Orc slaves - fantasy NC game

[Miroque]

I cant believe my joinind date neighter.. there must be soemthing wrong with the counter.. 2011 on me..

[Haibane]

Thank you very much for your interest Aejlahael. In this universe the orc race has only existed for 6 years and has been created specifically for one purpose by a single powerful evil mind - to eradicate humans from the known world. Prior to the current war of a few months duration there hasn't been any contact between humans and orcs. Due to their short time in existence and their purpose, they therefore have no traditions, no need for magic and no need for a religion. I fully understand your points and in many other D&D styled worlds they are valid, but not here.

Furthermore its my experience (in any setting) that if you allow players too much freedom in choosing a character from a military society then most, if not all of them choose specialists of one form or another and a game that was intended to be based around a military unit ends up full of scouts, snipers, hackers, assassins, spec-ops 'one man armies' and anything but the grunts needed to fill the ranks and give the unit its purpose.

Sometimes it is good to play an 'ordinary' grunt. It will make you dig that little bit deeper into your characterisation skills to make him come alive. Stretching your talents is always good. As another player said above, every writer is different and each character has their own twists anyway. If you read a selection of orc player posts from the game you'll see several, even just a couple of pages into the game, who are highly distinct, comical or scary.

[Miroque]

Haibane +1. I would consider none of the orcs in game, being anything similar, except being savage brutes (what was the key assumption on the start...well...maybe not Bonk... )

That said, there are many aspects of Orc-i-ness not touched yet. Some are trying to better themselves among their kin, but noone wants to be the top-orc yet. Why not even top the wizard creating them, as he is human, ergo food to the masses. Sure, it might be an pipedream, but world is full of pipedreamers.

[Montagne]

Indeed. Even with these more constricted roles people have already found niches for their characters to play out. I've chosen a Warchief, others have chosen scouts, some leaders of soldiers and others just the heavy bruisers ready for battle. We actually already have a suprising number of specialists :P the limits keep the roles more cohesive towards the overall aim of the game. (the ravishing of all the women inside the fine city.  >:) )

I also rather enjoy their more brutal newly formed culture, the upstart race destroying the institutions of long lived civilizations is a rather interesting theme.

[vin26m]

Thank you very much for your interest Aejlahael. In this universe the orc race has only existed for 6 years and has been created specifically for one purpose by a single powerful evil mind - to eradicate humans from the known world. Prior to the current war of a few months duration there hasn't been any contact between humans and orcs. Due to their short time in existence and their purpose, they therefore have no traditions, no need for magic and no need for a religion. I fully understand your points and in many other D&D styled worlds they are valid, but not here.

Furthermore its my experience (in any setting) that if you allow players too much freedom in choosing a character from a military society then most, if not all of them choose specialists of one form or another and a game that was intended to be based around a military unit ends up full of scouts, snipers, hackers, assassins, spec-ops 'one man armies' and anything but the grunts needed to fill the ranks and give the unit its purpose.

Sometimes it is good to play an 'ordinary' grunt. It will make you dig that little bit deeper into your characterisation skills to make him come alive. Stretching your talents is always good. As another player said above, every writer is different and each character has their own twists anyway. If you read a selection of orc player posts from the game you'll see several, even just a couple of pages into the game, who are highly distinct, comical or scary.

Aejlahael, I have come to agree with the above viewpoint. 

I also had a female orc witch, a male orc shaman, and a male orc warlock that I wanted to play, but RedEve rightfully rejected them for this particular game.  Having the orcs cast spells, resurrect the dead (both orc and human), create portals and summon demons would have been fun, but would not have been a good fit.  This is not Dungeons and Dragons.  These are characters I will be using for unrelated, but similar games.

I'm enjoying playing a grunt.  Particularly a grunt taking part in seizing all sorts of sexy human females from all locales and levels of society, stripping them of their dignity, and putting them in their proper place.  Generic orc grunts turning unique human civilian women into generic human slave females.  There is an odd sense of freedom when you are limited in what you can do.

[Aejlahael]

I am not actually that interested in magic or power, merely distinctiveness. My issue was this:

1) Orcs villains are, by definition, one-dimensional. If they cease to be one-dimensional, it actually becomes morally problematic to exterminate them. This goes for all faceless mooks in all settings. It's lampshaded in a variety of comedies.

