Jesus Camp

[FM]

Has anybody else seen this documentary?  I saw it maybe a few weeks ago...I think it's a bit sad.

All I have to say about it is, "Poor kids."

[The Overlord]

Link? Book? Movie? 'Reality' TV?

[HairyHeretic]

Some sort of evangelical christian summer camp.

Haven't seen it, but haven't heard pleasent things about it either.

[FM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

I consider it a horror movie.

[RubySlippers]

I saw it reminds of what Muslim radicals are doing with children.

[FM]

I saw it reminds of what Muslim radicals are doing with children.

Every religion has it's sect of wackos.  The people depicted in Jesus Camp don't seem like Christians to me.  Lots of references to the things the apostles and whatnot said, but no references to the messages of peace and whatnot that Jesus said.

[Mnemaxa]

People like this give a bad name to the word 'faith'.

[The Overlord]

I saw it reminds of what Muslim radicals are doing with children.

Going to have to second this. "take back America for Christ." This line in particular bothers me, and can be interpreted more than one way, IMO each is in succeeding order of unpleasant.

Personally I don't have a real problem with putting my gun to heads of crusading Christians, if it came down to it.

[sciurindae]

People like this give a bad name to the word 'faith'.

*nodding* This is why I tend to try to view faith as separate though possibly synergistic with (organized) religion

One can have faith in something without organized religion, and one can have religion without faith. . .

Or to take another spin: intrinsic vs extrinsic religiosity

Basically what we see here is extrinsic religiosity (aka 'religion as a means'(rather than an end)).  Which, among other things, correlates with a heightened tendency for prejudice.  In other words what we see here is 'hollow inside', using religion as a construct to justify and excuse their actions and hatreds.  Their beliefs are independent of Christianity and would be the same even if they claimed another religion as a 'shell', much the same as Muslim fanatics.  When you get right down to it Christian and muslim fanatics both have more in common with each other than with either of the religions they are using as a 'shell'.

[Mathim]

At first I thought it was about a camp where they try to 'convert' gay boys like that South Park episode...but I heard about this before, from a co-worker. Pretty messed up stuff.

This reminds me of a small poster I saw back in high school. I don't know the full poem but it went something like this:

First they came for the pagans. And I did not speak up because I was not a pagan.
Next they came for the Jews. And I did not speak up because I was not Jewish.
Then they came for the Catholics. And I did not speak up because I was a protestant.
And when they came for me, there was no one to speak for me.

This is really all about a group mentality. I really have to wonder if most of these people really believe they're doing the right thing, or if they're just going along because their friends and neighbors are doing it and they don't want to be 'outed' as an unbeliever or something. Using fear to rally people to them even if they don't believe in it. It's like when I was a kid...I was tormented horribly but I never started attacking others. I did not want to become what I hated and feared. Some people just can't resist that, the power that becoming wicked grants. No matter how many they trample in the process (especially those they supposedly care about.)

[HairyHeretic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists,
And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists,
And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews,
And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . .
And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

[Mathim]

No, the one I read was distinctly different because I know for certain it mentioned a difference between two Christian-based religions at the end. But it had the same gist, yes. My teacher probably edited it, though that sounds stupid because you'd think the fewer religious differences on paper there were, the more the school would approve of it; they're really ornery about that stuff.

But it makes sense, right? People are probably just going along with it or not speaking out against it even though they're in the same sort of religion and don't believe in that. It's a crying shame the kids aren't given a choice about that. My uncle is a prime example of someone who is totally warped by this kind of religious brainwashing.

[HairyHeretic]

There is some discussion over the exact text of that poem. One version has the line before 'they came for me' being 'they came for the catholics', but the one I posted seems to be the most common one.

Its been taken and modified with any number of groups, so its entirely possible the version you heard was somewhat different to the one I posted.

[Mathim]

Ah, I see then. Cool beans. I'm just surprised the one with religious differences was allowed to be posted at a public school like my high school.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Having been around many Christians in my life, I can say that the kind of asshattery in that movie is uncommon, but does in fact exist.

[FM]

The movie is a good example of how Islam isn't the only religion with a fundamentalist nutty sect.

[Cecily]

The movie is a good example of how Islam isn't the only religion with a fundamentalist nutty sect.

Pretty much every religion has a fundamentalist nutty sect, unless it's very small, or if it's like scientology which is just packed full with whack jobs.

