in the first place.  He should have been cut off after the bomber incident. 

Having served in the military to include military deception experience myself, he was the most despicable character of the movie.     

[greenknight]

I know this thread has been quiet for a while, but I had some thoughts on Poe.

He should be executed.  First he disobeyed orders with the bombers resulting in most of them being destroyed.  Then he launched an unsanctioned mission that revealed a military deception that cost the Rebellion probably 7/8ths its numbers since they went from several starships to being able to all fit in the Millenium Falcon.  Not to mention the outright mutiny. He is actually the greatest enemy of the Rebellion.  He has shown to be more dangerous to the Rebellion than the First Order was.

What he did was not a simple mistakes or something, it was outright unwarranted challenges to the chain of command, dereliction of duty, and disobeying orders.  I can see why the Admiral didn't share the plan with him, he was unreliable and he had no 'need to know' which is a big aspect of military deceptions.  He proved he was unreliable, doubled down on it, and then went all in on it.  He was the ultimate insider threat, the one that doesn't even realize he is a threat.  Leia was wrong to just demote him in the first place.  He should have been cut off after the bomber incident. 

Having served in the military to include military deception experience myself, he was the most despicable character of the movie.     

Then you seem to forget what is expected of officers (American, at least). The Resistance either ran the op brilliantly (affirming Poe's actions) or stupidly. PM if you want to discuss further.

[Regina Minx]

Then you seem to forget what is expected of officers (American, at least). The Resistance either ran the op brilliantly (affirming Poe's actions) or stupidly. PM if you want to discuss further.

If you have something to say I think it can be shared with the class...

[greenknight]

If you have something to say I think it can be shared with the class...

Failing to account for a known quantity like Poe Dameron is piss poor planning and horrible fieldcraft. Poe's gonna Poe. That's about all I can say publicly.

[Regina Minx]

That's about all I can say publicly.

I don't think that's literally true. I think you're perfectly capable of saying more, but you're choosing not to for reasons that aren't entirely clear. Regardless, you don't want to elaborate, so I'm just going to let it go. Like Hitch said: That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[Yvellakitsune]

Failing to account for a known quantity like Poe Dameron is piss poor planning and horrible fieldcraft. Poe's gonna Poe. That's about all I can say publicly.

If you are having to build allowances for a single specific person in your plan, maybe that person is not somebody you want in your unit in the first place.  Either that or the US Military dropped the dropped 80% figure and went complete head down every rabbit hole planning. 

And was I have never seen a regulation that said need to know should be granted to hot heads that don’t obey orders. 

As for the known factor, I blame Leila for that.  Disobeying orders and losing an entire asset warrants more than a demotion. 

[greenknight]

If you are having to build allowances for a single specific person in your plan, maybe that person is not somebody you want in your unit in the first place. 

It's not an allowance for one individual, it's an allowance for a senior officer. It's like not making an allowance for Patton being Patton.

And was I have never seen a regulation that said need to know should be granted to hot heads that don’t obey orders. 

Need to know has degrees. "Bob, you're going to screw up an ongoing op. Settle down." And if he doesn't, you put him on ice for awhile. It's not like that would be beyond the capabilities of an admiral on a resistance ship....

As for the known factor, I blame Leila for that.  Disobeying orders and losing an entire asset warrants more than a demotion.

Maybe the general figured that succeeding in the mission and destroying a dreadnought was worth the losses. The 8th AF certainly did in WWII. And you've just proved the point. Conduct of the operation is a commander's call. Leia kept Poe in the game knowing what how he operates. It's not an insider threat when the commander makes an affirmative decision, it's a component of the plan.

[Yvellakitsune]

It's not an allowance for one individual, it's an allowance for a senior officer. It's like not making an allowance for Patton being Patton.

He was not a senior commander anymore.  Second, there was a change of command after Leia was injured.

Need to know has degrees. "Bob, you're going to screw up an ongoing op. Settle down." And if he doesn't, you put him on ice for awhile. It's not like that would be beyond the capabilities of an admiral on a resistance ship....

Second, Holdo had almost that exact conversation with Poe, to include reminding him of his demotion.

Maybe the general figured that succeeding in the mission and destroying a dreadnought was worth the losses. The 8th AF certainly did in WWII. And you've just proved the point. Conduct of the operation is a commander's call. Leia kept Poe in the game knowing what how he operates. It's not an insider threat when the commander makes an affirmative decision, it's a component of the plan.

