mark of the beast?

Started by lindorable, March 21, 2013, 03:17:36 AM

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lindorable

http://m298.photobucket.com/image/rfid%20chip/massmutiny/rfid-chip.jpg.html?o=6
Ok, does anybody know anything about the rfid chips coming soon? I'm up for discussion if you are.
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Caehlim

You're showing a picture of a device that monitors glucose levels in diabetics (source).

It's an amazing piece of technology that will improve the lives of thousands of people. I would be happy to discuss it.

However the title of this thread implies that rather than talking about this amazing medical technology, you want to talk about conspiracy theories like this page and perhaps this page.

I'm less interested in talking about that.
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OutoftheDust

RFID tracking devices and microchip implants have been the stuff of tinfoil hats and caused much thumping of the Book of Revelations since the 70's or 80's. Suffice to say you probably shouldn't be worried: crazy TV preachers have been predicting the Antichrist in human form and all the world switching to one currency since my childhood. I'm not trying to down anyone's beliefs, but prophecy involving the end of the world is notoriously inconsistent.

Oniya

Quote from: OutoftheDust on March 21, 2013, 07:36:58 AM
prophecy involving the end of the world is notoriously inconsistent.

Considering the events of the past year, I think we could say that it's been consistently wrong.  How many raptures did we have in 2012 alone?  And then the whole Mayan Apocalypse thing...
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Avis habilis

I'm bitterly disappointed in the complete lack of ork street samurai & dragon senatorial candidates we're still experiencing.

Ack Arg

Quote from: Avis habilis on March 21, 2013, 08:03:36 AM
I'm bitterly disappointed in the complete lack of ork street samurai & dragon senatorial candidates we're still experiencing.

I smiled.

It's pretty insulting when they start asking to stick them in your kids at school, kinda like when you find out the kid making seven bucks an hour flipping burgers has to have random drug tests. I'm not sure how much I like giving them to the dogs and cats either. It's a slippery slope to cyborg housepets running amok.

Also if I didn't want to be watched day and night by the powers that be I wouldn't have bought an Ipad.
Returning after long... long hiatus. May be slow to find a rhythm.

DarklingAlice

Quote from: Avis habilis on March 21, 2013, 08:03:36 AM
I'm bitterly disappointed in the complete lack of ork street samurai & dragon senatorial candidates we're still experiencing.

You and me both, chummer. You and me both.
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, elegant, and wrong.


Missy

Quote from: Oniya on March 21, 2013, 07:51:38 AM
How many raptures did we have in 2012 alone?

Three, but I'm an interdimensional traveler from the future.

Oniya

Quote from: MCsc on March 21, 2013, 11:57:58 AM
Three, but I'm an interdimensional traveler from the future.

*peers*

George Carlin?
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Callie Del Noire

RFID tech has been around for a long bit of time. You use it for stock tracking in warehouses, and even monitor inventory levels in stores. You want to get paranoid, consider that every cell phone made in the US is now REQUIRED to have GPS Tracking that can't be turned off. It's a very open world in many ways, but when you consider what can be done against what SHOULD be allowed you'll wind up one of three things. Depressed, angry and/or paranoid.

I think we're hitting one of those points where tech is outpacing regulation and till we realize just what sort of genie we're letting out of the bottle, a lot of potential abuse can be done.

That being said.. a lot of potential GOOD can be done too. Remote medical monitoring? Sounds good. The ability to access your funds without a debit/credit card. Nice. The ability to know where folks on the sex registry are at any given time? That is where you start to get on a slippery slope.

We've given up a LOT of our rights to privacy in the last decade or so. We need to stop being twitchy about 'invasions' and consider things by not only what they do.. but what they COULD do. Due process has taken some hits over the years and these innovations can work for or against them.

Caela

I think RFID chips are one of those things that have a lot of valuable uses, and a lot of potential for abuse as well...all depending on the people making them, and the gullibility of the people buying/using them.

But that's true of most technology these days. So much of what we do in our day-to-day lives is really nothing more than electronic pulses across wires. Heck even most of our "money" isn't really money anymore, it's electronic blips being sent from my bank account, to the accounts of those I owe money to, with no real cash ever going anywhere. Most of our computers are connected to some sort of wireless system and, as Callie mentioned, even our phones can be used to trace where we are...or where they are anyway, you could choose to leave your phone at home.

I don't see this being some grandiose, "Mark of the Beast". No one is trying to force you, or your children, to be chipped and monitored. I think for people, like diabetics, who have an illness that needs to be monitored it is a fantastic thing. No more needles, a continuous tracking of their sugar levels, and ease of transferring information to their physicians are all good things.

TaintedAndDelish

Funny, at first I thought that image was some sort of geeky vibrator.  ::)

So as I'm reading this, I'm saying to myself, "Fuck no... Nobody's going to let someone implant one of these in their brain without a hell of a fight." Then the thought came: How do you make someone Willingly accept the chip?

Would you let Google "chip" your brain if they offered you a monthly stream of money from interested advertisers who just want to know where Joe anonymous goes on a daily basis?

Would you accept the chip if doing so made you eligible for higher pay or for significant tax breaks?

Would you do it if your religious organization insisted that all members do it?


lindorable

Quote from: Oniya on March 21, 2013, 07:51:38 AM
Considering the events of the past year, I think we could say that it's been consistently wrong.  How many raptures did we have in 2012 alone?  And then the whole Mayan Apocalypse thing...
Oniya, I totally understand where you are coming from, but another thing to consider, is that the bible states that  you cannot predict the exact time or day that the world is going to end. There actually have been A LOT of event that were predicted in the bible that have taken place. Have you ever heard of the 9 harbingers? http://www.cbn.com/700club/guests/bios/jonathan_Cahn_010312.aspx
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lindorable

Quote from: TaintedAndDelish on March 21, 2013, 10:10:20 PM
Funny, at first I thought that image was some sort of geeky vibrator.  ::)

So as I'm reading this, I'm saying to myself, "Fuck no... Nobody's going to let someone implant one of these in their brain without a hell of a fight." Then the thought came: How do you make someone Willingly accept the chip?

Would you let Google "chip" your brain if they offered you a monthly stream of money from interested advertisers who just want to know where Joe anonymous goes on a daily basis?

Would you accept the chip if doing so made you eligible for higher pay or for significant tax breaks?

Would you do it if your religious organization insisted that all members do it?
That is a very good point. I was kind of thinking the same thing. But, I do know that without the chip you have no access to any of your money, job, food, nothing. The chip will completely take over the way we do life now. The government has also been working on the "One World Order" Which, in a lot of today's music, you hear a lot about it if you actually listen closely. Most of this is part of the Illuminati. I don't know all too much about the Illuminati, but I do know that almost all of todays music is part of it, aswell as politics. The Illuminati is pretty much trying to take over our lives. And I personally am a Christian. They've already begun building concentration camps and such for Christians. If you even admit that you believe in Jesus Christm, you will be immediately stuck in a concentration camp. I honestly believe this is going to be happening within the next few years.
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Shadow879

Quote from: Oniya on March 21, 2013, 11:59:00 AM
*peers*

George Carlin?

That made me giggle.

Quote from: TaintedAndDelish on March 21, 2013, 10:10:20 PM
Funny, at first I thought that image was some sort of geeky vibrator.  ::)

So as I'm reading this, I'm saying to myself, "Fuck no... Nobody's going to let someone implant one of these in their brain without a hell of a fight." Then the thought came: How do you make someone Willingly accept the chip?

