Murder-less Meat- Lab Proteins

Started by Beauty Rapax, May 19, 2011, 04:23:06 PM

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Beauty Rapax

 I'd like you guys to weigh in on this:
  http://www.npr.org/2011/05/18/136402034/burgers-from-a-lab-the-world-of-in-vitro-meat?sc=fb&cc=fp

If you don't have time to listen to the podcast, though it's pretty awesome, the article underneath covers the basic premise.

"Artificial piece of meat twitching in a petri dish." Is one of my favorite quotes from the pod cast. And by favorite I mean balls creepy. And although I do find the entire process a little disconcerting it's most likely going to be not only viable but vital for our expanding appetites and population. While no animal will be harmed in the process the product will indeed be real edible tissue. How does this change our definition of what food is? What about vegetarians who swore off food with a face due to cruelty? Is there anyone here who would eat bacon if it didn't suffer?

Scribbles

Is anyone else seeing a "meat monster" in the future?
AA and OO
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Callie Del Noire

I'm more worried about the actual 'healthiness' of it. Frankenfood worries a a real deal, it took nature MILLIONS of years to work our biochemistry into a system that works. What might we miss if we jump on this too soon? The idea of a 'vat meat' substitute that can help ease hunger and all that is good, but it needs to be researched and worked through first.

Beauty Rapax

Quote from: Scribbles on May 19, 2011, 04:25:43 PM
Is anyone else seeing a "meat monster" in the future?

Maybe the CDC's Zombie Preparedness Blog had better timing than we suspect? ^.^

Beauty Rapax

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on May 19, 2011, 04:33:09 PM
I'm more worried about the actual 'healthiness' of it. Frankenfood worries a a real deal, it took nature MILLIONS of years to work our biochemistry into a system that works. What might we miss if we jump on this too soon? The idea of a 'vat meat' substitute that can help ease hunger and all that is good, but it needs to be researched and worked through first.

They seem to be skipping the middle man and just growing it the same way they grow artificial tissues for medical use. It's technically grown like it would in an animal, sans pain receptors and such. But yeah, I wonder if the meat will effect us differently if it's not grown in a boddy with hormones and such.

Scribbles

Callie, good question, who is to say it doesn't stop growing in some manner while inside us?

Quote from: Beauty Rapax on May 19, 2011, 04:33:17 PM
Maybe the CDC's Zombie Preparedness Blog had better timing than we suspect? ^.^

So true! And they scoffed when so many of us warned that meat-monsters would come before the Zombie Apocalypse.  :P
AA and OO
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Trieste

I'm personally fine with eating the products of our agricultural advances, whether it be animal, vegetable or mineral. I personally find the idea of 'food with a face' vegetarianism a wee bit goofy, but as long as someone doesn't hiss at me for eating my grilled chicken, we're good.

It's honestly a mutual respect sort of "Don't call me a barbarous carnivore and I won't call you an oversensitive ninny" kind of thing.

However, the sustainability potential for this is pretty awesome. That, I can support wholeheartedly.

Noelle

I really like the implications this has on ethical vegetarians/vegans. Something tells me many of them would likely still protest on principle and there is always the issue of those who really don't like the taste/texture/what-have-you of animal flesh or won't due to health reasons and so forth, but I doubt this is going to be game-changing for the meat industry. The way I see it, they need to make sure that A) the two products are virtually identical in most/all tangible aspects (people already claim they can tell the difference between organic produce and commercial, though it hardly gets more organic than growing meat from natural animal cells) and B) they can streamline the method to produce lab-grown meat products in order to keep it competitive economically. There's no real benefits to be reaped by the world at large if it takes them $5,000 to grow enough to make a hamburger.

Still, this could have really great benefits in the future, especially when global food scarcity is always a lingering concern.

QuoteCallie, good question, who is to say it doesn't stop growing in some manner while inside us?

Probably that part where we effectively destroy cooked animal tissue with our teeth, break down the starches and fats with our saliva, and then send it to a certain death in one of the most potent and corrosive substances known to man in a pool of our own highly acidic stomach juices, amongst other things. Anything that can survive that much probably deserves to live inside me!

NotoriusBEN

my only thing with this is that it will probably taste incredibly bland.
meat by itself has little flavor. You need the fat and I dont know how you'd induce fat into the vat-meat to make it palatible.
I love meat... its delicious. To quote a comic, "One of the greatest miracles of nature is that a pig can turn an apple into bacon."