Even Leia demoted him, the screen showing the lost squadron didn't demonstrate that either.  But it was not Leia's call for him to launch an unauthorized mission after that.  It was not Holdo's call to launch Rose and Finn out that ultimately revealed the deception. 

So far, your arguments have not shown that Poe should be resolved of this.  It was solely Poe's call to launch that mission that was not part of the plan. Poe didn't do his part of the plan, despite being given orders to stay in his lane by Holdo.  He exceeded his authority to the point of mutiny even.  Nothing you have said justifies mutiny.  The deaths of the Rebels are on Poe's hands.  It was his call, and only his call.  A call exceeding his authority, and against the orders given to him.  Both in the case of the loss of the squadron, and the loss of the deception and its consequences.

Conduct of the mission is the commander's call.  Poe was not the commander. Leia was, then Holdo was.  Both gave him orders to the contrary of what he did.  At Poe's level, his calls were not only wrong, but in the face of receiving orders not do it. 

[greenknight]

Poe Dameron acts. He saw what he assessed as a betrayal of the Resistance and initiated an operation against it. Anyone should be commended for that, if they're right. He was a known variable that either the Resistance accounted for, which means the command endorsed everything he did, or they didn't, which means the command was responsible for everything they failed to prevent him from doing. Holdo didn't remove him (or bring him all in) or control a narrative to focus him where his blind actions would best serve, and so her operation suffered for it.

Feel free to prefer charges against Commander Dameron, I'm curious how that would go.

[Yvellakitsune]

Key words:

... if they're right.

Poe was wrong on every count in the movie. 

Poe is not a role model in this movie.  He unwittingly killed the combat power of the Rebellion.  He exceeded his authority, especially as only "Captain Dameron."  Two ranks below his previous rank of Commander, he was removed.  He disobeyed orders.  He lost an asset. He was demoted. His unauthorized mission revealed a deception to the enemy that resulted in the Rebellion becoming combat ineffective.  There is nothing commendable about his actions in that movie. 

Looks like I'm not the only one who feels that way: https://nerdist.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-failed-poe-dameron-holdo/

Let’s be honest: Poe Dameron should be in the brig or shot out the nearest airlock. The Resistance isn’t a feel-good clubhouse; it is a military, and Poe went AWOL. He got people killed. He started a mutiny and held his commanding officers at gunpoint. No matter how hard-pressed the Resistance is for pilots, Poe is now a risk that can’t be allowed to stand. Letting him roam free on the Millennium Falcon sends a message that subordination will be met with not even a slap on the wrist.

The author also seems to feel Poe is a sexist,

Within his story, over and over again Poe ignores the orders of his female commanders. He uses his personal relationship with Leia to undermine her authority, getting an entire bombing squad killed. He bristles under the command of Holdo, clearly put out that she won’t share her plan with him. Poe thinks he knows better. But, by taking matters into his own hands, Poe merely gets more people killed. If not for him, Finn and Rose never would’ve gone to Canto Bight and met Benicio del Toro’s DJ, who then would never have tipped off the First Order about the transports.

The author doesn't seem to know what AWOL means.  Finn and Rose actually went "AWOL," but Poe sent them.

But Greenknight, obviously we are going to have to agree to disagree.  In my opinion, Poe is down there with Hux.  One is a spineless, suck up sob, the other a brash, unhinged loose cannon.  Opposite sides of a metal slug, but both worthless and neither worth looking up too. 

I think the writers wanted to expand on the "failure is the best teacher" aspect of the story, but they went too far with it for Poe.  Poe destroyed the Rebellion in its current form. 

[Cold Heritage]

Do you also have issue with Luke turning off his targeting computer and using the Force? I'm just curious.

[Yvellakitsune]

Do you also have issue with Luke turning off his targeting computer and using the Force? I'm just curious.

When was he actually ordered to use it?  Someone just commented to him that he turned it off.  Another comment was made using an “if” statement, “if you can’t see it, the computer can hit it.” 

Also, he accomplished his mission, and he didn’t upend a larger effort in doing so. 

