Video Game's gay love scene stirs controversy

[Kurzyk]

Globe Life: Family and Relationships

This is really interesting. The gaming world has been stereotypical in roles for a long time. It's about time it diversified.

[Raveled]

It's funny; this is being hailed (on one hand) as a liberal, epoch-defining event, that a video game has a well-developed gay relationship... Except that the character in question, Zevran, explicitly states that it's a one-off fling, merely for the fun of it.  Ha ha.

Though I will say, it's nice to see the article not that yes, this game is marketed and designed for adults, not children.

[Jude]

In the case of Dragon Age Origins, the gay relationship is such an incredibly tiny unimportant part of the game.  They put very little effort into creating it.  All of the romance scenes in that game are incredibly hilarious in how crudely (not in a good way) done they are.  This is also far from the first game to include hints of homosexuality in it.

First game I can recall was Shadow Hearts:  in every one of those games, there was at least one important homosexual (or in the latter games homosexual couple) posing at a merchant.  They helped you out, but there were also stereotypical homosexual jokes involved.  Lets see if I can dig up any links...

Here:  http://gaygamer.net/2006/07/top_20_gayest_video_game_chara_17.html

[Raveled]

Jade Empire allowed M/F, F/M, M/M, F/F, and M/F/F relationships.  Yes, your character can get into a polyamorous relationship.

Sex and relationships tend to be a recurring theme for Bioware games.  Jade Empire had it, KOTOR had it, NWN had it, Arcanum had a gorram brothel, and of course Mass Effect had sex outside of your species (though then again, so did Arcanum...).  It's just one of their things, like using elevators to disguise load times.

In the case of Dragon Age Origins, the gay relationship is such an incredibly tiny unimportant part of the game.  They put very little effort into creating it.  All of the romance scenes in that game are incredibly hilarious in how crudely (not in a good way) done they are.  This is also far from the first game to include hints of homosexuality in it.

Interestingly, both Zevran and Morrigan can be romanced 'out of the gate,' i.e. you can get their sex scenes very quickly.  It's Alistar and Leliana who take more time to develop.  It's an interesting and very subtle difference between the characters, and nicely done.  Considering that all previous Bioware games the sex scenes were basically at a predetermined point in the game, it shows a bit of progression in their storytelling.  It makes me hopeful for ME2.

[Callie Del Noire]

I'm still trying to score with Leliana. Allistar is soo pissed at me right now (wasn't able to save the boy without blood magic.. man was he MAD.)

[Brandon]

I believe it was fear effect 2 that showed the first fully gay couple in video games (or at least the first that I know of). There was actually a plot between the lesbian couple that was beautiful and seemed natural to me.

The controversy IMO is only because its 2 men. Our soceity as a whole seems to either accept or ignore lesbian couples yet if its 2 men together its like some holocaust.

[Serephino]

Actually, Lesbian action is poular with the general public... men anyway.  I remember when the TV show Friends I think it was had a Lesbian kiss.  Shortly after that many other shows did it too for ratings.  The kiss between Brittney Spears and Madonna at some award show was hot.  When Adam Lambert did a homosexual kiss this year the complaints rolled in.  So yes, it is one sided, and no, it isn't fair.

Anyway, the first game I ever played where you could have a gay couple was Fable.  I enjoyed going around and marrying a man in every village.  Then came Sims 2.  I made gay couples on that game too.  The only part that sucked was that to have kids you had to adopt.  There was supposedly a way to get a male sim pregnant by an alien, but i never tried it. 

I think it's great that the option exists in games now.  Hetero males aren't the only ones that play games.  If there's going to be romance in a game, hetero shouldn't be the only option.  It certainly isn't the only option in real life. 

[Cold Heritage]

The controversy IMO is only because its 2 men.

Any sex in video games can be enough to send people up in a tizzy, even when the sex in question is grossly exaggerated. Remember the controversy over Mass Effect?

[Braioch]

I was actually quite impressed with Bioware's move on including sex scenes like that. They were done classy enough, yet you knew exactly what was going on at the same time. They were really no different than some of the sex scenes you see in movies.

