Kindred of the East (interest check)

[Pumpkin Seeds]

That kind of does fit with what I had envisioned.  Sort of an old world crime boss dealing with young thugs and modern gangsters.  Trying to bring back the honor of the criminal organization.

[Braioch]

Hey, I mean, if pissing off a bunch of old guys living in monasteries made of stones younger than they are is what you want, my internal Devil Tiger applauds you. (Plus, the Cranes could use a little livening up, god that sourcebook was dry as hell to read at times, I still haven't managed to completely read it through)

[Mnemaxa]

While the courts might not be so adaptable, the ST is fairly adaptable, and this was never going to be a traditional wu in the first place.  Which only makes it more interesting that you'll be dealing with the problems you'll be dealing with, essentially, being an unorthodox group dealing with unorthodox problems in the manners of Direction and Dharma that you are trying your best to exemplify. 

You're welcome in Braioch, that shouldn't be a problem. 

That kind of does fit with what I had envisioned.  Sort of an old world crime boss dealing with young thugs and modern gangsters.  Trying to bring back the honor of the criminal organization.

There was definitely a darker side to Wudang that people like to ignore politely, and the tongs, gangs, and cults had quite a bit of honor and control back in their heyday.  It will be an interesting sort of group.

So we have, in no particular order:, with their possible ideas:
VonDoom: Northern Devil Tiger
Pumkin Seeds: Southern Resplendent Crane
Braoich:  Centered Devil Tiger
Riveda:  Thrashing Dragon, or a Bone Shadow of the West or South.
Marie Reynolds:  Crane or Dragon, East

Is this correct?  Nothing is set in stone other than I'll be running it, but I'd like to get a few more important details hammered out.  Since this is going to be a Politics and Spiritualism heavy game (there will be combat, naturally, but it will be far less of the lethal variety than most such games) there is the possibility of a less than Extreme rating for the game.  That means I have to ask:  Where are you people wanting to take the darker aspects of this game?  It is inevitable that your demons are going to get the better of you eventually, and Devil Tigers and Thrashing Dragons are notorious for the levels of violence they can inflict (not that Cranes don't have a hellish reputation - they're just not as overt about it).  So, how dark is dark, and how dark is too dark?  Obviously we're all players/readers of KoE, so it's pretty obvious our tastes at least go in similar directions, but I have to ask the question anyways.

[VonDoom]

EDIT: Crap...didn't see the other Devil Tiger before I ran in full tilt...bugger all, what IS everyone planning on playing? (Besides Pumpkin, who's obviously aiming for the Legalists, bless you by the way, I don't think I could ever manage one personally >_>)

EDIT 2: I'm also vastly amused that pretty much all of the original interested people from last year are the ones still in the discussion currently

I have no problem with another Devil Tiger if the ST doesn't. Always thought 'one of each only' was a bit silly, they're not all cookie cutter characters in a single clan/dharma/tradition/whatevers.

And it's Kindred of the East. Of course you'd have all the original interested people. It's not like we'll ever get any KotE games anywhere else.  :P

And I'm willing to go very dark conceptually. However, I'd like to stay away from pure 'ick' sort of horror. Lasombra>Tzimisce, so to speak. In detailed description, anyway. Describing how they're eating a corpse in a factual fashion is fine because it's KotE. The exact tastes and how the pustules are feeling on the tongue and bla bla bla I don't need.

[Rook Seidhr]

Submitted for your consideration: Meng Meixing, West-facing Bone Flower, formerly a historian linguist of some scholarly renown. I have yet to decide what put her on the Road Back, and I need to pick 4 points' worth of Rites, but otherwise I think she's ready to go.

EDIT: She's a linguist, not a historian—an expert in the Kra and Kam-Sui language groups of Southeast and South-Central China.

[Braioch]

Considering there's gonna be two DTs and possibling a Dragon or two, I suspect that it's going to get fairly dark, even in the background of the story. Thrashing Dragons cuz of their...well their attempts at being unstoppable forces of nature and the Devil Tigers cuz they're trying to be Devils. Center dudes like mine are generally the Demonologists of the DT circles and I plan on running with that, so in place of that comes a lot of dark and twisted shit being done.

So...

[Rook Seidhr]

And I'm willing to go very dark conceptually. However, I'd like to stay away from pure 'ick' sort of horror. Lasombra>Tzimisce, so to speak. In detailed description, anyway. Describing how they're eating a corpse in a factual fashion is fine because it's KotE. The exact tastes and how the pustules are feeling on the tongue and bla bla bla I don't need.

I pretty much agree there.

[Braioch]

I'm still puzzling out my guy bit by bit

(And if anyone wants to use original character sheets go here and you can download the interactive sheets and upload 'em to docs after you're done)

Is the Chronicle or Wu been named?

Oh and Maxa, are any rites or allegiances from the Devil Tiger books off limits?