Would you let Google "chip" your brain if they offered you a monthly stream of money from interested advertisers who just want to know where Joe anonymous goes on a daily basis?

Would you accept the chip if doing so made you eligible for higher pay or for significant tax breaks?

Would you do it if your religious organization insisted that all members do it?



Scenario one: Maybe if it was a LOT OF F*ING MONEY. I'd do what I pleased though. They'd see a sad, sorry individual chilling in her house a lot.

Scenario two: No.

Scenario three: HELL no.
Never back down, never look back.

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Pumpkin Seeds

You do realize that they don't need a chip to do half the things you are frightened of them doing?  :: wiggles a cellphone::  There really isn't much of your personal information that your cellphone isn't capable of holding, transmitting and discovering.  People pay for these and pay a whole lot of money to do this.  Those three scenerios are giving humanity a great deal of credit.  More than likely people would be paying for the chip.

lindorable

Quote from: Pumpkin Seeds on March 22, 2013, 05:08:54 AM
You do realize that they don't need a chip to do half the things you are frightened of them doing?  :: wiggles a cellphone::  There really isn't much of your personal information that your cellphone isn't capable of holding, transmitting and discovering.  People pay for these and pay a whole lot of money to do this.  Those three scenerios are giving humanity a great deal of credit.  More than likely people would be paying for the chip.
That is very true. All of our androids, I phones, Ipads, tablets, etc., all have GPS, but with the chip they can do everything that our smartphones can do, plus some. I definitely think it's going to happen eventually, maybe not this month or next but sometime.
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lindorable

Quote from: Shadow879 on March 22, 2013, 05:05:32 AM
That made me giggle.

Scenario one: Maybe if it was a LOT OF F*ING MONEY. I'd do what I pleased though. They'd see a sad, sorry individual chilling in her house a lot.

Scenario two: No.

Scenario three: HELL no.
I totally agree. They are going to have to do a whole lot of convincing if they think they're going to chip America. Lol
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Pumpkin Seeds

I don't think they would to be honest depending on the extent of the surgery.  So long as the chip was part of something useful and fashionable, there wouldn't be much of a problem.  As I said before, marketed correctly and people would pay for them.

lindorable

Well, the way they do it is by injecting it into yourhand witha needle. I saw it on a video. After its injected, you don't even notice it there unless you play with it.
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Oniya

Quote from: lindorable on March 22, 2013, 05:00:58 AM
That is a very good point. I was kind of thinking the same thing. But, I do know that without the chip you have no access to any of your money, job, food, nothing. The chip will completely take over the way we do life now. The government has also been working on the "One World Order" Which, in a lot of today's music, you hear a lot about it if you actually listen closely. Most of this is part of the Illuminati. I don't know all too much about the Illuminati, but I do know that almost all of todays music is part of it, aswell as politics. The Illuminati is pretty much trying to take over our lives. And I personally am a Christian. They've already begun building concentration camps and such for Christians. If you even admit that you believe in Jesus Christm, you will be immediately stuck in a concentration camp. I honestly believe this is going to be happening within the next few years.

You do realize that the Illuminati in it's current form of an 'uber-conspiracy' was a creation of the fiction writers Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea, right?  The trilogy is a remarkably fun read though. 
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

lindorable

Quote from: Oniya on March 22, 2013, 06:17:13 AM
You do realize that the Illuminati in it's current form of an 'uber-conspiracy' was a creation of the fiction writers Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea, right?  The trilogy is a remarkably fun read though.
Well, I'm from a small town in Idaho so I'm not as caught up as most people, I guess that would make sense. But what about the one world government that they've been working on for years? Or the concentration camps?
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Oniya

Due to the fact that we trade with other countries, there is a 'global economy'.  Due to the fact that we have travel between different countries, we have a World Health Organization (so that a disease that breaks out in Burma doesn't spread to Paraguay or Luxembourg.)  Due to the fact that there are certain issues that affect the planet as a whole, and we've only got one at the moment, certain issues are of global importance and have to be dealt with by an international body.

I would like to see some references about these concentration camps that you mention.  That sort of thing is exactly what the United Nations works against.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Vanity Evolved

Quote from: lindorable on March 22, 2013, 06:35:31 AM
Well, I'm from a small town in Idaho so I'm not as caught up as most people, I guess that would make sense. But what about the one world government that they've been working on for years? Or the concentration camps?

I'd also love to know who are making this 'Christian concentration camps' which are going to house those who 'even say the name Jesus Christ'. Are you telling me that you think there Christianity, one of the biggest major religions in the world, one of the most numerous in number and in power within most Western countries politics, are going to start rounding up Christians for some reason?

DarklingAlice

As someone who works with an international team to deal with health problems that affect the entire species, a one world government would be ridiculously convenient. Unfortunately, I doubt it will happen anytime soon.
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, elegant, and wrong.


Avis habilis

Quote from: lindorable on March 22, 2013, 06:35:31 AM
But what about the one world government that they've been working on for years? Or the concentration camps?

In secret, apparently, since I haven't heard so much as a syllable about it in the entire time I've been alive.

Ephiral

Quote from: lindorable on March 22, 2013, 04:54:00 AM
Oniya, I totally understand where you are coming from, but another thing to consider, is that the bible states that  you cannot predict the exact time or day that the world is going to end. There actually have been A LOT of event that were predicted in the bible that have taken place. Have you ever heard of the 9 harbingers? http://www.cbn.com/700club/guests/bios/jonathan_Cahn_010312.aspx
Really? The bible has gotten a statistically significant number of "prophecies" right? Citation sorely needed. As for the link you provided: Their entire argument hinges on how Isaiah 9:10 is obviously directly connected to 9/11.

Quote from: Isaiah 9:10“The bricks have fallen down,
    but we will rebuild with dressed stone;
the fig trees have been felled,
    but we will replace them with cedars.”

Obviously about the collapse of steel-and-glass buildings which are not being rebuilt, with neither fig trees nor cedars anywhere near them. Consider me unconvinced. It then goes on to build a whole raft of assumed "harbingers", warning signs of judgement that it claims are founded on this passage but, you'll notice, not actually found within it. Oh, and then there's the part where, even if you take all of this as true and acceptable, according to them the entire thing was fulfilled eight and a half years ago (and completely out of the order they provide).

Quote from: lindorable on March 22, 2013, 05:35:21 AM
That is very true. All of our androids, I phones, Ipads, tablets, etc., all have GPS, but with the chip they can do everything that our smartphones can do, plus some. I definitely think it's going to happen eventually, maybe not this month or next but sometime.
Tell you what: I'll make you a bet, renewing every year: We'll each wager $5000, to be donated to the charity of the winner's choice. I'm betting that your evil-conspiracy-chips will completely fail to materialize; you obviously take the opposite position. Sound fair?

Quote from: lindorable on March 22, 2013, 05:47:55 AM
Well, the way they do it is by injecting it into yourhand witha needle. I saw it on a video. After its injected, you don't even notice it there unless you play with it.
Let's see that video. I do hope it's not another example of a glucose monitor; that would be terribly embarrassing.