Yes it was mildly irritating to have the M/M relationship in the game be a stereotypical fling (while my lesbian friend pointed out that the lesbian relationship was pretty stereotypical, ya know, lesbians second date involves a moving truck and all that), but you take what you can get I suppose.

Still, a M/M with Allistar would have been hot XD

Anyways, people will always make a fuss about the most stupid of things, and I honestly enjoyed the game and the little side bits of having a relationship with some of your party members is a small yet enjoyable part of the game that you can CHOOSE to partake in.

[Jude]

I don't think it's bad that they've included homosexual relationships in video games; in fact I think it's good, but saying that they should make an effort to include homosexual primary characters?  Yes and no, it depends on the type of game.

It makes absolute sense in a "choice" game to add that in as a main-plot point for people who choose to game that way.  So for BioWare games, yes, that's no a brainer to cater to that audience.  However, when you start getting into games without "choice" and dedicated narrative, it's important to give your game mass-appeal.  If you work homosexuality heavily into the plot in a way that people can't relate to, it will result in a disconnect for immersion.

It's the same reason why in RPGs the "main characters" tend to be younger, male, and white.  They're appealing to their key demographics to give gamers "eyes through which they can relate" to view the story.  A lot of RPGs have a love story in them which is important to the plot, if the featured love story (which is not the case in BioWare, love stories are all side/optional in BioWare games) was homosexual I bet it would hurt the sales of the game.  Due to their interactive nature, Video Games tend to cater towards the majority rather heavily when they try and create immersive stories.

As a minority myself, I understand this, and just realize it's a consequence of capitalism.

[Talia]

The only way you are going to change the way that people view and accept life style choices, is to build positive awareness to it, show it, train the mind. Maybe then people can get more comfortable, or at the very least accept that it's OK to be different, even if its not something your in agreement with.

If your not absolutely on board don't buy the game.

They should have taught more options in sex ed...more about respect and the tolerance of others whom choose to live differently from the "norm".

[Kotep]

What I find interesting is that while both Mass Effect and Dragon Age had controversy surrounding their sex scenes, there was near to nothing in the Mass Effect hooplah about the lesbian option; it was all about the fact that there was sex.  There really is this weird double standard to homosexuality; when it's with with two men it's more disgusting than when it's with two women.  Maybe it has something to do with sexism, where it's easier for people to see two girls in love than two guys.

It's also interesting how the fact that you can have sex in this game is more controversial than the fact that killing a couple of rats in a cellar in the prologue leaves your character splattered head to toe with blood.

[Jude]

I think the double standard on homosexuality between the sexes isn't nefarious, but that it just has to do with what we consider our ideal of beauty to be.  Take Ancient Greece for example:  men were considered the ideal standard of beauty, lesbians were thought of poorly, and homosexuality between males was widely accepted.  Now we live in a society where everything is the exact opposite; I think it's just a function of that.

[goalt]

Hm. I was trying to type a post up, but I think it is just going to end up turning into a squee of my human female mage/Leliana pairing.

Zevran is easy to sex up, but harder to get an actual relationship out of. You can, though!

I'll also note that both he and Leliana are actually bisexual.

[Inkidu]

Yet, Grand Theft Auto IV: The Ballad of Gay Tony which is lauded for its well-developed homosexual namesake (though you don't play him) is not even bliped on the radar. Interesting.

[Ryven]

I was actually quite impressed with Bioware's move on including sex scenes like that. They were done classy enough, yet you knew exactly what was going on at the same time. They were really no different than some of the sex scenes you see in movies.

Yes it was mildly irritating to have the M/M relationship in the game be a stereotypical fling (while my lesbian friend pointed out that the lesbian relationship was pretty stereotypical, ya know, lesbians second date involves a moving truck and all that), but you take what you can get I suppose.

Still, a M/M with Allistar would have been hot XD

Anyways, people will always make a fuss about the most stupid of things, and I honestly enjoyed the game and the little side bits of having a relationship with some of your party members is a small yet enjoyable part of the game that you can CHOOSE to partake in.

