Moving the Winter Olympics...

[Oniya]

I don't remember seeing any mention of it getting taken to court.  What year was that?  If I was still getting cable at the time, it would have hit my preferred stations.

[Ephiral]

That would happen in every country. Nothing to do with Putin being macho. If you draw a painting of Queen Elizabeth and Barack Obama in underpants and all, it'll probably get removed as well from galleries across the UK and the US.

I have a hard time believing that a painting would be seized for embarrassing the government in the US or Canada. Or even for going directly against government interests on government property. So... yeah, this argument doesn't hold at all. Noticing a theme here.

(Fun fact: A number of years ago, there was a huge local controversy over both the province and the federal government slashing the arts budget. A prominent local gallery did an entire exhibit around the theme "This is bullshit", complete with huge lumpy brown objects surrounding the doors. It was not only permitted, IIRC it helped get some of the budget cuts reversed.)

[gaggedLouise]

I don't remember seeing any mention of it getting taken to court.  What year was that?  If I was still getting cable at the time, it would have hit my preferred stations.

Back in the summer of 2008, during the lull before the conventions. Article and picture here.

That was quite heavy stuff, admittedly he wasn't the president at the time but still the hottest person in U.S. politics. The guy who did the cover said two years later that the idea had been to catch and ridicule the brazen fear-mongering around Obama, the idea that he was a muslimlover and so on.

[Imogen]

Well, rules for photo manipulations (that have some intention to look like it's "the real thing") are sharper in most places than rules on paintings, drawings and cartoons.

At the time when Michael Jackson sold Neverland Ranch and was fighting out those pesky charges in court with that kid, I saw some very funny - and sometimes quite offensive - cartoons from the U.S. press. One showed some cops standing outside the gates of Neverland, one of them saying "Well, I'm not frisking any chimps!", another had a grotesque-looking Jacko, a snake (Bubbles) and a child with eyes wide in fear in the same empire bed. If it had been staged photos, they would not have been printed, but as cartoons they were seen as okay.

Done a bit more research and found a case where a TV program faked former Queen Beatrix and then crown prince Willem-Alexander in a satire. It was mentioned that the RVD at that time was not certain if they could take the case to court as an infringement of rights or whether it would fall under 'satire'. As far as I know the case was not taken to court, but if there's doubt regarding whether or not this is allowed in a  country such as the Netherlands I won't be overly surprised if a milder satire turns out a no-no in Russia.

For those interested, here's the link: http://www.clint.be/actua/buitenland/nederland-steigert-na-naaktfotos-van-koningin-beatrix-video

[gaggedLouise]

Well, there was a radio show in Gothenburg sometime in the 80s - this is something I've only heard about much later - produced for a local channel by a theatre and cabaret troupe. It tended towards a tone both anarchist and raunchy and during one instalment, they sang a song where the chorus contained the line "Stuff some plastic explosive in the mouth of the king!" (there was little doubt which king...)

That one actually got filed to the board of ethical control of the national radio services - this was public radio, although local - and was fined, but not for threats against the majesty but for...not living up to the objective of "good entertainment" set out in the instructions to the public service...  :D

[Kythia]

So, whats the show of hands as to whether the Olympics should be moved then?  I've lost track of opinions a little.

[Florence]

Personally, I still feel they should, but I doubt it will happen. So for now I'm just hoping claims things will go peacefully and no one will wind up getting hurt by this law prove true.

EDIT: Added two words at the end which I totally forgot and rendered the post near gibberish.

[gaggedLouise]

If it turns out that the law will be enforced in some of the wide sense there's been talk of in this thread, and among LGBT associations in the west - crackdowns on LGBT websites, strict bans, threats or injunctions on any kind of informal discussions of gay/bi issues at universities, reading circles and in cultural life, and some sentences against PDAs (not necessarily harsh sentences, just to keep people in line) - then I think the IOC ought to take action, but I don't think they would at this late stage. We're sort of stuck with Sochi for now.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Agree with Finn and Louise.

[Dashenka]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-interview-putin-warns-west-syria-action

Mostly about Syria but near the end the article changes to Sochi.

Putin rejected the criticism of a Russian law banning gay propaganda that prompted some activists to call for the boycott of the 2014 Winter Games in Sochi, arguing that it wouldn't infringe on the rights of gays.

He also said that athletes and activists would not be punished if they raise rainbow flags or paint their fingernails in rainbow colors at the Feb. 7-23 Olympics.

But he clearly has no intention of allowing a gay pride parade or other such actions: Last month, Putin signed a decree banning all demonstrations and rallies in Sochi throughout the Winter Games.


So now there is no more reason to move the Olympics as the athletes are above the law in Russia.

[Rogue]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-interview-putin-warns-west-syria-action

Mostly about Syria but near the end the article changes to Sochi.