Quote from: lindorable on March 22, 2013, 06:35:31 AM
Well, I'm from a small town in Idaho so I'm not as caught up as most people, I guess that would make sense. But what about the one world government that they've been working on for years? Or the concentration camps?
Those books have existed for 38 years. There's not being caught up, and there's being actively misled. As for the other items: I don't suppose you have evidence for them? Actual things happening in the real world that clearly point toward them, not conspiracy theorist rants or vague Biblical passages?

Quote from: Avis habilis on March 22, 2013, 07:53:38 AM
In secret, apparently, since I haven't heard so much as a syllable about it in the entire time I've been alive.
That's because you haven't been reading the right conspiracy theorists freedom fighters.

Caehlim

Quote from: lindorable on March 22, 2013, 06:35:31 AM
Well, I'm from a small town in Idaho so I'm not as caught up as most people

But you have the internet and therefore access to the largest source of information and captioned cats in the modern world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

Just make sure you learn to fact check when searching the internet.

http://www.vikitech.com/454/get-your-facts-right-6-fact-checking-websites-that-help-you-know-the-truth

Markham Nolan: How to separate fact and fiction online
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TaintedAndDelish

#28
@Lindorable, I wasn't really sure if you were %100 serious about this conspiracy thing or if it was more of a playful topic. If you were serious, then I would suggest questioning the validity of very radical notions - such as huge conspiracy theories. By questioning the validity, I mean challenge the person who is saying/teaching these things and see if you can falsify what they are saying before you accept it as truth. If the speaker is saying things that cannot be validated, that are illogical, or that by design cannot be disproved*, then they are probably full of crap.

The more you learn to spot these inconsistencies, the easier it gets.

One of the biggest give-aways is the bold revelation of these "secrets".
Secrets are not common knowledge ;)  So when you see Joe Buttcrack on youtube claiming that there are swaths of cultists from a super secret cult wandering around and preparing for our enslavement, you have to ask the question "If its a secret, then how does he know this? And Why aren't people shutting him up?!"

*Disproved isn't the best word. What I mean here is that if someone's assertion cannot be validated by nature. An example would be that the great and powerful flying spaghetti monster is planning our demise. You can't see or perceive him because of his awesomeness ( therefore you can't disprove this either ).



Trieste

It appears that someone on Yahoo already had their question answered. Clicky. Fair warning, though - I think I lost IQ points reading the detailed analysis. ;)

Oniya

I skipped the detailed analysis and went straight for the Snopes.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Trieste


Oniya

"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

lindorable

Ok, there's no reason to be rude. It's not necessarily that I believe it, more or less just questioning and pondering. Sorry that I'm too dumb for you guys. It's not like I have the time to research deeply into anything.
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Sabby

I can't see anyone being rude to you :/ Unless I missed a post or didn't read a lengthy one close enough.

Pumpkin Seeds

There is a tone to the posts and such.  Though if posting in this particular area of Elliquiy a thicker skin is required lindorable.  Not that people are necessarily trying to be rude or mean, but people sort of come here with an expectation for the back and forth.  If not used to this sort of conversation I can easily see how the wording of some posts can be antagonistic and condescending. 

Neysha

Quote from: Oniya on March 21, 2013, 07:51:38 AM
Considering the events of the past year, I think we could say that it's been consistently wrong.  How many raptures did we have in 2012 alone?  And then the whole Mayan Apocalypse thing...

I got raptured last year.

They sent me back.

Naked.  :-(
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Healergirl

As to the tone of the discussion?

The forum is titled "Politics, Religion and Other Controversies."

Which pretty much says it all.    If you don't have a thick skin and are not  prepared to defend your position, don't post here.

This is not an endorsement of rudeness, by any means.

However.

It can be taken for granted that anybody contributing to an argument in this thread has a certain level of investment in their position.  Even polite counterarguments can get under one's skin when certain topics are in play - the list of hot button subjects is different for everyone of course.

In short, if you are not prepared to defend your statements, don't make those statements here.

RubySlippers

This is offensive? Lets see we have now in practice -

1. Universal use of the social security number as ID.

2. The Real ID a de facto National ID Card

3. A growing database of information accessible by government and private parties.

4. Laws requiring of reporting of major money order purchases at the post office ($3000 or more), laws saying if you have $300 cash it can be taken as evidence of drug dealing (at the discretion of the officers I suppose).

5. The Patriot Act

6. Other accesses to these and other sources of information.

And your concerned about a chip we have the Mark of the Beast sort of now if one looks at it objectively. And so called smaller government Conservatives don't fight this the biggest intrusion of government you can have.

DarklingAlice

Quote from: RubySlippers on March 27, 2013, 03:51:50 PM
4. Laws requiring of reporting of major money order purchases at the post office ($3000 or more), laws saying if you have $300 cash it can be taken as evidence of drug dealing (at the discretion of the officers I suppose).

On the subject of cyberpunk futures, I'm actually always surprised that we haven't yet moved to the point where hard currency is illegal. Not that I think it would be a particularly good or bad thing, just that we've been moving that direction for a while, but slower than I anticipated.
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, elegant, and wrong.


Healergirl

Darkling Alice,

I suspect the reason is simply that  the underground economy is a cash economy, and since not even the IRS seems certain just how big a chunk of the total economic activity in the USA is generated by the underground, there  is a strong reluctance  on the part of  The (Smarter) Powers That Be to take an action that might be considered shooting oneself in the foot.

Ephiral

Quote from: DarklingAlice on March 29, 2013, 09:45:27 AM
On the subject of cyberpunk futures, I'm actually always surprised that we haven't yet moved to the point where hard currency is illegal. Not that I think it would be a particularly good or bad thing, just that we've been moving that direction for a while, but slower than I anticipated.
I'm just disappointed that we're well on the way to corporate-ruled dystopia, but I can't pop into an outpatient clinic for new eyes.

DarklingAlice

Quote from: Ephiral on March 29, 2013, 11:02:33 AM
I'm just disappointed that we're well on the way to corporate-ruled dystopia, but I can't pop into an outpatient clinic for new eyes.

That was never an outpatient procedure...most GMs just didn't roll for recovery time like they should cause who wants their elite team of mercenaries sitting around the hospital like blind mice?
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, elegant, and wrong.


Trieste

Could make it a not-a-patient procedure like in Minority Report...

Ephiral

Bah, whatever. I just want my chrome.  :-(

Oniya

I want my decker kit.  And my pointed ears.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Trieste

Normally I would use the google machine but I'm limited by phonage. What is a decker kit? Like, some sort of brass knuckle implant? (I.e 'decking' someone)

Oniya

Deckers are the ones that can plug directly into the Internet and run around in it.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Ephiral

And get their brains fried by it. That's where I wanted to be initially, but... lately I've been kinda enamored with the idea of just how ridiculously awesome the level of information, processing, and cross-referencing available in such a setting would be. Without the brain-cooking side effects.

Now, a decker best friend, that I can get behind.

Cthonig

Quote from: DarklingAlice on March 29, 2013, 11:12:34 AM
That was never an outpatient procedure...most GMs just didn't roll for recovery time like they should cause who wants their elite team of mercenaries sitting around the hospital like blind mice?
That would be an interesting scenario: you're all laying around recovering from eye surgery when a team arrives to steal the facility's equipment and supplies – while you are currently blind, what do you do to stop them since you personally need the facility to remain functional?

Quote from: TaintedAndDelish on March 21, 2013, 10:10:20 PM
Funny, at first I thought that image was some sort of geeky vibrator.  ::) 
LOL. It does look a bit phallic.