*****
And that's what I hate about a lot of vegetarians, Trieste. They feel the need to push their diet and choices on me.


Scribbles

Quote from: Noelle on May 19, 2011, 04:43:58 PM
Probably that part where we effectively destroy cooked animal tissue with our teeth, break down the starches and fats with our saliva, and then send it to a certain death in one of the most potent and corrosive substances known to man in a pool of our own highly acidic stomach juices, amongst other things. Anything that can survive that much probably deserves to live inside me!

I love cheesy horror films!

Silliness aside, all that'd matter to me is the content and whether or not it tastes good. I'm not really a fan of meat in general though...
AA and OO
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Trieste

Without getting too far off-topic, it's what a lot of people strongly dislike about your run-of-the-mill vegetarian. If more vegetarians grasped that many meat-eaters don't want to be preached at any more than most atheists do, they would find themselves a little more respected and a little less lumped in with your average Jehovah's Witness.

Quote from: Scribbles on May 19, 2011, 04:51:10 PM
Silliness aside, all that'd matter to me is the content and whether or not it tastes good. I'm not really a fan of meat in general though...

I eat very little of it. If I eat more than, say, an ounce or two of meat, I get super sleepy. It's like my body is going "MUST. DIGEST. AMINO ACIDS." to the exclusion of all else, including staying awake.

Jefepato

I imagine this will become standard some day in the distant future, but I don't know if I could tolerate meat that never felt pain.  The flavor is the suffering.*

*This is a joke.  I am not actually a sadist.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: NotoriusBEN on May 19, 2011, 04:47:39 PM
*****
And that's what I hate about a lot of vegetarians, Trieste. They feel the need to push their diet and choices on me.

Well the thing is, unless you are really committed and know where to look it's HARD to do a good vegetarian diet. You have to replace a lot of proteins that are just simply easier to get from meat than vegies. I recall one vegan family having absolute FITS trying to get what they considered healthy for a child and staying pure vegan. It's damn near impossible but they were doing everything they could to do it. (they were my neighbors in Maine).

I think they went Octo-whatever Vegitarian. Some chicken/cheese/milk and such. The wife was a nice lady who drove me nuts cooking cookies all the time. :D Nice folks, not as preachy as some I met in Maine.

Noelle

Diet is practically the new religion. I was almost fully vegetarian for awhile pretty much just for health reasons and told my friends and family they could all eat three steaks for every one I passed up. I still don't eat a lot of meat in general, but can't seem to convey to people effectively that it's only beef that I don't eat.

FUNNY DIALOGUE:
(based on a true story)

"...So will you eat this pulled pork sandwich?"
"...Yes, it's beef that I don't eat."
"What about chicken?"
"...Yep, still eat it. It's just beef."
"Seafood?"
"Beef."
"...So do you still like mashed potatoes?"
"...What?!"
"I'm just asking!"

More on-topic, however, I'd take up eating beef again if just to try a lab-grown steak :D Curiosity would get the better of me, for sure.

Callie Del Noire

I know one guy who tried it on the boat. (Carrier)

Poor guy nearly went NUTS trying to stick to it. You've not lived till you've suffered through some of the stuff the Navy inflicts on you (Anyone else here ever seen a box of meat with the stamp 'Rejected by the State of Nevada Department of Prisons' on it?) I listen to guys complain that the 'Navy has the best food' and laugh. Hard. Long.

And hope they are still thinking about back in the 40s..cause if the stuff I ate on cruise was the best there was in the Service I'm scared.

Of course to this day I won't eat fried chicken at just anywhere because of my first cruise.

So I don't give folks a lot of flack about their choices if they don't give me flack about mine. Now when you try to ban mine choices? That's another thing. :D

I'm still looking for MY version of a PETA sticker of course (People Eating Tasty Animals)

Scribbles

Quote from: Trieste on May 19, 2011, 04:53:15 PM
I eat very little of it. If I eat more than, say, an ounce or two of meat, I get super sleepy. It's like my body is going "MUST. DIGEST. AMINO ACIDS." to the exclusion of all else, including staying awake.

*Giggles* You have a very demanding body.  :P

I become more queasy than sleepy, even if I really enjoyed it.
AA and OO
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Jude

Heard about this awhile back on the science blogs/podcasts I review, I'm surprised NPR is just now reporting on it.  The technology isn't anywhere near close to usable, and chances are that for the energy that goes into creating this meat it will always be more efficiency to simply raise the animal in most circumstances (one benefit however is that livestock is a big contributor to carbon emissions).