With Poe, he was directly ordered not to do something that he did anyway and attempted mutiny.  In both cases his action cost lives and undermined operations.  Greenknigt’s comment, “if they were right,” is a huge factor.  Luke was right and it supported the mission, and he was not ordered to do/not do something.  Poe was wrong, went against the command and orders, and cost the Rebellion hundreds of people.  Yes, it is subjective, but results matter.  Luke saved lives, Poe cost lives and defied orders when he did so.

[Cold Heritage]

And how do you feel about Finn?

[Yvellakitsune]

I looked up the script for Episode IV and Luke was not ordered to use the targeting computer.  I was wrong about the “if” part, the conversation was actually doubt about the computer being able to hit it. 

My scope shows the tower, but I can't
                         see the exhaust port! Are you sure
                         the computer can hit it?   

And when Luke turns off the computer:

BASE VOICE
                              (over speaker)
                         His computer's off. Luke, you switched
                         off your targeting computer. What's
                         wrong?

                                     LUKE
                              (over speaker)
                         Nothing. I'm all right.

[Yvellakitsune]

And how do you feel about Finn?

Finn did try to desert.... again.  The first time was more of a defection of course.  The second time was desertion when Rose caught him.  Poe influenced them.  They were even more unwitted than Poe.  They both knew they were unauthorized to leave the ship, heck Rose was even on guard to stop attempts to leave the ship.  They are culpable to Poe’s crimes, but Poe gave the orders and Poe did the actual mutiny.  Rose specifically knew they were not allowed to leave the ship.  She willingly abandoned her post as well.  Again, nothing commendable about them in my opinion. 

Hollywood writers seem to have this trend going that standing up to any authority is noble and they play on emotion, not logic.  In doing so, to me they ruined not only the original characters, but the new ones as well. 

Yes, you question or report illegal orders, but nothing Holdo did was illegal or immoral.  When Finn and Rose figured out the tracking, that information should have gotten to the Chain of Command, but Poe stopped that too. 

[Cold Heritage]

Hollywood writers seem to have this trend going that standing up to any authority is noble and they play on emotion, not logic. 

There is also a rich history of military characters and organization acting like "feel good clubhouses" - The Dirty Dozen and Top Gun immediately spring to mind.

[Yvellakitsune]

There is also a rich history of military characters and organization acting like "feel good clubhouses" - The Dirty Dozen and Top Gun immediately spring to mind.

There is.  And that still doesn’t make a character commendable referring back to my original stance.

  On the current subject of plot devices...  It’s a place to potentially build the redemption of a character.  Top Gun did that and Maverick became a pilot the Navy needed.   I think The Last Jedi attempted to do that, but failed at it by taking it too far.  Top Gun balanced it more.  Maverick broke rules, but he didn’t cause the carrier to get sunk and only get a slap on the wrist. 

A lot of that comes from writers who just don’t Know and are too lazy to bother to research the subject, or simply don’t care because it fits a formula.

[Deamonbane]

At the time, I'd say they probably didn't want to hold an immediate court martial based on the fact that they were on the run from the First Order. So when he openly disobeyed orders and endangered their plan, he was disabled, and his punishment put off until they were all safe. Aside from that, considering the kind of casualties that the Rebels had taken, they likely didn't want to put a further blow to morale trying and possibly executing someone that was up until that moment seen as something of a hero to the rebels. His personal relationship with Leia aside, the decision was likely necessary (for morale), political and spur of the moment.

And once the dust cleared, there wouldn't be much of a military infrastructure left to try and court martial him, and if there were, he'd be right at the top of that infrastructure, because despite his demotion, he is still considered a leader by many of the surviving rebels, and as such, some sort of leadership would be necessary.

I'm not saying that he was in the right, as I found his actions a bit abrasive and definitely unnecessarily destructive. I can just see the reasoning as to why they would either put off punishing him properly or dispense with it altogether under those particular circumstances.

[Cold Heritage]

Does all of this bad stuff really hinge on Poe being kept out of the loop?

Hypothetically, if Holdo had decided to tell Poe about the plan, is there a sense that he would have behaved differently, or is the character portrayed such that he would have taken the same course of action but with the additional justification that he thought the plan would be ineffective and he could formulate a better response to the First Order?

[TheGlyphstone]

Does all of this bad stuff really hinge on Poe being kept out of the loop?