Quote from: TaintedAndDelish on March 21, 2013, 10:10:20 PM
Would you do it if your religious organization insisted that all members do it?
This is extremely possible due to most religions having damaged their believer's critical thinking . But many religions are also anti-science/anti-technology bringing the likelihood down.


   Several people pointed out the various factors of reduced privacy and rights in America but that just points to it becoming a possibility in the USA. World-wide? Not likely anytime soon.


   Continuing on to lindorable's one-world NWO. Lindorable, have you really looked at the world today? The world is in such conflict and so divided that it will be decades before such a thing would even be remotely possible.
   As for the persecuted Christian thing – that's more bogus than the NWO idea. You have been sold a story that makes you feel good. The reality is that fundamentalists and evangelicals have been guiding other Christians on an anti-science/anti-technology crusade in America. The most likely people to end up in the concentration camps are the non-Christians with the Christians running them. Look at the repeated attempts to make Christian mores into law in opposition to the Constitution.
   Freedom of religion requires freedom from other people's religion.


RubySlippers

Quote from: Healergirl on March 29, 2013, 10:29:20 AM
Darkling Alice,

I suspect the reason is simply that  the underground economy is a cash economy, and since not even the IRS seems certain just how big a chunk of the total economic activity in the USA is generated by the underground, there  is a strong reluctance  on the part of  The (Smarter) Powers That Be to take an action that might be considered shooting oneself in the foot.

Serious estimates are GLOBALLY half the worlds people work in the informal economy and that matches the US GDP, in the US depending on the state that could be big. In NYC for example most street food vendors are off the books since getting a permit is impossible and the regulations are to strict. At least there are more than the very few thousand permits. Cabbies are capped to so gypsy drivers are there to. And since its not just the US most countries have cash and a lot of poor people don't use banks and some have no ID thanks to the restrictive laws eliminating cash would be an issue. My father won't use electronic transactions at all he loves cash and so do most poor. I don't since banking is for rich people.

In Europe we have people from there here did you do away with cash?

Healergirl

RubySlippers,

Half Worldwide, I cn believe that.  Considering  the poor-to-nonexistent record keping in much of the word, oh yes, i can believe that.

In the USA?  No, not nearly that high.  But a double digit percentage would not surprise me.  Enough to cause massive disruption if the abolition of cash forced all that activity to go on the books and become subject  require real record-keeping and regulation.

RubySlippers

I said worldwide in the US it depends largely on location rural people and those in high tax states who make cash heavy income examples California and New York. If comes down to can you live on just cash surprisingly easier now that two decades ago and can you keep the cash out the tracking ability of the IRS again either to low to notice or off tracking points banks or reportable large purchases.

But if you include criminal income and not overtly clearly criminal cash income it is estimated ,from the book I read, around 15% this includes though income that is reportable but isn't. But its not an easy thing to track.

For example a home hair weaving business might require a cosmetology license so the woman might run it at home without one and not pay taxes on the income since she only takes cash and advertise by word of mouth and on local message boards in businesses (old fashioned) if this party avoids banks and earns a modest income its unlikely she would be found out. Rural businesses are even less likely the local sheriff is unlikely to go after a local farmer doing small engine repair for an extra income after all.

Note though in some countries they would die economically without the informal economy, its just part of the of the global economic system.

Healergirl

The IRS has actually gone on record as saying that making it impossible for people to work because they are unable find affordable child care they can trust is not in society's best interest.

This was heard on an NPR interview program while driving so I can't give a hard source for it.  The spokeman was discussing the undocumented deals made by working parents with their neighbors and relatives for child care among other things.

And to hear an actual IRS person say such a thing was jaw-dropping.

RubySlippers

Is that so odd why hire a stranger when you can pay a sister with room & board, some money to live in and take care of the children the money in cash as an example. And it can be cheaper for example have to pay out say $250 a month and room & board for the care of two children plus it would be a close relative you can trust.


BCdan

I am fine with the RFID as long as its entirely optional.  Making it mandatory to be tracked or identified without warrant is a pretty obvious invasion of my privacy. 


~I enjoy random PM's~

RubySlippers

It won't likely remain optional for long, look what they did with the SSN it used to be used narrowly now its your national ID number for everything. The replaced state ID systems with a national one just it appears to be a state ID. An implanted chip will likely be encouraged at birth for the good of the child as a lifelong chip for their safety or something.


Ephiral

...did people miss the part where it's a blood-glucose monitor, and there is no chip nor any plan for one that does anything that could be considered a breach of privacy?

RubySlippers

The technology could easily be storing of personal information, records and even banking information once it becomes acceptable to implant and what about implanting a newborn to track it with a GPS for the child's safety. I'm not being paranoid here again after 9/11 national ID became acceptable but done through the states to not appear to most being national ID nevertheless.

And SSN are used for what, everything, not just narrow demands of the government using it for income taxation to a general ID that was creeping in for years.

I'm saying the jump will happen to implanting it as the norm but it could happen.

Ephiral

Quote from: RubySlippers on March 30, 2013, 11:36:04 AM
The technology could easily be storing of personal information, records and even banking information once it becomes acceptable to implant and what about implanting a newborn to track it with a GPS for the child's safety. I'm not being paranoid here again after 9/11 national ID became acceptable but done through the states to not appear to most being national ID nevertheless.

And SSN are used for what, everything, not just narrow demands of the government using it for income taxation to a general ID that was creeping in for years.

I'm saying the jump will happen to implanting it as the norm but it could happen.
...personal information, records, and banking information in 2 KiB, and GPS (and its power requirements) in a package small enough to practically and easily implant. Yes, you're being paranoid.

RubySlippers

How fast is the technology advancing and they could keep the information in a database and the access ID on the chip, and technology is advancing every decade what about in twenty year or fifty years?

Oniya

When they get a cell-phone down to implantable size, then you can start worrying.  It's not the data storage.  Hell, you can store gigabytes-worth of data on something you can clip to your keyring.  I could probably fit the entirety of my computer's hard drive, bloated OS and all, onto a data stick.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Ephiral

Quote from: RubySlippers on March 30, 2013, 02:36:40 PM
How fast is the technology advancing and they could keep the information in a database and the access ID on the chip, and technology is advancing every decade what about in twenty year or fifty years?
"In twenty years" is technology-speak for "We have no idea if this is even possible, let alone when". Additionally... battery tech isn't advancing anywhere near as quickly as processing and storage, and the battery and antenna are the physically limiting factors on GPS. You need a certain amount of power at certain wavelengths in order to communicate with GPS satellites. This is not avoidable, or something it is possible to design around. In short, you're worrying about something that definitely isn't possible in the foreseeable future, might not be possible at all, and would require several major advances in medical and power tech if it is. Still sounds like paranoia to me.

Quote from: Oniya on March 30, 2013, 02:44:18 PM
When they get a cell-phone down to implantable size, then you can start worrying.  It's not the data storage.  Hell, you can store gigabytes-worth of data on something you can clip to your keyring.  I could probably fit the entirety of my computer's hard drive, bloated OS and all, onto a data stick.
At this point, data storage is a limiter; it's just not the hardest one to overcome. As I mentioned, the storage of a rice-grain-style passive RFID tag such as the one shown above is about 2 KiB. That's not a lot of room to work with.