From what I heard the way this is most likely to be used is in space exploration in the future, since raising livestock on ships isn't... well, at all viable.

Oniya

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on May 19, 2011, 04:58:14 PM
Well the thing is, unless you are really committed and know where to look it's HARD to do a good vegetarian diet. You have to replace a lot of proteins that are just simply easier to get from meat than vegies. I recall one vegan family having absolute FITS trying to get what they considered healthy for a child and staying pure vegan. It's damn near impossible but they were doing everything they could to do it. (they were my neighbors in Maine).

I think they went Octo-whatever Vegitarian. Some chicken/cheese/milk and such. The wife was a nice lady who drove me nuts cooking cookies all the time. :D Nice folks, not as preachy as some I met in Maine.

I think you mean ovolacto (meaning they ate eggs and dairy)  Chicken isn't usually included, though...  One of my sisters doesn't eat red meat, but that's for cholesterol and stuff.  Any white meat, she's fine with.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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consortium11

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on May 19, 2011, 04:58:14 PM
Well the thing is, unless you are really committed and know where to look it's HARD to do a good vegetarian diet. You have to replace a lot of proteins that are just simply easier to get from meat than vegies. I recall one vegan family having absolute FITS trying to get what they considered healthy for a child and staying pure vegan. It's damn near impossible but they were doing everything they could to do it. (they were my neighbors in Maine).

I think they went Octo-whatever Vegitarian. Some chicken/cheese/milk and such. The wife was a nice lady who drove me nuts cooking cookies all the time. :D Nice folks, not as preachy as some I met in Maine.

The main issues with nutrition as a vegetarian (or more particularly a vegan) are the essential amino acids and vitamin B12. For a standard vegetarian it's not that difficult to get the amino's, dairy products can do that, but for a vegan you're essentially restricted to either lupin, soy, hempseed, chia seed, amaranth, buckwheat, and quinoa (which each provide a complete protein) or having to combine multiple different ingredients each of which contain incomplete protein... which adds to the effort and cost... and you have to consume a pretty large amount of any of the given items to get the same results as eating meat or dairy. Difficult but not impossible

Vitamin B12 is a bigger concern. B12 aids with the normal functioning of the brain and nervous system and the formation of blood with a deficiency in it having several very harmful side effects. It also only comes from animal products, so again if someone consumes dairy they should be ok but vegans really should use supplements to get their intake up.

Noelle

That's one reason I started eating more meat again...I went through a bout where my body just kind of felt 'off' (didn't/don't have health insurance, so I couldn't go to the doctor to get bloodwork done or anything) and I was concerned that I wasn't getting sufficient nutrition from my vegetarian diet. I'm too lazy to pay attention to taking supplements or adding quinoa or anything, so I kinda just said fuckit and started eating meat more routinely rather than as a once-a-month "oh yeah, you exist" kind of thing.

Xajow

Quote from: Beauty Rapax on May 19, 2011, 04:23:06 PM
Is there anyone here who would eat bacon if it didn't suffer?
If it smells and tastes like bacon, and essentially is bacon, then why wouldn't I eat it? What would be the objection?
“It’s not just your body I want,” he said plainly. “I want your heart and mind as well. And each time I do this, you become mine a little more.” As he raised his hand to spank her again, she whimpered and said softly “Thank you, Master.”

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Malefique

I never had a problem with eating meat - I like the taste.  In fact I love it.  Threw a major angry when I found out some supermarkets were selling halal killed meat without labels here in the UK, partly because I object to having someone else's religious mumbo-jumbo foisted on me against my will (I'd have been equally angry if the culprits had been Christians reciting prayers over my sunday roast) but mainly because of the cruelty.  I live down the road from an abattoir and a lot of local people work there, not to mention almost all of us buy our meat from the shop attached to it.  We can see and hear what goes on without much effort, and my food doesn't suffer.  But I do get the shivers over this artifical protein business - just reminds me too much of a Sapphire and Steel story where time travellers from the future, a bunch of self-righteous veggies, turn out to have vat-grown composite lifeforms powering their time machine.  I am like everyone else, I don't care what people do or don't eat as long as they don't preach to me (okay, perhaps I draw the line at hunting people for me before the apocalypse or the plane crash); so I admit I have been giggling a bit, sick as that might be, over the recent e-coli outbreak in salads.  My veggie friend who told me meat was poisonous and you couldn't get food poisoning from vegetables, where are you now?  Sooo quiet. 
Everything is true.  God's an astronaut.  Oz is over the rainbow, and Midian is where the monsters live.