Hypothetically, if Holdo had decided to tell Poe about the plan, is there a sense that he would have behaved differently, or is the character portrayed such that he would have taken the same course of action but with the additional justification that he thought the plan would be ineffective and he could formulate a better response to the First Order?

Personally, I think he would have. The fact that he was entrusted with finding R2 in TFA shows he is actually capable of extended work without supervision - and more to the point, the Resistance had trusted him with solo operation of that sort. So he can't be a completely incompetent renegade.

[Regina Minx]

There's a buffet of bad decisions. I'll start with Admiral Hunger Games and Breathes-in-Space, just to show I'm being as objective as possible here.

AHG and BiS:

• Fail to hold and debrief an intelligence asset.

Poe:

• Withheld vital intelligence from his commanding officers.
• Violated the chain of command
• Led a mutiny and encouraged others to do the same.

Rose:

• Went AWOL
• Stole and allowed to be destroyed Resistance matériel.
• Withheld vital intelligence from her commanding officers.
• Violated the laws of Planet Casino
• Escaped from lawful imprisonment (risking countless lives and doing property damage in the process).
• Participated in grand theft spaceship.

Finn:

• Violated the laws of Planet Casino
• Escaped from lawful imprisonment  (risking countless lives and doing property damage in the process).
• Participated in grand theft spaceship.

[TheGlyphstone]

Don't forget "Attempted to desert his post in the middle of a battle" to Finn's list of crimes. That's as bad as mutiny in most military law codes.

[Regina Minx]

Don't forget "Attempted to desert his post in the middle of a battle" to Finn's list of crimes. That's as bad as mutiny in most military law codes.

In the interest of "benefit of the doubt extending", I'm not assuming that Finn is a member of the Resistance in a formal way.

[Deamonbane]

Does all of this bad stuff really hinge on Poe being kept out of the loop?

Hypothetically, if Holdo had decided to tell Poe about the plan, is there a sense that he would have behaved differently, or is the character portrayed such that he would have taken the same course of action but with the additional justification that he thought the plan would be ineffective and he could formulate a better response to the First Order?

I'm still going with no. Poe disobeyed a direct order and cost the lives of those under his command, and just as important, he cost the Rebellion their only shot at being able to fight back against the kind of firepower that they knew they would be up against later. While his being a lovable rogue and being quite competent on his own allows him to get away with a lot, he was participating in a coordinated assault plan, and he should have stuck to it. Leia and Holdo were both in the right in putting him in the dog house and demanding that he do what they demand of any other participant in the rebellion, and follow orders without having to know the entirety of the plan. It was need to know, and he didn't.

[Cold Heritage]

I'm still going with no. Poe disobeyed a direct order and cost the lives of those under his command, and just as important, he cost the Rebellion their only shot at being able to fight back against the kind of firepower that they knew they would be up against later. While his being a lovable rogue and being quite competent on his own allows him to get away with a lot, he was participating in a coordinated assault plan, and he should have stuck to it. Leia and Holdo were both in the right in putting him in the dog house and demanding that he do what they demand of any other participant in the rebellion, and follow orders without having to know the entirety of the plan. It was need to know, and he didn't.

Well, that really makes him an unlikeable character if he'd do the same thing, knowing the plan or not knowing the plan.

[greenknight]

It was need to know, and he didn't.

This is a symptom of the whole problem with Resistance command. Poe does have a need to know, at least some portions. He understands intelligence operations. He knows the fleet is being tracked, he knows that Holdo knows, and he knows Holdo isn't doing anything about it besides running until fuel runs out (the last part being the deception plan). As far as Poe is concerned, something's rotten in Denmark (I suspected Holdo might be a double agent given the way Rian Johnson framed the story) and he has a responsibility to save the fleet. Everything he does that bollocks up the deception plan derives from this.

Holdo didn't do herself any favors by popping a fanboy's bubble when they first met (notwithstanding, of course, his strategic blunder to achieve a tactical objective, a common Rebellion/Resistance trait). I took away that Holdo made her bones by being a brawler like Poe and that she had since learned the control and finesse Leia was trying to cultivate in Poe. (You can't just jump in a starfighter and blow something up.) He was her past she was embarrassed by.* I read her as seeing him in the pejorative definition of a tool and his opinion (based mostly on hurt feelings when an idol wasn't exactly as he wanted) quickly matched suit.