RubySlippers

Let see cameras all over, walk by camera, signals goes off and boom your tracked. Think outside the box at what various technologies together can do. I'm not religious but this does look scary depending how things are going.

Ephiral

Quote from: RubySlippers on March 30, 2013, 03:20:54 PM
Let see cameras all over, walk by camera, signals goes off and boom your tracked. Think outside the box at what various technologies together can do. I'm not religious but this does look scary depending how things are going.
I'm thinking from the perspective of what the technologies are actually capable of. There's "outside the box", and there's "outside physics". A passive RFID tag has a maximum effective range of five inches from a sensor. (This could theoretically be boosted with better antennas and more power to the sensor, but the operating costs are going to increase geometrically with the range, the sensors would be physically larger, and it would require designing an entirely new standard.) An active tag under normal conditions may boost this to 40 feet, but then you're complicating your already ludicrous power requirements even further. Either one of these can be stopped cold by a Faraday cage that is pretty trivial to incorporate directly into clothing. And exactly what the hell do cameras have to do with anything mentioned thus far?

RubySlippers

A great sci-fi example would be Idiocracy a scanner that picks up a bar code all had to have on the right wrist from any camera or Demolition Man what if the reader has a high level ability to pick up the signal the gadget in you doesn't. I don't think this is likely in a long time but it could.

Ephiral

Quote from: RubySlippers on March 30, 2013, 03:44:55 PM
A great sci-fi example would be Idiocracy a scanner that picks up a bar code all had to have on the right wrist from any camera or Demolition Man what if the reader has a high level ability to pick up the signal the gadget in you doesn't. I don't think this is likely in a long time but it could.
Sci-fi is unburdened by any particular need to exist within physics, and so makes poor examples. A barcode is particularly easy to subvert - doctor a few pixels. The Demolition Man example is completely non-functional - a passive RFID tag (such as the ones that have been discussed thus far) is powered by the signal from the reader - if it doesn't receive a signal, it's shut down. The physical size of the device sets a hard limit on how powerful a signal it can safely handle - and thus on how much range it has when broadcasting. I'd suggest you read up on the tech you're speculating about before you make any more impossible proposals - this is really layman-with-a-mild-interest level stuff.

Oniya

Please remember what the second part of 'sci-fi' stands for, Ruby.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Caehlim

#68
I don't know much about RFID to be honest. Just speculating though. Wouldn't multiple readers and RFID chips in close proximity continuously functioning have the potential to start interfering with one another? If everyone were chipped for example and the scanners were placed every few meters along a road, wouldn't we run into trouble with the signals overlapping and confusing the scanners?

We have two different RFID cards for the security system at my work, one for the building and one for my level. I tried sticking them together to make it more convenient and it never seemed to scan properly until I separated them again. This might have just been confirmation bias though, so I'm not convinced by my own anecdotal experience.
My home is not a place, it is people.
View my Ons and Offs page.

View my (new)Apologies and Absences thread or my Ideas thread.

Sethala

@Lindorable: You have me curious, and I'm sad I didn't check back on the forums here while you were still posting in this thread.  If you happen to still browse this thread and see this, I have two questions for you, and I'd love to try and talk more about what and why you believe.

The first thing I want to know is, how much of this do you really believe is true and how much are you putting forward as a discussion point?  Do you believe it's completely true and want to see who shares your belief, do you think it might be true and want some input on whether to believe it or not, or do you think it's interesting and want to know who else believes it?  The second thing is, if you believe it's true, where did your belief come from?  Mainly what I want to know is, was it something placed in front of you by others (for instance, a family member or friend telling you everything about it, or a pastor giving sermons on the matter), or is it something you found out about and decided to pursue on your own (such as by searching for other websites supporting the idea)?

Back to the current thread however...

This is probably just me having more optimism than is healthy, but... depending on how they're used, couldn't this monitoring system be a good thing?  For instance, let's say that when it's implemented, laws specify that it can be used to prove a suspect's innocence, but cannot be used to prove guilt or as a way to gain other information about a suspect.  In a case like that, if someone gets wrongfully accused, it's much easier to prove that they were 30 miles away from the crime scene by showing their ID tag being that far away, than it would be if they simply had an alibi with little or no witnesses.

Now I know the technology for it doesn't work that way, and that a lot of this is baseless conjecture, but if it's handled well I think something like this could improve things.  (Though admittedly, I don't think the current US government would be someone I trust to "handle it well".)

Ephiral

Quote from: Caehlim on March 30, 2013, 04:59:21 PM
I don't know much about RFID to be honest. Just speculating though. Wouldn't multiple readers and RFID chips in close proximity continuously functioning have the potential to start interfering with one another? If everyone were chipped for example and the scanners were placed every few meters along a road, wouldn't we run into trouble with the signals overlapping and confusing the scanners?

We have two different RFID cards for the security system at my work, one for the building and one for my level. I tried sticking them together to make it more convenient and it never seemed to scan properly until I separated them again. This might have just been confirmation bias though, so I'm not convinced by my own anecdotal experience.
Not generally. Max range under ideal conditions of a passive tag is about five inches - real-world is often half that. You had issues because both cards were in-range at the same time, but that's not likely if two different people are carrying them.

Quote from: Sethala on March 30, 2013, 05:02:12 PMThis is probably just me having more optimism than is healthy, but... depending on how they're used, couldn't this monitoring system be a good thing?  For instance, let's say that when it's implemented, laws specify that it can be used to prove a suspect's innocence, but cannot be used to prove guilt or as a way to gain other information about a suspect.  In a case like that, if someone gets wrongfully accused, it's much easier to prove that they were 30 miles away from the crime scene by showing their ID tag being that far away, than it would be if they simply had an alibi with little or no witnesses.

Now I know the technology for it doesn't work that way, and that a lot of this is baseless conjecture, but if it's handled well I think something like this could improve things.  (Though admittedly, I don't think the current US government would be someone I trust to "handle it well".)
It is extremely doubtful that any country in the world would pass a law like this, and even if it did I wouldn't trust any government to abide by it. (See also: abuses of London CCTV cameras.)

Healergirl

Planting RFID chips in people is going to run head on into the 4th amendment.  And before you say the conservative justices will have noprobelm with that, bear in mind that RFIDs in everybody might be seen as the sort of dragnet search people like the Conservative wing of the Suareme Court take a rather dim view of.  That sort of thing is very much what the 4th amendment was aimed against, and the conservative wing  perhaps surprisingly has a rather good record against mass searches without probable cause.  Or perhaps not so surprising.  They are Constructionists, and mass searches were a particular burr under the saddle for the Founding fathers.

Nadir

Can someone post a larger image of the one linked in the first post? That one is way too small for me to make any sense of

Caehlim

Quote from: Dim Hon on March 31, 2013, 01:10:33 PM
Can someone post a larger image of the one linked in the first post? That one is way too small for me to make any sense of

I looked for it and based on my search I believe the original source is one of those two conspiracy theory pages I linked in my earlier reply. Unfortunately it is the same size there. I have been unable to find a larger picture that is identical to the one posted.

However if you compare it side by side with this one (link) you should be able to see that it is the same device although they are different photos.
My home is not a place, it is people.
View my Ons and Offs page.

View my (new)Apologies and Absences thread or my Ideas thread.