Oniya

Actually, Halal and kosher meats are both killed by a deep slash across the major neck vessels.  The brain stops receiving blood immediately, the animal is unconscious within seconds (lack of oxygen to the brain) and bleeds out rapidly.  As killing methods go, it's probably on the more humane side of things.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Serephino

I could practically be considered a carnivore.  I need animal based protein; get kinda sick if I go too long without it.  There's no way in hell I could be a vegetarian.  I don't really like veggie protein sources.  Though lately because of my health problems I've been trying to make my diet more balanced. 

I may not like the way most slaughter houses operate, but I'm not too sure about this lab-grown stuff.  I think there are some things science shouldn't mess with.  I guess if other people don't mind it, more power to them, but I'd rather stick to the way things should be.       

Xajow

That reminds me of an essay (I think) I read back years ago. Well, I say it reminds me of the essay, it reminds me of part of it. I don't remember the whole thing.

Anyway, in the essay the author talked about feeding guest sandwiches with armadillo meat, and then asking how they liked it. They all liked it fine until the author told them it was armadillo meat, at which point the guests would go vomit in the bathroom. Which I thought was funny, but I didn't understand it. But then, I grew up in south Louisiana where anything made of meat, except humans of course, was possible dinner food. I even once had mushrooms stuffed with gator meat at a wedding reception.

I guess I don't see the problem with artificially created meat. Can someone explain why it is somehow not the way things should be? I mean, that implies it is the way things should not be. I don't know why that would be the case.
“It’s not just your body I want,” he said plainly. “I want your heart and mind as well. And each time I do this, you become mine a little more.” As he raised his hand to spank her again, she whimpered and said softly “Thank you, Master.”

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Oniya

I think I could handle armadillo.  Gator sounds interesting too, and I've never lived further south than Virginia.  I've had eel and catfish, which my mother can't stand, and stories of 'northerners' getting squicked out by crawfish make me giggle.  I could probably handle 'lab meat' if it came down to it, but having seen what overpopulation does to deer - I'd rather eat venison and do my part as an omnivore.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
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Xajow

Quote from: Oniya on June 03, 2011, 10:24:37 PM
having seen what overpopulation does to deer - I'd rather eat venison and do my part as an omnivore.
Heh. Good point.
“It’s not just your body I want,” he said plainly. “I want your heart and mind as well. And each time I do this, you become mine a little more.” As he raised his hand to spank her again, she whimpered and said softly “Thank you, Master.”

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Trieste

The attitude that anything made by man is unnatural and dangerous is a fallacy. Men are not some alien thing thrust upon the earth a few thousand years ago. Humans, as a race, evolved through a process as natural as, I dunno, growing a flower. While we have an amazing effect on the world around us, saying that humans and the creations of humans aren't natural is... well, look at it this way: In Elliquiy U, there is an article about a kid who discovered a way for two chemicals to interact to treat the 'natural' occurrence of cystic fibrosis. He would be using chemical injections to alter the natural state of someone's body. It's all in how it's used.

Man-made things are not all bad. We consume synthetic, man-made products a lot. I was helping a friend research vitamin D supplements the other day and came across the fact that we synthesize the most active form of it; this form is beneficial to people whose liver and kidneys can't process the form of the vitamin made in our skin. We synthesize growth hormone for humans and for our food. We eat it when we eat meat. Anyone who is on an antidepressant is most likely eating synthesized hormones. These things help and harm us, but it's dependent on how they are used; they are not inherently bad.

Quote from: Serephino on June 03, 2011, 04:06:45 PM
I think there are some things science shouldn't mess with.


I agree with you. There are some things science shouldn't mess with: the things that are working well for us. Science is there as a tool to solve problems that are both out of our control and of our own making. Conversely, there are things that science very much should mess with, in an effort to find solutions to things that will be a hefty problem now or in the future.