No one comes off well in this exchange. The Resistance, especially Holdo after Leia's incapacitation, is not able to effect unity of effort. To their detriment, this confounds Leia's plans to husband Resistance resources (she, at least, finally seems to be dabbling in the Washington/Ho school rather than Lee). Holdo's on board with this but can't effectively communicate the plan to key actors. And that drives perceptions that support Poe's narrative and and allow him to use his personal relationships to mutiny. If the plan was more complete and better communicated, you can mitigate the Poe effect, both personally and with the troops who would otherwise accept his narrative.

And in the end, what does Holdo finally do? She jumps in a starfightercruiser and blows something up.



*Not that I've ever seen that among people I know, nope, never, nuh-uh.

[Cold Heritage]

That's some insightful stuff, greenknight.

[Regina Minx]

This is a symptom of the whole problem with Resistance command. Poe does have a need to know, at least some portions.

I don't agree with this. But let's say we grant it for the sake of argument. Hunger Games and Breathes-in-Space should have told Poe some portions of their plan.

Poe still withholds vital information from his commanding officers and mutinies. This is a little bit more severe than taking operational security a little too far.

[Yvellakitsune]

Greenknight,
   I know you are trying to justify Poe's narrative.  Look at Holdo's.  Holdo didn't know him from a hole in the wall before he confronted her.  All Holdo knew of him was that he was demoted from Commander (O4ish in US Military ranks) to Captain (to O2ish) for disobeying orders.  He was now just a fighter jockey without a fighter because the hangar was destroyed.  His job, as he was told, was to sit down and enjoy the ride.  He didn't have a specific role in the current plan.  So he had no need to know, since he likely wasn't even a squadron commander anymore.  Add in the fact that Holdo didn't know how they were being tracked (Poe could have told her and choose not to), there very well could be an insider threat, so she likely only witted people who had supervision in the plan.  Others were only told their specific task. 

   Poe's reaction when his bubble got popped probably just reinforced her suspicions of him. 

   The people fueling the cloaked shuttles probably didn't know, all they knew were to refuel the shuttles and board them (ie: their role in the plan).  Passengers (like Poe at this point) were likely only told to board the shuttles and only when it was time to minimize leakage.  The bridge crew was likely the only ones who knew the whole plan because she had a direct supervision of them. 

    To Holdo, Poe had no real relevance to the mission without a fighter to jockey and she had never worked with him before.  And even then, after the demotion it probably would have been the new commander that was witted, not him, if there were fighters left.   

    I still say Poe was wrong and at fault.  Even if he didn't agree with what he deluded himself to believe the plan to be, he choose not to share information that was vital to intelligence (which doesn't support the idea that he understands intelligence operations).  That was his opportunity to try and rebuild any trust, and he choose not to.   

[greenknight]

I don't agree with this. But let's say we grant it for the sake of argument. Hunger Games and Breathes-in-Space should have told Poe some portions of their plan.

Poe still withholds vital information from his commanding officers and mutinies. This is a little bit more severe than taking operational security a little too far.

Without access to the plan, Poe (and I based on Johnson's framing) suspected  that Holdo was a First Order agent trying to wipe out the fleet. Leia being incapacitated by this point, why would he report what he knew to her? As far as he could tell, he was the senior, capable officer still loyal to the Resistance.

YK:

Commander in SW has never been a defined grade. Everyone in command is referred to as commander, much like captain and Commodore in the Navy or commander in the other three services. Luke was a commander in the Rebellion era, I've been a commander at multiple grades.. Poe commanded a multi-platform air raid, and because he wasn't a General and Colonel's are named and under Commander's control in the Rebellion era, this implies Commander is a positional title, like a carrier's CAG. This would imply his demotion from Commander to Captain may not even be a loss of grade but just being fired from position. In the US Navy, a fired CAG is still a Captain. And we see no indication of separate definitions of a ground and naval Captain as all Captains we encounter in on screen are either ship commanders or the senior officer of a royal bodyguard.

Holdo's bridge crew didn't even know the plan, not that they needed to. If they did, they wouldn't have joined Poe's mutiny.

I'm not trying to absolve Poe of fault. Poe operated within the norms of the Rebellion/Resistance. Holdo was a terrible commander; she could not articulate her plans, could not generate buy-in for them, and could not effect unified action. If she could, Poe's mutiny would have gone nowhere. He would either be outright denied by his recruit prospects or reported and arrested. Poe is symptom of the Resistance's dysfunction and dropping all fault on him does both him and them a disservice. Everything becomes about one bad actor and the organization never learns and repeats the same scenario over and over again.