My boyfriend was so disappointed when he found out Allistar was not one of the characters you could have a relationship with.

Also, they'll be updating the game with content and more people in the world you could potentially form relationships with.  I'm hoping that when more potential gay partners are added, they are not flings like the first one.

[goalt]

I've heard you can make Zevran not-a-fling, but it's harder than just sleeping with him, because of the kind of character he is. I've not played a male, or a female romancing anyone but Leliana, so I've got no first hand information.

[MercyfulFate]

I love that this is controversial. The only controversy should be how unbelievably awkward the "sex" and banter are.

I want a day where I can simulate real sex, more like the Hot Coffee mod, in a game. I know there's some out there that do this, Japanese manga style games but more mainstream.

Something like Heavy Rain in terms of the choices you can make, and sex. Imagine being able to choose whether or not to wear a condom, and other nuances? It would be amazing.

[goalt]

I've liked the dialog in DA:O a lot. But I'm also a biased fangirl.

The sex is a lot better with certain mods to remove certain bits of remaining clothing from the girls. :P

[Serephino]

My boyfriend was so disappointed when he found out Allistar was not one of the characters you could have a relationship with.

Also, they'll be updating the game with content and more people in the world you could potentially form relationships with.  I'm hoping that when more potential gay partners are added, they are not flings like the first one.

That's odd because I found a video on youtube with Allistair and a male character.  There seems to be conflicting info on this.  I intend to find out though.

[Brandon]

They should just start making all the characters bisexual that way you have the greatest freedom in the game.

[Raveled]

They should just start making all the characters bisexual that way you have the greatest freedom in the game.

But it would hardly be realistic.

That's odd because I found a video on youtube with Allistair and a male character.  There seems to be conflicting info on this.  I intend to find out though.

Citation Link, please?

[Serephino]

Dragon Age: Origins- Alistair likes men.

There's the video, but I found out you need a mod to get it to work

[goalt]

A mod or something. Alistair's not an in-game gay option, 99% sure.

[Serephino]

From what I can tell from reading, you download a mod to get a gender bending ring that turns your character female.  Then you start up the romance and you can change back.  The biggest downside is your body changes, but your face doesn't.  It's a good thing you can change back once the romance is initiated.

[goalt]

Ah, yeah, that was it. Gender bending thing, yeah.

[Raveled]

From what I can tell from reading, you download a mod to get a gender bending ring that turns your character female.  Then you start up the romance and you can change back.  The biggest downside is your body changes, but your face doesn't.  It's a good thing you can change back once the romance is initiated.

So, ergo, not in the original game.  Heck, I could mod the game to put Flemeth or the Archdemon into my game; doesn't change the game-as-shipped.

[goalt]

Right. But the glory of PC versions of such games is modding. :P

[Raveled]

Except that the "controversy" it generates is false.  Remember back to Bethesda's Oblivion; that game allowed you to completely disrobe your avatar and see them in their skivvies.  The dangly bits existed on the models, there just wasn't a way to remove a model's underwear.  Enter a modder who did just that, and it was the game publisher who had to modify their code to remove said dangly bits.  The fault wasn't on Bethesda, it was on the modder, but it was the good folks at Bethesda who had their name tarnished and had to change their video game.  Sort of like if I painted an erect penis on the hood of a 2010 Firebird, and folks sued the Ford Motor Company for the indecent image.

Most mods to include nudity are on the level of "nude Zoe;" tits just to titillate.

[Serephino]

Well in the original game you can have a gay relationship with Zevran, which is the controversy.  You can also be a lesbian with Liliana.  It's just Allistair you need the mod for... which by the way... IT WORKS!!!!  *does a happy dance*

For anyone who is interested;

http://social.bioware.com/project/566/#details

I had to go into the game files and use the update.  Then you use the ring 
like you would a potion.  You turn female, flirt, then turn back.  IT WORKS!!
You also get a ring to re roll your talents and stuff too.

[Raveled]

And Gary Gygax thought the Belt of Gender-Bending was a bad thing.