Given the environmental impact of the cattle industry alone, "I don't want this fake meat! I want REAL MEAT!" could prove to be a harmful bias in a few decades. Soylent green makes for good sci-fi novels, sure, but it doesn't make it reality. I'm not saying that innovations such as this shouldn't be tested and declared safe. What I am saying is that, if they are tested and declared safe, it probably won't matter because of provincial attitudes about how 'unnatural' it is. I have colleagues who have thrown themselves into developing solutions to the energy crisis and other impacts of overpopulation, whose hard work and dedication could easily be written off as "that's not natural". It's a significant frustration.

ReanimateMagnus

Doesn't the bible say that God gave us the animals to eat?

Will

Clearly he didn't give us enough of them.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

ReanimateMagnus

Quote from: Will on June 06, 2011, 05:15:37 PM
Clearly he didn't give us enough of them.

Clearly we have too many humans to feed.

Caeli

That, or we could eat less meat.

Either way, I'm interested in seeing if scientists can make this an affordable option in the future.
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Zakharra

Quote from: Caeli on June 07, 2011, 01:40:41 PM
That, or we could eat less meat.


Heretic! 



Joking of course, but I like meat. A lot, so I'm unlikely to stop eating it.

Will

I'm not likely to stop either, but cutting down would do everyone a lot of good.  Meat is a horribly inefficient food source.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Zakharra

  Uum.. not rteally. It's a very efficient package of protin* Back before agriculture, meat was about the best way to get food. not to mention the animals hides, bones and orgams provided much needed materials for clothes, weapons and stuff needed to live.

Now in this more modern age, it can be inefficient to a degree to grow and raise, but unless you start killing and locking up meat producers, it's never going to go away.




*it looks wrong, but pased the spellcheck. Huh.

Will

Quote from: Zakharra on June 08, 2011, 12:06:27 PM
  Uum.. not rteally. It's a very efficient package of protin* Back before agriculture, meat was about the best way to get food. not to mention the animals hides, bones and orgams provided much needed materials for clothes, weapons and stuff needed to live.

Now in this more modern age, it can be inefficient to a degree to grow and raise, but unless you start killing and locking up meat producers, it's never going to go away.

This is what I was referring to.  And there is no "can" about it; it's downright wasteful, considering how much grain could be grown with the same space and resources, and how many people that grain could feed.

Whether it's going away or not has no bearing on how efficient it is.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Zakharra

Quote from: Will on June 08, 2011, 12:19:23 PM
This is what I was referring to.  And there is no "can" about it; it's downright wasteful, considering how much grain could be grown with the same space and resources, and how many people that grain could feed.

Whether it's going away or not has no bearing on how efficient it is.

So is mass growing food crops. It's destructive to the land and requires a LOT of work to do. Chemicals andartificial fertilizers and machines to do. Then there's transportation, processing and distribution. The fgact the odiots in the government insist that ethenol be a part of the fuel supply isn't helping either. Now even more corn is grown and used as fuel and less for food.   You also need to use more vegetables in order to get the complete ptorins that is more easily gotten from meat.

Will

#37
Nowhere did I say that I expected people to stop eating meat altogether.  So why is getting proteins a problem?  I'm just saying, it's far too big a part of our diet.  We get way, way, WAY more proteins than is necessary.  Eating a few less hamburgers now and then wouldn't leave us hurting for nutrients.

And just because the alternative is somewhat destructive as well doesn't change the fact that raising livestock is an expensive process that results in rather little food.  Obviously any type of agriculture has its effects on the land that is used; it's the productivity that differs here, and quite drastically at that.

And ethanol is a ridiculous idea.  I'm not arguing that.  It also does nothing to make raising cows more cost effective, so I'm not sure what your point is.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Trieste

Meat is currently the most readily-available protein to people and it contains all of the essential amino acids that we require (this is what is meant when you hear something referred to as a 'whole protein' or a 'complete protein'). But it is not the most efficient source we could cultivate. Things like soy and quinoa would be much better for the land that we currently use to raise animals, and the risk of diseases and infections are much lower with non-animal sources.

Biochemically, protein is not the most efficient way to store energy. Fat is. And biochemically, plant protein is not a whole lot different than animal protein; they both contain the same amino acids, and we can derive the same products from them.

So with regards to the use of land and efficiency there, plant-based protein is actually more efficient.