[Regina Minx]

Without access to the plan, Poe (and I based on Johnson's framing) suspected  that Holdo was a First Order agent trying to wipe out the fleet. Leia being incapacitated by this point, why would he report what he knew to her? As far as he could tell, he was the senior, capable officer still loyal to the Resistance.

When Finn and Rose came to him with the revelation about the FO's tracking capabilities, his stated rationale for not telling Hunger Games was that she wouldn't approve of a mission to recruit a hacker to disable it. Not that she was an FO agent. The prospect of Hunger Games being a turncoat was never stated or implied.

[Yvellakitsune]

When Finn and Rose came to him with the revelation about the FO's tracking capabilities, his stated rationale for not telling Hunger Games was that she wouldn't approve of a mission to recruit a hacker to disable it. Not that she was an FO agent. The prospect of Hunger Games being a turncoat was never stated or implied.

I thought the same thing and was trying to look up if there was a fan theory about it or something.  From the movie, it just appeared he didn’t like Holdo or her plan.

@Greenknight, I too have had the title of “commander” in my career, but if we look at the cannon lore, commander is a rank.  It goes: lieutenant, captain, major, commander, colonel, and general.  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rebel_command_insignia

I know we disagree on it.  Having worked specifically in military deception and levels of access to them, I can completely see why he was not witted.  Poe was simply a passenger at that point, a demoted pilot without a fighter.  He takes up a seat in the plan, and that’s it. Holdo has no reason whatsoever to read him in on it, and a big part of it was he demonstrated himself to be unreliable. 

I’ve already said in my opinion, he should have been entirely removed from any authority after the bomber incident alone and Leia has some fault there.

@Demonbane,
   You mentioned for morale purposes he should be kept on.  I’m not sure on that.  If it is known he is the reason 90% of them were killed, he would be a morale killer.  Just look at Rose.  Imagine how things might have gone when Finn introduced Rose to Poe if she knew Poe disobeyed orders that resulted in her sister’s death.  I could see the stun baton coming out again, and again, and again. 

[CaptainNexus616]

To change subjects,

I have been mulling over Snoke's death and I truly cannot help but realize how much it hurt his character. 

While yes it had some shock value to it, but what else can we say about Supreme Leader Snoke?

Ruler of a military empire. Disfigured. Turned a heir to the Skywalker lineage to the Dark Side. Then get taken out by said apprentice in true Sith fashion of striking the master down?

Does it sound like we already had this for a big bad in the Star Wars Franchise?

All the movies did was make Snoke, a less interesting Darth Sidious Mark II.  Granted I know Vader was always the more obvious villain whether you watch him in the original trilogy or was eager to watch his fall into the Sith Lord. However Palpatine's shadow was always cast over the galaxy, even when we didn't see him for most of the original trilogy. I'll never forget when I first saw him execute Order 66 and wipe out most of the Jedi Order in a single swoop to the point Yoda was in physical pain.

Palpatine was a bit hammy with his acting (UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!) but you can't help but think how cunning the man was to set a plan in motion that took decades to pull off. He was the entire reason why their was conflict in the first six movies.


I won't be surprised if we get some books, a movie, or tv show that further details Snoke, but he just feels too much like a rehash of Palpatine. Especially when there have been many many evils in the Star Wars universe that could have been substituted.

Like maybe Exar Kun for example? Those who heard about this guy will agree with me when I say he was something else. 

[Deamonbane]

This is a symptom of the whole problem with Resistance command. Poe does have a need to know, at least some portions. He understands intelligence operations. He knows the fleet is being tracked, he knows that Holdo knows, and he knows Holdo isn't doing anything about it besides running until fuel runs out (the last part being the deception plan). As far as Poe is concerned, something's rotten in Denmark (I suspected Holdo might be a double agent given the way Rian Johnson framed the story) and he has a responsibility to save the fleet. Everything he does that bollocks up the deception plan derives from this.