Nadir

... now that is a beautiful piece of technology

Cthonig

    I found this product a while ago – advertised for tracking pets, suitcases, whatever. I have considered this for when my father's Alzhiemer's gets worse. Like someone mentioned above, we will likely pay to be tracked.
    But this demonstrates where we are right now. It has a range of 100 feet (line of sight) but the battery will only last 1 year – not something anyone will implant. The locating ability is currently limited and its use requires a bluetooth enabled smartphone.
    http://www.sticknfind.com/


Ephiral

Quote from: Cthonig on April 01, 2013, 12:26:48 AM
    I found this product a while ago – advertised for tracking pets, suitcases, whatever. I have considered this for when my father's Alzhiemer's gets worse. Like someone mentioned above, we will likely pay to be tracked.
    But this demonstrates where we are right now. It has a range of 100 feet (line of sight) but the battery will only last 1 year – not something anyone will implant. The locating ability is currently limited and its use requires a bluetooth enabled smartphone.
    http://www.sticknfind.com/
That's a bluetooth device - higher power requirements, but you get *much* better range and anti-interference capabilities. GPS, however, has power requirements many times worse than this. (Note that their larger GPS-enabled tag lasts for 1/6 as long.) BT also has an issue with rapid and open connections, and a hard limit of seven devices per master, making it a poor choice for wide-net monitoring or tracking.

Gypsy

Quote from: Dim Hon on March 31, 2013, 01:10:33 PM
Can someone post a larger image of the one linked in the first post? That one is way too small for me to make any sense of

http://spectrum.ieee.org/images/mar07/images/rfidef1.gif
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Nadir


worthlessfem

Everybody knows that Paul Ryan is the Antichrist and Mitt Romney was the False Prophet!

TaintedAndDelish

Well, if we're among the chosen few, then no need to worry.. according to the Jehovas (who's numbers are currently in the millions) that select few is 144,000.  They say the bible say so... so I'm not gonna argue with that.  ::)

There's supposed to be a great whore who turns everyone away from god. Where's she? I might want to tap some of that. xD

Sabby

I don't really follow these current gen conspiracy theories for the same reason I don't follow current gen DC crossovers. There's too much vagueness, too much confusion, and too much stupid from so many different sources. Usually I love talking about any of these concepts, but not when they pile up in one place like this. I considered asking specific questions about it, like which events were supposedly foretold, where these supposed camps operate, and so forth, but am I going to get actual answers or 6 new tangents to each question?

Deamonbane

Conspiracy theories aside, I think that giving a government too much power, as in knowing where you are, what you are doing, who you are doing it with (pun... maybe intended), what you're buying, what you're selling etc... for the sake of your safety, that means that you might be craving safety a bit too much... We always have to remember that, no matter what beliefs a country is based on, no matter patriotic the people are, people in the government are just that: People. They get greedy, they get jealous, they start wanting more cash, more power, more everything... And they will use things that are good, and turn them into something bad... For myself, I have nothing to hide, and the government has no reason to spy on me, except for a few odd beliefs here and there... So if they wanna keep tabs in me, not only are they evil, they are fucking stupid...
Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

RubySlippers

I actually have a non-violent option that would piss off the government and the system if enough citizens did it - stop using ID and ones SSN unless the latter is required by law a narrow list.

This means no ID use and going cash only day to day unless doing online banking but not using it or your SSN day to day it will drive them crazy.

Ephiral

Quote from: RubySlippers on April 25, 2013, 10:17:32 PM
I actually have a non-violent option that would piss off the government and the system if enough citizens did it - stop using ID and ones SSN unless the latter is required by law a narrow list.

This means no ID use and going cash only day to day unless doing online banking but not using it or your SSN day to day it will drive them crazy.
Is... is this actually a change, for the average US citizen? If so, my mind is kinda blown. The last time I actually pulled out my ID was... four years ago, I think? And my SIN... well, I've used that more recently, but only because I needed to to set up tax-free investments for me and my child.

Oniya

Lots of people don't carry cash on a regular basis.  Debit cards are the new 'pocket change'.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Ephiral

Quote from: Oniya on April 26, 2013, 03:27:07 PM
Lots of people don't carry cash on a regular basis.  Debit cards are the new 'pocket change'.
Oh, that part... well, yeah, I generally use debit, though I always keep enough cash in my pocket to get home in an emergency. But the ID and SSN thing... I'm not sure what you'd even need them for day-to-day.

Deamonbane

You need those for just about anything nowadays... if you don't intend on being a hermit, anyway...
Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

Oniya

Last time I pulled out either was at the tax preparer's.  Before that was at the auto insurance place, so they could see that Mr. Oniya was going to be the only driver.  (And that was only my State ID, not my SSN.)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Trieste

I don't put my SSN on anything unless it's legally required. I don't even put it on work documents that have a space for it - I leave it blank and tell them that they can come fetch me if they need my social for anything.

... thus far it doesn't seem to be driving anyone crazy, though... *shrug*

worthlessfem

Quote from: TaintedAndDelish on April 25, 2013, 03:53:33 PM
Well, if we're among the chosen few, then no need to worry.. according to the Jehovas (who's numbers are currently in the millions) that select few is 144,000.  They say the bible say so... so I'm not gonna argue with that.  ::)

There's supposed to be a great whore who turns everyone away from god. Where's she? I might want to tap some of that. xD

I think she's based in Babylon which is somewhere in Iraq!

TaintedAndDelish


Eh... Burkas, black mummy wrap, 100+ degree weather, blowing sand. Not my thing. :)

Secretwriter

My concern is that the links referring to Christianity seem to be on the jesus-is-savior.com level... Which is pretty much extreme radical fanatical wack jobs who say everything is wrong and that aliens are going to probe us. And that kind of pisses me off, because I am a Christian. I do not want to be represented by that trash. Conspiracy theories and political agenda are too much a part of those sites. I do not believe in the Christian concentration camps, the chipping, or the mark of the beast. It's offensive to be lumped in with that. Seriously.

Secret's Bio | Tanja's Bio


I see hell in your eyes. Taken in by surprise. And touching you makes me feel alive.

♦ Kitty's Brain ♥ Pockets's Lucky Charm ♥ Doom Cookie Monster ♥ Shade's Spanking Machine ♥ Najdan's Sinful Little Devil ♦

TaintedAndDelish


No disrespect intended, but the "Mark of the beast" is straight from the bible.

Quote16And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred three score and six.

Some Christian groups claim that the bible can be taken literally - word for word, others state that not everything in it is meant to be taken literally. Others still claim that you need to take it in some special context or that it needs to be interpreted along side some other snippet of cherry picked biblical stuffs - conveniently putting the reader in a highly dis-empowered position.

Which Christian group is correct in the way that they interpret the bible? Don't bother trying to answer that... My point is simply to illustrate a larger problem.

Sabby

I wouldn't be surprised if conspiracy theories such as the impending One World Government could be interpreted from Biblical prophecies. Hell, I once heard someone claim that Obama being a Reptilian was foretold as a sign of the Rapture.

TaintedAndDelish

#95

Eh... Burn the Antichrist before he destroys the world. Makes logical sense, right? Sadly, this sort of thinking can have tragic results. The example below is obviously an example of extremist, irrational thinking, but I'm sure the people or person involved were convinced that what they were doing made sense and was completely rational. My point is to point out how terribly astray religious thinking can go.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/04/26/chile-sect-burning-baby/2116881/


Edit: Changed my original post after thinking about it some more. My original comment was tasteless.