If you want to talk about transport, both meat and veggies get transported around the country quite a lot. I'm not a logistics expert, so you'll have to do your own research and come to your own conclusions, but musing on it just now I think that probably meat is less efficient to ship and store than vegetables. Vegetables don't necessarily have to be refrigerated the whole way, and meats do. Vegetables can be frozen at the point of harvest, arresting the process of decay, while meat producers put "Fresh! Never frozen!" on their meats as a badge of honor. A handfull of meat is heavier than a handfull of vegetables, so a truckfull of meat will weigh more than a truckfull of veggies, and therefore take more gas to transport.

Overall, I believe that Will is probably right: plant-based proteins are a good deal more efficient than animal-based proteins, and therefore probably more beneficial in the long run to our overtaxed planet.

Zakharra

 A ton of meat weighs just as much as a ton of veggies. Trucks and trains can carry only so much and get slapped with fines for being overloaded, so the weight isn't an issue in transporation.

A part of the problem is a lot, and mean A LOT of peoplke like/love the taste of meat. Beef, pork, goat, mutton, chicken, other poultry and seafoods. Unless you're going to outlaw the eating of meat and enforce it with violence, you're never goign to get people to stop eating it.

And frankly it's easier to just murder a few dozen million people in a war than to get legislation like that passed. For my part, I'll stop eating meat when I die. I love it, but I do like other foods. Veggies, pasta, fruits. Meat, for me is part of a balanced diet and  it is a lot easier and cheaper to get than a full vegetarian diet (and a hell of a lot tastier too)

Will

Again, with the "stop eating meat" thing. -_-
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Caeli

Like Will's already mentioned, nobody is advocating no meat at all. I was simply suggesting offhand that it wouldn't kill anyone to reduce the amount of meat they eat for the sake of environmental sustainability.
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Noelle

Quote from: Zakharra on June 08, 2011, 03:18:11 PM
A ton of meat weighs just as much as a ton of veggies. Trucks and trains can carry only so much and get slapped with fines for being overloaded, so the weight isn't an issue in transporation.

That's assuming they both take up the same amount of space. You only have so much real estate to work with inside a truck trailer. You can stuff more bags of frozen peas in a given amount of space than you can steak. One ton of steak isn't necessarily going to feed the same amount of people as one ton of frozen peas.

Truthfully, if I had to weigh in on solutions, it would not be to outlaw meat all together, but to encourage people to eat significantly less meat, especially because we already consume waaay too much as it is. Omnivores treat vegetarian fare as if you have to sign your soul away to be able to consume it. This isn't the body of Christ for which you need to be baptized and confirmed, people, these are fruits, vegetables, grains, and dairy if you're not vegan. You're missing exactly one food group for the duration of a meal, nobody's forcing you to eat it all the time. Hell, you might even like it!

Myself, I am what I affectionately call a 'cheatertarian'. I was born and raised in the red-blooded, meat-ravishing Midwest and never thought I'd be able to survive as a vegetarian. I went full veggie for awhile, got lazy about it and still don't eat beef and I hate most seafood, but I eat very limited amounts of chicken and pork when it strikes my fancy, which is to say, every now and then. I know how to make good meals without use of animal protein, but I'm not about to mope and complain to others that I'm craving chicken nuggets but "can't" have any. Of course I can, I'm an adult and I can choose! It's a free country, just try and stop me, bitches!

Zakharra

Quote from: Caeli on June 08, 2011, 04:58:57 PM
Like Will's already mentioned, nobody is advocating no meat at all. I was simply suggesting offhand that it wouldn't kill anyone to reduce the amount of meat they eat for the sake of environmental sustainability.

The problem is it wouldn't stop with that. Encouraging is all and good, but there are people who would do more than that. Tougher regulations on meat products, farms that produce meat and try to introduct laws that 'encourage' people to eat less meat 'for our own good'.

I didn't intend to imply that anyone here might do that, and if I did, I apoligize. However I can see politicans dong exactly that.

Oniya

Quote from: Noelle on June 08, 2011, 05:07:26 PM
Omnivores treat vegetarian fare as if you have to sign your soul away to be able to consume it. This isn't the body of Christ for which you need to be baptized and confirmed, people, these are fruits, vegetables, grains, and dairy if you're not vegan. You're missing exactly one food group for the duration of a meal, nobody's forcing you to eat it all the time. Hell, you might even like it!