[Mnemaxa]

Thank you for the character sheet link; if it's all right I'll add that into the OOC post when I'm done with writing up the things you will all need. 

The Chronicle and the Wu have not yet been named. 

Generally seaking it's easier to select specific rites and allegiances first and ask me, otherwise I'd have to go though 5 books worth of material and pick and chose what is and isn't allowed.  Essentially (and this goes for all Kuei), the deal-breakers are:  things that give you a very specific power over others in the Wu they cannot counter in some way, be it political, supernatural, or temporal; things which would get you summarily executed by any sane Ancestor upon discovery (Akuma ties, or allegiances to the Yama Kings, for example); and rites that are specifically designed to utilize such powers or create bonds with such power. 

For instance, it is within the Devil Tiger purview to create monsters (the books use the term bakemono, but the correct term would be yaoguai) so that would be an acceptable power.  A rite which infuses corrupt chi into such a monster would not be allowed.

[VonDoom]

Might I ask you to clarify on the 'power over others' aspect? That could quite literally be anything.

[Braioch]

Hell, the entire Obligation discipline falls into that header

(And bakemono are awesome, also important to a ritualist Devil Tiger)

[Mnemaxa]

Might I ask you to clarify on the 'power over others' aspect? That could quite literally be anything.

The exact words were:  power over others in the Wu they cannot counter in some way.  By this I mean having some hold, power, or control over other members of the Wu that they have no ability to resist at all.  Obligation Discipline and lower levels of Majesty can be resisted, even if it is difficult to do so; higher levels of Majesty preclude resistance and would not be allowed.  So a ritual designed to remove any ability of a Wu member to counter your command to them would be a no-go (and probably very high level).  Note that I did specify Wu members - if a power allows you to do this to someone outside your Wu, it's not an issue (and is in fact expected, if not outright encouraged by the ST).

[VonDoom]

The problem being that most actual powers that do so rather than conventional means like 'having dirt on' and similar ... do not exclude Wu Members. I'm not aware of any power that has a 'does not affect wu members' attached to it. I'm ... not trying to be difficult, but that seems to me like an odd ruling. It would be easier to simply add the often included 'do not use mind control on party members' houserule that spreads over numerous systems and games.

[Braioch]

Plus, considering how the Wan Kuei consider their roles within Wu's, that'd be one helluva a nasty violation and immediately get your ass granted Akuma status.

[Mnemaxa]

It would be easier to simply add the often included 'do not use mind control on party members' houserule that spreads over numerous systems and games.

I understand that ruling, but in KoE that ruling is actually a problem - there are forms of mind control that the players will WANT and might NEED to use on/be used by other players, especially if they enter Shadow Soul.  Demon Taming Arts, for example, are mind control abilities that one might need to unleash upon a fellow Wu member; likewise the power of Obligation can be used to enforce a Crane's discipline on the P'o of an unruly Devil Tiger. 

Since I don't know all the rites and powers by heart, I find it causes less trouble to let people know, if a rite or power cannot be resisted by a member of the Wu, they shouldn't take it.  Having dirt n others or political power over others is fine, as long as it isn't the kind of political power that allows (for example) a person to accuse someone of being akuma and getting them summarily executed by an Ancestor because that Ancestor owes  a massive favor.

The reason this is so important is because under Shadow Soul, a Wu member's demon might just decide to call in such a favor or use that kind of power against the Wu.

[Braioch]

Wait...so like...Cultivation and Obligation are bad or...?

I'm super confused now

[VonDoom]

The problem is that this is particularly confusing:

The exact words were:  power over others in the Wu they cannot counter in some way.  By this I mean having some hold, power, or control over other members of the Wu that they have no ability to resist at all.

Followed by:

Note that I did specify Wu members - if a power allows you to do this to someone outside your Wu, it's not an issue (and is in fact expected, if not outright encouraged by the ST).

I don't think there is a single power that works on Kuei-Jin that this applies to, the only exception being powers that don't allow mortals to resist.

[Braioch]

I don't think there are powers that can't be resisted at all by other supernatural creatures tbh

[VonDoom]

There probably are at least a few. Vampire had a bunch. Without houserules, you couldn't even try to resist Dominate from a lower generation. Our group usually instituted a 'can still resist but may have higher difficulty dependent on relevant factors' (like Generation for Dominate) for that sort of thing.

[Braioch]

Well, I know being a lower Dharma and using the Obligation powers on someone of a higher dharma is ineffectual, but I don't recall a single power that's totally unblockable canonically.

[Mnemaxa]

There were a large number of them in VtM that simply could not be resisted. All of the Kuei Disciplines and Rites in the Core Book and Companion can be resisted by Kuei, so those are fine. I am not absolutely certain that this is the case for the Dharma books, which is why I want them run by me first. If a power says "kuei-jin cannot resist this power except in rare instances" I'm going to say no to it.  I don't think there are any, but I'm not 100% sure.