2) Orcs, however, are even worse off than normal faceless mooks because they're defined as being violent-on-top-of-violent. The absolute worst, most cliched, least interesting, violent PCs I have ever seen still have more characterization than an orc. And newly-created orcs -- as here, as in Tolkien, as in a couple of other genres -- are defined by that facelessness. Pull back from aggression, one can question "orcness." Pull back from brutality, one can question "orcness." Add in any feature that distracts from those two qualities, one can question "orcness." You can be bigger or smaller than normal, but after that it's dangerous territory. That's more similarity than some clones in fiction and twins irl. I have been in half a dozen discussions in my life about whether such creatures can even be considered sentient! That's a severe level of homogeneity; it's more strict than Warhammer 40k orcs, and those guys are fast-grown straight into adulthood from fungus.

3) That means that any orc distinction -- not just magic or religion -- can be shot down. Indeed, it really doesn't make any sense to shoot those down (or, alternatively, it doesn't make any sense not to shoot anything down). Anybody can pray. Magic's rules vary from genre to genre, obviously, but no matter what the genre, magic's just a tech (save for when it is wholly capricious -- in which case there are no wizards at all).

I get that there are appropriate restrictions on gender and experience due to the nature of conversion, but after that, picking characteristics becomes mother-may-I and can't be anticipated. Whether or not point (2) is violated is arbitrary for each characteristic. That's great for making NPCs, but I find it more than questionable for PCs.

That said, there are plenty comfortable with this process. I wish all the best and hope you enjoy the game!

[Haibane]

"The absolute worst, most cliched, least interesting, violent PCs I have ever seen still have more characterization than an orc."

You must have role-played with some terribly unimaginative people to truly think this or you're exaggerating to make a point. You only have to read some of our game posts to discover the nonesense in what you write. Indirectly it's insulting to our players who have created some extremely interesting orc characters. I'm playing a human character but if I were playing an orc I'd find this opinion objectionable.

"Orcs ... are even worse off ... because they're defined as being violent-on-top-of-violent."

Why is this a disadvantage in role-playing? I fail to see your point as to why a hyper violent orc soldier limits a person's role-playing opportunities, even in a soldier whose mind only has memories of the last 4 to 6 years. Role-playing inside such a tight box of parameters in my view brings out the best in writers because they strive harder to create interesting individuals.

This is a simple RP designed around one key premise aimed at some kinky fun. There's no need to disassemble the psychology or morals of fantasy gaming here (Is there such a thing as a moral approach in fantasy gaming? That sounds dangerously pompous to me). You are over-thinking this; its a straightforward setting that you'll either enjoy or not, but don't insult our players by suggesting that their violent orcs are not well crafted and well-written based purely on your own experiences. If you were to join this game, those experiences would widen and you'd change your mind.

If you find that a group game isn't to your taste then just move on, there's no need to attack what others enjoy doing.

[RedEve]

1. It is stated in the very beginning of this topic that this is meant to be a very basic and simple setting.

2. I do not see what adding additional layers of complexity to the Orcs would really add to this game, when it almost solely revolves around the Orcs razing a city and submitting its women to (sexual) slavery.

[ManofDawnLight]

Well I hopefully made a more battle-worthy Orc and pm'ed it to you for approval.  I like the game and it's original idea.  Please let me play, too.  :D

[CopperLily]

*sneaks in quietly* Is there any call for another hapless female victim in this game?

[ManofDawnLight]

I sure hope there's no cap on that.  :D

[Strangefate]

I'm not one of the GMs, but I'm pretty confident they'll say 'yes' CopperLily.  The game continues to get new players (for both groups, orcs and ladies) and hasn't really gotten that far along IC yet.

[RedEve]

Send me a CS for review.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I may be late to join the discussion but I mention my own piece about Aejlahael's opinions;

1) That's true in general and I as GM will make orcs one dimensional for my players (and especially for relief for any paladins among them) to make them quite simple minded. But if I have bigger plot or longer campaign involving orcs I make orcs more complex and have goals and desires which fit for 'orcish' mind set.

2) Orcs can be over the top violent grunts and still be unique; example my orc char has fancying into noble's and merchants clothes and albeit they are darn impractical for scouting he still wears them (and bling enough impress anyone) and he prefers use a bow over melee. The orcs were made from elven warriors, so thus they can be little more diverse than typical orc in their combat approach but it does not change that they are bloodthirsty lot and horny. My char even thinks consider run human slave breeding farm if things would settle down bit.

3) I answered this on part 2 already, you can be distinctive both in manner of speech, behavior and personality while remember 'basics' what all orcs share in given setting.

[Aejlahael]

2. I do not see what adding additional layers of complexity to the Orcs would really add to this game, when it almost solely revolves around the Orcs razing a city and submitting its women to (sexual) slavery.

Again, the issue had nothing to do with mere complexity and everything to do with distinctiveness (with a side-order of player agency).

"The absolute worst, most cliched, least interesting, violent PCs I have ever seen still have more characterization than an orc."