Secretwriter

The mark is in the bible... I just find it to be a bit out there. If people are warned about it, it won't be let happen. They won't take it. But this mark has been mentioned forever, even in relation to Holocaust tattooing. Social security numbers. The list continues.

I really hope they catch the morons who burned the baby. That really upset me.

Secret's Bio | Tanja's Bio


I see hell in your eyes. Taken in by surprise. And touching you makes me feel alive.

♦ Kitty's Brain ♥ Pockets's Lucky Charm ♥ Doom Cookie Monster ♥ Shade's Spanking Machine ♥ Najdan's Sinful Little Devil ♦

Healergirl

What Secretwriter said abut the bby burners.  Iwould be going WTF?  Ub alas, I am a bit jaded, I've heard of crap like this before.

These whackjobs lack the faith of their out-there convictions.  Revelations states pretty clearly - unusually clearly, for that book especially,  tha the antichrist will not be known until (presumably) he makes Himself known.

chaoslord29

Quote from: Healergirl on May 14, 2013, 08:04:31 AM
What Secretwriter said abut the bby burners.  Iwould be going WTF?  Ub alas, I am a bit jaded, I've heard of crap like this before.

These whackjobs lack the faith of their out-there convictions.  Revelations states pretty clearly - unusually clearly, for that book especially,  tha the antichrist will not be known until (presumably) he makes Himself known.

The concept of the antichrist itself is something of a corruption from the original meaning. By all accounts, antichrist is a reference not to a particular evil entity, but to those who are not Christians, or those who oppose Christianity, or are otherwise anti-Christian (against Christ). The idea here is that in the same way that "we" (the Church) are the body of Christ, then the body of individuals who are against the church are the antichrist. Assuming you run with this interpretation, then just as you said it's pretty easy to tell who the antichrist is, because they make themselves known in anti-Christian actions.
My Guiding Light-
'I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'- Lord Havelock Vetinari
My ideas and O/Os:Darker Tastes and Tales

Oniya

Quote from: chaoslord29 on May 14, 2013, 09:47:57 AM
Assuming you run with this interpretation, then just as you said it's pretty easy to tell who the antichrist is, because they make themselves known in anti-Christian actions.

QFT, and because it provides a little context for what I really wanted to add.

Secretwriter:  Not to worry - the true Christians make themselves known by their Christian actions as well.  Even a heathen like me can sort the wheat from that chaff.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Healergirl

Well, if we ar going to bring corruptions of original meaning into play, 666, is the hebrew numerology value for Nero, I believe.  then you get into the whol "The Second coming will occur in thelifetime of thse who remember the end of the First coming thing."

Which implies that this earth has been abandoned to the devil - and several philosopher's have made the case for that.

chaoslord29

Quote from: Healergirl on May 14, 2013, 11:35:12 AM
Well, if we ar going to bring corruptions of original meaning into play, 666, is the hebrew numerology value for Nero, I believe.  then you get into the whol "The Second coming will occur in thelifetime of thse who remember the end of the First coming thing."

Which implies that this earth has been abandoned to the devil - and several philosopher's have made the case for that.

I'm assuming you mean Theologians or Biblical Historians there, as speculation on the fulfillment of scripture isn't really the purview of philosophy (Not to say there aren't plenty of Theologians who weren't also Philosophers).

In regards to the actual prediction of the 2nd Coming, I think as long as you interpret the Bible anything less than literally you don't have to assume the world has been abandoned to the Devil haha. Not to mention that the Devil himself is more of a creation of the medieval Church and Milton than anything based in scripture.
My Guiding Light-
'I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'- Lord Havelock Vetinari
My ideas and O/Os:Darker Tastes and Tales

Healergirl

If Milton had realized how influential his superb characterization of the Devil in Paradise Lost was going to be, I wonder if he would have written Him Below differently?  He created one of the great characters of literature in that work, and it is amazing how many people treat Paradise Lost as canon, literal canon.

chaoslord29

Quote from: Healergirl on May 14, 2013, 12:02:57 PM
If Milton had realized how influential his superb characterization of the Devil in Paradise Lost was going to be, I wonder if he would have written Him Below differently?  He created one of the great characters of literature in that work, and it is amazing how many people treat Paradise Lost as canon, literal canon.

Isn't it though? I mean, Milton's depiction is something of a synthesis of the evolution of the devil over the centuries, but the point is that it's the most cohesive representation of the Christian Devil, and it's totally incongruous with the depiction of the Devil in the Bible. Yet when people today think of Satan, Lucifer, Mephistopheles, Beelzebub, etc. they almost invariably picture Milton's fallen angel and leader of the rag tag rebel angels against God's Kingdom XD
My Guiding Light-
'I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'- Lord Havelock Vetinari
My ideas and O/Os:Darker Tastes and Tales

Healergirl

Quote from: chaoslord29 on May 14, 2013, 12:11:33 PM
Isn't it though? I mean, Milton's depiction is something of a synthesis of the evolution of the devil over the centuries, but the point is that it's the most cohesive representation of the Christian Devil, and it's totally incongruous with the depiction of the Devil in the Bible. Yet when people today think of Satan, Lucifer, Mephistopheles, Beelzebub, etc. they almost invariably picture Milton's fallen angel and leader of the rag tag rebel angels against God's Kingdom XD

Fundamentalists of the  Dispensationalist and  Dominionist stripes  do not want to hear that.  It throws a lot of the book of  Revelation's baby out with the bath water.

chaoslord29

Quote from: Healergirl on May 14, 2013, 12:28:20 PM
Fundamentalists of the  Dispensationalist and  Dominionist stripes  do not want to hear that.  It throws a lot of the book of  Revelation's baby out with the bath water.

Seems to me though there's a simple enough solution if only they were willing to double down on their own particular reinterpretation of the Bible: Make Milton Canon. Declare Milton the subject of Divine Inspiration, elevate him as a prophet and Paradise Lost becomes Scripture.
My Guiding Light-
'I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'- Lord Havelock Vetinari
My ideas and O/Os:Darker Tastes and Tales

Healergirl

Oh, that would set the cat among the pigeons.  Giving a Church of England author Divine sanction...  Oh I'd love to listen in to the debates over that by the Fundies!

chaoslord29

Quote from: Healergirl on May 14, 2013, 12:58:27 PM
Oh, that would set the cat among the pigeons.  Giving a Church of England author Divine sanction...  Oh I'd love to listen in to the debates over that by the Fundies!

Not that the fundy leadership has anything the Anglicans or Catholics would consider Divine Sanction themselves; or even much comparable by way of leadership. Seriously? Who speaks for the fundamentalists? Part of their whole problem is that even the most Biblically illiterate amongst them is a mouthpiece for the movement.
My Guiding Light-
'I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'- Lord Havelock Vetinari
My ideas and O/Os:Darker Tastes and Tales

Healergirl

The fundamentalist movement as a whole is very disorganized.  Pretty much the nature of the thing.

Secretwriter

Quote from: Oniya on May 14, 2013, 09:56:02 AM
QFT, and because it provides a little context for what I really wanted to add.

Secretwriter:  Not to worry - the true Christians make themselves known by their Christian actions as well.  Even a heathen like me can sort the wheat from that chaff.