Obligation is always able to be resisted so there is no issue, even if it works on mortals automatically.

Addendum, Cultivation is also fine for the same reason - it can be resisted. 

[Braioch]

I do believe most of the rites and shit in Devil Tiger is mainly demonological, and I can't say 100% for sure, but I don't believe there's any non-resisted stuff in any of the books. I mean, I know the books well, but I don't know them that well.

[VonDoom]

That reminds me, before I start to adapt the backstory I originally worked up for the concept away from Korea and to China, would you mind giving it a look-over to see if the main points are alright?

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Captain Mizuhara Jin
Alias: 'Daewi'

Background:
Born in 1875, Jin  was the child of Mizuhara Jinsuke, a low wage teacher, and Mizuhara Tamako, a housewife in a small village north of Kyoto. As he grew older, Jin quickly grew unhappy with their rural situation. Despite a good basic education, the lack of money prevented any chances of getting further in an intellectual career. As a result, he joined the military, in hopes of completing his education there and joining their scientific research department.

However, he soon found that his sound mind and determination opened him entirely new options once he had completed basic training, finding the structured and demanding life in the military both refreshing and rewarding -- rather than going with his original plan, he enlisted for officer training.

He took a part in the first excursions by Japan during World War I and was involved in several attacks on German outposts in East Asia. His success eventually earned him a promotion to the rank of Captain and a transfer to a less volatile region. To Korea, where he was to supress remaining resistance against the Japanese annexation and prove his administrative skill, rather than his tactical acumen.

Once there, however, he quickly fell into stagnation. Not even his marriage to a local woman named Su-Min brought any solace. Always a man of strong beliefs and integrity, he despaired over the lows some of his countrymen had fallen to, growing more and more frustrated until he began to dole out harsh punishments far beyond the norm, spiralling down just as much as his fellow soldiers were through a combination of disappointment and loathing, of himself and others.

Eventually, during the March 1st Independence Movement of 1919, when over two million rallied against the Japanese oppressors, Captain Mizuhara fell. Not to the riots, however. He was labelled a victim of the rally, but in actuality one of his subordinates gunned him down during the confusion, successfully getting rid of a hated superior.

The dark aspect of Jin's self found itself in Mikaboshi's Wicked City. It took the p'o some time to disentangle itself from the many technological horrors found there, but it eventually did. He rose as a newly born Wan Kuei, in Seoul.

Since he had had a Korean wife (and, born after his death, a child), his remains had been interred there.  Despite his nationality and station, Jin had always treated the locals with respect, if not kindness, and that had found the same in return: his famous cruelty had been directed solely at his own men, after all.

More a point of curiosity despite his acts as a mortal due to being a foreigner, he was nevertheless considered to have potential and inducted into the Howl of the Devil-Tiger. His time in the Wicked City had had one upside: he didn't need much catching up to modern standards, even if the knowledge comes with horrible trauma.

Personality:
Jin conducts himself as a highly disciplined man, though the time in Yomi Wan and the extensive torture performed upon him to awaken him to his proper self has left its marks. He has exchanged his military uniform for civilian attire, now preferring tailored suits and enjoying a new appreciation of creature comforts, despite his full realisation that they are but a vest to wear: a demon may be wretched, the Searing Wind must be magnificent.

He idly wonders what became of his relatives back in Japan, but has not found the opportunity (or, indeed, proper motivation) to look into things, now that he has become one of the righteous devils. The same goes for his descendants within Seoul -- he has actively avoided looking into them, having no desire to get them involved in Kuei-jin activity. After all, he knows all too well that at some point he'll have to cut his mortal ties, if he wants to complete his Dharma -- literally. He sees no reason to rush into such things or worry at them before the time comes.

Generally, Jin is a practical man of strong moral fiber and as such finds the aspect of punishing sinners the most rewarding -- if he has to become a monster himself to do so, then he had already taken the first steps towards that journey as a mortal. Half-finished things are a sign of weakness.

Edit: It's a fairly old writeup, so I'll probably rephrase quite a bit along with adapting things.

[Mnemaxa]

That's a very good background.  I have no complaints; he would not the first or last Japanese Kuei to take the Second Breath in China. 

Mind you, it will cause some level of friction; old grudges die hard.  Still, the fact that he directed his angers and cruelty towards his own countrymen will work in his favor in some cases. 

I see no problems with it, and he sounds like just the kind of person the Bestowed Ancestor needs in this unusual Wu.

[RubySlippers]

Anyone running an Artist, I was thinking a returned scholar and artisan who tends the mortal world and shuns combat (I have some ideas for this, she will have some combat training but its not her role in their society to sully herself in combat). I'll likely take one of the elevated arts from the region such as Embroidery or Sculpture for example. I'm thinking someone positioned and happy to operate around mortals, whose respected as an artist (its considered a very respected profession) and educated maybe self-educated but educated. And who would support the group along those lines. Well I don't think a diplomatic sort is in the group.