Anyway, about the documentary. I saw it years ago, and it was up for an Oscar but it was a good year for documentaries so the Inconvenient Truth won instead, of course. I think it's a very well made movie, even if it is a little disturbing. I highly recommend it! :)

[DefectiveTurret]

My father was (and probably still is) a very devout Christian. It is a good thing that he has something to believe in. It is NOT a good thing, however, to try to force his beliefs onto our family. For many horrible, traumatizing years, he verbally and emotionally abused my mother, manipulating my sister and I into going to church and telling us that our mother was evil for not believing in god. He would go to church every Sunday, Bible study every Wednesday (and would drag me to it as well), and any church event that needed his help. He spent most of his time preparing for lessons, as he taught Sunday school at our church. He wouldn't, however, take a minute to help my mother carry the heavy groceries from the car. She sprained her wrist this way, struggling to take care of the kids while my father did nothing but pour his time and our money into church.

It nearly ended in divorce. I still remember sobbing, begging my mother not to leave us. I remember promising to be a good kid from then on if she stayed. She did end up staying, but from then on, she was broken and submissive, afraid to provoke my father.

I know not all Christians are like this. I know that Christianity has its good points (all religions do, I'm sure). I even tried to be a good Christian myself. I found that it was not for me, though. For now, my opinion on Christianity is still mixed. But I am sure of one thing: I will never, never try to force my beliefs onto others.

Now I am wondering... why can't more people realize this?

[The Overlord]

My father was (and probably still is) a very devout Christian. It is a good thing that he has something to believe in. It is NOT a good thing, however, to try to force his beliefs onto our family. For many horrible, traumatizing years, he verbally and emotionally abused my mother, manipulating my sister and I into going to church and telling us that our mother was evil for not believing in god. He would go to church every Sunday, Bible study every Wednesday (and would drag me to it as well), and any church event that needed his help. He spent most of his time preparing for lessons, as he taught Sunday school at our church. He wouldn't, however, take a minute to help my mother carry the heavy groceries from the car. She sprained her wrist this way, struggling to take care of the kids while my father did nothing but pour his time and our money into church.

It nearly ended in divorce. I still remember sobbing, begging my mother not to leave us. I remember promising to be a good kid from then on if she stayed. She did end up staying, but from then on, she was broken and submissive, afraid to provoke my father.

I know not all Christians are like this. I know that Christianity has its good points (all religions do, I'm sure). I even tried to be a good Christian myself. I found that it was not for me, though. For now, my opinion on Christianity is still mixed. But I am sure of one thing: I will never, never try to force my beliefs onto others.

Now I am wondering... why can't more people realize this?

I've known people like this, to the point that they disturb you with their level of devoutness. It's like eiree mind-control or something, and why I go through life with perhaps a little ego that nobody owns my brain except for me.

There's a reason I speak out loudly on religion, people like this piss me off hardcore.

An aunt of mine got screwed up in a cult in the Portland area back in the 80’s, now she’s gone all Christian but she’s of the Orthodox Easily Offended Christian sect, she’s gone batty with some of her statements. Having grown up in a Catholic setting, but having cast all that off as the refuse it is over twenty years ago, I always laugh now how they all scramble to get to church each Sunday and not miss one. Like they're fracking Marlboro miles or something, and if you get perfect attendance you're going to get a front row seat in heaven.


Frack that crap. I often say people take their religion far too seriously. But if you tell them that they go into a frenzy, as if you just dropped 50 pounds of ground meat into a swimming pool of sharks.


Smells like irony.  :)

[JMadame]

What to say? Hmmm...
I have never seen the movie but I have seen many things like this in my life. I was raised as and consider myself to still be a "Christian", whatever that means. I believe in God, but do things my way.

And I can see many sides on many of these points of views. But I am the kind of person that accepts everybody for who and what they are. I don't try to change them, I just let myself love them. That's just how I work, and I personally believe that that is how God and Jesus meant for us to work. God doesn't love someone any less because they don't go to church , or they love somebody of the same sex, or they don't even know who he is. There are no limitations.

But I am sure of one thing: I will never, never try to force my beliefs onto others.

Now I am wondering... why can't more people realize this?

I agree with you on this one. If a lot of people, in a lot of religions realized this it would be a good thing, we would have a lot less war and suicide and a lot more acceptance. Then again I think that they are even a lot of people that don't really have any religious beliefs but force their ideas, whatever they may be about, on other people. That just sucks in general.

The one major difference between certain religions mentioned in this thread and chritianity is that most, along the christian lines, don't teach that killing someone is the answer. Now laying down your life for somebody else is the ultimate form of love, but not killing people, including yourself. And other religions say that killing people is the best, if not, the only way. I am not sure.