[Will]

Except that the "controversy" it generates is false.  Remember back to Bethesda's Oblivion; that game allowed you to completely disrobe your avatar and see them in their skivvies.  The dangly bits existed on the models, there just wasn't a way to remove a model's underwear.  Enter a modder who did just that, and it was the game publisher who had to modify their code to remove said dangly bits.  The fault wasn't on Bethesda, it was on the modder, but it was the good folks at Bethesda who had their name tarnished and had to change their video game.  Sort of like if I painted an erect penis on the hood of a 2010 Firebird, and folks sued the Ford Motor Company for the indecent image.

Most mods to include nudity are on the level of "nude Zoe;" tits just to titillate.

That's actually more like if Ford painted the erect penis on the car, and then covered it up.  It's a lot like the Hot Coffee situation with GTA and Rockstar Games, since their developers were the ones that included the sex in the game.  Even if you cover it by making it inaccessible, it's still strange and inappropriate to even have it on there to begin with.

[Raveled]

So if I use a pornographic image or video as the wallpaper to every computer in a high school -- something possible with an out-of-the-box version of windows -- that would mean that Microsoft is responsible for the smut because their programmers did not explicitly stop me from doing do?  I'm sorry, but that argument seems fallacious to me.

[Will]

If Microsoft including a pornographic image with the installation of Windows, which required only a VERY small mod to access and use as your desktop, then yeah.  In the end, they provided the content.  The only thing the modder did was access it.

As was mentioned before, modding is a HUGE part of PC gaming.  Game publishers are well aware of this.  The idea that they left this content on the disk, knowing that it would only take a small modification to access it, is (at best) extremely irresponsible.

[Raveled]

You had to go on the Internet, download a file, and follow some instructions to unlock Hot Coffee.

You had to go on the Internet, download a file, and follow some instructions to unlock naked avatars in Oblivion.

You would have to to go on the Internet, download a file, and follow some instructions to put porn as your Windows desktop.

I'm not seeing how these things are so very different that one is irresponsible, and the other is simply good business practice.

[Will]

O.o

I don't see how any are good business practice.  Beyond the usual "any publicity is good publicity" approach.  They are all irresponsible.

[Raveled]

My point is, to put porn as your desktop requires no change to the original code.  Getting to see Hot Coffee or twigs & berries in Oblivion does.  So I don't understand your point that one is irresponsible and negligent, and the other is simply business as usual.

[Will]

Oh, I see.  It takes exactly as much work to put porn as your desktop on Windows as it does to access the sexeh stuff on the vidya games, right?  This, however, is a bad analogy, as Microsoft does not provide you with the adult content, while the developers of these games do.  The providing of the easily-accessible content is what makes it irresponsible.

Anyway, we're way off topic... >.>

[goalt]

Why is it irresponsible to have adult content in video games? Note that any game with such content is rated M, meaning it's for adults.

[Will]

It's irresponsible because it was snuck into the games without warning or telling anyone.  An M rating doesn't suffice for full-frontal nudity and sex; I believe that would warrant an "AO" rating.

See here.
"No video game console manufacturer has yet to allow any game to be published in North America with the harshest ESRB rating, "Adults Only", signaling that the game is only appropriate for ages 18 years and up. Additionally, no major retailers are willing to set aside shelf space for AO-rated games. Although Grand Theft Auto San Andreas was given a rating of AO after widespread surfacing of an add-on originally deleted from the game, "Hot Coffee," in which the player controls a fully clothed sexual encounter. It was later fully removed and the game retained the M rating. GTA San Andreas is the best selling game to ever receive the AO rating."

[Serephino]

But from what I've seen, the sex in video games isn't that graphic.  Granted I have limited knowledge, but in Fable the screen fades and you hear cheesy moaning.  In Dragon Age it just shows random images of them together from the chest up (and females are wearing bras).  In Sims 2 they dive under the bed covers and it looks like they're wrestling or something.  Honestly, I've seen worse in PG-13 movies.

The romance/sex thing is just something that adds to the rpg experience.  You're role playing the character, and sex is part of life.  This very forum is the perfect example.  People role play sex here.  So is everyone who does something with adult content irresponsible?