Holdo didn't do herself any favors by popping a fanboy's bubble when they first met (notwithstanding, of course, his strategic blunder to achieve a tactical objective, a common Rebellion/Resistance trait). I took away that Holdo made her bones by being a brawler like Poe and that she had since learned the control and finesse Leia was trying to cultivate in Poe. (You can't just jump in a starfighter and blow something up.) He was her past she was embarrassed by.* I read her as seeing him in the pejorative definition of a tool and his opinion (based mostly on hurt feelings when an idol wasn't exactly as he wanted) quickly matched suit.

No one comes off well in this exchange. The Resistance, especially Holdo after Leia's incapacitation, is not able to effect unity of effort. To their detriment, this confounds Leia's plans to husband Resistance resources (she, at least, finally seems to be dabbling in the Washington/Ho school rather than Lee). Holdo's on board with this but can't effectively communicate the plan to key actors. And that drives perceptions that support Poe's narrative and and allow him to use his personal relationships to mutiny. If the plan was more complete and better communicated, you can mitigate the Poe effect, both personally and with the troops who would otherwise accept his narrative.

And in the end, what does Holdo finally do? She jumps in a starfightercruiser and blows something up.



*Not that I've ever seen that among people I know, nope, never, nuh-uh.

I can actually agree with most of this, but it does exemplify the kind of stress that they are working under. Holdo (or Hunger Games, as Regina so enjoys using) had the command of the escape attempt thrust upon her. She wasn't prepared for that kind of command, so her first action (a bad decision) was to uphold Leia's (Breathes-in-space) last command, which is to keep Poe in the doghouse for a while, at least until they are all in a place where they can deal with Poe's actions with cool heads.

Her bad decision led Poe to making another bad decision, which all seems very likely under the circumstances. Both were decisions made under pressure and were just as likely to end badly as well, if not more so. While it doesn't follow a good narrative for a film, it does make for solid character building; Realistic choices with very real consequences.

As for CN616's point... I think I agree as well. They were building up a character that's more powerful than anything that we've seen in the franchise (a top dog to the Rey's Underdog), and while the bamboozled death wasn't entirely unrealistic (Palpatine's killing of Plageis in his sleep was hardly fair) it did undercut the narrative that was being built around him. I think/hope that this isn't the last word on Snoke, but if it is, I will be sorely disappointed as a fan.

[greenknight]

@Greenknight, I too have had the title of “commander” in my career, but if we look at the cannon lore, commander is a rank.  It goes: lieutenant, captain, major, commander, colonel, and general.  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rebel_command_insignia

If that site's to be taken as gospel, the Resistance assigned a mid-level officer as Air Mission Commander for both the Starkiller Base raid and the Dreadnought raid. It also says that naval Captains are equivalent in grade to Generals (CAPT Antilles of the Tantive IV wore five blue pips).

Poe Dameron operated within the norms of his organization. Who authorized Rogue One's mission? This is a military organization that would let an officer take off for who knows how long on a religious quest and authorize non-specialists to conduct PR missions. Fault does not rest solely with him.

[Yvellakitsune]

I think/hope that this isn't the last word on Snoke, but if it is, I will be sorely disappointed as a fan.

Snoke....  I agree there 100%.  Even if they did want to use him as a background piece, they could have used his death to go in a more radical direction.

A idea I had from the Snoke death, if Rey said ‘Yes’ to Kylo, and they try to unite the galaxy together in a more balanced manner than Sith/Jedi dichotomy (more along the lines of Bendu for those who follow it).  The First Order could split (Hux has a fit and leaves), and now three factions struggle for control.  Kylo and Rey try to walk a line, Hux’s faction and the Rebellion still battle.  Rey may not seem so Mary Sue facing galactic challenges and might show some faults.

  But that was just some of us talking after seeing the movie and being underwhelmed by the story taken. 

[CaptainNexus616]

Essentially Palpatine was a background piece, you don't hear much of him in a New Hope. Yet when you learn Darth Vader is his subordinate, that makes you think "OH SH*T, this guy must be one bad mother trucker to make Vader kneel to a hologram projection of himself." As a little kid who first watched Return of the Jedi, I thought he was creepy while he kept gloating Luke during the Battle of Endor. Then lets count in the fact he threw Sith Lightning (the first time we the fans are introduced to this) you think he has to be really strong.

Yes him being thrown down an elevator shaft was a bit cheap for someone so sinister as the emperor, but its overlooked because its also the first time we see a Sith turn good again. Watching as Vader saves his son and return to the light side.