Seriously - some of those Indian dishes with the lentils and all the different spices are very nommy.  Portabello-burgers are good too.  Tofu-burgers, not so much - Tofu does better trying to impersonate egg whites or cheese.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Trieste

I'd personally like to try my hand at making tofu fresh. I've heard that the stuff that comes directly out of the press - still warm and steaming - is a heckuva lot better than the store stuff. I would guess it's sort of in the same vein as the difference between fresh-baked bread and day-old bread bought at a bakery. So at some point I have to see if any of my friends have a tofu press and connections with a soy farmer.

Noelle

Depends on how you make it! I like to press the water out of extra firm tofu, freeze it at least overnight, thaw it, wring out more water, and fry it up like that. It gets a nice, chewy consistency that's comparable to ground beef when it's crumbled and more like a portabello when kept solid.

If you can find soy beans at the store, you can most definitely make your own tofu brick and you can probably MacGuyver a press out of heavy books or summat.

Trieste

They sell frozen edamame at the store near here; I buy it for the rats, who love it. I could build my own press easily enough; I just would like to try the process with someone experienced and who already has the equipment before I go trying to make my own stuff.

Thanks, Noelle!

*stops hijacking*

Lilias

Greek cuisine, on which I grew up, is quite heavy on the pulse dishes (and generally slanting heavily towards the ovolactovegetarian part of the spectrum). Anyone interested in cutting down on meat could get plenty of ideas there. ;)
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To know the dark, go dark. Go without sight,
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TheGlyphstone

Quote from: Caeli on June 08, 2011, 04:58:57 PM
Like Will's already mentioned, nobody is advocating no meat at all. I was simply suggesting offhand that it wouldn't kill anyone to reduce the amount of meat they eat for the sake of environmental sustainability.

Or we could change the meat we eat. If my Big Book of Useless Information is to be believed, kangaroos produce six times the amount of methane than cows do...if we all switch to eating kangaroo-burgers, it'll be great for the environment.

Zakharra

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on June 08, 2011, 07:38:39 PM
Or we could change the meat we eat. If my Big Book of Useless Information is to be believed, kangaroos produce six times the amount of methane than cows do...if we all switch to eating kangaroo-burgers, it'll be great for the environment.


Uuuuuhh..  Isn't methane supposed to be bad? The number of kangaroos needed to replace cattle would mean, by what you say, there'd be even more methane being released in the atmosphere.

Zakharra

Quote from: Noelle on June 08, 2011, 05:07:26 PM
Omnivores treat vegetarian fare as if you have to sign your soul away to be able to consume it. This isn't the body of Christ for which you need to be baptized and confirmed, people, these are fruits, vegetables, grains, and dairy if you're not vegan. You're missing exactly one food group for the duration of a meal, nobody's forcing you to eat it all the time. Hell, you might even like it!

Unfortunately I know enough anti-meat jackasses that want me to stop eating all meat because it's 'bad for you and cruel to the animnals'  Makes me want to go out and shoot one of the goats for dinner just to piss that person off. >_<   

I do not eat meat all the time. Usually I only eat it at dinner.  However too many vegetarians want to stop alal meat from being eaten. That's why I mnght have over-reacted in some of my statements.

Oniya

Quote from: Zakharra on June 09, 2011, 01:19:05 AM

Uuuuuhh..  Isn't methane supposed to be bad? The number of kangaroos needed to replace cattle would mean, by what you say, there'd be even more methane being released in the atmosphere.

Actually, I think he means to eat up the higher methane-producers first, not breed extra ones.  I also suspect a touch of humor in the suggestion.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Lithos

#53
Also, we are all forgetting about the fish here. With right planning, the fisheries around the big oceans could be used far more efficiently than they are right now. Same goes for smaller creatures that are nommy well prepared and contain ton of protein such as Krill (ever wonder how blue whale got to be biggest animal in the world while eating one of the smallest?). Just bringing this up as I love seafood :p

Also, this does not really touch city folk, but I do love both fishing and hunting, and food tastes all that much better when you killed it yourself. If I had to dump what I catch away without eating it, what would be the point?
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Zakharra

Quote from: Oniya on June 09, 2011, 01:50:24 AM
Actually, I think he means to eat up the higher methane-producers first, not breed extra ones.  I also suspect a touch of humor in the suggestion.

Heh.  Probably true, but when we start  using a animal for a meat source, we make sure there's lots of them. And that there will be more for later comsumption.

TheGlyphstone

Well, we can always switch back to cows after the kangaroos are gone. :D

But yeah, it was more for humor than a serious suggestion (plus a way to prove that book wrong and make one of its facts relatively useful)