The rating M means 17+  Is there really a difference between 17 and 18 year olds?  I know there's a legal difference, but I have to tell you, when I went to bed the night before my 18th birthday and then woke up 18 years old, nothing really changed.  I didn't suddenly become wiser or anything.  And let's not forget that most 17 year olds have had sex themselves or watched porn.  What you see in video games is tame.

[goalt]

It's irresponsible because it was snuck into the games without warning or telling anyone.  An M rating doesn't suffice for full-frontal nudity and sex; I believe that would warrant an "AO" rating.

In the case of Hot Coffee, nothing was 'snuck in'. Cut content was still locatable on the disk--but never within game. Only somebody LOOKING for it could find it. In the case of nude mods, that has nothing to do with the game creators. And even if something was 'snuck on', I don't see how that's irresponsible. There's nothing dangerous or harmful about nudity and sexuality!

[Raveled]

The rating M means 17+  Is there really a difference between 17 and 18 year olds?  I know there's a legal difference, but I have to tell you, when I went to bed the night before my 18th birthday and then woke up 18 years old, nothing really changed.  I didn't suddenly become wiser or anything.  And let's not forget that most 17 year olds have had sex themselves or watched porn.  What you see in video games is tame.

Is there a difference between 20 and 21?  How about 19 and 20?  I know I was as much of an idiot when I was 18 as when I was 19.  We could keep pushing this back to 7, and then argue that 7-year-olds should be able to buy booze.  Yes, it's a ridiculous argument, but it's a conceivable one.  The way our justice system works, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Oh, I see.  It takes exactly as much work to put porn as your desktop on Windows as it does to access the sexeh stuff on the vidya games, right?  This, however, is a bad analogy, as Microsoft does not provide you with the adult content, while the developers of these games do.  The providing of the easily-accessible content is what makes it irresponsible.

It's irresponsible because it was snuck into the games without warning or telling anyone.  An M rating doesn't suffice for full-frontal nudity and sex; I believe that would warrant an "AO" rating.

It was not snuck into anywhere.  It was impossible to access by normal means and then someone yanked it out into broad daylight.  It wasn't the video game developers that put the bewbies on screen.  Folks went into the game code, pulled out the bewbies that were never meant to see the light of day, and shoved them out there.  You could not take an out of the box version of Oblivion or GTA: San Andreas and see pixelated bewbies because IT WASN'T A PART OF THE GAME until someone opened it up.

[Will]

It could be argued that it was, in fact, part of the game because it was on the disc.  If it was "never meant to see the light of day," then why didn't they remove the content completely?  That's what is irresponsible.  And that's assuming the best of intentions on their part; they could have even slipped it into the game knowing that it would be accessed by modders, thinking it would be a cool joke or a good way to sell more games.

[goalt]

Sometimes, the way code works, cutting something out entirely may have unexpected effects. And there's still no irresponsibility. It's not like it's anything harmful being put  on the disc,

[Cythieus]

Not the first game to have gays really, not sure why its a big deal if there are gays in something. To each their own.

[goalt]

It's a deal because of the continual bigotry in much of the world.

[Raveled]

It's a controversy because there are still people who view video games as something that exists only for children, and the idea that sex exists in something that their kids might view shocks and scares them.  I'll agree that Little Johnny and Susie May shouldn't be playing GTA or Dragon Age or Mass Effect, just like they shouldn't watch the Departed, Lethal Weapon, or the first couple Die Hard movies.  It's part of a parents job to monitor the sort of stuff their kids are watching and playing and step in if it's not appropriate.

[DarklingAlice]

It's a controversy because there are still people who view video games as something that exists only for children, and the idea that sex exists in something that their kids might view shocks and scares them.

I think this is the main problem. If a game contains as graphic of a sexual encounter as an R movie it is somehow "pushing sex on children", despite the fact that  the age limit for accessing the content of that game and gaining admittance to an R movie is identical. Nude characters in an M game (which Oblivion is) should be perfectly reasonable. There are plenty of nude figures in R rated movies and you need to be seventeen to access each. I see this as a fairly glaring double standard.