Now I don't know much about many of the religions mentioned, I just know what I believe and how I feel. I think that buddhism is really the best and most peaceful religion out there. ;)

Hehe, sorry that this has nothing to so with the movie really. I hope it's ok?

[Oniya]

My father was (and probably still is) a very devout Christian. It is a good thing that he has something to believe in. It is NOT a good thing, however, to try to force his beliefs onto our family. For many horrible, traumatizing years, he verbally and emotionally abused my mother, manipulating my sister and I into going to church and telling us that our mother was evil for not believing in god. He would go to church every Sunday, Bible study every Wednesday (and would drag me to it as well), and any church event that needed his help. He spent most of his time preparing for lessons, as he taught Sunday school at our church. He wouldn't, however, take a minute to help my mother carry the heavy groceries from the car. She sprained her wrist this way, struggling to take care of the kids while my father did nothing but pour his time and our money into church.

It nearly ended in divorce. I still remember sobbing, begging my mother not to leave us. I remember promising to be a good kid from then on if she stayed. She did end up staying, but from then on, she was broken and submissive, afraid to provoke my father.

I know not all Christians are like this. I know that Christianity has its good points (all religions do, I'm sure). I even tried to be a good Christian myself. I found that it was not for me, though. For now, my opinion on Christianity is still mixed. But I am sure of one thing: I will never, never try to force my beliefs onto others.

Now I am wondering... why can't more people realize this?

I am also no longer Christian, not due to any trauma, but because I found a Path that 'clicked' for me.  I have made a point of reading as many teachings as I can get my hands on, however, including the Bible (including some of the Apocrypha), bits of the Koran, and the Book of Mormon.  Sometimes, when the religion pushers come to my door, I find I can hold my own on the Biblical knowledge front (not so good on the others).

There are many passages in the Bible where the authors talk about people like your father - people who put themselves forward as 'pious' in public, but then treat their family like crap.  The one that comes to mind is Matthew 25:40 (had to look it up) 'Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me.' followed a few verses later by 'Whatever you neglected to do unto one of the least of these, you neglected to do unto me.' 

Like my husband says, read the 'red words' and you get a completely different impression of things.  The widow giving two cents is more pious than the wealthy men giving out of their largess.  The Samaritan tending to the wounded traveler is more pious than the churchman hurrying to temple.  Those that do nasty things in the name of any religion simply stain the image of their faith, where those that do good things just because they are good will make any group they are with look better.

[DefectiveTurret]

Frack that crap. I often say people take their religion far too seriously. But if you tell them that they go into a frenzy, as if you just dropped 50 pounds of ground meat into a swimming pool of sharks.

Yeah, I'm wondering how they get so brainwashed. My father was a nice family-type guy until he joined the First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley. Somehow, something they did there screwed him up. He's really not the type to fall for ... I don't know, blind faith I guess is what I'd call it. He's actually pretty skeptical. One thing I did notice, though, was this one woman named Patty who kept flirting with him-- even in front of my mother, who had gone to church for his sake. I'm suspecting that was why he wanted to teach Sunday school since Patty worked there as a teacher.

My general philosophy: if you try your best to be a good person and to help out others whenever you can (within reason of course), you will be happy with yourself and others will treat you kindly as well. I think most religions are based on this.

[DefectiveTurret]

Then again I think that they are even a lot of people that don't really have any religious beliefs but force their ideas, whatever they may be about, on other people. That just sucks in general.

That's very true. I don't think most people are douche-y enough to do so, though. Friends argue about their points of view all the time, but it's not to the point that someone gets hurt. Generally. People just really need to learn where the limits are. Freedom of thought and opinions: respect it.

"Like my husband says, read the 'red words' and you get a completely different impression of things."

I was also sent to a Christian school for many years, and although I highly disliked the Bible-toting and the blind faith, I did learn how to be a better person. It did make me more considerate. Most religions are pretty great... minus the violence and all that crap. I would really like to find something to believe in.

[overfiend87]

It sounds more satanic than a friendly christian camp. Mostly because of these: "Kids on Fire" "Devil's lake" and "Army of God" it all sounds very...satanic and is very weird. The only thing I liked about the girl is she doesn't look up to Britany Spears or Lindsy Lohan.

[Stattick]

I believe Sarah Palin is a Pentacostalist. As a matter of fact, I remember reading that her church has been linked to Dominionists and Joel's Army, a radicalized sect of Christianity that believes that we are living in the end times, and the time for them to rise up and take over the governments of the world by force and to force everyone to either convert to thier brand of Christianity or die is almost upon us. Apparently, they are uncertain if they they're supposed to be given thier Jehovah granted super powers before or after they rise up against the evil world.

Dominionism
Joel's Army