Putin rejected the criticism of a Russian law banning gay propaganda that prompted some activists to call for the boycott of the 2014 Winter Games in Sochi, arguing that it wouldn't infringe on the rights of gays.

He also said that athletes and activists would not be punished if they raise rainbow flags or paint their fingernails in rainbow colors at the Feb. 7-23 Olympics.

But he clearly has no intention of allowing a gay pride parade or other such actions: Last month, Putin signed a decree banning all demonstrations and rallies in Sochi throughout the Winter Games.


So now there is no more reason to move the Olympics as the athletes are above the law in Russia.

Okay. The only question I still have is a technical thing regarding the laws. Just because vagueness is the crux of the problem. I'm also not sure of the laws in Russia in general at the moment.

First: In general, what is the law on PDA in Russia? I mean in the US we can make out all we want and not get in trouble but nudity is where we draw the line whereas in some place like Saudi even a kiss could potentially cause issues. (Generalization since I'm also not sure of the laws there in the exactness.)

Second: If there are no real PDA laws with regards to the general populous, how does this law affect homosexual couples? And would a couple kissing in public, outside the stadium in Sochi but inside the Village, be considered a "Demonstration"?

The legal definitions as used by the laws in Russia should be given for Demonstration and Rally. Because let's say that Rally is defined as a gathering of 20 or more people wearing Pro LGBT propaganda. They might not be Rallying as we see it. Not even putting up a fuss. Just going to hang out or sit together at the game as a group. They may even have people going as subtle as rainbow nails or eyeshadow with mostly plain clothing to just pro LGBT shirts/clothing. Would this group of 20 or more people be starting a rally? And how would they be punished if they were?

[Dashenka]

Well my advice would be not to wear those rainbow colours OUTSIDE the Olympic village. You might not get arrested but you might as well stick a big bull's eye on your face.

I'm not sure about the law but I think we can't have sex or make out all we want. (Not sure why anybody would want that either) Just kissing wouldn't be a demonstration. With that I think Putin means going out on the street with a group of people protesting against anything.

I still remain at my point that if you go to Russia and you are not sure about the law, better stay on the safe side. If you know you could get arrested for kissing your boyfriend or girlfriend on the mouth, why not wait for the hotel room?

[Rogue]

Well my advice would be not to wear those rainbow colours OUTSIDE the Olympic village. You might not get arrested but you might as well stick a big bull's eye on your face.

That's why I said INSIDE the village but OUTSIDE the Stadium. Two separate things.

I'm not sure about the law but I think we can't have sex or make out all we want. (Not sure why anybody would want that either) Just kissing wouldn't be a demonstration. With that I think Putin means going out on the street with a group of people protesting against anything.

Booze makes you do a lot of stupid things sweetie, and I assure you spectators will likely be drinking.

This still doesn't answer my question though. A group of people wearing propaganda and just going out but not protesting could have the appearance of a rally. How does he plan on handling this is my question. And more importantly how do the police plan on handling this?

I still remain at my point that if you go to Russia and you are not sure about the law, better stay on the safe side. If you know you could get arrested for kissing your boyfriend or girlfriend on the mouth, why not wait for the hotel room?

The point is that it shouldn't have to be that way. Either EVERYONE should have to wait to go to their rooms for a celebratory kiss that YAY our country won this or this medal, or no one should. It's about equality and not feeling like a second class citizen/person for wanting to show your love for someone.

I'm okay with it being everyone having to wait. Whatever. It's not cool, but still. I'd rather it be that. That is EQUAL. I'm not a second class citizen and I shouldn't have to be treated like one. No one should be treated like one.

Either way, that wasn't what that comment was for. It was for clarification. Because if you're traveling, period, you should be as clear on laws as possible before going to a new place. That's something EVERY traveler should do for EVERY country if you're unsure of a law. Better to error on the safe side, but if you're told you'll be safe if you don't Rally or Demonstrate and you get arrested for something you don't consider a Demonstration? That's my point. What is a Demonstration? What is a Rally? These terms need to be defined for us by Putin/ Russian law with regards to this specific law, or any law. Simply because I take that statement to refer to any kind of rally/demonstration not just Pro/Anti LGBT. (because let's face it. Some will go and be like Rally to Support this law....)

[Dashenka]

Booze makes you do a lot of stupid things sweetie, and I assure you spectators will likely be drinking.

This still doesn't answer my question though. A group of people wearing propaganda and just going out but not protesting could have the appearance of a rally. How does he plan on handling this is my question. And more importantly how do the police plan on handling this?


[/quote]

Being drunk in public isn't allowed and you can get a fine for that in Russia. People wearing propaganda and just going out could be arrested I guess but I think the police will be a bit more tolerant in Sochi around that time.

I'd be very surprised if anybody acting normal is going to be fine. Even if they kiss their lover in their enthusiasm.