When I was Pagan, I said the same thing. I still say the same thing. You can always tell when someone believes what they say or when they're spouting garbage. I get really irritated at Christians who read the bible and want to use every scripture against someone to discern how one should act or believe or who they should love instead of doing what they're supposed to and loving everyone and trying to follow the example of Jesus, who turned no one away and condemned no one. Not sure that sentence was all that grammatically sound, but heh lol I'm rather sleepies.

Healergirl - there are people who say that Revelations was about the fall of Rome, not a pending apocalypse. 


Any religion is disorganized, any run by humans. :P

Chaoslord - I agree. The Devil became more prominent when the Church started seeing people filling up the pews. The more people came the more Devil they got. It's like... modern day Horror movies. People flock to those because they give a thrill. It's just human nature to need something to fear.

However... to be honest, having been on more than one side of religious belief, if I had to chose between believing in a God that I wasn't sure was there, and with that having hope that things will get better and there's something other than me in control of my destiny -or- being with no belief, no hope, and no faith to look forward to, I'd still rather have hope and faith.

I'm not saying that I don't think that God exists, but if God didn't exist, then I'd rather live a life and a lie pretending that God did than sit on the couch with no hope at all and nothing to look forward to. I've seen far too many miracles in my time to think that there's nothing. ^.^

Secret's Bio | Tanja's Bio


I see hell in your eyes. Taken in by surprise. And touching you makes me feel alive.

♦ Kitty's Brain ♥ Pockets's Lucky Charm ♥ Doom Cookie Monster ♥ Shade's Spanking Machine ♥ Najdan's Sinful Little Devil ♦

Healergirl

Secretwriter,

I agree with you about Revelations, very much so.

Secretwriter

Well, personally, I'm kind of mixed... I think that part of it was about Rome, but some if it is about things yet to come. There's only one way to find out if I'm right lol and unfortunately that's to wait and see. ^.^

When I was in high school, I was having a discussion with an Athiest. He told me that if I was wrong, that there was no God, then I've lost nothing. If he's wrong, and there is God, then he's screwed. lol. I always kept that thought in mind over the years. The... many... years xD

Secret's Bio | Tanja's Bio


I see hell in your eyes. Taken in by surprise. And touching you makes me feel alive.

♦ Kitty's Brain ♥ Pockets's Lucky Charm ♥ Doom Cookie Monster ♥ Shade's Spanking Machine ♥ Najdan's Sinful Little Devil ♦

Oniya

Quote from: Secretwriter on May 14, 2013, 02:04:01 PM
Well, personally, I'm kind of mixed... I think that part of it was about Rome, but some if it is about things yet to come. There's only one way to find out if I'm right lol and unfortunately that's to wait and see. ^.^

When I was in high school, I was having a discussion with an Athiest. He told me that if I was wrong, that there was no God, then I've lost nothing. If he's wrong, and there is God, then he's screwed. lol. I always kept that thought in mind over the years. The... many... years xD

That's the old Pascal's Wager argument.  I'm a little surprised that an Atheist would bring it up, as it's usually used as a debate point in favor of belief.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Secretwriter

The guy was and still is pretty open minded.

Secret's Bio | Tanja's Bio


I see hell in your eyes. Taken in by surprise. And touching you makes me feel alive.

♦ Kitty's Brain ♥ Pockets's Lucky Charm ♥ Doom Cookie Monster ♥ Shade's Spanking Machine ♥ Najdan's Sinful Little Devil ♦

Oniya

Openmindedness is regrettably rare.  Props to him!
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

yobo

Quote from: Secretwriter on May 14, 2013, 02:04:01 PM
When I was in high school, I was having a discussion with an Athiest. He told me that if I was wrong, that there was no God, then I've lost nothing. If he's wrong, and there is God, then he's screwed. lol. I always kept that thought in mind over the years. The... many... years xD

If one consider the possibility of picking the wrong deity things gets a bit more complicated, considering all the religions in the world. ;)

Healergirl

well, yes, but other than Yahweh, they don't seem to care who you worship.

TheGlyphstone

Quote from: Healergirl on May 14, 2013, 03:05:30 PM
well, yes, but other than Yahweh, they don't seem to care who you worship.

I haven't made an in-depth study of Islam, but I think Allah also has a 'nonbelievers go to Hell' clause in the Koran....but that just reminds me of the old science joke:

QuoteA thermodynamics professor had written a take home exam for his graduate students. It had one question: "Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Support your answer with a proof." Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

    First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So, we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

    Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added. This gives two possibilities.

        If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

        Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

    So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Therese Banyan during my Freshman year, that "it will be a cold night in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then #2 cannot be true, and so . . .

    Hell is exothermic.

The student got the only A.

RubySlippers

Quote from: yobo on May 14, 2013, 02:29:34 PM
If one consider the possibility of picking the wrong deity things gets a bit more complicated, considering all the religions in the world. ;)

My counter to this is if a deity or deities made humans they would know at some point we would have unbelievers so why would an Atheist have an issue if I meet this reality I will admit I was wrong, since it would be proven.

Healergirl

TGS,

Supposedly, Allah and yahweh and the christian Jehovah are all the same God.

And thank you for reminding me of that story!

Oniya

*nods to HealerGirl*

The major difference in the 'Divine hierarchy' between the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) is the status of Jesus.  Was he the Messiah? Was he divine, but not the Messiah? Was he just a prophet? etc.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

chaoslord29

As a group, they're referred to as the Abrahamic Religions since each one traces the lineage of their chosen people to Abraham, as the chosen of God, and then diverge from there.

I'm shakier though on the backdrop for Islam; does anyone know if they heel to the mythology of the Torah/Old Testament? Is the creation story with Adam and Eve in the Garden the same for all three?
My Guiding Light-
'I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'- Lord Havelock Vetinari
My ideas and O/Os:Darker Tastes and Tales

Oniya

Within a certain degree of poeticness.  I found a searchable English-language Koran online, put in 'creation' and found this:

Quote[2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.
[2.31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.
[2.32] They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.
[2.33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?
[2.34] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.
[2.35] And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be of the unjust.
[2.36] But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.
[2.37] Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

chaoslord29

Quote from: Oniya on May 17, 2013, 02:00:39 PM
Within a certain degree of poeticness.  I found a searchable English-language Koran online, put in 'creation' and found this:

Seems like it's very clearly influenced from the Christian/Greek reinterpretation of the story of the Garden according to the original Judaic tribes. No mention of Eve at all, even. Where does that appear in the Koran? As the defining creation myth?
My Guiding Light-
'I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'- Lord Havelock Vetinari
My ideas and O/Os:Darker Tastes and Tales

Oniya

I'm guessing it's near the beginning from the numbers.  Creation myths are usually the first part of any compendium.  Eve is mentioned, just not by name - verse 2.35
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

chaoslord29

Quote from: Oniya on May 17, 2013, 04:10:39 PM
I'm guessing it's near the beginning from the numbers.  Creation myths are usually the first part of any compendium.  Eve is mentioned, just not by name - verse 2.35

If she's not mentioned by name, the Koran may very well be talking about one of Adam's other wives. Though I suppose that Eve is the most likely, given the other more-Christian/less-Judaic influences.
My Guiding Light-
'I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'- Lord Havelock Vetinari
My ideas and O/Os:Darker Tastes and Tales

Oniya

Well, the next verse indicates that particular wife was part of the Fall (But the Shaitan made them both fall from it), so I'm laying odds on it being the same figure, regardless of name.  (Kind of like that Hera/Juno thing.)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17