You must have role-played with some terribly unimaginative people to truly think this or you're exaggerating to make a point.

That's the exact opposite of the point I was making. Any lack of imagination of a player (or deliberate refusal to employ such imagination) would not allow for the lack of characterization attributed to typical orcs. With respect, you have it completely backwards.

Indirectly it's insulting to our players who have created some extremely interesting orc characters.

If so, and with respect, you have gotten me completely wrong. I must say that if you have taken offense at that it is a misreading of what I wrote, since I did point out that the problem was that the lack of distinctiveness was a problem of orcness and the the strictures herein, not a problem in and of itself with the players.

I'm playing a human character but if I were playing an orc I'd find this opinion objectionable.

With respect, because I did not say the thing you just accused me of saying, I submit that this hypothetical objection is undeserved. Why create insult where there is none there, where there is none possible, with someone who explicitly says no insult is intended?

"Orcs ... are even worse off ... because they're defined as being violent-on-top-of-violent."

Why is this a disadvantage in role-playing?

It isn't: it's a problem with character creation, as I described above. Again, I think there was some miscommunication there.

Possible Digression

Is there such a thing as a moral approach in fantasy gaming? That sounds dangerously pompous to me.

And that suggestion, with respect, sounds dangerously arrogant to me, though I am certain it was not intended as such. People have been discussing morals in fantasy since there was fantasy. Tolkien had severe regrets about the racism implicit in LotR. Seriously. Considering his WWII experiences informed his work, that makes a whole lot of sense. The alignment system of D&D that everyone loves to (rightly) hate? That was an attempt to codify morality within a fantasy world (while establishing team jerseys; it was way better at the latter than the former). Morals in fantasy are as blasé an issue as food in fantasy or horses in fantasy or swords in fantasy. It's not particularly pretentious or interesting to discuss them in and of themselves, but singling them out as such is hardly kosher, to say the least. And when you have talking animals and semi-sentient beings running about, morals come up. It's kinda a dick-move to say "you can't talk about that" since it's just another game-world element. And people talk about Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil and all that crap a LOT more than they talk about orc sex, so if anything was pretentious, it would probably be the latter, but now I'm digressing in a digression. %-)

. . . don't insult our players by suggesting that their violent orcs are not well crafted and well-written based purely on your own experiences.

Within a few sentences, you've gone from suggesting the possibility of insult (sans evidence) to declaring such exists. Again, I intended and offered no insult to the players. I was concerned with the interpretation of the strictures on character creation. My posts have attempted as much courtesy as I can manage, and the sentence quoted above is not, in my eyes, consisted with that.

If you find that a group game isn't to your taste then just move on, there's no need to attack what others enjoy doing.

Again, I don't think I earned this level of prickliness. No attacks were offered. I was clear that I was happy that people were enjoying the game. If you take this as a personal insult, I have to say simply that you're just wrong (and I'm really confused as to how that happens), but I would be happy to address that with PMs. I only posted again because of how thoroughly some of the above quoted material got me wrong; I am hesitant to belabor the point further here. So, once again: PM me if there was any misreading and I hope all enjoy the game.

[Kristen]

Meee-...ow!

- Kristen -

[RedEve]

snip

Aejlahael, I would kindly ask you not to post in here any more if your contributions are not directly linked to the game (especially if you have no intention of joining it).
If you want to discuss any affront with me or Haibane, do it in PMs.

Thanks.

[JK]

I'd love to fill the role of another orky raider if you're still female heavy. I wont worry too much about backstory or standing out, so if theres a useful role you need filled let me know, otherwise Im happy to be another rank-and-file greenskin. Thanks!

[insaneplots]

despite the ever annoying person picking arguments about the game above. Personally hate the game killing people that has to point out flaws of a game rather then tactfully say to themselves 'not one I would like as it is portrayed' and move on. It actually was one of these that killed a ZOMPOC game I was interested in Cause it wasn't realistic enough for him.


Any more room for an Orc?

[Strangefate]

New characters of both types are still entering the game so I'm sure you'd be welcome.

[Max]

Think we could use some more Orcs.

[insaneplots]

ok i sent a question to redeve though after some back reading again i think i have an answer. I'm a guessing orcs no getty the magics despite being elves before rebirth, NP back up character concept a-go. Just losing a minor corruption by magic concept i was hoping for.

[Max]

I think they lose whatever magic they had when they are transformed, but don't quote me on that.  :)

[insaneplots]

Eh I have two other concepts rattling around in my brain. One is somewhat humourous (Big hulking Orc Battle Chef with an unusual taste for finer cooking and a massive skillet for bashing) the other just plain brutal like (Scrawny orc dervish).

Sending both for review.