I'm not getting into the discussion about second class citizens because apparently the moral values in Russia and the US and Canada differ. (As proven in this topic.)

[Oniya]

Define 'acting normal'.  I've been struggling with that one since fifth grade.

[Callie Del Noire]

Define 'acting normal'.  I've been struggling with that one since fifth grade.

I've been trying to figure that out since something like.. oh.. my first memory.

[Dashenka]

Define 'acting normal'.  I've been struggling with that one since fifth grade.

Not overly present. Don't shout. Don't wear funny wigs. Don't taunt the police. Don't do anything you wouldn't do at home.

[gaggedLouise]

Not overly present. Don't shout. Don't wear funny wigs. Don't taunt the police. Don't do anything you wouldn't do at home.

I recall hearing of how some prominent Moscow politician (the mayor or somebpdy close to him?) answered the question "Why is it seen as so extreme to organize a Gay Pride parade in Moscow if it's just one day out of 365?". His reply was "Well, maybe in your country you have parades for drunkards cheering themselves?"

I think this sarcastic (or insulting) line indicates some of the issue on the Russian side, it shows the gulf of mistrust.

[Dashenka]

He has a point.

[Rogue]

Being drunk in public isn't allowed and you can get a fine for that in Russia. People wearing propaganda and just going out could be arrested I guess but I think the police will be a bit more tolerant in Sochi around that time.

I'd be very surprised if anybody acting normal is going to be fine. Even if they kiss their lover in their enthusiasm.

I'm not getting into the discussion about second class citizens because apparently the moral values in Russia and the US and Canada differ. (As proven in this topic.)

Oh. *laughs* well I didn't know that since I haven't looked up a lot of their laws. (Not planning on visiting any time soon) So drinking in public isn't allowed at all? That's funny considering the stereotype surrounding Russians and Vodka. (Not that I believe it's true, just a stereo type that exists)

And pretty much apparently the moral values between Russia and a lot of the modern world differ. :) IMHO. Because feeling forced to leave a country because you feel unsafe because of who you are is an example of what I would consider being in a "Second class" situation. >.>

Not overly present. Don't shout. Don't wear funny wigs. Don't taunt the police. Don't do anything you wouldn't do at home.

You'd be surprised what many people consider "normal" behavior. Overly present is some people's personality types. :) Also there's a regular I have at my store. Sweetest guy. And he just has an "Overly present" thereness to him because he dresses as he wants (Which is androgenous leaning towards femme). It's totally normal for him. And being in regular masculine clothes would probably bug him. Same for women who dress in a more masculine manner. This isn't "Normal" by cisgendered definitions but is totally normal to them. Not "normal" by your definition but definitely going to stand out because it's not cisgendered and therefore not "Normal"

"Well, maybe in your country you have parades for drunkards cheering themselves?"

*giggles* This, my friends, is what we in the southern US call Mardi Gras.... So going to visit New Orleans one day.... *smiles wistfully*

He has a point.

You can have a sober Pride March. Just saying.... >.>

[Cyrano Johnson]

His reply was "Well, maybe in your country you have parades for drunkards cheering themselves?"

The funny thing about that quote is that in North America we in fact do have these: they're called St. Paddy's Day parades. (Yes, yes, technically they're supposed to be "celebrations of Irish heritage" or some such thing. In practice that just means the beer is green.)

Of course there are slight differences in context.

[Oniya]

*giggles* This, my friends, is what we in the southern US call Mardi Gras.... So going to visit New Orleans one day.... *smiles wistfully*

And then there's Cinco de Mayo, and Carnivale.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Funnily enough, I rarely hear many of the people who moan about exhibitionism at Pride complaining about Carnivale or Mardi Gras.

[Rogue]

The funny thing about that quote is that in North America we in fact do have these: they're called St. Paddy's Day parades. (Yes, yes, technically they're supposed to be "celebrations of Irish heritage" or some such thing. In practice that just means the beer is green.)

Of course there are slight differences in context.

Hmmmmmm.... Much different than American drinking....

And then there's Cinco de Mayo, and Carnivale.

*giggles* Also on my to do lists when I get rich. :)

Funnily enough, I rarely hear many of the people who moan about exhibitionism at Pride complaining about Carnivale or Mardi Gras.

I know right?

[gaggedLouise]

The funny thing about that quote is that in North America we in fact do have these: they're called St. Paddy's Day parades. (Yes, yes, technically they're supposed to be "celebrations of Irish heritage" or some such thing. In practice that just means the beer is green.)

Of course there are slight differences in context.

I could cite one or two festivals around here, especially Walpurgis Night (April 30) and some unofficial but highly public "yay! we finished high school!" events. Both kinds sporting some heavily stoned people crowding in public parks or on hired trucks with powerful signal horns.  ;)