Was Snoke even a Sith Lord? How did he corrupt Kylo Ren? Was the Knights of Ren his devoted servants? We get nothing on him from the moment he shows up to the moment he's gone. Just "He's in charge of the Empire MK II and a disfigured Force User like that other guy who screamed Unlimited Power!!!".

I give the Last Jedi props for showing Kylo Ren killed him to just be free of Snoke instead of turning good. I just wish they did something more different than that. They could have used so many other inspirations instead.

If anyone here played the old Xbox Knights of the Old Republic Games, you get a fun surprise with the big villain known as Darth Revan.

I feel like the Last Jedi suffers issues because of the Force Awakens. It tried to do things different but where the Force Awakens stuck with the familiar, it was heavily restricted in plot directions.

[HannibalBarca]

I won't be surprised if we get some books, a movie, or tv show that further details Snoke, but he just feels too much like a rehash of Palpatine. Especially when there have been many many evils in the Star Wars universe that could have been substituted.

Snoke is a rehash of Palpatine.  If anything, Star Wars itself (A New Hope, that is, as well as the entire franchise, really) is a rehash of old sci-fi and adventure tropes with a good dash of Akira Kurosawa and Westerns thrown in.  I think, once it went from a single movie to a franchise, especially the Expanded Universe...it has been trying to catch lightning in a bottle and get the feel of the first two films back.  It won't.  No franchise or series in fiction has ever done this.

Star Wars was, I think, for Lucas, a feel-good romp through his childhood loves, mixed with a clever understanding of the monomyth as presented to him by Joseph Campbell.  Lucas was able to present his own personal happy-makers within a medium that appealed to a massively broad range of people, and that is why it was so successful.  Once Star Wars was no longer a one-off, but world-built into its own broad setting, it stopped being just a fun stand-alone film.  Lucas did indeed catch lightning in a bottle with the success of Empire Strikes Back, but anyone who knows film history can see how rare it is for a mega-hit film to have an even bigger mega-hit sequel.

Star Wars, for me, is and always will be entertainment.  I can't delve deeply into its backstory--literally so, with the Expanded Universe being de-canonized.  I've never looked at it as the epitome of artistic or deep fiction, either, like I can with The Lord of the Rings, The Foundation Series, or The Earthsea Trilogy.  I've seen The Last Jedi more than once.  It's flawed.  It has glaring issues.  But it's fun, for fuck's sake.  Because I go into Star Wars films not expecting art films or deep messages, I don't have an excessive bar for it to meet.  I feel the same about other films that I loved, even though they are flawed.  Highlander, for example.  The dialogue was poor, the special effects sucked, the pacing was so-so...but I loved it.  Maybe it helped that Queen did the soundtrack, but the storyline itself was compelling.  I've always wished someone would remake it, with a reworked plot, better casting, and modern special effects...but the original made me happy.  I feel the same about every Star Wars movie, too.  I was disappointed with the pacing and dialogue in the Star Wars Prequels, but I still had fun watching them.  The big picture was more important to me than individual problems.  It's the same with episodes 7 and 8.

Honestly, there are scores of amazing science fiction novels out there that would make beautiful movies, in the right hands.  I think more about those being made, than a new Star Wars film coming out that is on par with A New Hope or Empire Strikes Back.  My happy memories of seeing the first Star Wars film in a drive-in theater as an 8 year old are just that--memories.  I don't expect it to be equalled or surpassed.  I'm not that kid anymore, and I'm too old and experienced for such an experience to happen to me again.  Well, that's not entirely true--when I watched it with my son for the first time when he was young, it was a very vicarious experience. I enjoyed it like a kid again with him there.  That's the closest I will get to that original feeling.  And that's perfectly fine with me.

[Quick Ben]

The more I think about this movie, the less I like it. Utterly disappointed by this one, but that's just one man's opinion.

Lots to agree with the post above mine!

[CaptainNexus616]

I am curious how these Star Wars movies with Game of Thrones people involved will work out.

[Quick Ben]

I'm worried about it just becoming a cash cow, which it already is. But with those two working on some films gives me some glimpse of hope!

[HannibalBarca]

Meh, Star Wars was a huge cash cow when Lucas owned it.  Disney milking it isn't anything new, really.

[Life in Color]

Porg liiiiiiiife.

<3!